ckeer

Juan- you and every one else know the answer to that. It was their ball, their court and their game. It was their Way or the highway, and Katy bar the door. Since they were the only ministry with God’s rightly divided word all other ministries were counterfeit at best. Therefore LCM and VPW were only responsible to God. Let me share a story about belivers who questioned doctrine and what happened. There was a wonderful couple that lived north of Atlanta, they were not Corps, but they had run a twig for years when I arrived in 1986. The husband had a very successful window washing business he had several believers working for him. When Corps would move into the area, he would offer them a job, train them if necessary and give them enough of his existing customers to start them out if they wanted this. The couple paid off their home early and this was in the early 90’s before the get out of debt pushes. They were regularly and justifiable held up as examples of what great believers could and should be (often to their embarrassment). I was the assistant TC for their branch coordinator. I used to see them regularly at TC meetings. Then I didn’t, Then I just saw the husband then I didn’t see him. When I asked the Limb Coordinator what was wrong I was told that the wife had been teaching their employees that taxes and business expenses should be deducted from their income before they calculated their earnings (increase) and abundantly shared on that. The ministry position at that time was God first (abs before deducting taxes and business expenses). She would not back down. I hope it did not destroy their marriage. A couple of years later there was a big deal made that the BOT had gone to the Word to figure out how to ABS, they decided to go change to calculating ABS after taxes just as the now banished couple had been teaching. I’m sure there are lots of other examples out there.

WW you are right I appologize for straying into doctrine.

OM- Let me share my view on their “punishment”. It is based on different verses and teachings that refer to the judgement seat- Bema that every born again believer will stand before God. As I understand at the Bema every believer will be required to give account “of every idle word” (including every thing I posted at GSC? Oh Nooo ), Their works or actions will be tried with fire (to purify that which shall endure) and those which endure and remain will be rewarded. Those which endure may be eligible for “Crowns” or trophies which symbolically entitle those who have earned them with increased stature, responsibility and authority. As I see it at the Bema ministers and those who used their gift ministries well and genuinely will be rewarded with the knowledge that their ministries reached and blessed far more than they could have ever imagined and be given that much greater stature and responsibility with their crowns. Those that betray their gift ministries as VPW and LCM did will find that most of their actions and potential rewards were lost to them. They will be shown in excruciating detail where they blew it. They will be shown what they would have been entitled to.- This is their punishment. Perhaps ministers like Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles will be rewarded for the positive impact their ministries had on many of those who took the PFAL series, while the rewards that VPW and LCM should have received if they had not caused their ministries to become false will be lost to them and their rewards might be added to Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles. I also suspect that some how we will remember the periods of this life when we were “in fellowship and earning rewards” because that knowledge will be needed in our responsibilities and duties after the bema and for the rest of eternity. We will not remember the times when were not. Also some how those of us who stood at the Bema and like VPW and LCM and had such a major shock and loss of potential rewards will some how have the knowledge tempered altered or completely erased so that this will be true. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. As A graphic summary let me put it this way LCM liked to use the phrase after the Bema a lot people who lost rewards will be handed a broom. My view is that after the Bema VP and he will be assigned to bowl patrol in New Jerusalem and be working with me on a team I supervise. We may all be no more than happy blessed simpletons for all of eternity or we may have the opportunity to grow and redeem ourselves in some way through eternity, but where we start from after the bema will naturally limit how far we can go in terms of growth.

I would like to weigh in on the validity of your claim that these verses apply to VPW, LCM and TWI. I believe that VPW and LCM became false prophets and teachers like those mentioned in 2 peter 2. First they disqualified themselves from the positions they held. Then they attempted to hide the reasons for their disqualification and thus they undermined their own gift ministries thus making them false. (VPW was better at hiding it than LCM) It also appears to me that other leadership below them was aware, helped hide their actions and thus destroyed there own ministries, disqualifying themselves from the positions they held then and now hold. As I see it they both held the position of over seer (episcopos) or bishop mentioned in Timothy and Titus since they were both President of TWI the top spiritual and organizational position. They were both disqualified when they could be “blamed” for adultery, which I define as having sex with someone other than their own wife. I believe that the first time they committed that act they could be blamed by any public accusation. Therefore they were no longer blameless, the FIRST REQUIREMENT for that position. I am using http://www.blueletterbible.org/ To quote the KJV and Strongs For those who might have trouble accepting the fact that VPW committed serial adultery, please remember that the Passing of the Patriarch was published because women came to the author and asked him what the Bible said about adultery. In addition there are several regular posters who have personal knowledge of VPW’s actions and have posted enough to make credible accusations. I suspect the actual total of those involved is probably over a hundred and only one was enough. In fact from what I understand in Timothy and Titus it only takes the ability to credibly blame a person who is a candidate for the position of Bishop to disqualify them.

Shaz- I do see the irony now, in fact when I learned of LCM's sexual escapades and VPW's, I initally felt saddened but also relieved because I recognized that the house hold cleansing was a byproduct of the spiritual filth in LCM's life. It made sense in a TwistedWayI saw. As I understood it the believers in the ministry were crossing over from what was one "administration" that of VPW's vision of Word over the World- where everone who would believe had the opportunity to hear the rightly divided word through PFAL and the TWI to a new "administration" of The Prevailing Word. Now it was obvious that the Word was not prevailing in the world but LCM taught that the faithful believers could have the Word prevail in their lives if they followed and applied his teachings. It would be a Spiritual Paradise where the faithful household would enjoy sweet fellowship with God and signs miracles and wonders would abound. Now it looks like they traded a "patriarcal administration"- of grace that taught we were free from the law under VPW (Is this how VP excused his serial sexual exploits to himself?) to a "Law administration" under LCM where we free but had to exactly follow instructions and "suggestions" instanly to the greatest detail, and report back in detail and thank the inquisitors for their loving concern. (Is this how LCM excussed and hid from himself the sin of his own serial adultery?)

Thanks all- that was something I needed to share

Welcome wonder1, I hope you find what you are looking for at the caf?I know I have- myself. In reference to your subject as to “the ministry” being perfect, and your statement that no one is perfect. I think this why my wife and I were TOLD TO LEAVE (not by our own choice- not because we felt we were hurt by anyone). Let me explain: This was 1995-1996 and LCM’s new Way of Abundance and Power class had just been released. He had declared that the Word had gone over the World, and that he was going to lead the faithful in the household into the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. He had also made references in teachings to how when Israel crossed over into the Promised Land there was not a weak kneed Israelite who crossed over. Perhaps he was pointing out how God had protected strengthened and healed all those who crossed over, but the way it was received by local leadership and the rest of the believers in Atlanta that only those who constantly and indefatigably strove to live up to the STANDARD OF THE WORD would be allowed to “Cross Over”. In summary the Ministry was Perfect and you had be prepared to become perfect too or else. (Any one else remember that mind set in TWI at that time?) Anyhow here was my situation: My wife, who I had met and married in the ministry in 1986-1987 (the start of the fog years) was a diabetic and she had been since she was less than two. Now in her forties she had the kinds of deterioration that comes from long term diabetes, including kidney failure and deterioration in her central nervous system. (in 1997 a CAT scan revealed that he brain had literally shrunk and had many small scars –typical for her long term diabetes) When I brought her to Twig I had to lead her in and sometimes use a wheelchair. While she sat her eyes would close and she would relax- she was awake and could repeat every word that was spoken but she was scolded for nodding off during the teachings. I worked and spent an hour in the morning and another each evening setting up her dialysis equipment. I cooked, I cleaned as much as possible, I helped her bathe, did laundry you name it. I did the best I could but frankly I was overwhelmed and either did not realize it or would not admit it to myself or anyone else. I could not keep the house clean enough to satisfy leadership. The bathroom needed repairs- a shower needed re-tiling so I did that. I hired people to come clean- but they did not clean well enough. Where were the rest of the household you may ask? I wonder too, wonder1 since in the past believers were always willing to help and watched out for each other, but not this time. Why wasn’t leadership spiritually aware of my wife’s physical/neurological problem? I don’t blame them but if the ministry was perfect as I believed at the time and thus its branch and limb coordinators were as close to perfect as humanly possible why did they miss it? On to our last Twig- the branch coordinator was a special guest. I guess you could say we were the opening act. Our twig coordinator explained to us that I was not doing all I needed to remain strong in the household- basically I could not keep up with the house. The branch coordinator asked if we wanted to stay in the ministry and we both stated emphatically YES! He then said that if we had not said that he would have told us to leave and it would have been “Katie bar the door” (did he mean we would be Mark & Avoid? - I think so). He then asked us if we were willing to do what it would take to stay. I replied I’m not sure that it was possible and planned on explaining why since my wife and I were already doing all we could. (As you said wonder1 nobody’s perfect and we were about as perfect as we could be at the time- it just wasn’t perfect enough). I did not get the chance to say anything, he just told us to leave. From then on my Wife and I staid away from believers and ex believers living in our own little world believing that the ministry was perfect, and we weren’t. We believed it wasn’t anyone’s fault but our own. When my wife died in December of 2000, we knew nothing of LCM’s adultery and his stepping down. We did not know then as I do now that a wonderful nurse who knew us from the ministry did not make herself know to us because she thought we were still “innies” since she had left before we were kicked out. This post is longer and more involved than I had intended but I needed to say it all now for myself, Wonder1- Its one of the great things about GSC, it is a place to vent. Let me get to my point- At the time I left I believed and I also believe that the collective thinking within the ministry was that it was perfect and getting even more perfect therefore my wife and I were not perfect (enough) to be allowed to stay. I did not then nor I do I today blame those who were involved with us when we left. My conclusion is that the quest for perfection in the ministry magnified its imperfection and the imperfection of its leaders.. However this belief in the ministries perfection left me in an exquisitely painful limbo until mid 2003 when I began to look around on the internet to see what was going on with TWI since I yearned to go back but feared the possible pain of being kicked out again more than the hollow ache of being alone. Now I know that the ministry was not perfect and its leaders weren’t either. I am beginning to move on. I hope GSC and its regulars help you with your growth and healing (if you needed it) also.

From Advanced Class Special (Georgia?) Feb 5 1986 Sesssion 20 Dr W- 2 Gods- No man has full understanding of this field- Most people don’t believe there is such a field. Satan only afflicts Sons of God and makes his people appear to have abundant life. (Mr. Subliminal Says)YOU ARE BETTER OFF LIVING LESS THAN ABUNDANTLY IN TWI BECAUSE LIVING ABUNDANTLY OUTSIDE IS A COUNTERFIET- GIVE MORE! LIVE LESS! POVERTY AND NEED IS TRUE ABUNDANCE! Man with seed of Christ can still invite in Devil Spirits & be possessed. (Mr. Subliminal Says) IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US (FAITHFUL FOLLOWERS IN TWI) YOU ARE POSSESSED AND ITS YOUR OWN FAULT. EVEN IF YOU ARE IN AND AREN'T OBEDIENT FOLLOWERS YOU STILL MIGHT BE POSSESSSED AND ITS YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT- YOU INVITED THEM IN! Anyone can be possessed- unless they close their trap door- That takes believing (Mr. Subliminal Says) NOW YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO TWI LEADERSHIP PARTICULARLY VPW AND LCM- THEY WERE POSSESSED AND IT WAS THEIR OWN FAULT- THEY REAPED WHAT THEY HAD SOWN.

I think that VP's identification with Patton can blamed on Rock and Roll. Specifically the Rolling Stones Sympathy for the Devil (sorry I couldn't help myself,the devil made me do it) :o-->

Word Wolf what a howl! Its good to know God gave animals more senes than people

If I could ask one thing of TWI that they would have to answer under oath in court it would be this: What is the standard in TWI for dealing with extra marital sexual situations with leader ship? Are there two standards for TWI leadership? Consider these two situations that occurred in 1994 1995. In depositions made under testimony and referenced in a judges decision on this site it is clear that RFR was told by LCM about his sexual habits in 1995, and this was before the incidents that lead to the Allen lawsuit occurred in 1996. Consequences: LCM is dismissed and RFR is promoted but only when it is forced by the lawsuit in 2000- five years later In Atlanta around1994 a single corps twig coordinator was discovered to be having a sexual relation with a single woman in his twig (I knew them personally and knew they were “sweet” on each other but did not know how sweet) The corps twig coordinator was relieved of his twig but stayed in the area. His corps brother and branch coordinator had known for a while and covered for them. He was kicked out of the area and not given any responsibility. I was his assistant TC (not a big deal but that is why I was told these details). I was told that because he had covered it up he had actually been worse than the TC. This all happened as soon as Limb was aware of the problem- it was as quick and quiet as possible- but I have to believe that LCM was in on the original decision loop- another detail- the banished branch coordinator told me he wrote a letter of apology to LCM and ask if he could continue his ROA assignment as one of the PFAL cartoon characters- and LCM refused. Consequences: TC and BC both punished as soon as leadership above them was made aware of the situation. BC punished more and relived of any responsibility because he failed to act and pass it up the way tree. Anyone else know of situations like the one I describe in Atlanta?

I think this verse helps clarify the difference in accountability and responsibility in a situation of a extra-marital sexual relationships between leadership and those they lead. First the RSV version The Amplified Bible puts it this way: Both parties have responsibility and accountability before God, but the leaders is greater. One thing I know is how differently I have seen this handeled by different leaders at different times when I was in the ministry. In 1985 my soon to be wife was studing to be a massage thereapist. For practice and to bless a Corpse twig coordinator she gave him a massage. During the massage he took her hand and placed it on his genitals. She took her hand away and told him she was not giving that kind of massage. (massage school prepared them for that type of response) She finished the massage and told me about it and asked what I thought she should do, I asked my TC who was Corps how much slack you cut leadership where sex was concerned and he said none. I took my fiance to the branch Coord and she told him, he said he would take care of it but apparently nothing happened and then the whole passing of the patriarch came out and the fog years began. Contrast that with the early 90's when mt Branch Coord was relieved and hustled out of town because he had covered for a corpse brother who was single and sleeping with one of his twig members (I think they were in love but the pressure was on about having to go back into residence if you had a spouse corpse- so he probably figured he would be dfac if they married) Then the late 90's and LCM. When I first heard about it I could not belive it - such hypocracy.

Oldies- Yep- not only would I but I did- Literally! Face first about a 30 ft leap off family rocks (So named because they were such ball busters), LEAD- Tieny NM 1985. Of course there were strings attached (I was rapelling). I thought it was going to make me soooo spiritual! My short stint Corpse training was filled with activities to "take me to my breaking point and beyond so I would learn to go to God and learn to rely on Him". Many were foolish or downright dangeous in retrospect. I think the point about how the absolute authority and trust that I and others put ourselves under became self reinforcing and lead to behavior on the part of leadership that was evil is valid. Another example from TWI 2- anyone else remember what I called loyalty/humility tests? one example might be to require a believer to do repairs on his home within a certain period of time- or some other task- perhaps lose weight. Or tell one spouse that they could not come to twig or fellowship with believers for a week or two to see if that lead to "Godly repentence" and then when that spouse squared away pull the same stunt on the other one if they got out of line. I belive it may have contributed to if not caused divorces.I know it strained my marriage. Finally for about the last three years I was in TWI I lived with three fears: 1. I could not live up to the standard of GOD'S Word that was being demanded by LCM & Co. 2. I would eventually be kicked out because of no 1. 3. I would not be able to stand being separated from TWI after I left because they are the only fellowship with God's rightly divided Word. Thus they were right and I would be miserably wrong! So how did I go from PFAL which supposedly taught me I was a joint hier with Christ and could over come any fear with the Word, knowing that I knew that I knew that I knew because I had the keys to the Words intrepretation, to living with those three fears daily for three years? Perhaps lazyness and blind foolish faith in TWI on my part, but here was something else in the way I continued to be taught and lead and I belive it became increasingly evil.

Eagle- I think I still have a box of SNS tapes from about '92 till about '96. Was the statement made during that period and about when? One of last things I remember hearing on the tapes was that they might do someting with the internet in two or three years after they had gotten finances squared away beause of making all corpse staff.

Also the the "leader" of the Borg is a female a "Hive Queen". from one of the more recent Star Trek NG movies.

The thing to remember with media coverage in my opinion is that you have to recognise that it is liable to make both sides look bad because the media will be portraying the storybased on their own bias (agenda). But in this case who has the most to lose pat or TWI? I think unfavorable coverage would hurt TWI more than Pat.

I have read this thread and pats previous thread on the lawsuit and his documents. I don’t know much about the law and lawsuits and I will go with the comment made by some on the strength of the TWI claim versus the weakness of pats counter claim and suit. I would like to consider the value and cost of this lawsuit to TWI versus the value and cost to pat and indirectly the ex way GS community as a whole. TWI has the resources to fund this lawsuit indefinitely. Pat does not. Partly as a result of this their documents are stronger. If TWI looses the suit and does not get the domain name they have lost only money in my opinion since I suspect that this lawsuit is unknown to most of the staff much less the rank and file or general public. (perhaps a lurking innie could confirm or deny whether this or the Peeler lawsuit has ever been openly mentioned) If they lost they won’t mention it and their financial base of followers will never know. On the other hand they will proclaim a great victory and the details they want made known will be added to the What’s New at the Way page of their website if they win. This would provide the BOT with a big warm fuzzy feel good and be worth every penny they spent from their perspective. If Pat wins he may get some compensation for his time and money. He gets to keep the domain name. I assume this will make him feel good (it should!). If he looses he is out money and time but I assume he will feel he put up a great fight that may eventually weaken TWI and take comfort in that. But the harder he fights the better it is for TWI and even a win will be recognized only by a very small community (gscafe). Pats counter suit looks like an attempt to up the ante for TWI- increase the risk of a loss and also the financial and PR costs of a loss but doing this may weaken his case. If Pat wins on every point imagine how the BOT would spin a name change from The Way International to The Faithful Household of the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word of the Enlightened Few over Everone Else or whatever. Whatever the change they could do it in such a way that it would sound positive and divinely inspired to themselves and their followers- who would never know the legal reason- if it was done creatively enough it might even spur some growth. Once again this is a win for TWI. I wonder if there is a way to get this suit out to a wider audience. Is there a legal issue that could lead to wider interest by the legal or internet press? Is there some thing in this that could get the interest of religious organizations and media? Is there something in this that might interest someone in making a documentary about the suit? I suspect that unless the audience of this little legal drama can be enlarged to the general public to the point that there is a real possibility of regular members of TWI reading, hearing or preferably watching news about this suit during the day before they go to twig, the risk and potential cost of loss just isn’t an issue for TWI. At the same time I hope you stick to your guns fight and win Pat- but remember to shoot low I also hope we can help

Actually I expect that Loy will be on bowl patrol, and he will be required to use his tooth brush

Any one else remember LCM ranting a warning that those who left TWI would lose all their eternal rewards and after a stern session in the "Principals Office" be handed a broom because thats all they would be fit for? Of couse that kinda sounds like a typical day for in residence corpse from the mid 80's on! Is that heaven or hell? :)-->

I was reading thru Revelations, noticed these verses and began to wonder if one of the interpretations and applications to our day and time refer to VPW and TWI? Rev 2- 6. “But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.” Rev 2-14-But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I also hate.” From : http://www.harmonypbc.com/nicolaitans.html Isn't Nicolas the greek name that is equavient to the latin name Victor? What I wonder is if Nicolatian could mean follower of some one named Victor (Paul Weirwille) ? ;)--> Then would that make LCM and the BOT victimizers and the rank and file followers victims? :o--> Enquiring OPP minds want to know. -->

Oldies- I think I was in the OPP club but that was YEARS BEFORE I was asked to leave. Let me explain- Back in ’87 and ’88 in the middle of the fog years, I was living in Atlanta, we had already lost one limb Coordinator an where wearing out our second (JH). Twigs were splitting off and my wife and I were “invited” to join a twig run by the Limb coordinators assistant. It felt kind of “hinky” and his house did not accommodate my wife’s inability to climb stairs. I choose to go to a twig closer to our home that did not have stairs to climb. I learned soon after by over hearing a conversation (at a limb meeting if I remember) that my new twig was the one that held all the possessed people in the branch. (I kept my own consul at the time- looking forward to a target rich environment for discerning of spirits-Anyone ever hear of a policy of segregating believers into groups like that before?) JH and his assistant disappeared soon after. My wife and I were part of the few believers that ended up continuing to fellowship with TWI and served in rebuilding the ministry in GA. When more capable and in my wife’s case healthy people came in, we were pushed aside. And finally in about ‘96 we were asked/ told to leave. I guess that just proves I am a slow learner and glutton for punishment and I think that can be said for most if not all surviving innies at all levels this time. Although I would not label it as devil spirit possession, I would call it Psychological possession and perhaps addiction. I realize that a large reason for my endurance, suffering and reluctance to leave was based on fear and the belief that I could not survive outside the ministry- it was the only “safe” place to be that TWI was right and I had to be wrong. I think it is more accurate to say that you have to be “possessed” at least as I was to stay with TWI and the longer you stayed in the stronger the “possession” Therefore those of us at greasespot who were “possessed” in TWI are working out our deliverance here and now.

The discussion on H Allen's healing aroused my curiosity, I vaguely remember it from AC 1984 in San Diego. I did a search on herpes simplex encephalitis and this is the most concise info I found. I thought I'd share it with any other inquiring minds: http://medind.nic.in/imvw/imvw239.html

johniam- this is about John Bonham from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonham Also since we are talking about rock and roll and twi I remeber that one of the Atlanta area twig coordinators in the Mid 90's was a corpse grad who had been a backup dancer for Janet Jackson.

A couple of more PFAL rockers that I remember hearing of, if they haven’t been mentioned yet, Prince and Dave Garibaldi from Tower of Power. Another myth I remember from the time I spent at Gunnison was VPW’s prayer/curse on Gunnison that he supposedly made at its dedication- that if the TWI ever stopped teaching the rightly divided word that the entire camp would burn to the ground overnight. Boy would that have been a bonfire of the vanities!

For God so loves the Greasespots that He will save their lives. I have wanted to share this for a while, perhaps this is a good time: A year or two after my wife Sue and I were told not to come back to twig, Sue collapsed at home in our hallway because of low blood sugar (she was diabetic and had had two or three low sugars in the previous couple of days). She could not reach the phone, she could only cry out to God for help. This was about 10 am. and our upstairs neighbor heard her, Later I learned that the neighbor was usually gone before then and just “happened” to be there that day at that time. The neighbor knocked on the door but couldn't get in, another neighbor (who happened to be gay) called 911, they broke in through a window and took Sue to the ER. Sue was unconscious at that point so they did not know who to contact. Another neighbor (an acquaintance only) remembered the number of the company I worked for because it had been on a work truck that I had stopped using years before (My current truck was unmarked) and called my work number and the receptionist called me. I met Sue at the hospital and she was recovering. All of the people I talked to who were involved in this, neighbors, receptionist at work and nurses told me were amazed at the string of coincidences and gave God the glory. Both Sue and I had heard the grease spot doctrine from LCM. This event showed us that God still loved and protected us after we left the ministry as just as much as when we were in. If God had not worked through all these people both Sue and I knew I would have found her dead in the hall when I came home that night.