WordWolf

I heard the same- even after LEAVING TWI.

Probably "Promise-Keepers." They hold each other accountable for honoring their commitments, noting that they are not "Promise-MAKERS", they are "Promise-KEEPERS." The sad part is that there's lots of UNBELIEVERS who have no difficulty understanding keeping themselves from sinful behavior on the grounds that it's harmful to themselves. They're called "Straight Edge." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Straight_edge "In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs." "Originally, straight edge was most closely associated with hardcore punk which developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s" Interesting-while vpw was trying to get the hippie Jesus People to sin, there were punk rockers at the same time abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and promiscuous sex. Except for possibly the drugs (vpw didn't take them, he just drugged women), it almost sounds like an anti-vpw movement- HE chain-smoked, drank alcohol daily in his "coffee mug" and used mints all day to hide the breath, and tried his hardest to engage in promiscuous sex. http://www.straightedge.com/whatissxe.html "People who are straight edge do not smoke, do drugs or consume alcohol. There are no dietary or religious beliefs tied to straight edge contrary to media coverage." "The basic beliefs that drugs and alcohol were not needed and should be rejected. That one should live against the grain of popular society and live by rules and standards from themselves and not the ones dictated by society." Without a single verse of Scripture, they figured out that they should ignore the world's standards and act by standards that avoided behavior of self-harm....which, of course, meant they skipped on much sinful behavior. Many young Christians say the same (I've communicated with them in the last few decades.) The main exceptions I've known, actually, are twi and ex-twi. "If the world was flat I'd grind the edge To the positive youth my heart I pledge X on my hand now take the oath To positive youth to positive growth To positive minds, to pure clean souls These will be all my goals." Sure doesn't remind me of the "do as you fool-well please" vpw position. These SECULARISTS seem to have a healthier "ministry" than this supposed "godly" man. He was LOOKING for orgies. These people sound like they'd either flee one, or-possibly- break one up like Jesus and the moneychangers. http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Straight-Edge "1. Refrain from illicit substances, such as alcohol, illegal drugs, and tobacco products. Straight-edgers reject the drug/alcohol lifestyle and instead choose not to pollute the body. However, occasional consumption of controlled amounts of alcohol are acceptable to some straight-edgers." So, sXe people either avoid all alcohol, or the more moderate will tolerate SOME drinking but condemn DRUNKENNESS. That's also the Biblical position. "2. Respect your body. Contrary to common belief about hardcore punk, the straight-edge lifestyle in no way promotes self-harm of any kind. This means no cutting, burning, or harming yourself." Again, sXe people, by using reason and logic, ended up on the same side as Scripture- respect your body and take care of it, that's good stewardship. "3.Abstain from promiscuity. This means that you shouldn't engage in casual hookups, one-night stands, etc." Without a moral basis beyond reason and logic, they hit on the Scriptural position again. Mind you, these 3 rules would have made sXe thoroughly unwelcome wherever vpw was running things. vpw often "talked a good talk" in public-since he KNEW what behavior was wrong- but for vpw, the reality was to COVER HIS TRACKS and SIN WHENEVER HE WANTED. "4. Listen to straight-edge bands. This cannot be stressed enough. If you're straight-edge, then you should also listen to and appreciate the music. Start off with Minor Threat, then look for some related bands if you like them. 5. Learn the history of straight-edge. Research about the music, people, etc." As a secular movement, they have no "Bible" to teach them morals- but their lyrics pass them along. So, to keep the movement alive, they listen to lyrics that teach good morals, and seek to learn the history of their movement, which is a good idea. Oddly enough, you may notice vpw did his best to hide from Christian history, except for a few moments- after the last book of the Bible was penned, there's a history blackout until the Council of Nicaea, then there's another history blackout until the Protestant Reformation and William Tyndale, then there's another history blackout until 1942 with vpw's supposed promise, then another history blackout (even of his OWN LIFE) until he meets with the Jesus People and hijacks the hippies around 1968-1969. Personally, I think a lot of it is LAZINESS- vpw skipped Church history when in various seminaries. He's as good as said it was all useless. He also skipped Bible languages when in various seminaries. He's as good as said he's learned BETTER than they could teach as a layman. ========================== Forgot to link Promise-Keepers.... http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about "Since its founding in 1990, Promise Keepers’ mission has been to ignite and unite men to become warriors who will change their world through living out the Seven Promises. Now, we have expanded our mission to encompass the entire Body of Christ. We’re still challenging men; however, we’re adding ministry to women and young adults—the family!" "Many people in the Church today are Biblically illiterate." "PK’s goal is to ignite a revolution that will instill passion for hearing, obeying and daily meditating in the Word of God." "To those who want to be part of the answer to the moral and spiritual decay in America; to those who desire their church to be a vibrant example of God’s love; to those who want to reach their community, their city and their world for Christ – the message of Promise Keepers is more timely, relevant, and vital than ever before." http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/7-promises "PEOMISE 1 A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy Spirit. PROMISE 2 A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises. PROMISE 3 A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual purity. PROMISE 4 A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical values. PROMISE 5 A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church by honoring and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his time and resources. PROMISE 6 A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity. PROMISE 7 A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (see Matthew 28:19-20)." Their summarized beliefs are here: http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/statement-of-faith Their unabridged beliefs (plus chapter and verse) are here: http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/statement-of-faith/statement-of-faith-with-scripture-references Those who flee in fear as soon as the word "Trinity" is spoken will find Promise Keepers to be vile. The rest of us, who can actually read the rest of the page, will find much to commend them for. "The Gospel is good news, the very best news anyone can hear. Children can understand it; it is so profound that the wisest theologians will never exhaust its riches. The Gospel announces that God loved the world so profoundly that He gave His Son to die on the cross for lost sinners. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins. Christ’s resurrection makes ours possible. Whoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is the only Savior, the one and only mediator between God and humanity, the only hope of the world." "The Bible is the revealed Word of God, given in and through the words of human writers whom the Holy Spirit inspired and guided. The Bible is truthful in all that it affirms and without error as originally given by God. The Bible tells us what we need to know about God, His law, His salvation, and how we should live. The Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and life. It alone is the final authority establishing all Christian doctrine." etc.

If you start with the postulate AUTOMATICALLY that vpw pleased God, you end up with ideas like "God helped a sinner not get caught sinning, aka God's guilty of 'Aiding and Abetting' the very things He condemned." If you start with postulates like "pfal was God-breathed", (which John has not said that I am aware of), then you end up with ideas like "God told vpw to plagiarize". If you begin by taking false information as your starting point, your "given" in formal logic, the rest of your process will be in error since you started with error.

Don't forget- "bless patrol" was a PLAN B. vpw originally wanted to MAKE UP A PRIVATE POLICE FORCE. http://www.precastconcrete.org/~messiah7/quz_ipolicar.htm "One Way activity which was very disturbing to Ohio residents was the creation of The Way International Police Department in 1978, partly intended to reduce vandalism of its property. Shelby County Prosecutor Scott Jarvis, who was at times under fire for conflict of interest since he was also general counsel for TWI, set up a police force under Ohio revised Code 3771.01. This 1874 law, called the Chautauga section, was originally authored to allow Chautauga gatherings to set up security for their events. Way Rev. Charlie Quillen became chief of police and Wierwille's son John Paul was one of the first officers. The Way purchased a pursuit car, uniforms and badges and designed an insignia. The Way police functioned much like any municipal police force, carrying weapons and stopping vehicles on the roads. "They had a squad car with flashing lights and everything," said Brent Henschen of the New Knoxville Police Department, "Heck, they even pulled me over once." Shelby County Sheriff John Lenhart showed his concern about the Way police by taking steps to control their powers. He pointed out specific ways the 1874 law could easily be abused and commented, "...I don't think that's healthy. There's no checks and balances. There's no mayor they answer to, no town council that they answer to." Lenhart refused to deputize Way police and to grant them access to nationwide police records. He asked the office of County Prosecutor Jarvis if Way police had power to block off roads and stop cars, and received the opinion that Way police had no such jurisdiction on roadways. Shelby County officials also prevented Way policemen from taking an Ohio Peace Officers training course. The Way International Police Department was terminated within 18 months of its inception as the Ohio government moved to intervene. When The Way tried to extend its police power into neighboring Auglaize County, Judge Jacob Boesel of the Auglaize county Municipal Court ruled the Chautauga law unconstitutional. State Rep. Dale Locker tried to resolve the matter entirely by introducing a bill, which was strengthened and passed by the Interstate Cooperation Committee. In April 1979 the Ohio House passed the amended bill to remove the entire Chautauga section from the Code. While this bill effectively terminated The Way International Police Department, Way security continues to pose as police. Although the sign on the highway says, "you are welcome at The Way," the behavior of Way security gives every visitor the clear impression that they are not welcome at The Way. Security has become increasingly aggressive, quickly and thoroughly investigating (even interrogating?) anyone who appears on campus without a name tag. They run off anyone who is not currently active in a Way-controlled fellowship (formerly "twig") and who doesn't have a Way escort. Way security personnel try to intimidate outsiders by dressing as police officers-- complete with utility belt, holster, CB-style microphone clipped to shoulder, metal badge with the word "patrolman" prominently stamped on it, and white vehicles with a seal painted on the door and emergency lights on top." http://www.pfo.org/closeway.htm http://www.eee.org/~messiah7/tdy_closing.htm http://www.equip.org/articles/sweeping-changes-in-the-way-international "The Way’s security force has become increasingly aggressive, quickly and thoroughly investigating anyone who appears at functions like the Rock of Ages conferences9 or is on their campus without a Way nametag. They run off anyone who is not currently active in a Way-controlled twig and who doesn’t have a Way escort. Way security personnel try to intimidate outsiders by dressing as police officers — complete with utility belt, holster, CB-style microphone clipped to a shoulder, metal badge with the word “patrolman” prominently stamped on it, and white vehicles with a seal painted on the door and emergency lights on top." If they could have a real police force, they would. So, they have a fake one, and do everything they can to deceive people into thinking it's a real police force. twi faking something and deceiving people- is this news to anyone any more?

Move over, Rover- and let JIMMY take over! This is "Fire", by Jimi Hendrix.

Old story, too- sinning and pretending things "just happened." ======================================= Exodus 32 1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. 3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD. 6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. 7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. 20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it. 21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them? 22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief. 23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf. ================================================== Aaron fashioned the golden calf himself. When caught, the calf "just happened"- he put gold in the fire, and presto! This calf just popped out! Aaron was minding his own business. And then it happened- the golden calf came out of the fire.

Therein lies the problem. See, you still don't see this, but history isn't something that happens to you. Each person is a active participant in their own life. How does sin happen? Not by surprise. George Carlin, of all people, explained this decades ago. "A mortal sin had to be -a grievous offense -sufficient reflection, and -FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL." "It was a sin for you to WANT to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to PLAN to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to FIGURE OUT A PLACE to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE to feel her up. It was a sin for you to TRY to feel her up, and it was a sin for you to FEEL her up. There were SIX SINS in ONE FEEL, man!" He had the main point- although all of that was ONE sin. There were SIX STEPS to REACH ONE SIN. Sin doesn't just HAPPEN to you-you happen to IT. You might see Ellen and desire her. Then what? A man who cares about what God says then CHANGES HIS FOCUS and puts it on something else. The end of the story about Ellen. A man who cares only about his own lusts, however, takes the DESIRE ("WANT to feel up Ellen") and then makes the deliberate decision to prepare the sin. (PLAN to feel up Ellen, FIGURE OUT A PLACE.") He then makes the decision to put his plan in action-although he could have turned aside instead ("TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE". "TRY".) You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office trying to feel HIM up. The truth of the matter was that he made deliberate decisions to sin- and picked specific women as the most opportune targets. He had placeS prepared, to make sin easier. He then used his network of co-conspirators (certain lewd fellows and women of the baser sort) to arrange to have the women meet him in places he planned to rape or molest them. To them, it was a surprise- to him, it was another step in a detailed plan. Once there, he gave them lots of situational ethics sayings and rationalizations, and usually tried to "seal the deal" with alcohol and drugs. What should he have done? That's easy. Billy Graham, I have no doubt, has seen many, many attractive women. What has he done about it, and what has he NOT done about it? What he has NOT done: He has not had places arranged to sin with them, he has not arranged for cheap motel rooms nor offices nor vehicles set up for cheating on his wife. What he HAS done: He has made a policy of never being alone with a woman, not even in an elevator, and keeps his office door open, making it difficult for lustful sins to pursue him into the office. (Hard to sneak around and sin if you always have witnesses around. King Saul was required to have witnesses with him to prevent that, and to ensure he could not be accused of that because he always had men with him.) You posted Ham being in a marriage that has failed for years, and then meeting some woman he's attracted to, who's attracted to him, is not his wife, and she's eager to perform lustful activities with him. "And then it happens." No, see, you can't just dump Ham into this situation. If Ham's in a marriage, he has an idea if it's working or not. Ham has the option of trying to fix it, leave it alone, or dissolve the marriage. Many Christians who are not sex maniacs have no problem trying to fix a marriage, and trying harder to fix it if they didn't succeed initially. Finally, if it's unfixable, they'd be honest and end the marriage. A bad relationship that CAN'T be fixed is NOT a marriage, anyway, no matter what you call it. So, Ham would not find himself several years into a bad marriage, then wondering what to do if a hot babe wanted to do the horizontal hucklebuck with him. He's be in a repaired marriage, or be divorced. If he was divorced, he couldn't be unfaithful to a wife if he decides to dance the horizontal with some theoretical nymphomaniacal contortionist. (He'd still be sinning, but not with a wife.) See, lots of Christian men each day decide not to sin against God, so they don't run around having sex and satisfying their lusts. That includes the young and impulsive. When one is over 30, over 40, it becomes a lot easier, since the lusts become more subordinate to the will as one ages. Men don't just get up, generally, and have someone just orchestrate a situation and dump THEM in the middle of it. If some woman tries to make THEM a sex object, the man can see the plan forming- a private place for him to be taken, etc, and makes sure he's never in a fully private place with the woman. I'm not going to go into the detail of theoretically blaming Mrs W because vpw himself kept going out and trying to drug women and perform the horizontal mambo with them.] I would not trust a mechanic whose car always broke down to fix mine. If a computer tech's PC was always getting viruses, I'm keeping his hands off my machine. I don't trust a 300-pound diet doctor. I don't trust a Psychologist who gets into shouting matches with his receptionist. If a man wants to tell me what God wants, and keeps making plans to sin whenever he's not trying to tell me what God wants, I do NOT trust him to understand God nor to serve Him. Why would you have a LOWER standard for a minister of God than for a mechanic, a diet doctor, a computer tech? Anything to excuse vpw.... VPW covered for vpw. vpw set up a NETWORK of sinners to facilitate and assist in his sins. He was VERY thorough in making sure he didn't get caught when he sinned, and that his victims would not be BELIEVED if they TOLD THE TRUTH to anyone. God disapproves of sin and does NOT FACILITATE SIN- which means God WOULD NOT "cover for vpw's sins." The part that is NOT a gray area is that God tells us what sin is, tells us to avoid it, and tells us it's wrong. Anyone saying otherwise-or trying to excuse sin or justify sin- should NOT be trusted as authorities concerning God.

It changed a lot of people. The Jesus People movement, from what I've seen, was a legitimate movement of God that paid no attention to denominations, organizations, and so on. It was DIVERTED into a few groups in some places, and the fire and life of the Jesus People was tapped and used to power some hidebound doctrines and organizations, primarily twi. The movement was doing fine until it was adulterated with twi leaven. Sadly, a lot of young, idealistic Christians were tricked into conflating Jesus with twi, and missed the real movement. vpw did his best to get the young, impressionable youths to think that genuine Christianity was synonymous with twi. He succeeded beyond his wildest expectations. There's still people who do that decades after he died. In fact, even with a wealth of evidence showing how vpw was a liar, a cheat, a conman, a plagiarist, and an evil man, they STILL think that. If only they would drop the religion of twi and looked ONLY to Christ, they'd go much farther than they are now! It changed many people. In fact, some of them it killed- which is about as radical a change as you can get. Change the WORLD? Depends how small your world is. Many local churches have a larger footprint than twi had at its peak. {Read through the testimonials of Scientologists sometime. They may sound familiar.] [This comes as a surprise to you? That's a trend for several MILLENIA.]

Next movie. "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto."

It's of a piece of what we know. vpw told lcm that he had to "loosen up sexually" if he was going to minister to God's people, and also went out of his way to try to get lcm to make himself into a vpw clone.

We can all find at least ONE PERSON who espouses the most ridiculous bs. Finding ONE PERSON who will bad-mouth Jim and actually met him is not a great accomplishment. Trick question. IN HINDSIGHT, vpw obviously was self-serving. AT THE TIME, vpw was a successful conman. See, there's 2 types of conmen- the successful and the UNsuccessful. The UNsuccessful are more "obviously self-serving." They offer a product that does not convince people is legitimate. Those conmen, in true Darwinian fashion, are caught, exposed, arrested, imprisoned, and then things really go downhill for them. SUCCESSFUL conmen like vpw are not "OBVIOUSLY self-serving." They cover their greed with a disguise of altruism and good-will. They offer a product that convinces people it's legitimate. That's how they're able to con people in the first place. vpw was this type of conman-otherwise, he would just have vanished into history like dozens of "snake-oil salesmen" throughout history. As a good-hearted man, Jim actually TRUSTED that people told him the truth, especially when they claimed to care about God. That's not what vpw said. "The Way:Living in Love, pg-174. "I always knew I wanted to help people. First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer; but by my junior year in college, I had my heart set on the ministry." Even vpw didn't say that about himself. Mind you, even there, his story isn't consistent. He had "Uncle Harry" claiming when vpw ditched doing his farm-chores that, just like Billy Graham, he was practicing preaching by "preaching to the trees" despite admitting he never actually SAW him do that. When he was growing up, vpw had built a reputation locally as a bully and a show-off. The Way:Living in Love, pg-177. "After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God. She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible. She was the one who had me make out lists of the good things I'd done, that was about half a page, and all the bad things, that amounted to 10 or 12 pages. She was off on that part, but the Bible as the Word of God, she really pushed that one. And I'd never heard that in all my years of school-not believing it anyway." vpw went to seminary school, and spent over a year as a minister, doing weekly sermons, and THEN believed the Bible was the Word of God. He didn't just act as an honest minister, then get up one morning and find a hot secretary in his living room, buck nekkid, with a rose in her teeth. He planned things, arranged things, and eventually succeeded in his plans to molest and rape young women. He worked it out pretty early. He went to San Francisco to meet the hippies and recruit them. While there, he bought pornographic materials- you saw those in CFS. While there, he tried to convince Jim D that ORGIES WERE FINE WITH GOD and tried to use the Bible to say that. The bigger the public audience, the more moral he talked, but the more private the conditions, the more he said his REAL thoughts- that God was ok with casual sex. He told all the wows it wasn't fine. He told the more exclusive corps, sometimes, that it WAS. And to a few people one-on-one, he actually said things like God was ok with ORGIES. Jim, on the other hand, was clear God disapproved, and was glad to be delivered from things like that, before vpw ever HEARD of him. Explanations follow the most direct explanation. Jim D saw the materials from Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger that vpw plagiarized (Kenyon as well), and that all looked legitimate- because THEIR WORK was legitimate. Truth at the pen of a plagiarist is still truth. In the case of vpw, vpw used THEIR TRUTH to hide HIS sex obsessions. No. Their one talk on the subject, vpw was pushing for Jim to tell him what ORGIES were like. vpw said that God was cool with it and it was "AVAILABLE." Jim DISAGREED, thanked God he was free of such things, and ended the conversation. (vpw had made him uncomfortable by even ASKING about orgies.)] "That's why moral superiority is a myth. We're all human. We all get tempted. We all screw things up. Moral superiority is merely a spiritual football." You're able to imagine that a man vpw failed to corrupt might have been corrupted by vpw, so you get to skip over all of morality? Sad, sad, sad. Shameless how much of the Bible gets discarded, all to excuse an evil hypocrite's evil deeds and moral deficiencies. "So you say it's just not possible that a Christian ministry can have skeletons in its closet like that?" NO. We say it is a mockery of God for a supposed minister to do so evilly, and that such a man or woman should be removed from office, exposed to his congregation, and subjected to the fullest prosecution of criminal law. People sin, but for someone claiming to represent God to orchestrate things to perform evil acts upon God's people is a whole different thing, and the Bible condemns such people roundly. Some of them LOST THEIR LIVES for such. "Look at all the denominations. They are part of the body of Christ, yet they believe Jesus is God, which is idolatry, and which is REQUIRED for membership in the National Council of Churches! This is not good, yet they are part of the body of Christ. People go to those churches and get saved, delivered from bondage, feel like they belong in the body of Christ, all that good stuff. It happens there, too." [so, according to you, it's excusable for a minister to set up a love shack, arrange for young parishioners to be sent there, drug them, then rape or molest them, but teaching the Trinity is to be thoroughly condemned. Fascinating.] "None of us is qualified to be a moral policeman or judge. We can say this is wrong, that is wrong, and slice it up as finely as we can, but to build this gigantic, bigger than life, superstructure, where VP is the epitome of evil? That's God's job. I'm not building a statue to VP. YOU'RE building a statue to moral superiority." [if I ever see someone "build this gigantic, bigger than life superstructure where vpw is the epitome of evil", I'll probably warn them it's disproportionate to the degree of his evil deeds, and wrong. The idea that anyone's doing this now is a convenient FICTION for you, but, hey, it's not like your posts here have been concerned with things like "truth" and "reality" so far, so this hardly comes as a surprise. And one need not "build a statue" to someone to idolize them- one only need move them from their proper place and make them a higher authority than Scripture. Not like you're going to see the difference.]

I disagree that setting up structures still classifies one as a nihilist. It's like when comedian Bob Nelson explained he was going to perform a "pantomine". "Except it will have sound effects, and I will talk during it." The joke was, of course, now it's no longer a "pantomime". I think setting up structures disqualifies someone from being a true nihilist. Then again, you and I approach things from opposite ends of the ideological spectrum (you emphasize personal freedom while I think it's possible to work fairly within the system, and that a system is better overall than NO system), so it's no surprise you and I would disagree on how nihilism works and is defined. I think we probably reached our limit on where we agree on it. Personally, I'd rather get back to the thread and let it go back to just one derailer. ;)

This is getting off-topic a bit (not that we weren't already), but... Let's get a quick, working definition of "nihilism." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nihilism "...is the philosophical belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy." To go from that, I'd say nihilism, as I've understood it, wants a removal of all social constructs and social organization. vpw most certainly did not believe in that- he wanted social constructs and organizations- he just wanted them organized to HIS convenience and to HIS rules. That's why he set up so much structure in twi- classes at precise levels, numbers of prerequisites, different colored armbands, different nametags, multiple programs (fellow-labourers, corps, spouse corps, recognized corps, university of life, wow, etc etc). No nihilist would BUILD programs. They'd argue to remove all programs. vpw advocated FOR loyalties- loyalties to HIM and to his organization. (In the cases of a few people, he's exceeded his wildest expectations, IMHO.) As for nothing being known nor comunicated, vpw organized twi as a modern take on some sort of "mystery religion" and "gnosic" cult, where value is placed on KNOWLEDGE, especially esoteric, HIDDEN ("occulted") knowledge. No man could push for so many different classes and claim at the same time that knowledge doesn't really exist. He claimed he was either the fountain of all REAL knowledge or that he was the only man who could tap into the Fountain of All REAL Knowledge, depending on who he was speaking to. (Usually he IMPLIED it and let others SAY it outright, which provided him with "plausible deniability"- he MEANT it but since he didn't SAY it, some people could claim he never MEANT it.) As defined by those with more precise definitions, among "conformist" "innovator", "ritualist", "retreatist" and "rebel" (like Merton), vpw would have been a "rebel." He rejected both the establishment's goals (spend your life serving the flock, the leader washes the feet of the disciples) and the means of accomplishing goals (the denominations in effect when he joined them), and substituted his own goals (I want the money, the recognition, and to satisfy all my impulses like sex, alcohol, tobacco whenever I want to) and his own means (parcel out the organization in pieces that people can be charged money for. Tell them their goal is always in the next level- then repeat the process as they pay for another level.) L Ron Hubbard pulled much the same thing in regards to means. Herbert W Armstrong seems to have done both with means and goals when he was alive. vpw was neither the first nor the last to do things like that, and isn't even well-known among such. However, this is small comfort for those hurt by his immoral, evil means (him personally or the organization he set up for them which hurt people).

[No, John. let's compare them with what they were actually discussing. I noticed you left off the links to the original posts, which might suggest to people that YOU DELIBERATELY WANTED TO ROB THEM OF THEIR CONTEXTS TO CHANGE THEIR MEANING. Hey, robbed of its context, someone can claim the Bible says "There is no God". When you made a claim of "an infinity of things" vpw was accused of, I responded to your SPECIFIC CLAIM: The post you quoted out of context was in response to your own claim here: So she QUOTED YOU and replied to that very claim, showing how it's obvious there's no moral equivalency between those who do horribly and those who do good. In other words, your unsupported claim was REFUTED. There is acting accorting to good morals, and that's better than acting according to poor morals. Here's her response. [As anyone can see, when not robbed of its context, this had nothing to do with what you claimed it meant. This is easy to see for even the lightly-educated, so all I can conclude is that you saw what she said, and DELIBERATELY CHOSE to distort the meaning and LIE in order to accomplish some goal. That's immral.] It is neither slander nor liabel. Nobody connected such claims to twi, vpw or anyone else until YOU judt changed the clearly posted meaning to do so. Why are you shamelessly lying about the posts others post here? Are you willing to do ANY AND EVERY immoral thing, just to derail threads, thus concealing the evil deeds we discussed of vpw before your diversion into "moral superiority is a myth", as you falsely asserted? Are you willing to do evil to keep people from discussing vpw's evil and immoral deeds? Is that what this is all about?] Nobody made such a ridiculous claim. All of this is a smokescreen. We didn't say that morals affected anything but conduct. You're the only one who seems unclear about what morals should affect.] You said "moral superiority is a myth." That's it. No qualifiers as to "by this I mean..." Just that superiority of morals- AND THUS, GOOD AND EVIL DEEDS- are a "MYTH." Ridiculous claim, but it was yours and people responded accordingly. I noticed you seem to claim you SAID this, yet provide neither a LINK to where you supposedly said this, nor a QUOTE where you supposedly said this. Is that because you never said anything along those lines? Is it because you're posting one thing, and yet these threads proceed differently in your mind, and mentally you're rewriting these threads so you're making sense and we aren't? I think the continuing absence of anything to support your assertions says something about that, even when you are silent. Silence can indeed tell us some things.]

For the benefit of the few people who (like Johniam) may have difficulty following what people mean in a discussion when he brings something up and people discuss it, I've grouped part of the discussion here for easy reference. Most people had no trouble without it, but I am able to help along those unable or unwilling to proceed logically when I wish. So, a few posts, with "help files enabled". {Here's where we pick up this part of the discussion. In order to try to excuse an evil man (as SCRIPTURE puts it) and an IMmoral man from the IMmorality he performed, John attempted to dismiss the entire subject of MORALITY and IMMORALITY. This is bizarre for a Christian who claims to believe the Bible, but people trying to excuse vpw for his evil actions have eagerly contradicted the Bible at will for decades, so this is hardly a new conversational gambit. So, after such a claim was made (to the Christian, a RIDICULOUS claim), responses to that claim- that morality is a "MYTH", that morals between all people REGARDLESS OF THEIR DEEDS NO MATTER HOW GOOD OR HOW EVIL- were posted. Few people would NEED the responses- children have little difficulty learning some things are right to do and wrong to do- but discussion fora tend to have responses to such claims because that's what happens when someone makes an outlandish claim in a discussion forum.] [What was the previous poster saying, and what was she not saying? Was she saying "Oh, there was a man in twi who kidnapped children, molested them and murdered them?" No. Was she saying "Oh, there was a man in twi who dedicated his life to feeding hungry children?" No. She was responding to the rather SPECIFIC claim- and quoted it to make it obvious "this is what I'm responding to"- that "moral superiority is a myth", which is the ridiculous claim Johniam made. She gave obvious examples of a very IMMORAL man and a very MORAL man. Can we all see the difference between the two men? Apparently, nearly everyone CAN see the difference. Sadly, John didn't. It's like he either didn't read the post at all, or there's something lacking in his understanding, where the entire subject of morals has been crippled, possibly due to exposure to horribly twisted morals. Or, he chose to ignore the obvious meaning in order to attempt to twist the reply into addressing something it didn't approach, and ignored that it said something specific in the first place. No matter which possibility it is, that's certainly SAD. Adults are normally capable of much better, and even posters with mental disabilities all over cyberspace can tell the difference. (I've communicated with a number, they've never made such monumentous mistakes in fora.) So, she refuted John's claim that "moral superiority is a myth" by giving examples anyone SHOULD find easy to understand.] [This poster (me) even attempted to show John from Scripture how completely wrong Johniam's idea that "moral superiority is a myth" is. Despite us seeing about a week ago that the Bible explains how to tell "good men" and "evil men" apart, John's missed it again and is still saying there's no "moral superiority", thus, no "good", no "evil" among humans. So, from Scripture again to show him how obviously false this is. If John really cared about the Bible, you'd think he'd have learned such basics in the past decades, or at least be thankful to be shown a few of the verses he seems to have missed. So, the Bible says there are morals, good and evil, and that calling morals a "myth" is the activity of those who are immoral and evil. Again, should be "Foundational" level- and for almost all Christians, indeed it IS. There's only a minority, generally clustered among people who learned from vpw and twi, who seem to be unable or unwilling to understand the concept- or eager to dismiss part of the Bible.] [Was the entire claim that morals don't really exist sincere? It seems made to excuse one from even BOTHERING to try to live as God said to live, in order that one may "do as you fool well please", as vpw said you could do in the pfal Foundational class. Is it offensive to have those attempting to perform right actions lumped together with those who made doctrines out of sinful practices? Most people, Christians and non-Christians, would probably find it so. Is this hard to understand? Not for nearly every teenager and adult who hears or reads such a thing...]

vpw claimed he took "EVERY" course Moody offered, in their correspondence classes. He probably added the 2nd part to cover that he wasn't on their campus for months and years it would take to actually TAKE their classes. As it turns out, Moody has never HEARD of him. He claimed he took "EVERY" course they offered. They don't have a record of him taking ANY course they've offered. So, it was a lie, and one that shows his laziness again- he wanted the credentials but he didn't want to put in the work FOR the credentials.

Actually, that was Rita Mae Brown. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiquote/en/wiki/Rita_Mae_Brown Einstein is said to have said it, but that's misattributed. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiquote/en/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Misattributed

I never met the man, but lots of people did, some of whom posted here. I would call him a solid, genuine Christian. I'm slow to add labels, especially when I lack first-hand contact with the material. I don't think I'd call him a teacher, prophet or pastor, but I could be wrong.

[i think I'm morally superior to any man (or woman) who would claim to represent God Almighty in any way, and then seeks to molest men, women or minors, whether or not he uses his "godly" credentials to facilitate that. I think I'm morally superior to any man (or woman) who would claim it is all right to claim to represent God Almighty in any way, and then seek to molest men, women or minors. I don't go around talking about that, and in fact, I didn't think of it this way until you brought up the subject of "moral superiority." When it comes to standing for God's judgement, I'll be a lot more secure of my standing than that of evil men who did such. As for the idea that "moral superiority is a myth", I'll accept that a Bible-REJECTER could claim such a thing, saying there is NO God, there is NO divine authority to the Bible, that the Bible's testimony is not God's Word, that there is NO good and evil. I'll also note that some people who say that have no problem with thinking there's something wrong about trying to molest men, women or minors, whether or not they can explain WHY it's wrong. Romans 2:14-15 (NASB) 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, ================= As for the Bible and the subject of there being NO "moral superiority", it DOES address the subject. The Greek word in question is "anomias" or "anomos". It's a state when one says there is no moral superiority, no good, no evil, thus no morals. It's translated things like "wicked" in the KJV, and it's a word associated with the Man of Sins to come in the end-times. That man is often referred to as "the anti-Christ." So, whose gospel do you follow? Jesus told people things like "GO AND SIN NO MORE" and obeying God. The Epistles often give directions to right action, saying what should be done, what shouldn't be done, and what should be avoided for the sake of others in order to avoid being a stumblingblock to them. On the other hand, vpw made up doctrines to excuse himself from the sinfulness of his sinful thoughts, his sinful plans, and sinful actions. Everyone has sinful thoughts now and again- but the rest of us elect not to act on them, and are honest about when we DO act on them that we sin and displease God. Of course, the greatest moral relativists in all of history and time make vpw look like an amateur- that old serpent decided that it was acceptable to oppose God, to attempt to overthrow Him and attempt to be like The Most High. When "anti-Christ" comes, he will be a FAR bigger sinner and religious hypocrite than vpw on his worst days. When speaking on morals, whose company do you WANT to keep? Jesus Christ, God Almighty, Paul vpw, satan, anti-Christ. Can you even SEE what makes the difference between the two?]

WordWolf often uses alternate spellings, like the British "colour" and "flavour". :) [What he's saying is that, for the most part, we SUPPORT our statements with something- generally documentation, evidence, even logic where appropriate. Variations of "it's related because I say it's related" or insulting someone rather than REFUTING them are inferior in intelligent discussion- which means that they're ALLOWED on a DISCUSSION board, but it's plainly obvious the the average reader and the average poster that the one attempting to use STYLE INSTEAD of SUBSTANCE really brings little to the table. If you HAVE something to bring to the discussion, either bring it or be resigned to bringing placeholders and having everybody else know it. Mind you, some people know others know they're full of hot air, and they're fine with it, so it's up to you if that's what you're happy with.]

I was actually thinking "the only other movie I remember a Butch would have been Pulp Fiction or possibly the Little Rascals, but I don't remember that line from Pulp Fiction." Was that really a line that people hear and immediately say "that's Pulp Fiction"? I posted a quote in "Name that Flick" once and someone immediately identified "Duck Soup" because they had the movie all but memorized. I like Duck Soup, and even I would probably have missed it with only that quote. I would never try that line here because it doesn't leap out and say "Duck Soup" to anyone except hardcore Marx Brothers fans- and even many of them would have missed it.

Heh. I noticed that long before Quaid did. As soon as the guy started visibly sweating, I tapped a friend sitting next to me-in the pattern of the sweat. By the time I was finished explaining, Quaid was just noticing it and the camera was focusing on it.

There's a certain irony in twi telling people to ONLY go to them and to RUN from anything else on the internet- then having twi admit that the credible way to publish their response to something was to use an external site, especially one that was most famous for being their loudest critic. On the other hand, the GSC BUILT its own credibility over time (a minority disagree, but a minority disagrees the space program is real and a minority also things Obama is a Muslim), and twi has LOST its own credibility over time. Having the LOW credibility place give what little credibility they have to the HIGH credibility place is amusing, but in all honesty, the GSC never needed twi to give it credibility.

I think the evidence trail is pretty clear. He wanted an easier job than working on a farm. He considered business, music,and preaching. Business was unreliable and is a lot of work. Music would allow him to pursue lots of vices- musicians do that all the time- but it also is unreliable- and is more work than it appears, with no guarantee of success. It's said it takes 7 years of preparation to become an "overnight success". So, neither was a guaranteed living. So, preaching. This allowed him to remain the center of attention and get people to listen to him (by his own words, that was critically important), guaranteed a comfortable living, and LOOKED LIKE he worked 1 day a week. Naturally, he discovered later it's more work than that, and people hold you accountable for good conduct if you're a preacher. So, he began setting up his little side-ventures-- Christian radio & music with Vesper Chimes and so on, all looking for an outside independent deal while on his denomination's paycheck. By his own words, he neither went into preaching, nor seminary school, nor actual preaching BELIEVING THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. So, it's pretty clear he had another motive- which is obvious when you follow his history. He was a show-off as a teenager and followed a career which allowed him to continue to be a showoff. He succeeded in finding an independent deal when he found Leonard's class and plagiarized it. This gave him a product. When the family farm became the property of the brothers, he bought out the brothers and had it signed over to a religious organization he incorporated on the spot- which allowed him to skip taxes on the land, and gave him a staging area for his product. He got the final piece- the audience/customers- when he hijacked the hippies and sent them to sell his product/promote pfal. (Although it wasn't really "his" product- it was a melange plagiarized from different sources.) It wasn't until he got to the customers/audience/suckers that he began telling his "God spoke to me and made it snow" story. Supposedly, it happened in 1942, and it was 20 years later before he even mentioned it. Was it all deliberate? Yes, each step, each unprincipled act, each crime, all were planned and executed. However, I think he was such a thorough con man that he conned HIMSELF part of the time. I honestly think that when vpw told D00p that God permitted ORGIES, that vpw had convinced himself it was so. Someone noted that his final hours included him trying to figure out where he'd messed up-since he wasn't getting deliverance. Either he was STILL acting full-speed at the very end, or (which I think) he succeeded in conning HIMSELF part of the time. Yes, he knew it was all a fraud, but he put on the role so completely that the role became the actor. When it happens with a stage-actor, it's tragic. Evidence supports the idea that James Dean became obsessed with Brando's "Wild One", and became "Rebel Without a Cause" for the rest of his life. Not "typecast"- except by his own mind. When it happens outside the stage, it's a crying shame.