waysider

sorry---- double post

Hey there, DW-- I was "in" under both administrations.(I was a FLO4 and FLO5) The experiences described were under jm.(as far as I recall) Heck, it was 30+ years ago and not something I've tried to preserve in my memory I'm going to refer to them simply as experiences rather than tortures if that's O.K. I think(oops, I did it again!) that the "middle of the night" incident probably had the greatest impact on me. That's the incident where we were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night and ordered to report to limb HQ in some unreasonable amount of time. None of us were on time. It was physically impossible. We sat in total silence and darkness until the MOG(jm) appeared and told us we had all failed the test(because we were late) and we were the reason The Word was not moving in Ohio and the future looked pretty gloomy for the entire ministry because of our shortcomings. Then we were told the program was canceled. It was like a bolt of lightning zapped us. They let us leave and return to the commune in a state of total failure even though they knew full well the program would be reinstated when the sun came up.(Provided we agreed to do exactly as they ordered from that point on.) That was just an exercise in mental abuse and cruelty. In a sense, I believe it had an effect that was opposite to that which was intended. Some people, including myself, adapted an attitude of secretly going through the motions in order to at least make it to graduation. That way, you could at least feel like you hadn't "tripped out". Yeah, I know, it's self delusion but sometimes "ya do what ya gotta do". One guy went back home after graduation and started spilling the beans. He had goons banging on his door telling him to cease and desist IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS within a very short time frame. After I had already graduated, I found myself in a situation that required I go back for one more year. No details at this time. It was a result of a choice I had made. My heart was definitely not in it that year but, once again, I made it through to completion. It's easy to look back and realize what I should have done but it was not at all that clear cut as it was unfolding. I have no animosity toward either hy or jm.(Well, ok, maybe I did have some for jm.) They were probably just stuck in the middle like we were. The whole experience changed my life in ways that are hard to talk about openly. Sorry--- Didn't mean to talk your ear off in response to a simple question.

Thanks, WG You really hit the nail on the head regarding the feeling of isolation. Where would you go? What would you do? Your days with the ministry would essentially come to a screeching halt by your own choice if you left. I don't remember anyone leaving of their own choosing. There were some who were "tossed out" in the middle of the night. I lived in two different "houses" where this happened. They were ordered to be completely out of the state within a matter of hours.(a day at the most) Why? Because they did not follow some inane order to a tee! Yeah, it was expected you would do exactly as told without question or debate. There was no "reasoning from The Word". And all the time this is happening, you find yourself thinking, "Gee, maybe I'm the one who is wrong here." Who wanted to defy the mighty MOG who might be acting in accordance with some great revelation?(cough) I suppose that's why some of us would make "junk runs" to the truck stop and try to sort through our confusion in secret as we make the trek.

You Can Never Go Home Anymore.

I remember hearing people say this but I don't recall it ever being taught. I think the first time I heard someone say this was in about 1974. (I was not in the Corps and therefore this is second hand.) Wierwille gave an order that the Corps was not to leave the grounds one weekend. One of the men left anyway and went into town. He died as a result of a car accident that night. The buzz that went around was that Wierwille had received revelation about the accident and that is why he had given that directive. People used it to play up the hedge of protection thing as well as the manner in which he died. Another time I heard it was when two women and some children died in a terrible car wreck after leaving The Rock of Ages. (I only know one woman's name. I don't know whose children they were.) There was talk that followed along the lines of what has been stated here. Another time was when Lester G. became acutely ill and died. The talk was that he died this way because he couldn't believe and his lack of believing was a sign of being out of fellowship. There are probably more that I could think of. The point is, though, that I never actually heard this formally taught. That doesn't mean it wasn't but I never heard it(as far as I recall) My condolences go out to you, A la p.

Hello, Roy No, nothing quite that deep in my question. I was just asking TG if he/she has had a chance to peek into some of the other rooms here besides the forums. I really like that concept of "perfect" prayer being prayer that is selfless in motivation.

I never understood the big deal with Dr. Who having two hearts. I mean, we used to follow a guy who didn't have any heart AT ALL!

Very cool!!

Yes the doors were locked and someone stood post at them. I don't think it was ever stated that they were standing guard but that was the impression it gave. I suppose someone might come along now and say something like," Golly, you could have just left if you didn't like it." But where were you supposed to go? We lived in a commune for gosh sakes! In the middle of Nowhere, USA. Most people's hometowns were hundreds and even thousands of miles away. And it was made very clear that leaving would be the same as declaring yourself a failure and any hopes you had of becoming a leader would be null and void from that moment on. You know, most people had already "burned their bridges" and had no job prospects awaiting them "back home", very little money and, for the most part, most of us didn't even have cars that could make any kind of lengthy trip. It would have been a total disgrace to walk away.(and a financial challenge.) And even if it crossed your mind to try that, how could you be sure you weren't the one who was wrong? It seems so easy to see the answer when looking at it 30 years later but it was very confusing at the time it was happening. Edit: Sorry this is out of synch with DWBH's post. I didn't know he was posting at the same time.

Here's the turtle.(Couldn't find the goldfish or seahorse.) http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/Shop/Cont...sid/0/SFV/30852

Hi, Roy That's certainly an interesting take on "perfect" prayer, that it's the essence that is to be perfect, not the technique. Even if it proved to be non-scriptural, it would still be profoundly wise advise. Holy hugs, Bro. Welcome, TG Have you perused some of the articles and such?

Was it Rod Serling that used that opening? * * * * * * "Gosh, Mrs. Cleaver, that sure is a lovely dress you're wearing." <_< Eddie, "Beaver", and Wally

Just for fun

Hmmm. Are you sure it wasn't a jelly-"baby"? EXTERMINATE!------EXTERMINATE!

Hi, WG There were actually two of these events.(That I remember) One, as you say, was "off-site" and a one day event. I think this may be the one you remember. I believe you are correct about the handcuffing also. I think there might have also been something with a blindfold, but I'm fuzzy on that part. It was pretty vicious. No, I take that back, it was sadistic. I don't recall the name of the guy you are referring to but, I too, can picture him as well as his wife. The purpose of it, in my opinion, was to break you of your individualism and make you a team member. (esprit de corps) The other one was an event where we were locked inside the BRC after Friday night supper(unannounced) and then put through a weekend long breaking session. I suppose it was somewhat similar to the accounts I've heard about deprogramming. This one was REAL bad. Doors were locked except at break. You were warned that if you left at break(as if you could just walk away in the middle of Podunk, USA) you would be toast, spiritually if not physically. You would not be welcome anywhere in the entire state or anywhere for that matter. This one might have been during the year I went back in for a third year.(After you graduated.) One of our FLO sisters had what I now realize was a nervous breakdown. I know that's not the correct medical term but I think it best conveys what happened. Not sure at which one of these it took place. I can definitely understand why Mr. Garden may have blocked this memory. I was one of the ones who was dressed down and blasted for insubordination just because I used the phrase "I think". It was nasty. Special note for those who wax nostalgic for "the good old days". This was in the mid 1970s. edited---Just remembered that third one where we got called out to limb in the middle of the night and were told the program was canceled. Then, at AM fellowship, we were given a second chance if we agreed to obey leadership implicitly.

C4 is quite effective, also. Doesn't leave much nest, though, or a place to display it.

I didn't know VP personally. I only met him a few times. Each time he was cold and aloof. He seemed to be "full of himself". (Stories about these but maybe some other time.) I don't think my respect was for him so much as it was for the office he supposedly held. He was never my idol. He was, though, someone I looked to in expectation that he would set an example for me to follow. Glad I never did.(Follow his example)

Hmmmm. Is it obscene because it is showing or because you can see it? Just funnin' with ya.

Hi there, hmh Welcome to GSC. "Time in" is really irrelevant. If they affected your life, you belong here.

Forget for a moment that we are talking about Wierwille here. Suppose you read or heard on the news that there was a guy in, let's say Nebraska or New Jersey, who was running a cheerleader summer camp as a pretense for such activities. Would you be inclined to say,"Oh, he was trying to 'loosen them up' so they could perform their cheers better."? Geeze Louise!---The guy committed premeditated sexual predation. Most rational thinking people would be embarrassed to admit they knew him and rode around on a motorcycle with him, much less come to his defense when the evidence appeared so damning. Is there really any legal difference here between a guy who does this as part of a secular activity and one who does it as part of a religious activity? Please note that I have removed the "spiritual" aspect from the question. The man has been dead for 20 years and yet he is still spiritually raping those who pledge their allegiance to him and blindly defend his "ministry". I don't feel anger toward these guys. I feel sympathy. They have been slipped a "mickey" and don't even realize it.

Unless I'm mistaken, that's Charles Brown. Either Johnny or Oscar Moore on guitar(Maybe both.) Don't remember the bass players name. Williams, I think, was his last name. I think he had a whole album of "road" songs. Was this one part of it? Interesting guy, Charles Brown. Before his musical career took off, he was a pharmacist. edited to note that Charles Brown was the guy who wrote Merry Christmas, Baby, Driftin' Blues and Stepped in Quicksand

It was definately a "synch" job. But that was pretty much accepted back then. These guys were from the East-Side of Cleveland. (I am from the West-Side.) Clevelanders identify themselves as either East or West-siders. It's mostly about which side of the Cuyahoga River Valley you are on. You may also remember Sonny as the lead singer for Climax, who had a big hit with Precious And Few. I just figured I would give the next one to Tom since he seemed to know the answer. (As long as there are no objections)

I think Tom has it.Time Wont Let Me ---The Outsiders (ft. Sonny Geraci)

"Kick the Can" and "Stickball". Hmmmm. Maybe it was a Cleveland thing. :)

Can't you see I've waited too long? To love you To hold you in my arms?