WordWolf

These questions really transcend the twi experience and may be summed up with one question. i.e., why does God allow evil to exist?Best answers I ever got to this question were taught in PFAL. Yes, we all know how much you learned there. I learned quite a few things there myself. Of course, we both could have learned this MANY OTHER PLACES, and relatively FEW of those places were or are run by leaders who callously abuse and betray the trust of their followers, and relatively FEW of them have leaders who plan and execute evil, and excuse it by slapping a Christian label on their actions, or claim God approves-or at least does not DISapprove of their evil deeds.

By that logic, anything beyond "yes" or "no" was ALSO off-topic, because she never asked "where can I find CFF?" She just asked "does anybody here fellowship with them." See, most people-unless she made it clear she was hoping to SKIP such discussion by saying "please confine discussions of its merits and flaws to another thread", would consider it on-topic to thus discuss "is it a good idea to fellowship with CFF?" which, although she did not ASK that question, does indeed seem RELEVANT to discussing whether or not someone DOES "fellowship with them". =========== Actually, you can blame me for this one. Since you and Allan had expounded at length about discussions of problems with CFF, ("abuse abuse abuse") I thought such a discussion had actually BEGUN. Since it did NOT begin, my defense of it was senseless- but then, so does any complaint that someone is discussing problems with them. :D-->

This post is meant specifically for the people who just got here. Hello! This is the About the Way forum, of the Greasespot Cafe messageboards, on the Greasespot Cafe website. Let me give you a small tour of them, in reverse order. ==== First, the website. The main page is here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com The purpose of the website is here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/aboutus.htm The MAIN MENU of the website had access to many documents. Some of them are direct quotes from twi leaders. Some of them are editorials and commentaries on actions taken by twi. For those of you who are not experts on EVERYTHING about twi, I recommend taking a few WEEKS and looking over EVERYTHING in the MAIN MENU and DOCUMENTS sections. You will certainly be surprised by SOME of the things you will find, no matter WHO you are. ===== Now, then, the Discussion Forums. Their groundrules are here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/forums.htm After reading them over, just click to enter the Forums. As you can see, there are many forums. Some (down below) are Archives of significant discussions. Some are meant for finding extwi people, asking for prayer, and so on. Some discussions (like Politics) will be controversial. Some threads, in fact, some forums, will probably offend you. I recommend not entering those forums. :D--> No one will penalize you for being disinterested in a particular forum. Frankly, if you find yourself involved heavily in ALL the forums, I recommend turning the computer off for a while and walking around. The GREASESPOT 101 forum will be of some use for you in "coming up to speed". It's where posts are placed that are intended for new people to read pretty early on. As you can see, not every forum is even vaguely relevant to discussing twi. Two of them will be of particular interest for those who want to discuss twi a lot: Doctrinal, and About The Way. 'Doctrinal' is where discussion of teachings, doctrines and answers to the question "what is God's true position on...?" For all other discussions on The Way, proceed to About The Way. In About The Way, we discuss practices and policy of twi, both PAST and PRESENT. We discuss the origin of practices and policy, and the TRUTH behind things we were told by various leaders. We also discuss the morality of the actions taken by leaders in twi, and what the RIGHT thing to do would have been, and the consequences to the people of the actions they took. ===== Please note that it WILL surprise you that twi never told you the truth behind MANY things that happened-like the many lawsuits, and the many times lcm was caught committing adultery. It WILL surprise you to see the degree of plagiarism used by vpw- who took nearly everything he ever taught from other people, then went on to claim-in writing-that it was all from God and him and no one else working on it. vpw occasionally mentioned slight assistance by a few other Christians in a few things, but the truth of the matter is that he copied entire works of those people whom he characterized as being slightly useful. vpw claimed to have a connection to God UNIQUE to Christians since the First Century AD, and taught that twi thus had truths UNKNOWN since that time. Those were all deliberate lies, and the full details are all over this forum. You will PROBABLY be hurt, shocked, and offended at many things that happened in twi history. You will probably be hurt, shocked and offended at many things done BY Victor Paul Wierwille, L.Craig Martindale, and many others. Your first impulse might be to call all the people who speak against twi as "liars". Please keep reading before CONCLUDING this is the case. Do you think ONE person's account of being raped is false? Keep reading-MANY women have come forth. Many spoke out at the time of the rapes, and twi was able to make them disappear. With the invention of the internet, this is now IMPOSSIBLE. Do you think ONE person's claim of plagiarism is false? Keep reading-MANY books have been shown, line by line, to have been lifted entirely from other writers. Do you think ONE person's claim of leadership ruining lives is false? Keep reading-MANY people's lives were ruined, and many people have spoken out. Many of you have had specific wrongs done you by people in twi. You probably said that you were the only such victim. Keep reading. Chances are, there were MANY people who were victims of the same wrong-and they've already posted on this. Know someone who was drugged and raped? Know someone who was molested as a child? Know someone who was beaten 1/2 to unconsciousnes by 'children's fellowship'? You're not alone, and we've discussed all of them. === Please understand that if you are prepared to call hundreds of people LIARS, and to claim that ALL evidence that twi was an evil, ungodly organization which attracted many loving, Godly Christians, that you are in the MINORITY here. Most here have formed their opinions based on the INFORMATION they've found from MANY sources (this site and others). Some posters are no longer Christians. Many are Christians who don't accept some, many, or most of the things twi taught as "The Truth". The non-Christians have different opinions, and some of them hold nothing against Christians. The various Christians have different opinions, and some of them are comfortable with brothers in Christ with whom they disagree doctrinally. There is no one single opinion of the posters. There is no universally accepted opinion of the posters. (There are even a few people who are convinced vpw never wronged anyone.) Please try not to be accusatory, vicious or otherwise rude in posting. Enjoy your stay. Oh- Please note: twi has people who read EVERY post here (including this post.) If you sign up as a member, and are still IN twi or know ANYONE still in twi, it is a good idea to leave all personally identifiable information out of your profile AND your posts. They try to assemble clues to the identities of posters in an attempt to control the flow of information from twi. NEVER POST ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WANT TWI TO LEARN. ================================================= Regardless of how much you and I will personally disagree on many subjects, I hope that all of you will look things over and make informed decisions, and sensible ones, even if they're not decisions I would have made. Finally, if you find that you are disinterested in the discussions here, leave! There's no law saying you have to read anything here, let alone post. Go find a messageboard and website you LIKE- there's millions of them out there! The "links" list has several you might like BETTER than this one, even.

Allan, you really should try harder to understand the discussions we are having here. I'll provide some examples and explanations, using this thread (with one exception). rascal said and you replied Now, then, let me explain the quote from rascal, to which you objected. Apparently, you have forgotten the keys you learned in understanding the Bible from when you were in twi. One of them was to keep straight the ADMINISTRATIONS, the time-frames. What was the time-frame rascal spoke of? The GSC posters and readersare almost entirely all extwi people. We are of different beliefs, including atheism, paganism, Christians of every stamp, and other things I can't spell. Only a small percentage of us are in 'cozy little fellowships'. That is NOT the current state. However, this describes how things were back in the 70s and 80s when we were in twi and vpw was alive. Is this describing situations nowadays? There is no Rome City campus-twisold it off. There is no Family Corps-the entire Corps nowadays graduates in numbers small enough for the entire graduating class to fit in a Geo Metro. Lindy and Georgio are adults now and grew up long ago. This is obviously not referring to the current state of things. It seems to describe twi in the 70s and 80s-when there was a Rome City campus, and a Family Corps, and Lindy and Georgio were being beaten for failing to smile convincingly when someone sneered at them. The word "meanwhile" indicates that the events were simultaneous-or at least happening in the same 24-hour cycle. This is ALSO not a CURRENT description. vpw hasn't taught Bible lately-hot, cold or any other temperature. He died in 1985, and he's been pretty quiet since then. (Or have you been hearing messages from him since then, where he's been teaching you Bible? That's the only way you can FAIRLY misunderstand the statement.) "the teacher"-context, the man mentioned teaching:vpw, who called himself "The Teacher". the driver is drugging a woman so vpw can rape her more easily. This has been documented as happening in vpw's life. Since he died in 1985, I'm unaware of anyone drugging women so that vpw can rape them. Dead men make poor rapists. Finally, the wow program was cancelled in the mid-90s and has been past-tense for the past ten years. So, it should be obvious-to anyone with ANY familiarity with: vpw, the wow program, the Family Corps, the Rome City campus- that rascal was speaking of events in the 70s and 80s, and NOT of things CURRENT. Your response? We ALL know she is not involved with any 'fellowship' groups TODAY, and she NEVER SAID SHE WAS. Your inability to "read what is written", thus allowing the word of rascal "to interpret itself", led you to this misunderstanding. You'll notice the rest of us had no difficulty understanding her the first time.... As for me, I really take offense at your refusal to read what she wrote rather than what you decided she said. She puts forth that she has a penchant for God? Looks like she's seeking answers to some difficult questions. Doesn't sound like she's decided she has all the answers. Doesn't sound like she's ready to blame God for the evil actions of vpw, lcm and the others, either. "Blaspheming God?" Where is she "blaspheming God", let alone at every opportunity? If by "blaspheming God", you mean "embracing wildly ALL the actions vpw did", then I suppose she's "blaspheming God." Keep in mind that this definition is not consistent with the rest of the people who use the English language, and you are not allowed to just redefine the language when you see fit. You followed up by claiming she when she said she was and To any NORMAL reader, she was making a difference between God and Christian values-which she has no problem with and a man and ministry-which she blames for much evil but you seem unable to see the distinction. She was not "trying to lay the blame on God". You also said, of yourself This is not how most people would see posts like when making it clear that you were aiming that at rascal.Most people would consider that post "personal name calling". Goey already beat me to explaining rascal's use of the rhetorical question. Rhetorical questions are one of the 217 Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, as named by EW Bullinger and taught in twi. The figure of speech is called in latin "Interrogatio" and in the Greek "Erotesis". NOW you can look it up in Bullinger's book. It's in the last division: Figures involving change affecting the application of words 6. As to Argumentation. It is the FIRST listing in that category. Alternately, you can look at it up in Appendix 6 of the Companion Bible.

Allan, AFTER rascal said you replied This mis-characterized rascal's comments as follows: 1) accuses her of not loving God 2) accuses her of not loving the Bible 3) accuses her of not enjoying "fellowshipping" with Christians. This also makes the following assumptions: 1) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" love God 2) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" love the Bible 3) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" enjoy "fellowshipping" with Christians 4) ONLY extwi'ers have 'The Truth'. As to assumptions 1,2 and 3, if you don't see how this is wrong, you really need to spend some time with other Christians-in a non-confrontational attitude. Volunteer at a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter. Work WITH them to do something worth doing. They don't all enjoy spitting on the Bible, which some in twi (like vpw and lcm) suggested all other Christians did. As to assumption 4.... A) All accurate information in twi (about 99% of it, possibly more) CAME FROM sources OUTSIDE of twi. Thus, 99% or more of The Truth has been out there since before twi. twi was NEVER as "elite" as its propaganda put forth. B) Some of twi's doctrine was WRONG. Period. Unquestionably so. Review some of our discussions on the "Law of Believing" and how it is incorrect from Scripture sometime. Your next post was just a plain insult aimed at rascal, and pretending not to be. If it was stated outright instead of your "clever" implication, it would read Neither the direct nor the "slyly-phrased original" were examples of a Godly approach to her. After that, you then asked her and Well, Allan, that is your PERCEPTION. rascal, from the beginning (scroll up on this post) said that she doesn't find God such a small God that He only appears in the little box that twi placed Him in, and that God does not require working with liars, rapists and so on in order to bless His people. Isn't that what she said? Yep, sure sounds like what she said. Sounds like her true motive was-and still is-exactly that. Sounds like any difficulty in swallowing is in the reader, not the post. Now then, are you putting forth that when one says "God and His Word" one means "God and His Word ONLY as presented by twi"? If so, then yes, you and rascal are in disagreement. Mind you, if that's what you mean, there's a LOT of evidence to demonstrate that your position is error. If you'd like, we can discuss this in the Doctrinal forum. Or, you can just review the threads on individual doctrines that were ALREADY discussed. Then you can make an INFORMED decision as to whether or not the ONLY people who ever taught truth was twi and anyone they taught. Or, you can choose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, and embrace whatever doctrine pleases you emotionally. As an adult, that IS an option for you. (Some adults HAVE made that deliberate decision, and that is THEIR choice as well.)

"What does that have to do with the question? Nothing." Incorrect, and, although others already explained, but I'll explain again. "It is clear that she was looking for a Bible-based fellowship, but that can't happen. No! We must educate them on what they really need. I suppose we are too stupid to know what we want." No, you're just unable or unwilling to see the relevance of the answer. Although others already explained it, I'll explain again. ==== At this very moment, there are A)God-loving Christians who are trying to leave twi, B)God-loving Christians who just left twi C) God-loving Christians AFRAID TO LEAVE twi [There are also other types of people, and I'm not pretending there aren't.] The Christians afraid to leave twi are afraid to leave for many reasons. Some are afraid to leave behind friends and family members. Some are afraid to face a completely-changed life. The BIGGEST fear for Christians afraid to leave twi is one that was CAREFULLY CULTIVATED by twi. twi taught-and still teaches- that only twi has "The Truth". (That's one reason vpw had to keep lying that he had no significant sources-the sources were proof that he wasn't the only 'Teacher' with 'The Truth'.) twi thus taught-and still teaches-that to leave 'The Only Group With The Truth' is to leave 'The Truth' and you will be unable to serve God and learn from God if you leave. (I'm not even addressing the 'leave twi and die' stuff.) So, some people leave ANYWAY. Once they have left, many Christians have not surgically-removed all twi doctrine from their brains. It doesn't happen like clicking a screen-icon...it takes TIME, WORK, and INFORMATION. So, many Christians leave twi and think that they can't find ANY places that teach 'The Truth'. So, they say, well, all other Christians teach lies, but other people left twi- maybe I will have a chance to hear 'The Truth' from them. It can't be much worse than what I left. So, they then seek out the extwi groups. It would be of considerable benefit to many of them to learn that other Christians aren't all the undereducated, idolatrous idiots twi has taught they were-and still teach they were. Therefore, it is of considerable benefit for many of them to learn this-which means that a Christian genuinely interested in helping another Christian to let them know that there are many Christians NEVER affiliated with twi who are quite good. (Many people still think "Babylon:Mystery Religion" was accurate, even though the AUTHOR has written a sequel completely REPUDIATING it, and it is useful for them to be told that he wrote such a book, and its name: "the Babylon Connection?") So, is it irrelevant to warn people that a group they are looking into has hurt people in the past? If you say 'yes', what are you doing on the GSC? Is it irrelevant to tell people who have been indoctrinated "only WE know The Truth!" that lots of people know 'The Truth' and not just people who were miseducated the same manner they were? You seem to be saying "Yes" by saying it is irrelevant. I say "Make sure they are INFORMED. Then they can make their own decisions. Thus, more information is a GOOD THING." (So long as it's not lies or misinformation.) ======== "Are we supposed to feel guilty because we enjoy Bible fellowship?" Have you stopped beating your wife? --> Duh. Of COURSE it's not wrong to attend a Bible fellowship, nor is it wrong to ENJOY one. For many people, it's probably the BEST option. HOWEVER, it is NOT the ONLY viable option, and it behooves us (horses have behooves) to point that out, and allow them to seek out what works BEST for THEM. To turn this question around into a different unfair question: "Is it wrong to warn someone when they leave one abusive cult and prepare to join another?" Yes, it's an unfair question. You're making it sound like the Christians onsite all said that the extwi groups are all JUST AS BAD as twi. Of course they didn't say that. There ARE problems and pitfalls to avoid, and it is a GOOD THING to make them aware of them, ISN'T IT?

Hello, ChainClanker. I think CC meant that he/she did not intend to insult any particular ethnicity or "race" or skin colour or whatnot in using a derogatory term that originally was used for one group and has also been used for other groups from time to time. (I have seen someone refer to Middle Easterners as "sand-niggers" when thinking out loud.) Actually, since that usage was by someone in Texas, I think that it might be a regional thing to misuse the word "nigger" by tacking it on to other words and give it a similar meaning. Please remember CC did not ORIGINATE the term, and simply passed along what someone else said (not that s/he was disagreeing with the connotations, but there is a difference.)

Ozzy Osbourne Austin Powers:Goldmember John Travolta [As a special note, Ozzy and John played themselves in Little Nicky and Goldmember.]

*lightbulb* "Man on the Moon". :D--> The Andy Kaufman story. If I'm right, someone else can go ahead and post something.

Sounds vaguely familiar. Something lyrics-driven, like U2 or something....

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/edit...exit-advice.htm I recommend that letter for general advice. (I recommend reading ALL the documents off the main site at least once a year to refresh your memory, but nobody seems to take that advice.) ----- Some things to remember: 1) They will NOT "play fair" with you. Therefore, as with anyone who cheats in a game, the only smart move is not to play. Leave and let people know AFTER THE FACT that you have LEFT. Have a logical set of reasons for those you respect. Some of them-and all the people in the hierarchy- will attack you no matter what you say. They will spread vicious lies about you to those who stayed. Expect that and provide contrary information to those you wish to tell. They're adults and are supposedly able to think on their own. ========= In case you'd like to see the US Declaration of Independence, you may find it many places, including here: http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/ As you can see, it wasn't dashed off in a moment. It was the result of the chain of events that preceeded it, and it states several of them. "...a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes.... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." They explained their situation had progressed, and all methods of redress short of independence had proven ineffective. They gave specifics. Ultimately, the only persons you owe an explanation to are yourself and God.

It is understandable, if incorrect, if someone completely unaware how SOME lives were destroyed by twi, forcing people to start from scratch, can lack empathy for those forced to start over. After all, if someone sees someone else in a bad mood, and they're not aware that person's house just burnt to the ground, they might think the person lacks a sense of perspective. In those cases, the person lacking empathy simply needs to educate and inform his/herself better as to the reason for the complaint. twi utterly ruined the lives of some people, and partially ruined the lives of many others. It is understandable that people be angry that someone sucked out their life to further their own creature comforts. (The ultimate goals at the top seem to be the luxuries for the people at the top, purchased at the expense of those coerced into giving 10-15% of their income or facing ostracism and expulsion-after being conditioned to believe that to face such is a death sentence. ============== Further, if a criminal has stolen one's house and car, and is currently enjoying use of both, even if the thefts were decades ago, it is not inappropriate to continue to speak out against them. Finally, if someone is seeking innocents to victimize, it is the moral responsibility of those who know this to warn those who do NOT know this. twi's ability to draw new victims to suck dry has been hobbled by the warnings of people all over the world wide web, and especially here. :)--> So, so long as they seek even ONE more victim, we will continue to speak out and warn the public. LOTS of people read what we post here. ======= Now, there are people who are AWARE what others have suffered thru at the hands of twi, and still tell them to "get over it." Their position is that they were unharmed by twi, and so those who claim that THEY were, are exagerrating or lying. Those who say such things were harmed in a most insidious way, for they WERE harmed- their ability to exercise their senses to discern good and evil has been crippled. So, until they understand the clever nature of the harm that was done to themselves, they will continue, in the manner of one who was abused, to continue the cycle and verbally abuse posters here who tell their stories. I leave it up to each individual poster to examine their own hearts and determine if anything I've said above applies to them. Ironically, those who NEED to do this the MOST are the ones LEAST likely to do so, but that goes without saying.

A little more on Leonard. BG Leonard, of course, is never mentioned in pfal-neither the class nor its books. If he was, someone might have been inclined to read some of his work and spot most of the pfal class. If you dig, the ONLY mention EVER made by vpw to Leonard was in the propaganda book "the Way: living in love". vpw said of Leonard that vpw claimed that he himself took Leonard's work and This, of course, is an outright lie. Leonard WAS great with The Word. That's why early pfal classes were nothing BUT Leonard's work. vpw never "put it all together with The Word" because it was already together with The Word. Mrs W, years later, gave the following account of BG Leonard. This is from "Born Again To Serve", copyright 1996. Seems there's a discrepancy here. vpw claimed BG Leonard wasn't very useful, and not with The Word. Mrs W claimed BG Leonard was indispensible and knew his Bible. In light of the fact that Leonard's explanations FROM the Bible all ended up in pfal, I believe it's clear Mrs W told the truth, and vpw lied thru his teeth. WHY did he lie thru his teeth? Because it allowed him to manipulate his image and appear more impressive, claiming he had unique knowledge and ONLY his group had this special knowledge (which was being taught by Leonard before vpw ever HEARD of him). It was wrong to lie, it was wrong to plagiarize, and it was wrong to misrepresent himself. A man of God ought not to sin so grievously.

For the benefit of those of you arriving late, I thought I'd mention a little about BG Leonard. "Brother Leonard" was a Christian up in Canada. He taught a class on understanding and applying the Bible. Among the hypothetical names he used were Johnny Jumpup Maggie Muggins Henry Bolocco His books were printed under the corporate name "Canadian Christian Press." Not long after vpw sat thru BG Leonard's class, vpw started running classes on understanding and applying the Bible. Among the hypothetical names he used were Johnny Jumpup Maggie Muggins Henry Bolocco His books were published under the corporate name "American Christian Press." The body of material from Leonard's class seems to have been copied over entirely into vpw's class. At least one person who took both said they find vpw's idiosyncratic pronunciations of certain words to be a copy of Leonard's speech patterns, as well.

He claimed "an apostle is one who brings new light to his generation. It may be old light, but to the people he brings it to, it's new." Actually, an apostle is a SENT ONE. vpw invented his definition so that it would just happen to apply to him. He claimed he was teaching "The Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century". Therefore, he expected his audience to figure out he was supposedly an apostle. As Goey pointed out, he said "a prophet is one who speaks for God." It IS true that he claimed that "technically" David's sin with Bathsheba was NOT adultery, since "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king." That's straight out of PFAL, both the classes and the books. It comes up frequently on lists of Actual Errors in pfal.

The "riddle of the Sphinx" thing is straight out of Bullinger's "Witness of the Stars". What did lcm say about it?

Oenophile, thanks, it is coming along great. I get what you mean, but perhaps it was a good thing for some of us that we didn't know. Yes, it was better that he be allowed to deceive us!!!! The lesson here is that the man representing God should NOT SIN, not that we should ignore his sins. There's a difference between struggling against temptation, and deliberately making occasion for it. Deliberately choosing to hide your sources and claiming to originate the work, thus putting forth that yourself was some great one, is a decision, which you then put into action all by yourself. No, that is a separate issue. "Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth. But plagiarism matters. Plagiarism may not reflect on the accuracy of the information that's stolen, but it does reflect on the character of the plagiarist. The plagiarist is a liar, a thief, an arrogant, lazy, self-important person who dismisses the hard work of other people and disrespects the intelligence of his readers (by presuming the readers will never learn if the infraction.)" http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm Even if it was all 100% factually correct, the plagiarism was still wrong. God is ALWAYS working to help people. This is not a free pass to sin. However, should we refrain from sinning, or is it equally "right" to sin as much as we feel like, knowing God will keep moving even if we deceive the brethren and do other things to them that are sins and criminal actions?

THIS is the point. And it doesn't take an advanced degree to see that it's wrong- everyone CAN see that it's wrong.

Sorry Raf, I should have asked you BEFORE I pulled my little stunt. I thought an ILLUSTRATION would make the point clear. It's WRONG to take someone else's work, change a few words, maybe leave out a little, then claim you originated it. (You do that by failing to give proper attribution.) Plagiarism is morally wrong, AND illegal. Plagiarism demonstrates a moral failing on the part of the plagiarist. When the plagiarist claims to represent God, it shows a deliberate moral failing that shows he is unworthy of trust. Actually, in pulling my little stunt, I thought the extensive quote would be spotted immediately by everyone, since it was right off the main website. I thought people would see my point, which was in the closing of that post, which was the only part NOT ripped off from Raf...

Go to now, Mr. Hammeroni.Don't ya think that lots of folks who enjoy Wierwille's books might go out and buy the works of Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, et al.? See it in the "original"? Heck I would. We've been discussing this for most of a decade. Oldiesman? Would you really? Then, answer these simple questions... Do you currently own a copy of JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit"? How many books of Leonard and Kenyon do you own? How many of Bullinger's books do you own outside of "the Companion Bible" and "How to Enjoy the Bible"? For that matter, do you own THOSE books?

Less than you'd think-he plagiarized the 1942 promise! BG Leonard: Add "an early October invisible snowstorm", and inflate it to "like it hasn't been known" and you have the 1942 promise.

Friend Belle, being taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, and saying that VPW was the SOLE SOURCE of accuracy, are two very different things. Obviously, he wasn't the sole source. I think you are drawing conclusions that you shouldn't. "Obviously he wasn't the sole source." Obviously you've forgotten what vpw said about other Christians all the time, calling their seminary "cemetaries" and so on. He didn't "mellow out" on that over time, either. Here's what vpw himself said in May 12, 1985.... (not long before he died) "Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em!" How's that selective memory working for you?

As that book has it, he learned a little bit from THIS man and a little from THAT man, THEN he went and studied out the subjects from the Bible, THEN he assembled his pfal classes. "Putting it all together so that it fit" was NOT the original work. They ALREADY fit. All he did was assemble them together. That's hardly considered "originality". That's taking Leonard's class, adding Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" and calling it an original work. Furthermore, he NEVER gave proper attribution. twi was the result of ripping off a number of Christians, organizing it into an organization that concentrated authority at the top, then merchandizing it brilliantly. Any good car-salesman could have managed the same if he got a grounding in the right Christian sources. It wouldn't change YOURS. Great. It would have affected a lot of people who were-and are STILL being told- that the SOLE SOURCE of accurate knowledge of God is twi- and NOT that Christians in other places know much of ANYTHING.

Well, there is conflicting information about this. I don't have all the answers to this. VPW could have done a lot of the research on his own, which could have been the same research someone else did, years before. That's not impossible to imagine. Then again, we do have evidence of all the men of God he learned from who were scattered across the continent. No question he learned from these men. "THERE IS CONFLICTING INFORMATION ON THIS?" On what planet? vpw meets JE Stiles. vpw buys JE Stiles' books. vpw "writes" a book that uses IDENTICAL PHRASEOLOGY as Stiles' book-even when Stiles' vocabulary diverges RADICALLY from that of vpw's-using Stiles' ideas and his actual words. vpw is told about EW Bullinger's books. vpw buys every book Bullinger ever wrote. vpw "writes" books that contain entire chapters and subjects straight from Bullinger's books. vpw takes Leonard's class. vpw then goes out and teaches "his" class that contains a compilation of Leonard's class, Bullinger's book and Stiles' book. There is nothing that can argue AGAINST this. It's not impossible to "IMAGINE" all sorts of things-like God giving him the books by dictation or Jesus teaching from the Orange Book. However, even you admit that it is irrefutable he learned from those men. What possible reason could we have that he learned from those men (they were "scattered across the continent?" They were together and something split them apart?) THEN to go out and learn this for the first time from God? The only CONFLICTING INFORMATION is a desire to claim there were things he did NOT learn from the original writers.

Actually, it contradicts his claim. Had vpw been prepared to give proper written acknowledgement to other mens' ideas AND WRITINGS in his books, he would have been HONEST, thus obeying the laws of the US, showing proper respect to other men of God, and shown respect to his audience by telling them the truth in a truthful way. HOWEVER, if he HAD done so, he would NOT have been able to say "only God and I knew all this because I'm special". He would have been able to put for that he was A teacher, but not that he was THE TEACHER.