penworks

On the official web site of The Way International, I thought it was interesting they felt they had to make a statement disclaiming any affiliation with the Way T.V. that apparently produced that awful video recently that is being used to inflame the Middle East. http://www.theway.org/topic.php?page=about&lang=en What do you guys think of this statement on that web page? "The Way International does not support or engage in the slander of any individual, group, or country."

Talk about bringing back memories...just saw the movie, The Master. Great performances but the movie went on a little too long. Maybe that was just me. Hoffman's depiction of a controling cult leader (only without a Bible) was well done. But I got the shivers when he smoked Kools and rode a motorcycle. Worth seeing, but only If you are ready to put yourself through some emotional stuff again...not sure I was. Didn't get much sleep last night. And I left TWI twenty-five years ago!

Ditto!

Thanks, Raf. I understand.

Hi Raf, Just wanted to say my comments were not meant as reproof so no need to apologize. I really did want to know whether you had a reason for excluding the option in your survery along the lines of some of us believing SIT was "of God" but later doubting it after we left TWI. I agree with you that TWI's teachings (and the offshoots of TWI) are contradictory, often nonsensical, presumptuous, and most of us here know were stolen from the teachings of J.E. Stiles, etc. and others who wrote about the holy spirit. My musings on my experience with speaking in tongues are just musings. At the time it happened, I believed it was a spiritual experience from God. Now I'm not sure, since I've abandoned lots of ideas about God. Like others here, I don't expect to ever "know" what the heck I was really doing when I spoke in tongues and to put it bluntly - I don't care. But I don't conceive of myself of having lied about it, although you have given me reason to pause and second guess myself on that. I guess I don't know how lying applies to this situation. I'm puzzled. While in TWI, I felt like I was doing what VP described and I thought he was right about it all. Plus, I was not consciously asking the critical questions like the ones expressed here. I had shut down my faculty of critical thinking thanks to VP's and others' intimidation and my weak self esteem. Perhaps the question now is: Does the nature of lying involve a conscious awareness of doing so? I think for some of us, we were blindly following and not consiously aware that VP's claims about speaking in tongues were false. BUT as soon as we had doubts, we quit preaching VP's doctrines and admitted we just didn't know that we knew anymore... What more thoughts can you share with me on this? I am sincerely asking.

Any particular reason you did not include an option like: I sincerely thought I was doing something real as described by Wierwille's teaching, but after I left TWI, I've doubted the value or meaning of speaking in tongues. BTW - I spoke in tongues before I heard any of TWI's teachings and before I heard anyone from TWI speak in tongues. I'm not sure how to account for it other than it being a type of altered state of consciousness. Before I met anyone from TWI, a woman in the group called Young Life had told me that one day I would speak in tongues. She said it was a gift from God. She told me this right after she had prayed for me in English and then she spoke in tongues outloud right after she prayed in English. Her tongues language sounded like French to me. Later after I met Way people, one of them told me they could teach me how to speak in tongues. At first, I worried they were wrong about that. Young Life people had said no one could teach you because it was a gift from God. But before the Way believers had the chance to "instruct me" I did it on my own while praying. So the question that's haunted me is: did I have a genuine speaking in tongues event, one that was a gift from God, or was I only immitating what that lady had done? I know that my "language" did not sound French or like any other language I'd heard before. I could stop and start as I wished, like I learned later from TWI. But I wonder whether the power of suggestion, from both the Young Life lady, and later from the Way person, played into my experience. Whatever the "real" explanation, I know I enjoyed it sometimes but I no longer feel the need for it.

Kept it for the future possibility of writing a book ....

As far as I know, WJC bought it most of the time, but I can't speak for him. I can say that during the time I worked for him, he was loyal to VP, no doubt about it.

This may not seem like an "insane rant" by VP, but when you think about it, it's awful. From one of my Corps notebooks. September 21, 1971 First wave of W.O.W. Ambassadors training VPW comment while teaching Acts 17: "The organized church will envy and hate you because of your knowledge of The Word and your believing boldness." Naturally, all these years later, I think the reason for that hate (if there ever was any) was due to many Way followers arrogance about knowing "the accuracy" of The Word. I'm sure many times we came off as know-it-alls. That never helps anyone! And I do think that certainty is one of the biggest problems in any belief system.

Yes, lack of life experience and insight kept us at a disadvantage. I cringe at all that but I try and remember that the indoctrination was powerful, at least for many of us. It kept so many of us hooked and unable to think critically about what we were doing. Recently I re-met a person who tried to warn me about TWI in 1971. That person had done some homework and even back then, found one of VPW's early edition books, and realized the group would repress my freedom of expression (at the very least). This person described that 1971 version of myself as unable to self-reflect. I was so obstinant. Yes, that is a trait I've battled with all my life, but in my youth that was a huge factor in my inability to listen to a sound-minded person trying to get through to me. Specifically, the obstancy centered around the belief that GOD himself had led me to TWI. That trumped any reasoned thoughtfulness about the downside of dropping out of college and becoming the fanatic I grew to be. Thankfully, I now have a mature relationship with that long lost friend. I've been lucky they are so forgiving of my younger self!

Some of us took really good notes.

I've thought about this on and off for years. I think there are many "reasons," but chief among them was VP's control issue. IMO he was a narcissist and everything revolved around him. He had to be in charge. An alternate perspective would take the spotlight away from his perspective, which was "accurate." Only in a few casual "research" sessions with WJC and a few other "trusted" people, did I see him concede any ideas he might have had about a given verse...but only after it was made clear that he had "checked with the Father" that the "correction" was right. That maneuver still kept him in the authoritarian position he loved.

I feel that way, too. The promise of "the accuracy of the Word" was unmet so I left. But of course it was unmet, in my opinion, because it was a mirage...

Glad to see someone else has learned about Darby and his contribution to the theory of Bible "administrations" that so many evangelicals and fundamentalists subscribe to. He is an important figure in the history of this kind of Bible study and influenced VPW whether he knew it or not....if he did know of it, he sure didn't question Darby. At least I never heard him mention Darby's name. Why not question such a contrivance? IMO, dispensations/administrations are a system of time-zoning the Scriptures to back up what you want to believe.

...Or go directly to their site S.O.W.E.R.S. The Corps principles are the exact same ones VPW Sr. put together for us in 1970, designed to propagate his cult. Not too effective given that most of us from The Corps are long gone from TWI, although many carry on in offshoots..

I've read both of these books and can recommend them! Something else that helps me to practice more self awareness is meditation or mindfulness, slowing down and reflecting more...

I remember that one of VPW's great heroes was General Patton. More than once VPW showed us the movie based on his life where he was ordering his men around and shouting profanity. Once VP had us meet in the Way Woods and put up a giant screen so we could watch this modern day "leader" practice principles of intimidation etc., ones that VPW obviously emulated. VP would laugh and laugh at the general's arrogant behavior. In my view, many guys in the Corps loved Patton, too, because VP did. This outrageous model of so-called leadership supported VP's own abusive behavior that many of us had convinced ourselves was the way a real leader should act, after all, VP portrayed the Old Testament prophets yelling and screaming at the Israelites when they worshiped false idols, etc.. VP used Patton's example as a great "leader" as a justification for his often mean and sickening style, and many - not all - of the Way Corps (guys especially) tried to copy it.

Excellent point.

I venture to guess that one of those issues is translating VPW's books. Tom translated them into French, the language of some - and I emphasize SOME - Africans, depending on their nation in Africa. It's highly unlikely any books were translated into Swahilli and Lengala, but maybe...perhaps some live translations went on during live teachings. In any event, the problem of who would decide that those translations were "accurate" was a continual thorn in VP's side. (this problem plagued TWI after VP's death, because he had been that guy). Some of us realize the issues in translating...they are many and often involve subjective calls. A good translation depends on the translator's knowledge of the source language AND the target language. Nobody in TWI was in that position regarding the outreach in Africa to my knowledge.

Can you tell us approximately when you gave this presentation? What year? Thanks! Penworks

I've heard through the grapevine that many innies don't trust what is written here because, for the most part, the posts are anonymous. Has anyone else heard that?

Hi there. Three things: 1) the Dead Sea scrolls contain portions of the Old Testament. None of those manuscripts were accessible to the public for years and years. It's possible some of them could impact current teachings in Jewish or Christian circles but while I was in TWI, B*rnita J*ss and I did talk about what their value might be. We didn't see them as "contaminated" etc. That sounds like something LCM would say. We saw them behind glass cases in the museum in Jerusalem on the Bible Lands Tour 1985. 2) Having been on the Research Team, I can vouch that it was a "sham," as you put it, not only because we had to "back up" VP doctrine but because of the limits that a fundamentalist approach to the Bible put on research done in TWI, in particlular, inerrancy. Inerrancy demanded the Bible "fit like a hand in a glove" without errors, etc. For the record, I believe the Aramaic Concordance was the only true research resource we produced because it was simply that, a Concordance. However, The Aramaic Interlinear (completed after the Concordance), which was a reference book, but got "contaminated" in my opinon by Wierwille's psuedo-theology because the person who finished that translation made certain changes that "lined up" with VP's interpretations. Some of this I included in my Affinity story. 3) As for GMIR, a lot of nice information was offered in those articles but they all had to comply with the basic premise of inerrancy which skewed their findings. I knew some reserachers who would not submit articles to GMIR because of the heavy editing done by the in-house Team and Way Publications for the material to "comply" with existing teachings. Cheers, Pen

Glad the article is helpful. I agree. The research couldnt' be "real" because it stated its hypothesis as if it were the result. i.e. Biblical inerrancy. That was never shown to be true in TWI nor is it shown anywhere else IMO. Inerrancy is not critical to appreciating the Bible. VP's reseach efforts were a stab at being accepted in the scholarly world. Some on our team during the 1980s would attend the Society of Biblical Literature meetings and report on what TWI was doing, i.e. the Aramaic Concordance. VP wanted respect from scholars who attended it yet often denounced such scholars as "intellectual egotists" or unbelievers. Crazy. And he used W*alter C*mmins, a good hearted person taken in by VP, to do his bidding. Interesting that W*alter still promotes VP's stuff and follows his methodology... Once the foundaton of TWI's research is understood, i.e. fundamentalism -- a plagiarized fundamentalism at that! -- TWI's value unravels for many of us. Also, when you give up believing VP's cult leader claim (the snow story)-- the whole thing unravles pretty fast, too. Cheers! Pen

Univ. of Life? Depth of research? Lofty? Well, I guess it's all a matter of perspective...

For a long time I've wondered why they left...