MRAP

Thanks everyone, I will check elsewhere.

So RAF, wouldn't worry about throwing the "off topic" card, hell, you and TLC were already off topic yourselves if you ID the topic from the start of the thread. So, what does RAF say: we go on with the thread as is or do we jump?

This thread has quite a history and also, quite a diversity. Some issues here have been entertained that normally would have been directed to past threads on the topic, i.e. SIT, yet, the discussions continued (seems to have been a breech in GSC protocol, like the double dog dare). Regardless, the intercourse is well worth reading and I especially appreciate the recent discertation of TLC and RAF, noting RAF continues to talk from a position of knowledge without reserve and I see that as appropriate - not to let knowledge of something, even though you don't beleive it anymore, become dormant. I sure hope that made sense. I respect RAF's comments, it now takes on a honest broker perspective - ain't the first time I said that. So, what's my point, given I am now into the 3d paragraph, it's the recent discussion on SIT and are you speaking a language. Well, I "think" that it's supposed to be a language and one the speaker does not know (and I have been exposed to many) but how "proper" does it need to be in accordance with what modern linguistitions (it's a word, maybe) think. The language may not fit modern terminoloy of text (syntax is the correct term I think). Thus, how can it be tested? Actually, I wish it could. I have been told that your "tongue" can change, well, having SIT'd for nearly 50 years, I have lost track of how many tongues I have spoken. At one point it seemed I tossed around 3 different tongues in the same period of time - not mixed at the same time of course (maybe I was more spiritual then, that's only a joke on my part, only Jesus knows). I have wished I had recorded myself speaking in tongues in the past and now wonder if it's correct to do it or then, I think not, is it a proof or dis-proof of anything = kinda like reading your wife's email account = distrust: does that make sense to any of you? In recent year/s, it seems to be only one but some older words no longer are spoken and newer words become spoken. Now, if I were to go back and read all the past threads on SIT'n then I would see if it were foolish for me to even write such things here but since the discussion has become open, especially between knowledgable folks such as TLC and RAF, I feel comfortable asking their opinion on my statements.

I am thankfull to be reading the posts on this thread: how do I say "good" and thanks. Please do not bring in vpw's junk into the discussion, he's dead to me, yeh, he's dead but I mean the spew he spread is dead. I am outside your research expertise but enjoy the fruits of your work: thank you. I read religeously.

Doubtfull I will spend much time on this forum in the future but let me set the record straight on my comments regarding Mr.Fugit. I spent a wonderful evening with the man discussing numerous issues of life and not just twi, I think we were drinking long neck Point Beer, at least I was, that I kept in the basement, he was quite different than most of the twi folks that traveled through the area. Not sure where I gave the impression that I was dissing DF but is it that I lumped him in with part of the fly in folks from twi to the area, I also recall that I noted that we were informed he was an evangelist, which he did not seem as such (like we would recognize a true gift ministery), thus bringing up his name since this forum thread started focusing on gift ministeries aside from ordination. It seems some on GSC think I am a twi troll, no, I am not or that I am a follower of twi splinters, yes, I track that stuff and adhere to some of it but also ask questions regarding their teachings, etc., I never tried to hide that but why am I attacked for doing that? I know that I lash out but that's mostly because of the hate (yes, "hate", is probably the correct word) of those splinter groups that gets directed at me or anyone else that may seem to have ties to the ol'e twi teachings or folks who had past association with twi. Like I started the post in this forum thread and forum in general, I will just stay away as it's illogical to post anything that might be perceived to be pro-twi, though I am not. Might catch you on the doctrinal forum.

Let's lighten up a bit, since this thread has digressed and turned into a farce, that's Scottish for an f'n foot. You say the word for keester (foot) and it becomes (foot). You say the word for feces (dang) and it becomes (dang). Go ahead TLC, we are both new here, spell out a cuss word and see what the filter does. Oh, "WTF" is not recognized (yet) by the filter. Hey, let's try penis, betcha it becomes Richard.

TLC, did you say "arse" - was that the filter or are you Scottish? Watch this, I will write the word for feces: dang; now watch the filter, I love doing this. Cheap Tricks, take em when you can.

If this has been previously discussed elsewhere on GSC, please point me to the place. Otherwise, this discussion between Jesus and Peter (John 21:15-17), what's your take on the primary purpose of what Jesus spoke and what, if any, were the underlying meanings? Given this is the resurrected Jesus, did he tell Peter anything then that he could not have said to Peter previously? I can google these topics and get numerous opinions but instead, I post it here as I have a great respect for the knowledge available on GSC - no, I ain't patronizing.

I disagree Rocky, it is elitism, if not, then why all the tit-for-tat on credentials. As far as that confidence thing goes, I think the veteran posters here on GSC have confidence in their twi accomplishments, time at twi and time on GSC, period. I have said this before: GSC has become its' own little cult. That's OK but know thyself - should be easy with all the folks here that are experts on cults. IMO, that last statement is only partially correct, most folks here are just old and angry. Some have a right to that anger, take DWBH for example, if I were him, I would also be angry for having thrown away 13 years that could and should have been better spent advancing a career. I don't mean to point out DWBH, it's just a recent example, there are numerous statements on GSC that demonstrate lost time in lives and loves. I think most folks on GSC are good people, otherwise I would have signed out long ago. There does exist a pack mentality, I was warned about the "piling on" long ago, it's not much different then crowd control: one person throws a rock and then all throw rocks (stoning).

Yeh Waysider, when my Mom said: "fight nice", it usually meant "drop the ball bats".

You said: "Corpse", was that intended or just a Freudian slip.

The longer I hang around GSC the more patterns become observable, especially when the big guns have a "misunderstanding/difference of opinion". Now here are observations (IMHO) boys and girls (yeh, right, we are all in our 50's and 60's): If you have "credentials", you know: years in "rez", were in the corp, are a corp grad, twi ordained, vpw endowed with a gift ministery/s or any combination of that list you think you have "seniority/carte blanche" on GSC and the rest of us are petty minnions. You stink of hypochrisy: you act like elletists, just like you were back in twi; you use GSC to dis twi but then vaunt your twi credentials to gain clout on GSC. You have lost credibility and worse, if this is an "anti" twi site, you have provided twi with all the ammo it needs to show that GSC is a bunch of bickering, post twi heriticks who could not make it in twi. Sheesh - look what egos from a bunch of old burned out folks can accomplish.

DWBH, if DF was 5th corp then why in the late fall of 1975 when he "visited" us (his interim corp year) were we informed (by the chain of command) that he was an "evangelist"? I found DF to be quire personable and "non corp/hq" but he did not provide much in the area of his quoted expertise. Then again, maybe he was genuine and I only saw folks in the beer goggles of twi expectations. Regardless, this thread is about ordination and somewhat about gift ministries, so, my question remains: was DF ordained outside of the corp and did he have a gift ministry. It's all moot at this point, IMHO, DF was genuine and only hooked up with twi since it provided an avenue and resources for what he was destined to do/be in life. Sitting on a porch late in the evening, long after a twig, he and I spoke of many things about life goals, the more base desires of the natural man but not at all about twi, et.al. I am not even sure why he was there - I expect there were others in the crowd he affected and I did not have a clue; as the twig leader, if it were a twi "sanctioned" type event, DF would have worked through me but if it were all genuine, then DF would just follow his gut and not follow any of the twi rules (kinda makes more sense now having thought through it years later). DWBH, you seem to think that I miss-informed folks regarding DF = WTF are you referring to?

A husband and wife in our limb (personal friends) were provided an opportunity to go be part of HQ staff, they went and we never heard from them again (circa 1976). As we heard, all was well with them but they cut off all communications with us, their close friends; what's up with that? Oh, by the way, Waysider, that's the most you have said in one breath since I have been on GSC - yes, this is quite the thread for those of us on the outside looking in, for those who were on the inside looking out, their life options were even more limited.

As I recall Wordwolf, veep's justification for aborting was that the child (unborn) did not qualify as a "person" until it had "breathed" = breath life. I beleived that crap for years and eventually decided it "was" crap. It was that part of twi dogma that made me question the rest of their teachings, aside from the other reasons I decided to leave twi. Yes, I know I am off thread but despite what any of us rationalize about the topic of abortion, my opinion is based on science of which I have a master's degree, yet, that means nothing, numerous discertations abound on the issue above my pay grade. Back to the point: vpw only used the breath verse to justify abortion, though he did not "mention" abortion, only that with that breath, life begins. Word play, in my opinion. In accordance with GSC rules, we are not to get into political issues: this thread really brushes that line, excellent discussion.

Folks, there have been alot of statements anti the REV translation that I enjoy reading by JS, et.al. and I have asked you all to point out the specifics on the doctrinal forum and we can discuss those issues but except for Wordwolf I have heard nothing. Not quite sure if Wordwolf and I finished a discussion since I was off the internet periodically for extended periods (that's not a valid excuse) - I need to revisit past stuff on the doctrinal forum to ensure past issues have been resolved. Last I recall, the last doctrinal forum discussion I introduced was that of the Caiaphas prophecy. I realize that JS has past twi ties and that makes him and anything he does a GSC target but please, looking past that, take a look at the work that has been done on the REV and respond. I know this is a personal request. If the research is bad, I want to know. Yes, I am a little turd on other forums but when it comes to the doctrinal forum: I be all eyes and ears.

DWBH, you posted to me earlier in this thread: How many twit ordinations did you attend in your brief 5 year stint with twit from 72-77? You state you "now see it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding" I was in rez from 73-76, 3 of the 5 years of your involvement, and I never heard of ANYTHING you describe. How so? Well DWBH, maybe you never heard of that little game cause you were in "rez" during that period and not out on the field. Don't throw your "I be corp" or "I was in rez" stuff at me: that dog don't hunt anymore. Most of my headaches in the field came from you corp and hq folks who busted into our areas and provided their great accolades and dissed us for lack of PFAL classes and then left like a whirlwind. I don't even remember the number of you corp folk I sponsored over the years and with only one exception did I get a thankyou. So DWBH, you were 4th corp, that would make your interim year the summer of 1974 to summer of 1975: what did you do that interim year or did you do your "in rez" years back to back, oops, I see, you stayed at HQ,et.al. ("I was in rez from 73-76) you wrote. So now DWBH, I understand you hung around twi for 13 years - I don't see that as any badge of honor but quite the opposite; why did it take you so long to figure out what was going on, espcially given your "in rez" view of it all. Go for it DWBH, you wasted 8 more years of your life in twi than I did. Actually, I am not even sure you (or TLC for that matter) were ever in the corp; so,you were 4th corp: who was Cathy G.?

Really, if those of us who fought in the trenches over the years (just WOW or other programs) are not as enlightened as you posting "corp folk" then fine. If I had only 5 years in twi and not 13 and am thus a lesser poster then fine. If a poster says anything that even closely relates to past/present twi teachings and then gets piled on by the GSC establishment (long time posters)then fine. If you chase folks away that disagree with your dogma, what do you have, well you won't have any fresh meat. I have only been on this site for 10 months and in that time and also reading some past threads I see a pattern of some of the veteran GSCer's going into pack attack mode. Much like TLC, I put a target on my back from the start - I don't agree with all TLC has written but I see the same "cyote" pack attack mentality by some GSC vets. But, of course, I have digressed. My point is that this thread, as well as other threads, have become "corp exclusive threads" to the point of corp experience credibility. Sheesh!

Simple question, Donny Fugit: he was not a corp grad or ordained by vpw as far as I know but us minions/WOWs on the field were told that he was an "Evangelist", i.e. gift ministry evangelist. So, when DF came to our branch, we revered him as that and followed his lead on witnessing since he was an evangelist. Bottom Line: did twi ordain non corp folk or simply recognize that non corp grads could have a gift ministry (am I just mixing apples and oranges?). Back in the day, 1976, I recall that DF was a "special person", I need say no more on DF. Question: Did/Do all corp grads get ordained? It's understood that all corp grads are not provided a gift ministry (at that time), unless God deems it but may later get the gift ministry. Hey, I am just ignorant, non-corp folk seeking information - not like any of it matters at this point in life.

This is a late response: I have been working on renovating a house that I have been living in during the process and just got internet/cable set up here today; all prior access to the internet was relegated to crucial issues such as banking, important e-mailings and such. That said, I want to thank you Tzaia for recommending the NRSV and I have been working on my Greek for a number of years: getting it right is on my bucket list - when I listen/talk/etc. I attempt to think and how I would say it in Greek (there's a big difference between the modern and ancient Greek as you well know). Tzaia, since it is evident that you are familiar with the REV I am asking that you point out some of the problems with it and post a thread on the doctrinal site - as I said, since Iv'e not had internet access, there's alot of new stuff here on GSC that I have not gleaned yet and maybe stuff has been posted but did not see it yet, if I missed it, please direct me. The "REV" request is not just addressed to Tzaia, if anyone else has issues with the REV (and that includes you DWBH), please post those on the doctrinal forum. You never know, it might invite discourse from outside the GSC insiders (whom you know monitor GSC). BTW all - Happy New Year! God bless you all and that includes you non-believers (gotta read that "is athiesm a religion" thread by RAF) - hope that's correct as I was just gleaning to catch up on GSC.

I think the question is valid: Why twi is not as big in the today as it was in the 70's. I think the answer is obvious - we are all smarter (us old folk) and the younger folk don't have the search for truth motivation. Many of us left so thus, our kids were not forced to join to twi. Logically, with the advent of mass info available, people realize the problems with twi. There are still folks out there seeking spiritual enlightenment that includes Christianity but they are more discerning. Now that's just me saying it so that's my answer to the posted question. I also wonder how I would respond today as opposed to back in 1971 to the sales pitch of twi.

Well my first question DWBH is: what is/are "stiffies and titfers"? I see you create a plethora of words in order to dis folks with whom you disagree or just plain dislike. So, in your statement I owe you an "opinion" regarding a pilgrimage to the REV: last I looked at all my accounts, I owe nothing to this world, all debts are up to date. Are you asking me why I read the REV? It's not the only Biblical translation/s that I reference but why is it that the REV and STF really lights a fire under your butt? I don't know if you disagree with the "stuff" in the REV or if you just have an issue with the folks in STF or me and folks like me. So, what has been said in the REV that you have a tiff with? DWBH, throw out some examples and maybe we can have a discussion on the Doctrinal forum. So far, all I see, which may include other readers, is that you attack entities that put forth Biblical information based upon the fact that they had prior affiliation with twi. As far as folks in STF ripping off $ from folks, then please provide some credible proof. I would actually want to know the "FACTS", you know, court records, realestate transfers, tax info, etc. There are alot of Biblical groups out there who are more than willing to accept my donations so I would ask that you comment upon such organizations as the ADF, CRF, Open Doors, St.Joseph's, etc. I only say that because you appear to be all worried about folks ripping us off - are you or is it only relegated to those with past twi affiliation? Is it about facts and such about all "Christian" charitable and out-reach organizations or are you only motivated to attack twi - well I understand that is the function of GS but that same attack mind set is also directed at twi splinter groups. Well DWBH, if someone has a hunger for Biblical teaching and is also willing to donate/tithe to such organizations, whom would you suggest is the best source? You can't just dis without providing options - well, I suppose you can - that's what you do. Just give it your best shot DWBH, I don't expect an honest response from you, your agenda is quite obvious: verbal abuse without providing any assistance. I am not a Lutheran and not a Trinitarian but celebrated Christmas Eve at a Lutheran church: the pastor was fantastic. Yes, a bit of nostalgia but also it was part of good family time. Why do I bring this up if you ask: because I am looking for the Lutheran version of GS, you know, a recovering Lutheran cause I want to go on that site and dis Lutherans 24/7 - am sure some of you will get the joke but not all.

Thanks Ron.G, that's a good one (I can identify with it all), I copied it to send to a friend, hope that does not break the law (copy rights you know).

Rocky, thanks for posting the video. Hey, no problem with the background noise. It was good to watch/listen as it was pretty in-sinc with issues we have overcome, thus, it affirmed much of what we experienced in that process. In my case, it's about 40 years too late, yet, all that crap that still sits in my head can use some more healing. The video helped because it was not about anger, that crap burns you up, the video provided a calmness. Again Rocky, thanks.

Would it not be a blessing if TWI provided a genuine demonstration of the word of God rather than enhancing personal greed within the folks of TWI's ranks. If that would ever become reality, I would join once again with TWI but alas,I am not holding my breath. As I see it, TWI is bringing Christian fellowship to folks and I applaud TWI for that but will TWI continue to prostitute these folks for their loyalty/commitment to TWI? Is there ever going to be a movement that brings folks to the word and then does not attempt to take advantage of them = please, if you out there know of such an organization, I would like to know. Thus, little local Bible study/support groups would seem to be the best option and not the: "Word over the World" type of movement. Just me and just saying. Merry Christmas and yes, I know it ain't September.