waysider

We are making it far too complicated. The expression is not unique to TWI. The baby= "good". The bathwater= "bad". Hence, "Dispose of the good along with the bad". Can't see the forest for the trees. Cut off your nose to spite your face. Spend a dollar to save a dime. Etc.,Etc.,Etc.

Of course, it's only my opinion, but I believe he was a "false prophet" or, at the very least, not at all that he portrayed himself to be.(Intentionally) I am basing that opinion on an experience that I had in the early days of my involvement that had me baffled until just recently. I am not going to go into specifics. I think everyone,TWI and non TwI, has moments in there life that fall into the category of; "Ah Hah!---So that's what that meant!" My "Ah Hah" moment came to me as I reviewed various subjects here on GSC. Just my opinion

Remember the *listening with a purpose* questions that were covered at the end of each session of PFAL? In session #3, one of these questions posed the query"how do we stand approved before God?" The supposedly correct answer to that question was " By studying in order to rightly divide The Word." In retrospect, it seems rather silly that we accepted that to be correct. For centuries and centuries, the vast population of Planet Earth was illiterate. So what does that mean?, that they were just SOL because they had no avenue of satisfying this "requirement"? This is just a small example of how the class was designed to put a disproportionate emphasis on "knowledge obsession". Wierwille had a vested interested in this "knowledge obsession". It (the knowledge obsession) was the backbone of his skeleton of classes, books, programs, advances and so on. In other words, he was a business man and "knowledge obsession" was the core product that he sold. Even after all these years, we're still talking about what we "learned" instead of what we actually accomplished that had any lasting, redeeming value. That doesn't mean we didn't accomplish anything of lasting, redeeming value, only that our priorities were way out of kilter. Wierwille, on the other hand, had his priorities in clear focus(IMO). He identified his product correctly and set about launching a very aggressive promotional campaign. Maybe "the baby" grew up on his own and climbed out of the dirty bathwater when no one was looking.

"Offended?" Not in the least. A multiple of perspectives gives a clearer picture.

"He was a mean, mean man."-----------Dottsie

I think it is perfectly acceptable for one's actions on- stage to be at the opposite end of the spectrum off- stage. If they happen to be an actor!!! And---------- The audience knows it is not viewing reality.

Hi, rosestoyou, First, let me say "welcome" to the cafe. I probably don't have any more real answers than you do. The very fact that you recognize you were under mind control and now wonder about its lingering presence is, in my opinion, a mighty good sign you are seeing thing more clearly. Throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater? The problem arises (IMO) when some people insist on keeping the baby immersed in the dirty bathwater. There were good things that came from our involvement and there were bad things as well. Separating the two can be somewhat tricky at times. Again, Welcome! Oh, yeah. Cool thumbnails!

Doojable Actually it was Johniam, not Jonny Lingo, who stated there where things in BG's class that were deliberately left out of PFAL. I asked if he would care to elaborate but never saw these differences addressed. Might now be as good a time as any to do so?

Biker Babe Be VERY, VERY careful about where you keep those weapons. It might not be such a good idea to keep them in plain view. Many years ago, I knew a gal who was attacked in her apartment. She was a big, strong farm gal who was in excellent shape and could bail hay with the best of them. Unfortunately, the guy who forced his way through her front door was stronger and very determined. When she realized she could not overpower him, she ran to the kitchen and got a butcher knife. She got off a few deflected strikes before he managed to take the knife away from her and turn it against her. She escaped from him and showed up at my front door. She bled on my coach until the squad arrived. She survived. The point is this: Any weapon you present, can and may likely be used against you if you are not skilled enough to render it effective and maintain possession of it.

Well, I have the tests, but I'm not going to let YOU use them!!! HeeHeeHee. Just kiddin'. I still have the *home studies* series that had to be completed in order to be accepted into the Advanced Class. Is there a specific question you were interested in? I'd be glad to post it for you.

Well, now That looks like it might be relevant to the topic at hand. Care to elaborate?

We interrupt this regularly scheduled program to bring you this brief message from "one of the guys". A long time ago, I was hitchhiking on a dark, deserted inner city street ,late at night in a very tough area of town. I got a ride. After a few blocks, it became apparent to me what this guy had in mind and he didn't seem to be the type who was interested in the idea of "consent". (need I say more?) So, some may say" But you're a guy." That's true, but guys get raped ,too. Don't kid yourself. But that's not really the point I'm driving toward. I'll shorten the story and tell you that a tire iron he had left on the cab floor(it was a pick-up truck) proved to be a very persuasive tool in convincing him to let me go. I escaped unharmed and moments later, all by my self, walking down the street, I spoke in tongues for the very first time. Another time, many years later, I stood at the front door of a home to inform the occupant I was there to take repossession of some equipment. When the door swung open, I found myself looking down the business end of a shot gun. I backed down and called the sheriff in to help me. Anyway, I didn't get raped or shot. I did, however, come face to face with at least a sampling of the kind of terror that rape victims probably feel. It's a helpless feeling and I only got a SMALL SAMPLING of it. It's scary stuff, guys. Here's my point: As a guy, you tend to rehearse in your mind what you would do if this or that happens. "Hey, first I'll sucker punch him, then I'll spin around and grab the gun"------- and on and on. Don't fool yourself. You really don't know exactly how you would react until you are staring reality square in the face. Now, stop to realize that some of this stuff happened in Podunk, Ohio, in the middle of nowhere and the victims may have been hundreds or thousands of miles from home, with no real kind of support system, with very little money and limited access to transportation or even a phone. Yeah, it's easy to say "Well, I would have Karate chopped him and broke his nose"---- and so on. But really, you don't know what you would have done any more than I knew what I would do in the two incidents I cited. How these women reacted is not relevant to whether they were betrayed or mistreated. "Walk a mile in my shoes." Was that in the PFAL class? It should have been. .

Outfield Interesting -----Very interesting.

When I read Mr. Strange's post, I thought, "Holy Crud! The guy's reading my mind!" I too had been away for quite some time before I came here and got a byotch slap of reality straight to the face. For a long time, I felt like bad things that had taken place in my life must have been caused by my leaving the "one true household" or because I was "out of fellowship" in some way that I couldn't quite put my finger on. In some strange way, it brought me a sense of relief to find that it wasn't because of my leaving TWI. Why would God allow bad things to happen in my life because I chose to leave a CULT??? That just doesn't make sense. I haven't told everything I know or have seen, but I have my own special reasons for feeling quite strongly that VPW was not the great Man Of God he has been portrayed to be. In fact, I have my own personal reasons for believing he was much to the contrary. I don't feel compelled to elaborate. When I read Groucho's post, it set the wheels( of thought) spinning. I formally studied acting at one time in my life about a thousand years ago. I even worked with two different Equity companies. Mostly, my parts were limited to the "Dinner is served." variety. I was never any kind of great actor. I did, however, have enough formal training, by well known professionals, to at least offer an educated critique. I, too, think the guy was giving a performance. Real people can't simply turn it on and off at the drop of a hat. Actors can----------at least in the context of a performance.That's why it's called "acting". Wierwille was clever enough to never "fall out of character" while he was "on stage". Here is part of my critique of his performance, both in PFAL and live on stage. He was masterful at manipulating both pace and timing. He was exceptionally skilled at reading the mood of the audience, or, in the case of PFAL, the anticipated audience. He was quite good at drawing on previous experiences to elicit the appearance of genuine emotion(ie: method acting.) He knew how to separate himself off stage from the character he portrayed on stage----- a skill that is vitally important to maintaining believability when the curtain goes up. I guess I should really say those are some big things I learned as a RESULT of taking PFAL.

One could only hope so. At least then there would be some kind of punch line to look forward to.

You are.( not *just my opinion*)

The concept of "building a sale" was also given to VeePee by heavy revvy. "Would you care to try a side order of self delusion with your order today?"

One of the bigger things I learned in PFAL----------- A person can rationalize (or justify) just about anything in their own thinking if they really make the effort. "Why didn't people just leave?"( Oldies question, paraphrased.) Dunno, Oldies, why are you still there?

A sign should read - "Leave Your Dignity In the Box - it will be returned upon your leaving, if you still want it." Or----If there's anything left of it. There was actually a place in Cleveland(back when dinosaurs roamed) that tried the wide aisle thing. People loved it. Who knew that commercial space leased out by the square foot? Eventually they had to pass the additional lease costs onto the consumer in the form of higher prices. Kinda makes a guy want to throw his hands up in surrender and go pick his own *poke salad* out in the swamps somewhere. CHOMP!

A blanket question for apologists in general: (Hypothetical, of course) Suppose, for a moment, God gave you revelation that went waaaaay beyond the old *small, still voice*,that 'TWI was a scam and VeePee was a sham'.(But there was no clear cut Word of Wisdom on what to do with it) What would you do? A. Shout it from the rooftops? B. Keep it to yourself?(people are sure to slam you for speaking it.) C. Ask your twig leader because he/she is your spiritual mentor? D. Chalk it up as an "unrenewed mind" experience? E. Walk away from TWI and never look back? BUT WAIT! There's another alternative.----- Refuse to even consider it might be genuine. Yeah, yeah, that must be the correct answer. After all, the Devil himself got Eve to consider what God had said and she wound up in deep doo-doo. At least that's what the Dr. said in PFAL. Nope. Never consider that something might not be as you first had thought it to be. That could leave you standing in deep doo-doo, like Eve. OR---------Maybe FAILURE to consider it might leave you standing in deep doo-doo. Guess you should go with *refusing to consider it*. That's from PFAL----------------Refusing to consider it, that is. ---(session #7, for all the documentation sticklers.)

Deciderator The 2 words you referenced are one and the same. They have the same meaning. One is simply an obsolete form of the other. Wierwille taught that one was an intensified version of the other. It is not. He did this to amplify segments of that teaching disproportionately.(IMO) That is an error, plain and simple.

This thread seems to have become fragmented. We are discussing three different topics as though they were one. 1.Prayer 2. Believing 3. The *Law Of Believing* They are separate topics, interwoven at times, perhaps, but separate topics, none the less. The thread title is: The Law Of Believing

Hey, Johniam I like ya man, I really do. But, this ain't about how far away the sun is or if your boss is givin' ya a bum deal on your pay. It's about whether or not it's important how many were crucified with Christ, How many denials of Peter there were, etc. Now, you might think that understanding every nuance of a Greek word is important. And, maybe to you, it is.(That's you.) To me, not so much so.(That's me.) Maybe it's just me, but I think God would be plenty happy if we could at least learn to treat each other fairly, respect each others' differences, help each other when the chips are down and acknowledge His presence. Hupo,hippo, hypo, herpo----------WHooooo cares? Learn to love your fellow man.(all inclusive) That's a big enough challenge to occupy anyone's lifetime.

Hiya, Jonny Yes, knowing the significance of the *passover lamb* is, indeed, a priceless bit of information. Peace, Brother Waysider

Might as well save your breath, Alfakat. Only those who are daring enough to -----HORRORS!-------- "consider" what you are saying, will be able to make sense of it. And those *ain't* the ones who need to hear it. Enjoyed your post immensely, just the same.