waysider

Whatta ya say we cruise down a different street in the same neighborhood? Dr. Wierwille taught that alcoholism is caused by a devil spirit called a "spirit of leviathan". This is documentable. So, here's that pesky dilemma, once again. We either followed a man who hosted at least one devil spirit(spirit of leviathan), or He was wrong about what causes alcoholism.(again, the credibility issue) Are there other options I'm not seeing here?

Dot Many years ago, one of my family members who was anti-God, anti-Bible, anti-religion, fell into a terminal, vegetative state. I'm quite certain he would have had no interest in trying to "believe" for deliverance. One day, my mother, a very wonderful twig leader, laid hands on him and prayed. He sat up like Rip Van Winkle and demanded to know what had happened and why he was in the hospital bed. My mother took a few minutes and explained to him what had happened and told him he should be thankful God had healed him. He became indignant and insisted that if it had anything to do with God, he DID NOT want it. He demanded God take back His gift. With that, he fell back into his previous state, where he remained for the rest of his life. What's my point? His "believing" had absolutely nothing to do with what took place. My mother went to God with a loving and open heart and God heard her request. I know that's just a personal anecdote but I think there is some sort of lesson in it.

Pecans?!!!!----Why, that's just nuts!!

Please hold your questions in abeyance until the end of this thread , at which time they will all be answered.

No y d a, a tall.

This is a blanket statement, not directed toward any particular person: It is difficult to fully understand and appreciate the depth of what Jesus accomplished as "The Christ" without first understanding who he was and what he endured as "a man". Just my 2 cents. Your coin purse doesn't have to resemble mine.

and a one and a two and a-------

In my opinion, this "believing" stuff is all out of wack. Or maybe I should say, "It's all wacky". Simply put, if you don't believe God can answer your prayer(s), you wouldn't go to Him in the first place. Sure, you believe the chair will hold you when you sit down, but your believing had nothing to do with the fact that it held you. Try to reverse it if you need to prove it. Tell yourself it's going to collapse when you sit in it and see if the results differ. This so called "law" of believing is contrived by the mind of Man,otherwise it would be dependent on our works. In other words, "if I work hard enough to bolster my believing, I will see results." is a bunch of nonsense.(IMO) God does not expect us to be some kind of "super stars of believing", He just expects us to bring our concerns to Him with a genuine and open heart. If you didn't believe He could help you, it's not likely you would do that. How does the fervent prayer of a righteous man avail much? The same way discussions with my family members adds depth to our relationships.

White Dove As you know, many times a thread will go off on an unrelated tangent and the essence of a previous post may be obscured in the process. This particular post of mine was in regard to a line of thinking that was being discussed about a page back. I should have referenced that before my post. The particular line of thought that was under discussion was whether devil spirits(according to the teachings of The Way) can possess just the body, just the mind, or both. The context of the of the material I referred to( as far as I recall after many, many years) illustrated how both can be involved at the same time and used alcoholism as an example of both being in play at the same time. I hope that clarifies my intent. I'm sorry I did not make that clearer. On the other hand, I do see you point about how even one single word can affect the overall essence or even change a meaning completely.

You are correct; Jesus did not tell me it was gobbledygook. He also didn't tell me it was a '48 Packard or a new way to do the boogaloo. Come to think of it, I don't think he really has a whole lot to say on the subject, one way or another. Look, Oldies, if you don't want Jesus (or a knowledge of his importance to modern Christianity) to be a part of your personal walk, it's really none of my business. That's between you and God. Did you ever stop to think that maybe God is saying to himself. "Criminy, why don't these wayfers just tell me what the heck they want instead of going through this ritual of jibberish?" Do you think He wouldn't understand you if you came to him and expressed your heart in your native language? Give it a try. How can it hurt you?

I'm not usually a Bible quoting kind of guy but here goes: ----------------------------------------------------------------- St. John 14:6 Jesus said unto him(Thomas), I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man comes to the Father except by me. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't exactly invite you to cut him out of the picture, now, does it? But, Wait!!! What about "the administration" and "to whom" and all that other stuff in PFAL? :wacko:

If it's necessary for you to know, I'm sure you could ask.

Q."How will I know which one of the two(God or Jesus) I'm addressing?" A. As long as they know (and I'm quite certain they do), why would that even matter?

I believe that fear of "communing with a devil spirit" had its origins in a premise that was being expounded throughout TWI in the early 1970s. The premise, generally stated, was that there was actually a devil spirit named Jesus and it was possible you were really talking to him. We were told (don't remember by whom) not to talk to Jesus for this reason. This has been discussed here at GSC previously. Geeze!--- It's amazing how bizarre this stuff all seems, in retrospect!

Adding to the "Did they really believe it?" thread. Here's some more debuhl spirt stuff from the AC class. (From my notes relating to Pgs. 20 and 21 for those who really MUST know.) Some of the spirits that affect the mind are, spirit of obsession(seen in people who can't control their temper),sordid spirit(uses filthy, foul language), spirit of oppression( has feelings of being persecuted), sensual spirit(has lust for money, sex and anything beyond needs) Spirit that may affect both body AND mind: (Drumroll, please)---------------spirit of leviathan(alcoholism and addiction.) Maybe this thread should be called "Did we really believe it?". <_<

HeeHee---HeeHee You said dasn't! In my whole life, I have NEVER heard anyone except my Grandmother, say dasn't HeeHee---HeeHee Sorry---What were we talking about?

Oldies First let me say that I am not trying to make this a personal issue. TWI taught us precious little from and about the Gospels. If you want to learn about Jesus, you simply can not ignore the Gospels. This would be true even if your motives were purely academic or historic. The closest we got to even thinking about Jesus(not *Christ*) was when we sang songs out of the blue book. Wierwille made a big deal out of emphasizing that we must always refer to him(Jesus Christ) as Christ and not Jesus because the power is in the resurrection not the suffering. That line of thinking was the springboard for the teaching from which I quoted a paraphrase several posts ago. *Emphasize the post-resurrected Christ and minimize the pre-resurrection Jesus*. That is what Wierwille exhorted us to do. Not once, but over and over and over again. In my opinion, I think that deprives an individual of understanding this man called Jesus. How can you have a relationship with someone you don't even know?

Two questions, Oldies. 1. What is the source of that statistic? 2.When you refer to "The Word of God", are you referring specifically to "The Bible"? ( according to PFAL, "The Bible" is "The Word of God" when it is "rightly divided".----session #2/ The God Breathed Word.)

Perhaps we could reverse that question to make it "What WAS taught in TWI beyond the obvious Christ aspect of his life?" And again, I would like to see an example of this "propaganda" you referred to. Excellent point Dooj-----So much of what God has to say to us has little or nothing to do with what's confined to words in books. edited for typo.

Session #3 of PFAL (The Integrity Of The Word) has a section called "Listening With A Purpose", as do all the other sessions. Question #3 poses the question, "How do we stand approved before God?" Please note that it does not ask "What are the various options by which we may stand approved?". The correct answer that was given in the instructors syllabus is, "Study(The Word) in order to rightly divide The Word." I dare say, a good portion of the World's population throughout time were excluded from God's approval due to their inability to read written language [bIF][/b], in fact, question #3 and its subsequent answer are accurate.

No problem. Always willing to point out the inconsistencies in PFAL. BTW--- Where is this propaganda you refer to about Wierwille not teaching "the immense greatness of Christ"? Or, are you referring to the fact that he taught very little about Jesus and our relationship with him?

I have never been there myself but I know someone who attends every year. It's not nearly as innocuous (or communal) as it sounds.

Here's something else that VPW taught in PFAL that I'm certain others besides myself remember. (paraphrased)-------"When Christ returns, he's coming back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He's coming back as Lord God Almighty!!!!" The official word we class instructors got was to put a spin on it and explain that he was just wrapped up in the emotion of the moment. I'm pretty sure *retakes* and *editing* were not unheard of in 1967. <_< And to think that I was once reprooved for saying "We are AFFILIATED with The Way(Int.)" instead of saying "We ARE The Way(Int.)

Yeah, You're right. I probably have the years mixed up. They kinda all flow together after awhile. Don't know why. It was only 30+ years ago--HeeHee I do remember one big time arse chewin' I got once in my year #3. Seems it was a Saturday morning and we were all supposed to be cleaning houses. My new bride and I decided to slip away and spend some * quiet time* together. Don't know who ratted us out but I was summoned to limb HQ (Right Now!) without a clue of what it was about. (30-40 minute drive for those who are unfamiliar with the area.) J.M. threatened to toss me(not my bride) out on my ear if I didn't bow down to him., in a figurative sense, for the rest of the year. I only buckled because I knew how important it was to her to graduate. My attitude was never the same after that. I don't think he would have thrown her out anyway as he seemed to be quite fond of her. ( Know what I mean , Vern?) Yawn---G'night ,Maw, G'nigh, Paw, G'night, 'Short Stuff, G'night John Boy.

Stevie Wonder had a big hit with a song called Uptight.Bill Cosby redid it with some spoken words over the top of the music and called itThe Little Old Man.That's me---The Little Old Man