waysider

Hi Walking Lots of really good points in your post. Is it possible for you to put any of your music on youtube and post it on "Music Lovers" or "Guitar Talk"?

Hi, Mike I think what Tom was giving was only intended to be a synopsis. Do you think there is anything in PFAL that might address the sex scandals? BTW----The purpose of this thread was to determine whether Mr. Wierwille ever taught that cancer has a life of its own and whether he ever taught that it is caused by devil possession. I think we pretty well established that he did.

Hi CK You sure have good taste in music.

Experience vs. Words Most people build their belief systems around their personal experiences and use words to give them credence. This is true for all beliefs, not just ones that involve spiritual matters. In TWI, our "experiences" were those times we spent at twig, the branch pot-lucks, the Sunday night services, the grueling boredom of Corps meetings or Fellowlaborer meetings or classes like Keys To Research, etc. The "words", on the other hand, were the actual texts of the classes, the PFAL book, the transcripts and tapes of the Sunday night service, etc. There has to be a healthy balance that is based on reality for it to make any sense. Sometimes we see people who have an inordinate fixation on good "experiences" and they feel they must use "words" to find self- justification. Sometimes we see people who have an inordinate fixation on the "words" who feel they must discount their experiences to try to make sense of it all. The healthiest approach is to look at all the data and be flexible enough to change---and then change again as new information presents itself. That's just my opinion---- but it could change.

Thanks, Vickles As I read it, the thought occurred to me that in The Way, we were expected to be the "same" person regardless of the situation. Kinda like a robot that always performs in a predictable fashion. "Walk The Word"---"The Word is your focus"---"The Word is at stake"----etc. That's not normal and it's not healthy. One of the things I like about GreaseSpot, is the freedom to express a wide variety of opinions; to explore different facets of the personality; to see how another person may view a subject in a completely different light than myself; to see that sometimes the line between right and wrong is a fuzzy one, at best. Thanks for making my old brain see it in written form.

Hi, Nero It's good to see you here. It takes time to unravel all the knots and snarls in our thinking that were conceived and nurtured in TWI. A lot of this stuff has very little to do with doctrines, such as 4 crucified, and lots and lots to do with how we lived on a day to day basis. There are lots of helpful and compassionate people here(and your usual assortment of hard-heads too) Don't be afraid to ask for help. You can always shoot somebody a PM if you don't want to discuss something publicly.

Or he could be saying he prefers Dapper Dan Pomade for his hair care needs.

HeHeHe---- I know this one!

I dunno Is it just me or has anyone else ever noticed that photos of Hitler don't exactly exemplify features of the so-called master race he touted? But, who's to say? Maybe those old black and white photos just don't do justice to the blond hair and blue eyes that would have defined him as the ultimate role model he would logically have been.

Rascal We believed it was true. The people who told us, believed it was true. The people who told them, believed it was true. The people who told the people who told the people, believed it was true. But if you follow the trail far enough back, I think you will find someone who knew it was a scam. Their enticement tactics were deliberate not inadvertent. I was the first member of my family to become involved. I got other members of my family involved That involvement changed their lives, as well as mine, in profoundly permanent ways that are not unique to my family alone. These people who say, "You could have just walked away." have no idea what they are even talking about. If they really believe it was/is that easy, perhaps THEY should just walk away from GSC to prove it since they seem to contend that GSC is wrong.

I stand corrected. I thought this was handled in the last session but apparently that is incorrect as the instructors manual clearly states it is to be handled in the first session. Thanks, WD.

You just might be walking by the five senses if------------ You fail to see the deep spiritual significance of rinsing Mung Bean sprouts. You mistakenly believe that cleaning toilets in the BRC is a disgusting task instead of a golden opportunity for spiritual growth. Forgive me Father, for yea verily, I do loath millet(and liver & onions.) You might be walking by the five senses if you find yourself asking, "Why the heck do we say Yea verily so much?"

Sorry---Double post

Sadly, I think that is what some of the posters here HAVE been saying. It's a bit like saying, "Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer ate people, but it is partially their own fault for looking so darned appetizing." What he did was criminal and intentional. It makes me sick to think that somehow, something I might have done, might have unwittingly contributed to this lunacy.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to post that, WD. My memory on the details was foggy but now I know I didn't imagine it. I still think there is enough material in the numbered section and the written section to make comparisons. They knew who was in each class, where and when it was run, etc. They also had handwritten "home studies" as they were required for admittance to the Advanced Class. What did they use these for? Surely they were not participating in some sort of valid scientific study. Unless I'm missing something, I can't see what beneficial purpose these surveys might have served.

Geeze, What The Hey Did the teeth exist or didn't they? It just doesn't seem like such a tough question to answer.

This brings up an interesting point. When I was running CF&S classes in the mid '70s, there was a questionnaire that was passed out at the last session. I don't know how often it was used with classes because when I brought this up before, not many seemed to remember it. It was voluntary and anonymous (if one so desired.) It was hand written, so logic will tell you that comparisons could possibly be made with Corps papers. There were several very "off-beat" questions in the mix. We were to collect the papers and immediately put them into an envelope which we then sealed. They were then to be sent back to HQ with the other materials. Being a good Wayfer, I did just that so I have no idea how people responded. Is it possible those surveys, even though "anonymous", may have been gleaned by dates, cities, handwriting, etc.? If those surveys, that I unwittingly sent to HQ, had anything to do with some of the things I have seen posted, there are no words that can express my remorse. I don't know if anything transpired because of them but I would just like to say I am very, very sorry if I somehow was played as a pawn in the game. My sincere apologies.

I'm going to try to stick to the facts here. Situation #1. My friend was a diagnosed schizophrenic who was under out-patient supervision and followed a clinically prescribed regimen of medication. One of the "believers" in our area, who was an AC grad, told him he was "born of the wrong seed". This person learned about "the wrong seed" in the AC. He(my friend) left me a note saying he could not bear to live with the knowledge that this person imparted. I found the note next to his body. He was dead. Situation #2. Les G. contracted a very serious but treatable infection. This type of infection is, indeed, sometimes fatal. Time is of the essence in terms of treatment options. Because of the Way's beliefs in the "law" of believing, he did not have an opportunity to seek immediate medical attention. For years, I was told, "he freaked out and couldn't believe." He died. Situation #3. In Fellowlaborers(not the Corps), one of our married FL sisters became pregnant. She was having a difficult pregnancy and was advised by a doctor to limit her physical activities. The coordinators of the program told her she would have to run every morning at 5:30 AM, just like everyone else, in order to fulfill the commitment that she and her husband had made. She was told to "believe" for the situation to work out. She lost the child. I was also told, though I can not verify, that permanent damage resulted and she would not be able to conceive again. Except for the very last part, these are facts. They are not in the category of "Is It Possible?" They are in the category of "It Happened."

Are you familiar with the term"complicity", Oldies. If someone is guilty of complicity, it means they were an "accomplice". That's why the person who hires a hit-man is just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger. The doctrines vpw extolled and the practices he commandeered make him an accomplice. Try using your bogus "spirit of suicide" reasoning in a court of law and see if it flies. The person who told him this, did so as a direct result of what wierwille taught in the advanced class. That makes wierwille complicit. You can skip the lesson on "spiritual significance". I think a judge would be more interested in cold, hard facts. The person who told him this was not aware he(my friend) spoke in tongues yet was so supposedly "spiritually tuned in" that they knew by discerning of spirits that he was "born of the wrong seed". How is that possible? It seems like your answer for everything is "Oh, they could have just walked away." Is that what you did,Oldies? Just walked away as soon as you saw something amiss? If your answer is "no", then my question is "Why not?" I'm sure you believe what you are doing is part of a noble cause, but in reality you are nothing more than someone who revels in wierwille's complicity, perhaps even complicite yourself in some obtuse way.

Hi, Nero Don't know if someone has welcomed you to GSC yet, but on behalf of myself---- Welcome to GSC!! Glad you are here.

Oldiesman Unless I've missed something, it appears you have chosen to ignore my invitation to examine my post on the "My Friend Liz" thread. My friend, who I heard speak in tongues, for whatever worth you may place on that, was told by a grad of the AC that he was born again of the wrong seed. That person heard the teaching on "seed of Satan"(or whatever you choose to call it) directly from the lips of VPW and then proceeded to disseminate that doctrine in our local area. He was in a fragile state mentally, Oldies, and this was a totally inappropriate thing to tell him. He left me a note saying he could not bear to live with that knowledge. He took his own life. You did not find his body. I did. You did not help carry his coffin to the grave. I did. You did not have to face the fact that you got him involved in something that contributed to his death. I DID! So sit there all smug in your own little Camelot and believe that VPW had no connection to what happened. My friend is still dead and nothing will change that. Is it possible you'll never see how wrong this all was? Only you can answer that question.

Mike Perhaps you could elaborate and explain how that applies to "The LEAD Accident". Did they base their decision on scripture or did they base it on revelation? Yeah, yeah, I know scripture is revelation too. So what's the answer? And yes, Mike, I'm well aware that the actual wording used was "Do not be deceived by your five senses" and not, " Don't go by your five senses". If anything, the original wording actually intensifies the admonition because it adds the element of consequence. (ie: Doing so could result in deception.) Even so, the meaning is still quite clear whether you write it in English, French or Russian though the actual wording of a translation will often change the actual wording and syntax. You can dicker 'til the cows come home about i's being dotted and t's being crossed but the essence of the meaning will remain unchanged. When you say, "the writings that would have given us guidance", can you present a specific example? Please don't simply say "the PFAL book". I would like a specific reference to illustrate your assertion.

When they put people in an unsafe, homemade trailer and hauled them down the road as they did in the LEAD program, do you suppose they did it by revelation or was it scriptural reference? When the father of two beautiful young children contracted an infection that might have been remedied with medication and they chose to discourage timely medical intervention in favor of ridiculing him for his lack of believing until it was too late to save him, do you suppose they did so by revelation or was it scriptural reference? Sounds to me like they didn't have a very clear understanding of revelation OR the true nature of the scriptures. Perhaps "conventional wisdom" would have been the only logical choice. IMO

Conventional wisdom is what was denigrated in TWI because it involves the 5 senses.

No Using the word "like" would make this a figure of speech.(simile) Whereas In this case, the comparison is literal. (according to usage) I wish I could have seen it in the original.(That I knew it to be.)