Belle

"These are from some of my notes on the book, 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse'. It's got lots of useful information I thought might be good to bring up again given we have some new people at the counter. My ex threw away my copy of the book, so I don't have it to compare and pull out the direct quotes. If you haven't read this book, no matter how long you've been out or been in, I highly recommend it! When you read this you're going to think these people are from TWI, but they're not. :o And that's scary! This part added on edit. Thanks WW!! :) You can't stay and you can't leave The spiritual abuser will quite often make it both hard to stay and hard to leave. This is a really cruel manipulation. The poor Christian is told that other groups are devilish, and counterfeit. They are told that if they leave something terrible will happen to them, or that God will be very displeased with them and that He won't answer their prayers. Yet if they try to stay then they will be told that they have to live up to some impossible standard to earn God's love and praise. This is called performance based Christianity. This is the opposite of grace based Christianity, because the believer has to earn what God has already freely given him. The problem here is that nobody can live up to the standard - - not even the spiritual abuser himself lives up to the standard that he is promoting. Jesus Christ was the only man that ever walked perfectly - - the rest of us can only make it by God's grace. Then when people don't measure up to the standard they are kicked out, excommunicated, marked and avoided, or some other form of removal from the group that they are now desperately trying to stay in. This is where fear motivation, control and demanding of obedience are manifested. There is a great record in the John Chapter 9 - - this is the record of the man that was born blind. One of the miracles that proved that Jesus Christ was the Son of God was the healing of a man born blind. This had never been done before. The Pharisees were spiritual abusers who were not interested in the blind man's deliverance. They were instead interested in accusing and kicking out those who didn't follow their religious standards. John 9:26 Then said they [the Pharisees] to him [the man born blind] again, What did he [Jesus Christ] to thee? how opened he thine eyes? 9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. Here the Pharisees kicked out the man because he was healed on the wrong day and he had the courage to stand up to them and question them and because he was not intimidated by them. John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jesus Christ did not kick out his followers. He kicked out devil spirits, and he backed down Scribes and Pharisees, but he didn't turn on his own followers. But spiritual abusers will often accuse people of having devil spirits, but instead of casting out the spirits they cast out the people. The reason is that the people don't have spirits to cast out because the accusation was false to begin with. There are occasional situations where someone may have to be asked not to attend a church or fellowship. But if removing people from the fellowship is the norm then there is something wrong. In an abusive system the follower is taught that the ONLY truth and protection come from staying in the group. This puts a deep fear of leaving into the follower. The follower will do anything to keep from getting kicked out, and the follower would not even dream of leaving even though the treatment he receives in the group continues to get worse. Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: I have seen these verses used to teach that "the way of holiness" is staying in the group and that those that leave the group will end up being devoured by the lions and other ravenous beasts. This again builds fear and negative believing so that people don't have the courage to leave or that when they are out they are convinced that something terrible will happen to them. When people get in that state of mind they will quite often get what they fear. Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

"These are from some of my notes on the book, 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse'. It's got lots of useful information I thought might be good to bring up again given we have some new people at the counter. These notes are from the very beginning of the book and when I read these first few pages I began to cry. I felt like Jeri. I really thought I was goiing crazy, though. I thought I had rebelled so much, so badly against God that I was losing my mind and crawling with devil spirits. If you haven't read this book, no matter how long you've been out or been in, I highly recommend it! When you read this you're going to think these people are from TWI, but they're not. :o And that's scary! The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse 1991 David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen Jeri sat in the office of a Christian counselor, explaining that she felt desperate, and felt like she was going crazy. "Either that," she said dryly, "or I'm on the verge of a major breakthrough in my spiritual growth." "Those are two big opposites," the counselor noted. "How did you come to that conclusion?" "Well," she began, choking up, "I went to my pastor a few months ago because I was feeling depressed a lot. He pegged the root problem right away, but I can't seem to do anything about it." "Root problem…" the counselor repeated. "What was that?" Jeri looked down at her shoe tops. "I guess I would have to say the problem is, well, me. My pastor says I'm in rebellion against God." Jeri's pastor was either incompetent or an outright liar or both. Instead of offering compassion, love and spiritual tenderness this pastor came up with a "root problem." Quite often those who are so very quick to accuse others of having a "root problem" have an even larger problem themselves. Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Jesus Christ called the spiritual abusers hypocrites, because they were quick to jump on the faults of others and refused to acknowledge their own faults which were even worse. The spiritual abusers will hold their followers to a standard that they themselves do not follow, and they will demand that people try to earn what God has already freely given them. False Accusations Jeri's Pastor gave her some Scriptures to memorize and she was told to get her mind off of herself and onto others. When the pastors instructions did not help Jeri then she became a problem. She exposed the pastor's incompetence and the pastor cannot let his people see that he doesn't really know how to solve the problem, so he has to accuse her of having some "root problem." John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus Christ was accused of having a devil - - those doing the accusing were spiritually incompetent and they were liars. Accusing people of being possessed of devil spirits is one of the false accusers' favorite tools. I have met numerous people who were falsely accused of being homosexual, spiritualists, or some other evil thing. The one common thing that these people had in common was that they disagreed with an abusive spiritual leader. They therefore became a problem and the way a spiritual abuser deals with problem people is to falsely accuse them. Often the more outrageous the accusation the more effective it is. These false accusations work in several ways - - they silence the person accused, they intimidate those who stay, and they keep those who stay from communicating with those who leave. In a spiritual abuse system discerning of spirits turns into the counterfeit - - "Genuine Spiritual Suspicion." That way you don't even need revelation from God to accuse people of being possessed. If it looks like a duck it must be a duck. I call this "five senses discerning of spirits." It takes the spirit of God out of the equation and allows the spiritual abuser to let his devil spirit fantasies run wild. He can dream up all sorts up new types of devil spirits. The problem here is that when someone focus' on devil spirits they can start to see them everywhere. It is not good to get obsessed with devil spirits. 2 Corinthians 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. We need to be aware of Satan but we can't be obsessed with evil spirits to the point that we see spirits where they don't even exist. Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? It is not the knowledge of how bad the Devil is that leads people to God. It is the Goodness of God. Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. If you are looking for something bad in someone you will be able to find it. If you are looking for something good in someone you can find that too. The spiritual abuser looks for the evil. He may do it under the guise of some good reason like "keeping the household clean." God's people are NOT trash that needs to be removed from the household of God. The only way that you can have a completely clean household is to get rid of ALL of the people, because we are ALL imperfect. If you look hard enough for devil spirits in people then you will see them even when they are not there, because you will imagine them and you will convince yourself that they are there even when they are not. One of the great weapons that a spiritual abuser has in his arsenal is the accusation. Hitler proved that if you tell a lie often enough then people will believe it. Spiritual abusers are very adept at accusing others. They quite often do this screaming at the top of their lungs. This makes the lies and accusations more formidable.

Mike, I only highlighted the part of your post that I was responding to. I always change my posts to blue. If you actually read this thread from page 1, you'll find out how many more options are on this site - INCLUDING very easy ways to tell what threads you've read already, how to go to the last post since you were last on a thread, etc. Granted, it will take some time on your part, but I think you're a big boy and can handle reading three pages of information to find your answer. ;)

Well, OM, you have to admit that the comment is not too far off from the other ...... eh ..... comments you generally make around here. :wacko: The site has this feature, Mike. Information on it's on one of these two top threads.

It's common knowledge in the marketing world that our brains tend to tune out "negative" words like "not", "don't", "no"...... That's why so many men forget to stop at the grocery store on the way home. The wife says, "Don't forget to pick up milk on the way home" but he hears "Forget to pick up the milk on the way home." What she should say is "REMEMBER to pick up the milk on the way home". :) So when vee pee was saying, "I didn't write the book" what many of us heard was "I DID write the book!" and he was trying to convince us of that very thing!

Well, gee, Brother Speed, why didn't you come say "Hi" or at least wave? :D

No wonder vee pee liked Lamsa so much. :huh:

There's REAL GOLD in some people?? Where??? Do you have to cut them open to get it??? Come on, Man, Spill the beans!!! :P :P :P Awww, Ham, I know what you mean! If I was still TWIt brained I'd be missing out on two of the greatest friends I've had in a very long time. One of them even picked up my hurricane wood, cut the wood to fit my windows and delivered it to my house. I can't think of one TWIt who would have done that for me during my last year in TWI...... Life is so much nicer without the burden of having to judge everyone you meet and decide whether they are "worthy" of your attention.

Remember, OM believes there's no such thing as unconditional love or unconditional giving. Because he can't love and because he only cares about himself, it's beyond his ability to comprehend that some of us might want to give to Paw just out of the sheer goodness of our hearts.

I work with two gay men, one is a Christian and the other hates God because he blames God for making him the way he did and then making/allowing it to be such a reprehensible lifestyle. My take on this is, regardless of whether we think it's right or wrong, it's not our place to pass judgment on ANYONE. Based on my beliefs, I have enough sin in my life - enough beams in my eye - that the last thing I should be doing is trying to get that darn splinter out of my neighbor's eye. :ph34r: It's the GOODNESS of God that leads men to salvation - not the JUDGMENT. ;)

No, it's just fine to me, Jim. Sorry! I actually like the new look better. I think there's an option you can choose, it may be on your browser, where you can make the font bigger. Paw, Bob or one of the Mods probably knows how to walk you through it.

Ahhhh, then we probably know a lot of the same people. Wherebouts are you, Evan? I was born and raised in Starkville and Mama has worked in almost every department at MSU, including the Football Office. Daddy was president of the local bank for many, many years and they were both involved in all kinds of community things. Spent my whole life going to every single MSU athletic event there was. Sudo may have a nice accent, but his taste in schools is not so nice. :blink:

That's pretty telling, right there! Not to mention all the other quotes and reflections you've already posted, WW. It's amazing how we easily dismissed or didn't even realize what he was saying. It's like the sheister was standing in front of us telling us that he was a liar, a theif and had ulterior motives, and we just stood there nodding our heads and drinking the kool-aid.

It's not typical for any Christian denomination churches I've been to lately (and I've been to quite a few). Sunday School and Worship Services are absolutely free.

JBarrax and his study and reviews along with Raf and those who contributed to the re-evaluation of all things TWI taught were very, very, very instrumental in the removal of my TWI blinders and the healing of my brain. :) (well, that part's debatable) I'm really thankful for them and the time they took to document this and to save it. That will be added to my most important bookmarks. Thanks, David!

Admit it, Sudo....you heard three MSU Bulldogs were going to be there on Saturday night and just couldn't handle the embarrassment. We know! I already had Mama & Daddy prepared for the Ole Miss Rebel they were going to have to break bread with. :) Dang, I hate that you and your family is having to go through all that. It's no fun! Tell her next time she wants to do something like that to talk to someone with experience getting away with it (I'd be one of those people ;) . We sure are going to miss you. I was really looking forward to meeting you, even if you are from the wrong side of the tracks. :P

Oh, WayferNot!, I soooo feel your pain! I paid cash for a beautiful, bright, white 2002 Mazda Protege. Only 26K miles and power everything (my first car with power ANYTHING!), remote entry, etc. Not six months after I got it some dude t-boned me at an intersection and did extreme damage to my nearly-new car. I was so ....ed. I don't care that it was his fault. I don't care that his insurance paid for every penny and every day of my rental car. My car is now damaged goods. If I sell it I have to tell them it was in a crash and 1/2 the car was rebuilt. The frame was bent and had to be straightened out....all kinds of stuff..... THAT ....es me off more than anything else. My ex is a police officer so between that and another incident that happened recently, he's probably laughing all the way to fellowship and telling them how horrible my life is now that I "turned my back on God" :blink: I can just hear them quoting that scripture about the devil spirit that leaves and then comes back with seven more friends. I HATE giving them fuel for their manipulative - don't leave the household fear-based teachings.

To the top. :)

GC, this one DOES mention you specifically! See, we really were concerned about you!! :)

GC, you're not specifically mentioned by name here, but you were definitely one of the ones I was terribly concerned about, and I wasn't the only one here. :)

To the top for GC. :)

GC, You're kidding, right??? Every other post on here for days was us worried about you and asking if anyone had heard from you! :D We were very concerned, but didn't know how to get in touch with you. :( I'm sooooooo glad to hear that you're safe and sound!! Glad you got to take your four legged buddy with you too!! Is your home okay? Do you need anything??? Please let us know! So many of us want to help, and would especially enjoy being able to help our own beloved posters like you. :wub: I'll try to find the posts and bring them up so you can see how concerned we all were.

Wow, George, as well travelled as you are, I'm surprised you apparently aren't aware of all the great things to do in the places you seem less than thrilled with. But, then again, most of the fun and adventure depends on who you're with and what your attitude is. B) Rascal, I would love to have a month to spend in all the Smithsonians and I still think that wouldn't be enough time! Heck, I think it would take a year of playing tourist to see and do all there is in DC. I have played flag football with the MSU Alumni Mud Dogs in front of the Washington Monument. Boston is awesome! I've been there twice now and I still haven't seen and done all I'd like to. The Summer Shack does have awesome seafood and the best dang oysters I've ever had (and I'm quite the oyster connoisseur). Las Vegas has some of the greatest shows, especially Danny Ganns and the Blue Man Group, off the top of my head. Although I've never been, my parents, their friends and a lot of my friends absolutely love going there. Jim, my little brother lived in Taipei for five years. If you're headed that way and would like some info, just give me a holler. I love St Augustine, but so many of the small "quaint" towns are getting too commercial. Even Gatlinburg, TN isn't what it used to be, although the Hippensteal B&B right outside of town is so wondeful that you'd not want to leave. I'd also love to whitewater raft on the Colorado - heck, I'd like to whitewater raft ANYWHERE! I'd love to go to Hawaii and Alaska. I've been to or through just about every state, but never those two and I've only been to Mexico as far as other countries go, so anyplace outside the US would be fascinating to me. Excellent question! I've had fun daydreaming about my answers! :P

Maybe it's because I have only been out and divorced for a short time or because I share too much of my life with people, but I tell those hard hearted jerks trying to push their beliefs on me that I used to be in a religious group that expected us to do the same thing and that I'm not interested in groups that promote that kind of behavior anymore. Depending on the situation, I may ask a few questions about why they feel it's necessary to talk to me like that or say what they're saying.....then I politely say that it sounds too much like a religious group I was abused by and that I try to stay away from people and groups who remind me of the practices and beliefs of that group. There's a very nice, very sweet, very smart co-worker whom I really like but she's a devout Southern Baptist and frequently used to invite me to her church. She had no malice in her heart and was genuinely concerned about me and wanted to help in the only way she knew how. I told her that I appreciated her concern and invitations but that I was taking a break from anything religious right now. She respected that decision on my part and now we can talk more freely because she doesn't try to impose her beliefs on me or see me as a "project" or someone who needs to be saved. I just try to be honest and very clear (aka blunt) without hurting the other person's feelings. But sometimes all you can do is what Ham said and tell them to back off as forcefully as necessary.

This was posted by Janis on the Thank You Thread and I thought it was an excellent question for us to discuss here: I need to vent, if you want to go you can. A little background first. I decided to leave the Way International in 1989. It was not an easy decision for me. For me, it had to be based on God's Word as that is what kept me around for the time I was there to begin with. I did that and have not regretted my decision. What I find so sad, is that where I have grown and changed and am honest with myself and others I still find that there are people also not associated with the Way that maintain the mental attitudes that caused the division to begin with. People you think you know are hard, legalistic, religious and mean. Then they turn around and want you to feel bad or like in my case I let it get to me and I get mad and I cuss them out. And that isn't nice either and it causes more trouble. Has anybody been through this, and what did you do to not get caught in a trap? Thanks for listening and even though I try to act all tough and not let those see, it really hurts me that people feel like they have to force their beliefs on me or confrom to their ways.