WordWolf

I'm not on the clock or something. I'm asking if someone could post quotes in their spare time like in the other ("wonderland") threads. The "the way:living in wonderland" thread has quotes almost entirely from "the way:living in love." "vp and me in wonderland" discusses "vp and me". "Outreach Outside twi's congregation" (I think that's the name) quotes a bit from "Born Again to Serve." The first 2 are threads I worked on, and covered excerpts from all over the book. A week or so, or anytime in August, really, would be appreciated. It's not like you get a salary for posting here, and you're too savvy for a "loyalty to the website that taught you t3h tr00th" speech. (At this point in life, certainly...) Frankly, if Tom LB and the Sudos split up all the quotes, it would be more of a side-thing and feel less like a job for any of them....

By 1988, the Teen Stage had been renamed the Afternoon Stage, since it had proven to be so successful that believers in their 20s (and older) would also hang out there, aka "Teen Vets." The same stage was also used for a "Coffee House" (a talent show, really) one night each ROA. Both the afternoon activities and the talent show were Bible/twi-based. In other words, it was a rousing success. As with all rousing successes, lcm would either slap his name on it, or destroy it. He chose to destroy it. And as a younger person, I never got the memo that we were supposed to be attempting the horizontal mambo during the ROA. Looking back, I'm glad I didn't.

Anyone got a copy of "Uncle Harry:a Biography", and willing to share some of the best quotes with us?

Those of you who have something to share, (relevant to the time-frame), PLEASE add it here...

Has anyone who was around in the old, old days checked in? ANY account, no matter how fragmented, would be very appreciated.....

Most of you are aware that there were 2 types of book that say "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. The SECOND type-which came later-were written by committee, and the research staff wrote 100% of the contents except the introduction/preface. That's books like "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" and "Jesus Christ Our Passover." vpw himself otherwise provided zero percent of the contents. The FIRST type-which describes most of "vpw's" books- were the result of taking one book of one author and retyping its contents, or taking more than one book and inserting chapters and retyping their aggregate contents. Almost all of vpw's "signature books" fall in this category. =========== Ok, then, starting off.... The White Book, "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today"... RTHST's 1st edition was Jack E. Stiles' "the Gift of the Holy Spirit", with a few words moved around. Its introduction included an anonymous reference to a man of God who taught him on this subject. That's the Stiles whose book this was a complete photocopy of. Later editions deleted all mention of ANY man teaching him on the subject (3rd edition and later). Later editions also featured EW Bullinger's "the Giver and His Gifts". (This book is currently available under the name "Word Studies on the Holy Spirit.") The Bullinger book is the source of the 385 occurrences of "pneuma" in the New Testament. (Which vpw was unable to even pronounce correctly.) ========= Juedes documented some of this very well, years ago... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_sources.htm ================= The "Power For Abundant Living" book was, of course, a transcription from the class of the same name. The Orange Book's origins therefore are the same as the origins of the class. In its first iteration, that meant it was the exact same thing as Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit course. Later iterations pruned out the Advanced class from the "PFAL Foundation" class, and filled in the remaining space with Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible", and culminating the class with Sessions 9-12, which were Stiles and Bullinger's works on Holy Spirit. dmiller: "I have a few books by Bullinger, including Word Studies on the Holy Spirit and How To Enjoy the Bible. Word Studies is the list of the 385 usages of pneuma hagion, with a short commentary on each verse. Imo -- everything you have ever heard docvic say about the various usages of PH, seem to have come directly from this book by Bullinger. How To Enjoy The Bible has many sections with familiar headings: *No Private Interpretation*; *define words by their biblical uage*; *All scripture .....*; *context of where it is written*; *absent from the body, present with the Lord*; and more." ============= The "original" PFAL (what I call its first iteration) was a clone of Leonard's class in EVERY detail. Leonard's class had imaginary characters called Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup and Henry Belocco. (I'm not sure about Snowball Pete or Herman B.) Leonard was Canadian. Maggie Muggins was a children's television character easily recognizable by his audience by name. (As if you said "Captain Kangaroo then said..." or "then Big Bird said...) Johnny Jumpup is the name of a plant. Using those 2 names as characters in a class, however, that was straight out of Leonard. Herman Belocco probably started due to an inability of vpw to precisely recall EXACTLY what was in Leonard's class-so sometimes it was Henry, sometimes it was Herman. Snowball Pete was mentioned ONCE in pfal, and doesn't match the pattern Leonard normally used-normal first name, possible normal last name. This suggests-if I may engage in wild speculation-that this was made up by vpw in a pitiful attempt at originality. One of our posters-who took Leonard's class-said that vpw even ripped off Leonard's speech patterns and style, which made it eerie to hear Leonard teach after hearing vpw imitate him. Leonard handled publishing under Canadian Christian Press. vpw handled publishing under American Christian Press. Someone also pointed out that one of Leonard's books contains an introduction that slightly resembles one of vpw's claims. Expand it, add grandiose claims, and an imaginary snowstorm, and you have the 1943 promise. (Leonard never claimed God told him he was unique nor mentioned the 1st century church to him.) Leonard never made a claim of a "miraculous" event. This, however, is from Leonard's foreword to his book "Gifts of the Spirit"... "One day God spoke to me. 'If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in My Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion.' I believed God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude. During those wonderful days, He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit. As He did, these things were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received, and by examining the results in light of His Word." ================= In other news.... "Are the Dead Alive Now?" is a compilation of some of Bullinger's works, most notably "the Rich Man and Lazarus: an Intermediate State?" and "King Saul and the Witch of Endor: Did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?" Most readers will note that vpw also ripped off the "title with question mark" in addition to the content of the books. "Studies in Human Suffering", later called "Job: Victim to Victor", was taken from Bullinger's book "the Book of Job". That became a large chapter in one of the "Studies in Abundant Living". ====================

Please refresh my memory, and adjust it where I'm remembering incorrectly. After the first few years, ROA was held on-grounds. (Rental fees for site: $0.) 90% or more of the total setup was performed by way corps and staff who were already there, staff receiving regular pay, corps working for free. (Setup cost: $0.) That includes pipes for showers, rows for Tent City, stages, etc. I'm not sure if the big tents were set up by twi'ers or by contractors, and what the cost for the tent rentals were. (I know the Big Top was not owned by twi-no idea about the other stuff.) There was an admission for the week for the event. There was a (small) fee to take a shower on-site. Housing was either a tent onsite in Tent City, provided by you (cost to twi: $0) a large tent for corps or intl outreach or whoever, provided by them (cost to twi: tent rental) RV on site (which was charged a fee to the user for all services) or staying in a hotel offsite (cost to twi: $0.) Camping supplies were staffed by twi'ers and sold at retail. (Earning a profit.) Food services were staffed by twi'ers and sold at retail. (Earning a profit.) The bookstore was staffed by twi'ers and (always) sold at retail. (Earning a profit.) Events were either the keynote teachings or performed by volunteers (musical groups, etc.) (cost to twi: $0.) =========== So, except for the tent rentals, twi incurred NO expenses, and provided no free services except a few of the group tents, and a place to pitch your OWN tent. Since those staying in the tents paid for showers and bought all food (retail) from twi, even that turned a profit-and people DID pay for the entire event. Seems to me that for a "non-profit" organization, twi-as always- turned a tidy profit on the event. Rental of the tents could not POSSIBLY match the admission fees alone, plus the bookstore sales-retail and food sales-retail turned a tidy profit on their own. (Anyone who thinks they didn't after giving it thought, well....) Does anyone remember differently? Am I overlooking some great expense incurred by twi? Ok, electricity, I expect, cost something, since the main tents and stuff had full power.

No need. They advocated kicking out any child with 'inconvenient' needs. One recommended using a stick and giving the beating of the child's life at the FIRST infraction, then telling him the second time will be worse than this. Another recommended fostercare or putting them up for adoption (I forget which). A third recommended abandoning the child in the woods or by the roadside (I forget which.) Someone curious can look them up- I read all 3 of those here.

http://www.oneishy.com/personality/personality_test.php :)

We talked about this on the "vp and me in wonderland" thread. Here's what lcm said-in italics and my commentary-in boldface "Incident of Way Corps going home after Corps Week but prior to the ROA." "Corps Week was when the Corps got together, and was when the Corps did the set-up and assembly of all the physical details needed for the ROA. (Setting up Registration, the tents, Family Tables, food stands...) So, these Corps did setup and met together, then went home. They worked for free for the week preceding ROA." "Dr heard about it and reproved everyone in the corps household for the problem, for not helping to put it on." "Setting up all that stuff doesn't count as "helping to put it on"? That was a week's free labour! "Reproved" them? He should have THANKED them for the free labour! After all, there WAS an admission, we DID PAY for setup, so things COULD have been done with local workers, providing work for labourers locally. Of course, that would mean vpw would have to accept seeing money exit. " "He reminded everyone of the commitments that they had made regarding a lifetime of Christian service." "They served a week of hard labour. What about that? Further, when did 'a lifetime of Christian service' become synonymous with 'involuntary servitude for life at the whims of twi'? I don't remember MANDATORY ROA attendance being required in the corps signups-did anyone sign such a document?" "Every corps person needs to plan ahead one year or more so that they can be a part of these events. They need to be able to be a part of ROA and corps fellowship." "It occasionally came as a surprise to those people who never actually WORKED for a living (vpw went straight from school into pastoring, lcm went straight from school into the way corps), but REAL jobs have REQUIREMENTS and RESPONSIBILITIES. All these people made arrangements for a VACATION WEEK from work (for some of them, this was their ONLY vacation, or was unpaid leave), paid to travel to hq on their own from all over the country, and WORKED for a week, unpaid. Now you have the nerve to say 'Not good enough-work MORE for free!' NO! These people have families to support, jobs to perform, and lives to maintain. If they leave, it's because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to, simp! At the very least, you owed them profound thanks. To insult them after they worked for free is lacking in character, lacking in integrity, and lacking in Christian values. So, to you who said this, I say 'F* you, AND the motorcycle you rode in on!!!!' Or, as Andy Kaufman once said, ''You, sir, are a f*ing @$$h*, a F*ing @$$h*, a F*ING @$$H*!!!! '" ========= I would expand on it now, but really, I think that once you've said that, you've said it all.

I find I prefer the get-togethers that happen in a hotel with air-conditioning, but I like one or two a year also.

"So, something I've never understood...... What made the WOW burgers that darn good?" "Two things........1) Being really hungry and 2) Wierwille said they were (good). Just another "buy in" to wierwille's charisma." I'll add a few more reasons. 3) Decent sized-slab of meat (a Wendy's Double), broiled. 4) Someone mentioned how the get-together made stuff nicer. That's true here, too. I had a virtual twin of a WOWburger at a get-together last month. Tasted great. And until tonight, I hadn't figured out what it reminded me of. 5) They were the OFFICIAL Burger of the Word Over the World Ambassadors. They were a BRANDED product. 6) Add the 5 reasons together, and toss them into the stories of people who attended & had a good time. Then it is raised to iconographic status, like a beefy version of the Holy Grail, or a Krabby Patty or something. So now you almost HAVE to try one just to see what all the commotion was about. I related a similar experience about buying a designer latte when visiting an internet cafe some time ago. "I felt it enhanced the experience," I said when asked. There were similar attempts to lionize the chicken. Don't believe me? I think I still have a copy of the Way Productions tape with THE SONG ABOUT THE CHICKEN somewhere.

Never suggest that anyone or anything in twi was/is not superior to anything NOT in twi. That one was certainly active as of the 80s. I ran into that little brick wall myself.

Jung-Myers-Briggs test. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

From what I've seen, "the best of times" was either (or both): A) when I was new, didn't know the "behind the curtain" details, and before it got a lot more legalistic or B) when a bunch of us just went off and did stuff because we enjoyed each other's company, before that became mandatory Seems everybody has the same answers on that. (Except for a few who say it was always the best of times.)

THE BRIDGE BUILDER by Will Allen Dromgode, 1934 An old man, going a lone highway, Came at the evening, cold and gray, To a chasm, vast and deep and wide, Through which was a flowing sullen tide. The old man crossed in the twilight dim; But he turned when safe on the other side And built a bridge to span the tide. "Old man," said a fellow pilgrim near, "You are wasting strength with building here. Your journey will end with the ending day: You never again must pass this way: You have crossed the chasm, deep and wide -- Why build you a bridge at eventide?" The builder lifted his old grey head: "Good friend, in the path I have come," he said, "There followeth after me today A youth whose feet must pass this way. This chasm that has been naught to me To that fair-haired youth may a pitfall be. He, too, must cross in the twilight dim; Good friend, I am building a bridge for him."

Formal programs, that's something else entirely. Supposedly, everything not a class or program was entirely voluntary, but during the 90s, that became a fiction everywhere. (Before that, it was a fiction in some places but not others.) Now there's something I can agree with wholeheartedly. So long as "some others" means "the people carrying out Craig's orders."

So, if there's no paper trail, it never happened. Here's what we do know. lcm made a number of draconian statements in public concerning money, and said twi'ers should be expecting to give 15%. lcm has closed-door communications with the corps and leadership as normal. Leadership at all levels begin shaking the people down for 15%, and invoking social sanctions when they don't. (Face-melting sessions, lots and lots of "oversight", leaning into what normally would be called "harassment" if private citizens did it. So, lacking a sealed document saying "I, lcm, demand 15% or you're fired from this group", all of that is just an amazing coincidence, I'm sure. twi's NEVER been in the habit of putting policy in writing. This is, of course, the perfect blanket excuse for excusing them every bad policy they ever enacted- "I never read this policy, so it didn't exist and they never had it." Mind you, even if this DID magically excuse them, doesn't it strike you as VERY suspicious that you can't find a policy manual or handbook for twi even to save your life?

"Peace and trust can win the day in spite of all your losing"

Waysider: "I do recall a twig of senior citizens who were told by a representative of HQ they would either have to disband or stop representing the twig as part of twi. If memory serves me HQ said the twig was not diverse enough...............OH! ........did I mention none of them tithed? This was many years ago. There probably aren't too many of them still with us. I know they were quite hurt when all this took place." This was about them not-tithing. If they tithed, twi would have been just fine with their makeup. Is anyone here a big enough fool to think otherwise? (What am I saying?) Radar: "UH...............YEAH, OF COURSE I HAVE. Anyone involved with twi from 1994 til present will have at least a handful of stories, including one of the founder's sons." Skyrider: "The percentages went from 10% to..."one should be willing to give 15% in the grace adm". And, by 1997.... martindale was pushing his plurality giving doctrine. All full-time way corps heard these teachings. By plurality giving, martindale stated that one -- after paying off these bills and having their need met -- should be WILLING TO GIVE THE REST TO TWI. As former corps (left twi in 1998).....I detest how the board of trustees (craig, don & howard) deceived good-hearted believers and extorted money for twi's coffers. All the while, taking trips to the Bahamas and southern Florida and stashing millions into twi investments. Thankfully, I refused to go to believers' homes and demand a financial reporting of their income and absing. Oldies...........get off this thread. You have NO IDEA what twi's "official" policy is. rolleyes.gif " Oldiesman: "Then please share those handful of stories. What happened? Was there ever an edict handed down from the trustees that mandated tithing, else one was asked to leave? If so, when? Is there any documentation available about that requirement? These are some questions of this thread." What's the point? When people get into specifics and eyewitness accounts, you just move to discredit them anyway. It gets tiresome to keep doing this same dance to EVERY tune. "I'm not whitewashing anything and have no desire to deceive. I'm simply asking questions." You may see it that way. Everybody who's sat thru years of you posting-with few exceptions- all seem to draw a DIFFERENT conclusion. "I disagree with the extortion accusation, and I absolutely can't imagine in my wildest dreams, Don Wierwille extorting money from folks. Any specific incidents?" Doesn't sound like "simply asking questions"-looks like spin control on the accounts in effect even before they're shared. Although you "can't imagine in your wildest dreams" is remarkably candid. That's been true about lots of "this happened to me" stories so far. ============= I'll throw in this one for free. AFAIK, nobody's saying that Don had two 400-lb kneecappers slam a person into a wall while Don held a gun to their forehead until they handed over the money. If you were being intellectually honest and communicating in good faith, you wouldn't be so obtuse on this. Don's complicity is PRIMARILY in the NEGLECT of his fiduciary responsibilities. People were leaned on to give money and to follow leadership blindly. When they hesitated, they were screamed at in detail, and their reputations were smeared. They were indoctrinated that leaving twi meant leaving God's Protection, and many or MOST were told horrible things would happen to them or their families, including that they and their family members would DIE. No, I'm not aware of someone speaking this "leave twi and die" in the 70s. However, it was COMMON in the later 90s. We've got threads mentioning this. We have autobiographicals on this. We have AUDIO FILES on this. If you're still not up to speed on this one, I recommend playing a little "catch-up." You've only had YEARS to read/hear this stuff.... Let me rephrase this more simply, for those people who STILL don't get it: twi taught that you had 2 choices: obey blindly or leave God's protection and have horrible, Job-level things happen. One of the points of obedience was money. MUST tithe, MUST push to 15%, or you're in trouble; STAY in trouble and you're kicked out of twi AND God's Protection. (THIS WAS COMMON IN THE 90s.) Public spectacles and examples were made of people who left- which tells the rest "stay or we do this to YOU next." The bod was well behind the shakedown of money under this "doctrinal" and "leadership" smokescreen. Each member of the bod either agreed to it and signed off on it, or was so incompetent and neglectful of his fiduciary duties that he did not and LET it go on. Now, it sounds like others know MORE than I do, but what I outlined is MORE than enough. For people with HONEST questions.

"Can't Fight This Feeling," REO Speedwagon.

Let's see.... They stopped mentioning money every five seconds. They're making preparations to increase outreach. A coincidence?

Anything in particular you want more on? Yeah, actually. Anything from either the "Trusting God, Our Source of Abundance: We can expect to receive what God has promised us from his word" article, or the "The Benefits of Believing Together" article that correlates receiving from God with giving twi money, or obedience to twi as a requirement for the "benefits", or statements where God is REQUIRED to provide what you wanted because you believed for it. I'm expecting AT LEAST ONE of those tired old cliches will be there, and if all 3 are there, I'm awarding myself "The Hat Trick." (Or should that be the "Trifecta"?)

You and the courts see things differently than Oldiesman. I know the holders of the various copyrights certainly CAN sue, legally. As to anyone else, I have no idea.

Correct-the LATEST it became a policy was in pfal. Both pfal-vpw's class and wap-lcm's class included/include a book that talks about nothing BUT the tithe and how it's expected. Job 31:35 (KJV) "Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book." Taught in twi under vpw AND lcm- and mentioned during the AOS video. (Which we were expected to watch over...and over...and over... so it's easy for me to recall that-including the chapter and verse citation.) ================= I expect some people were harassed BECAUSE of refusing to tithe until they got sick and tired of being sick and tired, and left. Then the official reason they left was that they "copped out". The truth of the matter is slightly more complicated. ================= There's LEGAL sanctions (pay your taxes or you will be fined-pay the fine AND the tax or you will be jailed) and there's violence sanctions (give me all the money in your wallet or I will break the bones in your face) and there's SOCIAL sanctions. vpw himself taught on this, more than once. Here's the Scripture he used that I've heard him use.... "John 9: 1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. 12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not. 13They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind. 14And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes. 15Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see. 16Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. 17They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet. 18But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight. 19And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see? 20His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 21But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 22These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 23Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him. 24Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. 25He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. 26Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? 27He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? 28Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. 29We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. 30The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. 31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 32Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out." Now, to be kicked out of one church now, he said, is not a big deal- you can go down the block and join another. But in that place and time, to be kicked out of the synagogue was tantamount to being declared no longer a Jew. It meant other Jews could not deal with you as a Jew and so on. That's a SOCIAL SANCTION. You didn't do what they said- so your punishment is social. In this case, you were shunned. twi didn't hold a gun to your head. (Most of you.) However, all of you who were subjected to face-melting sessions by "leadership" for failing to tithe or abundantly share to the degree they considered sufficient, or failing to follow "suggestions" like "help me move" or "come clean my house" or "asking questions" faced SOCIAL SANCTIONS. Was there an overt threat of violence? No. Was there a threat and consequences? YES. You all saw people who left or were kicked out, and were told that this equated a death sentence since leaving twi ("GOD'S PROTECTION") meant harm and death were imminent. If anyone needs me to pull up some examples, I can do so. Was that a LITERAL gun? No. However, twi threatened death would come for the families-including children- who left twi. That's as close as they could legally come TO a gun without making a big bang sound.