penworks

I sure hope not! But we will do our best to deter them from happening...

Okay. I think I got it. Sometimes the truth stinks and yet we ache to know it...and often we need to for our own sanity and healing process. I hope that this thread, in response to Dana Fort's heartbreaking story, sheds more light on things, especially for her, since she started questioning the truthfulness of the whitewashed history of TWI she grew up with. It is difficult, I know, to have to dredge this crappola out of the shed and into the sunshine for newbies like Dana who never heard any of this...I appreciate the energy it took for you, DWBH, to write this up, down, and sideways. It is draining. It is sickening to have to think about it all again. Go take a break and breathe long yoga breaths. That's what I do... Cheers, Penworks :blink:/>/> PS - If I were the website creator for TWI, I wouldn't mention his name, either.

Hello. I'd like to step in and remind readers that some of us here are agnostics (I am) or atheists or whatever else who feel a moral obligation to speak up on topics pertaining to TWI and on our experiences in the group. We many not be Christians any more, but we have some perspectives that can help people decide whether to join The Way or get out of it, or stay away from offshoot groups who say they've fixed Way problems so their spin-off is better. In my view, these spin-off groups are still perpetuating fundamentalism and cult-ish attitudes of "my interpretation of the Bible is right, yours is not." DWBH and I share that moral compass that points us in the direction of speaking up, so do many others here. Calling out TWI policies and actions, and calling out former "public" leaders from the group who wielded their influence and caused harm, is part of a whistleblower's responsibility. Any of the offshoot leaders, etc., or staff at HQ are welcome to come here and debate, as I understand it. Part of what I do, as it has evolved, has also been to interpret to the outside world (my friends who never heard of The Way and want to understand me) just what the heck we're talking about at this site (as in website) and our journeys as former-Way followers trying to recover. One problem I face while "interpreting" is understanding where TWI "is at" these days at headquarters regarding this specific issue: Is their reluctance to put VPW's name on their website a court-ordered decision? A choice made from shame? A choice made...why? Last month I wrote a letter to the Way Information Center, which is how you contact The Way these days, and asked that question. I sent the letter certified mail. No one has replied...yet. I thought it was only fair to give them a chance to say something about that. I am considering writing an article about the glaring absence of VPW from the website of the cult he started. So, DWBH, I need a little more help. Could you clarify your view on the reason they don't mention VPW on their site? You left me with the impression they would be shooting themselves in the foot because so many people know about VP and LCM delinquency (understatement) issues that it makes the current iteration of The Way in New Knoxville want to disassociate from those men. The site says the group was founded in 1942. What is an outsider to make of a site that does not credit their founder or praise him like they used to? It is clear from other internet sites that VPW started The Way. It takes 2 seconds to discover that fact. What is up at HQ? Really. I'd like some non-insider jargon to explain this to people who, for instance, are reading my blog. Thanks, Penworks

It was a catch-22 situation. We should love the untouchables like Christ did, yet deny any inner wisdom we had about protecting ourselves because the Bible said we were more than conquerors and should fear nothing. I'd like to know about this, too, if it is not a secret that DWBH can reveal that might jeopardize his identity to outsiders...or insiders...or whomever...

A few thoughts... This topic of grunt work in service to VP's agenda is vital to understanding his power of persuasion. Thanks for bringing up the topic...hospitality, a good quality, was made into a grind for many of us. Everything in the house had to be spic n' span before fellowships. I remember arriving in L.A. after graduating from the 2nd Corps. My fulltime job was keeping our apartment (I had just married another 2nd Corps person) in showcase-style for meeting after meeting. I loved the believers, but the cleaning thing, geez....but I'd learned amazing cleaning skills in the Corps. Cleaning should have been one of the Corps principles for we surely attained the goal of being experts at it. As for opening my home, more than the expenses of running a fellowship, I think there is no price tag I can put on the risks we took by having strangers in our house, especially when our baby came along... I think of the sexism of "the refreshments lady," mentioned above. That seemed like such a minor task but it was not. I don't remember a "refreshments guy," but there probably was somewhere in some WOW family... So what do TWI representatives have to say about all the risks we took to build the empire of $64,791,485 (million) in assets listed on their 2013 tax return? Thank you? There is a 147-acre farm on the outskirts of New Knoxville, Ohio, owned by a non-profit organization that pays no taxes. That tax money could help the community in which it exists. If religion is supposed to help you be a better person, how is TWI doing that? I guess the anonymous testimonies on the TWI web site are meant to be convincing, but these days, I suspect that most readers on the internet doubt the value of such flattering quotes attributed to no one. There is not one word about Wierwille on their website, either. Very interesting...why not give credit to their mighty man of god? Peace, Penworks

Many thanks for taking the time to respond like this and include the valuable info on developmental stages. Bingo. That tender age window is what made many of us so vulnerable to VPW and his indoctrination. I think those of us in The Corps were probably changed more and in worse ways than anyone associated with TWI. Ever. Last thought for now: I have heard that counselors these days evidently shy away from using the term "arrested development" to describe what you described above so well, but I think that term is very useful. Grow up and think for yourself, was my mantra after leaving TWI. It pushed me to examine, think, and think about what I was thinking. That's one reason I like it here. People try to think about what they are thinking and decide whether it's good or not, bigoted or not, loving or not, true or not. Cheers and thanks for all the insights. You guys are wonderful, Penworks

You may not have been altered much while immersed in TWI, but I know I was. I remember sneaking off to St. Mary's library while I was working at TWI headquarters in 1986 and reading "The Mind Benders" by Jack N. Sparks. It was first published in 1977. The book blew my mind. :-) I saw myself on some of the pages. In Part III of the book, there's a chapter called "An Introduction to The Way, International." On page 214, there's a section called Behavior Modification. It reads in part: "Slowly the behavior of the devotee of The Way changes. He begins to act almost as he were becoming another personality. He isn't. It's just that another personality is dominating him." Well, those of us here know who that personality was at that time: VPW himself. If you'd like to read part of my story, here's a recent blog post. http://charleneedge....identity-theft/ I welcome your comments about this post, either at the end of the post or here at GSC. What do you think happened to your identity? Cheers, Penworks

This topic is one I've thought about often since leaving TWI in 1987, and what I think is not very flattering to VPW or to organized religion. I was in the second Corps which graduated in 1973, and I married a second Corps man. The 10 second Corps men were ordained in 1974 after one year of experience on the field. Later, when the third Corps (men and some women) were going to be ordained, VPW wrote a letter to the second Corps women, the married and the unmarried, and asked us whether we, too, felt we wanted to accept the ordination status. Some women did, I did not. I told VPW that my husband's ordination was sufficient...I was his helpmeet. Ah yes, the dutiful wife... I no longer subscribe to Christianity, so that colors my views considerably, I know. I view the ordination phenomenon from a distance now, so like the outsider that I am, I wonder why the procedure is necessary at all. I think it plays into the hierarchical structure of organized spirituality that lauds one person above another. I believe in equal access. I think everyone is responsible for their own "spiritual" lives, and having ordained ministers around weakens that ability, makes people think they NEED a clergyman to be their spiritual overseer, to be their spiritual leader, to tell them what is right. Really? As far as I understand ordinations, the Apostle Paul began the tradition, and since I consider him, well, very sincere but a man who formed his own religion believing he was doing it the way his "God" wanted him to, I think ordinations feed into a hierarchical structure and create results that are not useful to people, like the belief that an ordained person is more valuable to "God," or more "spiritual" etc. Example. Last year I attended a dinner party with about ten other people. The host couple invited their neighbor (and wife), who was also their church minister. We were all sitting around the living room eating appetizers etc. and talking like peers when suddenly, right before we got up to eat, the hostess said the neighbor was going to pray. Suddenly a hierarchical atmosphere appeared out of nowhere like a stray cloud! What I am NOT saying: I am not saying that ordained people do not genuinely love others, help them (like sitting up all night with someone suicidal), etc. but un-ordained people do those things, too. And some ordained people should not do them. Many times they should send people to mental health counselors. I am not saying we should not seek counsel from people wiser than ourselves on a given subject in life. But how do we designate that wisdom? I am not disrespecting people who were/are ordained in TWI. I know many of them and they are good people. I'm just expressing my opinion -- that the ritual of ordination conducted by VPW in TWI was a show performed to shore-up VPW's ego, and possibly the ego of some of his clergy. I said SOME not ALL. I think VPW wanted to compete with Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, etc, and denominations in general to make TWI look like a real ministry with real ministers. Since I now view VPW as a fraud, I have difficulty valuing his ordinations. Were they simply trappings to make his cult appear respectable? Let me repeat, my opinions are not meant to disparage the people who are/were ordained. They each have their own conscience to deal with on this. I just question the value of the whole process, whether it is inside or outside of TWI. As for what we were told ordination was - it was explained something like: it was making publically known what was already spiritually "operating" in the person, what that person's God-given ministries were, described something like "long-suits" or abilities they had more than other people did. Something like that...

This is one of my articles about TWI and its influence as a cult. I trust it will be useful to some readers here. The Camouflage of Cults

I admire Dana's courage in writing her story and posting it here. She's a truth seeker and teller. We need more of them here.

Thanks, WordWolf. This is important info!

I found this excellent article about cults. Cult Attraction is Not a Problem of Logic

Alexandra Stein, PhD wrote this excellent article: Cult attraction is not a problem of logic I think it's VERY good. She has an entire website devoted to her investigation into the cult phenomena.

If VPW had been open to healthy criticism there would not have been a TWI. Remember, he began TWI because, as I understand it, he could not get along well with others (understatement) in his denomination. I think that's because he was what sociologists call a charismatic authoritarian. They aren't usually open to much discussion. :-)

Thanks! Wonderful take on cultism.

Wordwolf, Did Jim Doop publish these quotes you attribute to him? Are they in Karl Kahler's book? Thanks, Penworks

Hi everyone. Getting back to the topic of this thread, Cult Prevention, I'd like to add a couple of things. I think we can all agree that cult prevention is no easy task, especially in the U.S. where we have freedom of religion and certain constitutional protections, and apparent ease in creating a cult disguised as a non-profit organization BUT I think we can try. We must. Too much damage in the name of God is done by cults, right? One way is warning others about destructive cults so they don't get mixed up in them, like having a place like this. Yay! As I understand it, GSC was created for former TWI followers to share their stories and help each other understand The Way phenomenon and recover more mental and emotional health. At least that was my impression. So, I just want to say cheers to the people behind the scenes, i.e. moderators, etc. who keep the café open. Maybe because I was recruited to TWI as a teenager in college I have a hunch that young people need more education about religion so they recognized a sales pitch for a cult when they hear it. I don't mean education IN a religion but ABOUT religion and its power. So, I'd like to recommend a book by Stephen Prothero titled Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't. I wish I'd read that when I was 18 years old! Prothero is a Christian and a scholar who writes in a way the general public can enjoy. The cover of the book states, "Provocative and timely...combines a lively history of the rise and fall of American religious literacy with a set of proposed remedies." - The Washington Post. I am a firm believer in reading good educational material like Prothero's to help me, as well as poetry, fiction, newspapers, whatever...without censorship. Full disclosure -- I am no longer a Christian, but an agnostic with a Buddhist sort of spirituality. I say that because I like people to know I am not a defender of any kind of "doctrine," but a defender of free inquiry and free speech, which is why I like to visit (and lurk at) this site. While in TWI, those freedoms were not respected, as least in my experience. I paid a high price. So, does anyone else have a book they can recommend or other actions we can take to address cult prevention besides keeping GSC open and sharing our experiences whenever appropriate? Cheers, Penworks

Thanks, Rocky. Yes, I'm at www.charleneedge.com. My memoir is finished (hello John Linder, etc.) and you can sign in to receive updates which I'll post once or twice a month. Cheers, Charlene L. Edge former Second Way Corps member

Ditto. "That's what makes me think that maybe someone has made their story known". Hi everyone, You can be sure of this -- I'm not involved in this show. I have my own story to get published.

Ehrman is one of my heroes. Fearless. Speaks the truth without patronizing.

I think this is an important point. Most books on cults that I've read bring this to the forefront: groups that place high demands on followers, attempting to control them, fall into the destructive cult description.

Yes indeed. Theirs was a tribal mentality, which always has to include a Them vs. Us and a good deal of control. If you have questions about my post, feel free to ask me, not ask anyone to "rewrite" what I said. They don't have that job. I'd be happy to try and help.

This may be useful: It's my checklist for a cult. I figure that if a group's characteristics fit this list, then it's a cult. CULT aspects: Leader's Claim of "special knowledge": Wierwille claimed: "He [God] said He would teach me The Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others." Even though he's dead, let's face it, TWI in New Knoxville and offshoots cling to and promote his fundamentalist teachings, whether they've slightly "revised" them or not. Control &Indoctrination Control of information, behavior, emotions, thoughts, and money. Harmful effects on followers: Shut off their critical thinking capacity. Fear modernity: evolution, medicine, technology. Fear the historical-critical approach to the Bible and condemn it. Invest time, money, energy in cult's goals, not their own. Suffer health problems, even death, from thinking "I'm healed." Slap band aid Bible answers on a democratic society's complex problems. Seize political control to promote their beliefs. Become paranoid that unbelievers are persecuting them. Often disrespect other religions and avenues of spirituality. Develop habits of manipulating people and scriptures. Break relationships that hinder commitment to the group. Unwittingly or deliberately spread propaganda. Lose educational, financial, and relationship opportunities. Retards their own personal growth

I agree that in the USA we cannot prevent them from forming, but as many of us are trying to do, we can try to prevent people from joining cults. Does anyone else here know about ICSA? They try and educate. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS_hc5LO1HtMvoa8kRcLcig