waysider

Whatever phrase you use to describe it, I think the general idea here is "going to heaven" at some point after you die. Is that too simplistic?

MS means manuscript. MSS is the plural.

Most modern scholars believe the first gospel written was Mark and that it was written in about 70 CE. Paul's death is placed at 64 CE. Obviously, he would have written the epistles before the date of his death.

I suppose I should have said the chronology of the writings. As WordWolf noted earlier in the thread, the epistles were written before the gospels.

By reversing the chronology, it puts more weight on the words of Paul than the words of Jesus, which was probably the intent of those establishing the sequencing of the canon.

I don't think that is really off topic. It illustrates that individual experiences were varied. Everyone's experience is uniquely their own.

It happened in the mid 1970's, in the middle of the night. Our program was in the the middle of rural Ohio. Just packing up and leaving on a moment's notice would have been very difficult for most. We were told the program had been cancelled because our "believing" was corrupted and inadequate. No specifics were given. A few hours later we were told we would be allowed to continue, contingent on our following orders without question. I later found out that the same stunt was being played out, at the same time, in the Way Corps. It was all staged to push people into pledging loyalty. For some people it was quite a traumatic experience. edit: Here's the thing about these kind of incidents.Some people can walk away unscathed while others are deeply scarred emotionally. There was no follow up for those who were deeply affected. In fact, those who were deeply affected were made to feel it was their own fault they were hurt. Like a spouse who is led to believe it's somehow their own fault they were the victim of abuse. It's bass-ackwards.

Yes. In PFAL, Wierwille said "speaking in tongues is proof you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you.". This was a major selling point, used to convince you that taking the class was a wise choice.

OK So my take so far is that being able to say "Lo shanta la maka see tay" might not mean what we used to think it meant.

A real bad hangover?

Actually, it did, by way if implication. VPW led the students into drawing an unspoken conclusion and then said, "I didn't say it, you did.". It's a backhanded way of making a statement... the "nudge, nudge- wink, wink" approach. This tied in nicely with the appeal of speaking in tongues. "It's proof in the senses realm, etc."

I started a new thread titled "Can salvation be lost? in the doctrinal forum to address this matter. It seems to me, that might be a better place to continue the discussion. Also, feel free to re-title the thread if you feel it's not correctly phrased.

Fasten your seat belts.

Declaration seems like too kind a word. HERE

I'm gonna open up a big old can of worms here. In PFAL, VPW taught that "speaking in tongues is the external manifestation of the internal reality, etc., etc., etc." Soooooo...shouldn't one (theoretically) be able to ascertain their internal status by simply speaking in tongues? Unless.......... .

Reminds me of the time someone got kicked out of FellowLaborers in the middle of the night and commanded to clear the Ohio border by sunrise. Who did these people think they were? ...Don't answer that.

HERE

Cheer up, chockfull. Students still overwhelmingly prefer physical books to electronic devices when it comes to serious study and recreational reading. One downside of device availability, however, is that it presents sources of distraction that reduce the amount of reading time. Well, ok, that's a bit off-topic but at least it's somewhat tangential, I hope. one quick reference.

"Fear is sand in the machinery of life."....... V.P. Wierwille E. Stanley Jones

Here ya go...

Hahahahaha! You think I have an ax to grind? I'm puzzled why you would think this. Here's the skinny: These guys have been doing this stuff for 40-50 years. Now, as the sun is starting to fade on us all, they have realized they need to see some kind of return on all that time and effort they've invested. That's not hate , presumption or venom. It's a simple observation. You don't need to know what's going on in someone's heart or mind to understand that reflecting on past efforts is something we all do, TWI and non-TWI alike. I do agree with you, though...spewing venom is seldom a good thing.

Oh, they had an epiphany, alright. They suddenly realized they're not getting any younger and they'd better make a dash for the door before it can hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em.

This bears repeating.