Rocky

And it is abominably fallacious magical thinking and complete bulls*it.

Well, I watched an intriguing (and perhaps a bit subversive) documentary this weekend, The Lottery of Birth. A quote put up in a graphic in the movie caught my attention and made me think of this thread. Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position. -- Bertrand Russell, British author, mathematician, & philosopher (1872 - 1970) I wonder to what extent that insight makes/made us susceptible to cults. I suspect the answer is -- to a great extent. The next question becomes, what would it take to counter that susceptibility?

I think so. But how many people thought of it like that, as opposed to just thinking about "my sweet Lord?"

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/srLcDhmHn5s?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> This video, according to YouTube is from a 1971 concert. I wonder how much influence Harrison's song had in seeding the Jesus Movement.

About the REV, yes. About JS/STF, not necessarily. Yeah, well, I never opined on JS or STF... because I don't know him and don't care. Since I offered no opinion, how can I prove that? It seems more impossible than trying to disprove a negative. I also didn't opine on the REV. Because I've never read it and have no interest in doing so. I'm also not sure what it matters whether or not you will accept my lack of opinion on the two items. Cheers.:doh:/>

Your view certainly doesn't offend me... but I still disagree with you on the need to read the "REV by JS/STF" in order to develop an informed opinion on JS/STF. For me, the criteria Steve L set forth for his view is legitimate and valid. However, from a strictly logical perspective, perhaps reading the REV might be necessary in order to critically analyze that translation (or whatever you'd want to call it) of the bible. Then again, I have no dog in this fight, so to speak.

Thankfully. We're all survivors.

But is it still an emotional defense mechanism? I'm not suggesting you're wrong, just expanding the question.

Indeed... and it took major emotional trauma for me to realize that crap was messed up. Trauma in the home and in the workplace.

Well, it was posted in April 2014, has about 2,500 views... had only two thumbs up and two thumbs down. Now it has three thumbs up.

Nevertheless, you didn't come off as preachy. It's a good reminder that can't hurt to review every so often. Thanks.

:rolleyes:/>

It's perhaps a matter of defining what may take place between the ears of the people you observed being told things. Something was taking place. It wasn't simply being made aware and then holding it as such. That's not how it works. Denial is a very powerful psychological defense mechanism. "in psychiatry, a defense mechanism in which the existence of unpleasant internal or external realities is denied and kept out of conscious awareness. By keeping the stressors out of consciousness, they are prevented from causing anxiety." YOU may have been able to retain those items in your conscious awareness because they didn't cause you an extreme level of anxiety. Maybe?

Sounds like cause for being thankful you didn't marry the bloke. ;)

1) CP1 was complete BS. 2) I think you hit the nail squarely on the head about Loy's almost certain motivation for his homo rants. I say that piecing things together, NOT that I have been inside the creep's head.

Holy CRAP! There's some tremendous insight on this thread from yesterday and today, particularly the most recent posts by chockful, DWBH and skyrider.

How big was the college?

Babylon Mystery Religion on Amazon.com

My involvement with our cult began a month before I turned 20 and ended the year I graduated from college (age 31). Two years military wow, one year actual wow, one year in residence corpse. I can identify that my emotional development had been arrested and through a difficult marriage and personal study, I learned a lot of what I should probably have learned and accomplished ten years earlier. Though I survived a year in rez, I never did fully relinquish my independence. Then after a year as a wow in northern Ohio, peer pressure to conform to the whim of the minimog seemed totally unacceptable to me. Perhaps that's why when the poop paper popped, I was ready to jump ship. I went through recognizable stages during my thirties... had a wife and a kid, then just a half time kid. These days, I'm much more comfortable with my independence. I spend most (not all) of my time alone,reading and writing. My identity being a writer and a grandfather. No effing way I see myself becoming subject to anything like twi again. However, interpersonal communication skills developed during that time are coming in handy in political endeavors these days. :) So, too, I say thanks Charlene for the discussion and contributions like DWBH to provoke self-reflection and evaluation. <3 you both.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I look back and realize that my identity really began to form in high school. The extracurricular activities I participated in (mainly drama and choir... expressive arts), and some (like athletics) I only tried to participate in, were a big part of who I would become. One semester of college and I realized I wasn't really prepared for that experience, so I enlisted. While overseas, stuck on an island in the Atlantic, I first became involved with twi. The military culture put limits on the development of my self, my identity and my personality. Yet, when it came time to decide whether to re-up, I knew I was too independent for that life. Up to that point, twi wasn't a limiting factor for me. It was just good fellowship and going to a couple of ROAs... which were fun overall. Then there was the way corpse. One year in residence, leaving during interim year, then a wow year in northern Ohio. It was only then, with an 11th corpse wow family coord, that I began to realize how much bulls*it it was and that the organization was all about demanding obedience. Key word: began. I remained involved with twi after the wow year when I finally settled down to get my bachelor's degree. Friends returned from that year's ROA and started talking about the poop paper. That was 1986. Continued fellowshipping with many of the same (also now former twi people) in an independent fellowship... but it was the same format as twig. Eventually realizing that we were just doing the same thing over and over and over... for years. How freaking boring. My degree is in accounting and during my senior year at ASU, I began to realize that accountability in twi was bass-ackward from how it was in Acts. When I began reading books written by M Scott Peck, notably The Road Less Traveled, I was able to restart my own personal emotional development. Accountability remains a key concept for me as I have been following and involved in politics, including three years in a journalistic organization, for the last two and a half decades. Accountability in government and politics is a driving passion in my life. I've had some influence in some situations. I've learned that taking on the responsibilities of citizenship is both work (in some instances, hard work) and yet, very fulfilling. Btw, I struggled a lot with a condescending attitude for years, partly because I grew up with relatives telling me I was bright, partly because the culture in twi was that we were always right. Truly, people you'd like to be friends with often can't stand it when you're being condescending. I try to be humble these days... don't always succeed. Does that answer the question?

Conceptually, from vpee's observed behavior, the more blatant and obvious intentions were money, adulation and sex. I don't know that we've had people discuss any open or public statements that he may have made suggesting otherwise. "That leads me to think it's more than incidental..." is a statement based on your inference. I'm not suggesting you are either right or wrong. Just pointing out that it's an inference. Given that he was still "in charge" at the time of the Jonestown mass suicide, I suspect he would have been careful not to put himself in the same box of public perception as Jim Jones.

Nailed it.

And then there's the passage in John 16:33 where Jesus tells his disciples that regardless of anything else, s*it happens. “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” NIV And wasn't there a retemory verse from Isa 26:3 "You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you." Did Loy really trust God? My hunch is that this verse in Isaiah wasn't there for condemnation but perhaps as encouragement.

Almost thou persuadeth me... er, well really I should say that pretty much, thou hast persuaded me that the Bible is just one big story that provides (probably) billions of people with something around which to provide meaning to their lives and provide meaning to this life. When I was 20, there were people, my elders (not in my church or cult) just people who had lived a couple of decades longer than I had at that time. These folks suggested to me that truth was relative and that there are many ways to "find God." Of course, VPee addresses that issue head on in the FLAP class. Over the course of the last 40 years, so much more of life, and discussions like we see on this thread, have convinced me that there probably ARE many ways to get to heaven, if there is or will be such a thing (or place). Seriously, it has become so obvious that johniam is either a tremendous poser (pretending to be such a twi dogmatist) or is a complete loon. I say that with respect. There's no indication I see in your writing here, john, that your life is out of control in any way. It's just that your writing shows a worldview that I find so completely bizarre. OTOH, Steve L makes a solid argument with most everything I've seen him post (especially on this thread). But I can't help but wonder/realize that, in the context of myths (many myths are true, but as I understand it now, they all are stories that help people understand social and psychological aspects of life). I wonder how genuinely it really matters who is right? Granted, I accept that the common understanding at gsc about our common experience with twi is that twi was not a genuine heavenly utopia, rather a subculture built on a charismatic, narcissistic and perhaps psychopathic character's storytelling. But other than that, what does it really matter which meaning a given greek word is correct?