MRAP

Thanks for providing the link DWBH, I would ask for your bottom line but I will hold that question until after I watch the stuff. Evidently you dislike John Lynn, what's up with that? I ain't protecting anybody, you just seem to have an issue with him.

Nazism executed controlled/selective abortion. Strong twi families/fellows must procreate but the rest of you minions, abort to your hearts content because kids on your budget mean less money coming to the HQ. Maybe I am totally wrong but it's how I am seeing it because I no longer see this topic in an isolated window but through a larger sceme of things. Did vpw/HQ really think that deep into the future? I only think so because they realized their control over people.

So DWBH, you certainly don't think that "keedz" these days in twi are any smarter than the rest of us when we were that age, do you? Life in twi is the university of hard knocks. These keedz have time to recover, just like the rest of us; it's like heroin: the longer on it, the harder the recovery. It will all be part of "their" growing and character process - what GSC has made available here is a source of education but recall, how did we respond to anti-twi information at the time - we called it devilish. There are alot of organizations out there alot worse than twi, hopefully, they will find their "fed-up" point and call it game and then get on with their lives. You are so correct, let the leadership find out what they did at the Bema.

Holy dang WordWolf, what you just wrote sounds like what we did (tried) in Iraq and Afghanistan: basically it is a nation building concept from a grass-roots perspective. The GSC is an unbeleivable site - stuff posted here is so profound and from some very well versed biblical minds. I love it.

So, all that $ we gave to nefarious causes (twi). Well I trust GOD that he knew our hearts and that goes towards our accounts. Now, I/we know better and choose who we donate to. Bottom line: just give and don't try to figure out the %. Rocky is right on in my thinking with the verse, be cheerfull about it. If you ain't, then don't and find a place and amount that makes you cheerfull.

How was your identity "changed"; that's the premise of this thread and I only assume that it's in reference as to how twi changed or formulated our personal identity. That's a very deep question and depends on how long we were in or affected by twi and how old and long we were outa twi before we began to question as to "who we are". It quite commonly comes down to how we ID ourselves at this point in our lives. How we ID ourselves to other folks may be quite differenct then how we ID ourselves to ourselves. People are looking for career paths and titles to simplify the process of pigeon holing you into a catagory - that's totally wrong. We should ID ourselves as that we are most proud of regarding ourselves, not what out parents list us as. In answer to the question of the thread, I don't have a clue as to my ID, none of the things in the past matter: I only state to folks that "these" are the things I like to do. TWI affected my current ID but I did not stick long enough with twi to define it. God sees me in the person of His son, Jesus Christ, I expect, that is who I am.

Why the Baseball metaphor, was not vpw a pro-basketball player on a Wisconsin team prior to the NBA? Just a note, the baseball scenario fits quite correctly. I really gotta google that vpw and pro basketball thing - just seems I don't give a dang that much.

There is nothing better than teaching the word to folks in your home - yeh, lotsa work and other crap to deal with. The main burn I always had was that there was that 15% ABS to HQ and then you also had to suck up the expenses of running the twig. After leaving twi in 77 and no longer providing a 15% ABS to HQ, the pain of running a twig - oops, a Bible study/believer's meeting became alot more tollerable. Needless to say, when twi came back into the area and folks in our group felt the guilt to having left twi, the little Bible study thing my wife and I were conducting went to the side. That's O.K., it all worked out for us and we did not leave our beleiving in the Bible. But Yes, on the WOW field, no wonder there was ever little left to pay the rent and buy food. Lord knows, you needed to trust him cause there was no money left for decent vehicle or health insurance. Yeh, INSURANCE, if you had that stuff you were definetly not believing in GOD - does anyone recall that vpw said that if you had health/cancer insurance it was a guarantee that you would get cancer. Bottom Line: you take care of the needs of the local believers first (includes yourselves) and what's left of that "15%", then go ahead and tithe that to the priesthood. {Anger withheld}

My experiences are a Lutheran up-bringing and confirmation and after leaving for the military visited a few other denominations (to include Roman Catholic) where it was also mostly sermon oriented. Military chaplains though tended to be more needs oriented and more Bible oriented.

Well Steve, it does say alot - sometimes I think that maybe I had just imagined hearing the concept but my wife re-assured me that she heard it as well. We never did get an abortion, we were well outa twi prior to our first child - like that would have made a difference anyway - by that time we realized that much of what was taught was crap and did not know what was truth from twi. Thanks for the post.

I still wonder about what vpw taught about abortion and God breathed life(this is not a discussion about abortion). I thought how hard it would be to travel around with kids in twi (an Army career was hard enough but they paid for the moves). Here's what I wonder: did vpw's advocating abortion, when in opposition to many other religeous/moral values of so many orthodox Christian folks allow them the freedom to continue on the field, stay in twi and have more $ to give to twi. If all or any part of that is correct then the twi evil goes deeper than imagineable. As I said, I still wonder and that goes back over 40 years when I first heard it - at the time I found it hard to fathom and still do based on the "breath life" rationale. Kids change the direction of our lives quite often so that's why I thought this was an appropriate forum to bring up the topic. No accussations here against twi/vpw but just wonder if anyone else ever had these thoughts or knowledge that disputes/supports it (yes, I know, there was a family corp).

I think the Word states a return on your giving, if not in "this" life, then later; I prefer the later option. Just give and forget about twi, they are mostly greedy for themselves at the top while the miniuns who work in the trenches only keep sending them $. What a great statement about Christianity. We have been screwed over by twi in so many ways, taking our money, our youth or family values.

I would think that by this time we have established that twi/vpw preached a false premise about believing. We have also established that what you pray/believe for must be in accordance with what God wants as well. We have established that God is true to his promises and that we must pray/believe/sit in accordance with what is available from His promises - which is alot and more than we could think to stash in our "prayer availability file". So, are we done with this thread are is there more for us to bloviate or dis twi/vpw about - sometimes, I just don't want to hear about twi/vpw but rather the folks here that have done some very good research on this topic. It has been enlightening and changed my prayer activety - as I posted earlier. Now, no one responded to my question about negative believing (consistent negative attitude) and fear. Direct me please to another thread or the need to start a new one. And hey, let's not get upset if someone addresses us incorrectly by not splitting the name correctly or using caps or mispelling, we are all more than that. Bless you all, this has been a great thread.

More semantics: Should. Your abundant share "should" be at least equal to what the govenment takes outa your gross pay or it "should" be at least 15%, which ever is greater. That's the dogma we were told to follow and teach for years back in the 70's. The only asking I can recall on the WOW field were WOW families asking their landlords for an extension on the late rent. Do the math of a typical WOW family of working at near or slightly above minimum wage at 30 hours a week (our mandated work limit back then)and gave 15% to twi HQ. Rarely did any WOW family have all members working at the same time. A vow of poverty - Oh, now I know why they taught us the ingredients of familia and only to use water on it and never milk (I cheated).

Power in the hands of nymphomaniac and sex hungry corp folks is not folly, it's worse, it's evil. I can understand the use of the term folly waysider since that term in the age written held a more nefarious conotation. One promise kept by the twi leadership was that us WOWs on the field would be able to receive all the seminars/classes at no cost; right, it didn't cost us anything. If you worked and then had to prep the location for the class it was a bit difficult to totally focus on the class being tired and worn to the thread. At no cost: now there's something you can take to the bank.

Thanks Steve Lortz, I for one think I have a handle on this now (read all my posts and you will see); do we ever really ever get a handle on it all? so, the flip side: what about the concept of being consistently negative all the time and is "Fear" a negative believing. Given all that has been said, I ain't seeing fear being a spiritual thing but a self fullfilling professy based on our "mental". What's the verse: the thing feared comes upon you. Well, was it "came" or "comes", seems that would make all the difference. Maybe the need for a seperate thread or the need to be referenced to an existing discussion on the topic. Thanks all, I did not start this thread but sure as dang learned alot from it: I just had to write dang since I want to see how the "system" changes it. Stop what you are doing and take account if you are smiling, it's a test of yourself.

I didn't mind doing the work but was upset because others should have helped, the family especially. Being required to get up early and the rest of the family sleeping in did not set well with both my brother and I - that crap sat with us for - I guess, all time. So when the branck leader talked about the tightness of a family, I knew she did not have a clue. After that WOW year, I stayed there to continue spreading the word even though all the good folks were gone (Corp, etc), either way, in my mind was that I would continue in the mission but would never crap on folks. Then, we got a new set of WOWs in a couple of cities within 30 miles of us with a 5th corp branch leader that I had to answer to, things did not go well between her and I. Needless to say, in here WOW "families", there were no classes ran - yet she was able to break up at least one marriage of a WOW (sex with the guy); luckily, I turned down her advances, maybe had I succumbed, that marriage would not have been attacked. Bottom line here: Way Corp on the field are predators, complete power and minuns at their beckoned service. Sorry folks, once again, off topic.

I still believe, I still pray and I still SIT but adress my "intent" towards the promises of the Father (the promises He gave us in the Bible), no longer getting "too" focused on a particular. Not sure I am tracking with your last post Bolshevik, I think the whole matter is a bit more convoluted than that, besides, I don't much care for answers/posts with a quip photo and assigned statement to the photo - nothing personal.

I admit, I have not read all the posts on this thread yet but I will. Word Wolf said in his very first post that the book: The Way Living in Love by Elaine Whiteside was a commercial. I agree totally. I was in twi a couple of years before I bought and read the book and during the reading, I realized, that it was not the opinion of someone on the outside looking in, it was a cosmetic painting of propoganda by the Way. I don't think I was alone, that book elivated eye brows everywhere. In hind sight, I think that book engrained doubt about twi. It was sooooo over the top. Ealier today, I was going through alot of my old library: some to trash/re-cycle, some to the local library and some I held on to; I held all the twi stuff, not sure why, I won't read any of that stuff anymore - I don't need that many reminders on my early age ignorance. I even got Uncle Harry's book, not sure I want to revisit that either - not sure where his heart was when he wrote it. Hey, if you are looking for an old twi book, hit me and I will get it off to you.

Hey DogLover, can you elaborate more on the current Gunnison scenario. I had heard twi sold it but did they - can we expect checks for the $ we invested. And what's this about Craig still being in the mix - thought he was an assistant manager at a fast food joint. Yeh, I was still around when they burned the Emporia chunk of dried wood pulp. I remember how proud they were in twi when gunnison was "purchased". An old twi twig leader I went on the field with in North Carolina (Kevin.G)got in good with the top family and took on an administrative position at gunnison but by the time I heard that news I was on the out with twi. Not sure how my post even relates to the premise of this thread, oh yeh, here goes: got so tired being in the branch leaders WOW family, constantly cleaning a house (not allowed to live in) in order to host those seminars/classes. Only the "ladies" of the family were allowed to live there, my brother and I had to live in a two room flat (shared a bathroom with numerous flop house folks) and walk or ride our bikes there to the "Branch House" early every day to shovel snow and then sit outside in the cold waiting for someone to finally get up to let us in outa the cold, yeh, a really tight family. The summer was better, only had to mow the lawn. Yes, my brother and I were just a couple of bitches. Hey, the branch leader was 4th corp, she was hard core (pun intended) Do I sound - disgruntled?

Get real teachmevp, You said: "Most of the problems we face continue to be problems only as long as we refuse to prefer others over self, and we continue to insist upon our right to be positioned on the top shelf." Did you ever have a wife and kids. You can sacrifice everything for spouse and children and look for nothing in return because you know it's just the right/Christian thing to do AND YOU STILL have family issues. So I don't know where you got that crap but you better go back to the source and ask some very pointed questions or you give me the source and I will ask those questions. Now I mostly enjoy and am encouraged by your posts but this one seems a bit off target. So teachmevp, I don't want you to just list my post (like you are answering it) and then go off on your planned sermon that does not address my question. Come down from the pulpit and speak with me.

If you take the beleif that there will be a final battle of good vs evil and it includes spiritual beings and resurected (raptured) Christians that God thought about the needs of His army, that the inclusion of numerous born again soldiers/Christians would greatly augment that army. I'm O.K. with that if that's what it takes. Take into consideration, was this all part of the OT profesy plan about His son Jesus, his sacrifice to make this augmentation army possible. I am honored to be a soldier in that army.

All in all, God really went to the n'th extreme to ensure our salvation. What love for us, all the OT profesy fulfilled and the horrible death of his son; it's quite hard to fathom all of that. A bit of guilt here, God had to do that cause we are so damnible sinfull. No, not blaming God for making us human. In the long run, don't we gotta fight in the end to overcome the evil of Lucifer. Again, that's a forum thread for another day.

This is probably covered elsewhere but here are the questions: the college in Kansas (Emporium) and Gunderson in Colorado, were any loans taken out on those (I thought so about Gunderson). Either way, it was our abundant sharing that bought those properties - no wonder we should not have taken out loans to buy our own properties, then we might not tithe as much. To this day, I give, but not to TWI, I give it to various Christian outreach organizations and to military and veteran ogranizations in addition to feeding the poor, etc. Either way, I am giving and the word says I get blessed, either now or later; Jesus can fill me in at the Bema if I chose poorly. That said, as spectrum49 and skyrider commented on: I also have ownership of my own property - paid off (not wasting money on rent with nothing to show after years of servitude). If I had stayed in twi, that would not have happened, bar none. I now have something to pass on to my kids. Sorry, did not alot of OT folks own expanses of land, won't get into the details of how some came about it - that's a forum thread for another day. I know that for years it was respect for stuff in Uncle Harry's book to not go into debt: not so much for respect but I took that all as "gospel". I mean really, were did the Wierwille farm originate, who actually paid for that, was it inherited. Bottom line folks, just be smart with the money, stay within your means, bless God and take care of your family and give where giving is needed. You know what, if the heart is right, let Jesus enlighten when you get to the bema.

Well let me say this has been a very life changing thread, at least to me. Twinky has laid out some excellent base concepts and things to not get wrapped around the axle on, as it were. Allan and Steve have been outstanding in splitting "threads" as it were. I said, "life changing" and I mean it. I still beleive in beleiving: I beleive that beleiving works but see a change in the manner in which I beleive and also pray to include the use of SIT as part of that prayer process. I no longer "think" that I can beleive to bring something to pass, unless of course, that is God's will and intent. God has made many promises to us. My change in prayer "beleiving" is that it's much more of a thanking process for those things he wants for us in our lives anyway - that's to His glory. I can SIT, which is also giving thanks. The big change, it's now more trust In God to fulfill his promises and the "beleiving" for the "event or thing" is no longer on my shoulders, it's God's job to fulfill his promises and my requirement is to trust Him to accomplish it. In reality, it does not change much of my prayer process other than my mind set during the prayer. I still continue to SIT as I drift off to sleep, not really thinking about much other than the tongue itself and God's goodness, knowing all the things promised by SIT that it's a great commo and it places my mind at ease knowing I am in commo with the Father. No, I am not making this into a SIT thread but to me, SIT and beleiving and prayer are quite interwoven. In closing, I just want to say thanks to all the posters on this thread, I found it a help. Now, if I got this all screwed up or you can provide me further comment, I would appreciate those comments. As normally is done: if this thread gets moved to a different forum, please make it well known, maybe state it on the "shout box", everybody sees that.