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HerbieJuan- Why doesn't anybody teach a course in normal Psych? Also do they have a course in para-normal psych ? :)-->

Herbiejuan- I think this is an interesting idea. I think there are similar patterns but I think the perceived or real imbalance of power is a part of the pattern of abuse and not a cause. It might be considered part of the system or perhaps vehicle of abuse. But it is not the originator, motivator, or fuel for the pattern of abuse. I think those are psychological, emotional, and personality issues that exist in the individual who has the real or perceived power in the abusive situation. The best explanation I have found is that these individuals have a deep seated fear within themselves that they cannot face. As a result they have either created or taken a position of power and authority in order to hide from their own secret fear. In extreme cases they project an image or reflection of their secret fear(s) on those around them over whom they have or take power. I agree that these patterns can be traced from one type of abuse to another but that you also have to recognize a couple of fundamental differences. One is the difference between abusive systems within a group (family), and abusive systems between groups. The other is how individuals in these abusive systems may have brought patterns or roles in abusive relationships that they replay in the new abusive systems (like child abuse making some people ready victims to VPW etc.). The other is the abusive patterns that are a requirement dictated by the group mentality. An example of this is how TWI II leaders had to become abusive in order to be good leaders. Another example is how the American prison guards in Iraq were encouraged to be come abusive. I agree there are some common ways to deal with abuse- the victims when they escape can seek whatever comfort and healing they can find and accept. The true victimizers (who were in the postions of power)- those who absolutely cannot face their inner fears and accept responsibility for the injury they have caused others cannot and will not change for as long as they live. Hebiejuan- those are my thoughts on this subject- what say ye? :)-->

No- they poured some one from the 60's ashes in a box (abandoned ?) and gave them to Lisa's famliy.

Nate is probably going to be sued over the ashes so it will probably look like they will lose the business by the end of the season.

Lisa showing up may be the only way Nate is going to get out of the deep do do he is in now that Lisa's famiy knows about Brenda conimg with him and that those aren't her ashes.

There may no evidence of smoking and drinking in his lungs- but his Death Certificate says there was evidence in his liver and eye (looks like that must be the real reason it was removed- not chronic headaches from the damage they recived when his spirit filled film crew screwed up the lighting at the beginning of the PFAL film class. As I was told)

2life- The last part of my post was meant in fun, Godd advice though

Zixar- did you clone the old drive on to the new one? using Ghost or somrthing like that?

2life- That is the sort of thing I am focusing on, Drink a lot less soda eat a little less food- when hungry not bored/anxious Does it work if my reminder phrase is "even thought I'm Still Chewing on these potato Chips", And finaly "even though I finished that Jumbo bag of chips" :)-->

2life I down loaded the EFT Manual and have started using it- let you know in a few days if I think its useful.

This is a link to info on upgrading a HD in a 501 PVR- let me know if it works- I have one too and wouldn't mind upgrading- ( don't want to risk killing it in the attempt- which is why I haven't tried) Here is the Upgrade info

I found another Gotcha- The security settings- accessible by clicking on the little red shield with a x on it may need to be set to allow communication with other devices on your intranet- other stuff in your home network. I have a printer hooked up to a wireless print server that all my computers can use. I had to put its address in as trusted before it would work again. Example- http://192.168.1.246/ You may have to do this to enable file sharing and printer sharing. (One reason I use the print server is that I don’t need to enable sharing on a computer so this is supposedly more secure)

Promised Land of the Prevailing Word- You can’t own it unless you pay cash- and then you’ve been holding back on your ABS so you don’t belong there anyway. Faithful Remnant- Those who are still allowed to come to fellowship and contribute to ABS and cross over to the promised lan (see above)

Hi roy- good to see you back- your input and thoughts are always welcome. Post or read

A guru I ain't- It came down the pipe as an automatic update and I let it install on my laptop. The update seemed to be ok- suppossedly one big thing is that the windows firewall does not protect from out going activity from your computers. Also if you already have a firewall (I use zone alarm which blocks both ways) you should disable the windows firewall so the two firewalls don't conflict. there are news stories about flaws. but what do you expect from windows anyway.?

JT- I think WTH's statements also come from The Way Living in Love (I thought I still had a copy but can't find it)

I vaguely remember The Dilemma of Foreign Missions manuscript on display in a glass case in the BRC in the late 80's - early 90's and a stop on the BRC tours. I think I also remember VP saying in some class or book ( the way Living in Love ?) that the dilemma was that the missionaries bought their converts with a small portion (like about 10%)of the money donated and the rest was "wasted" by the missionary organization. He also said that this report was very unpopular with denominational ministries and was suppressed. I think it was the result of a field trip he took to check on the missions that his church supported when he was still in his original denominational church. I would seem that he then used it as his thesis to obtain a doctorate from a theological correspondence school. I also remember VP saying somewhere that a Doctorate Thesis was the foundation upon which a lifetimes work was built. Perhaps in a way this was true for him. Did this report from a field trip paid for by his church and the missionary organization give him the information on how this kind of “Scam” worked? Did he then use it to obtain a credential that increased his credibility? Did he expose the “scam”, use it as part of a reason for his spilt from his denomination and then us it as a blueprint for organizational and financial aspects of what would become TWI? Cynically enquiring minds want to know

The sad thing about the title was that for many of us who were in the ministry and had taken his classes, the degree did not matter one way or the other. We were thankful to God for what VPW taught us. I really think the degree was for his own self image. Although "Dr Weirwille" does have a certain "ring" to it. And I can't imagine him being anything else

I guess you have to decide for yourself Here are links to info on Pike’s Peak Bible Seminary where VPW says he got his Doctorate in Theology. The first is from John Jude’s site: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_ipikepk.htm This is from another site with Cult info- It states that the Seminary is now defunct: http://www.namb.net/root/resources/beliefb...lts/the_way.asp A search using the phrase: Pike’s Peak Bible Seminary Only brings back accurate results in relation to VPW Remember that with VPW’s German immigrant background (and the Germans love of titles) being a DR. may have been a VERY BIG DEAL to VPW… He Had a Doctorate, but the institution that granted was never accredited.

Also I remeber some thing in reference to David and foreskins and penis worship. One of the discovery or history channel shows on Egypt talked about the egyptian army taking the penisis of the slain enemies and bringing them back to Egypt as offerings to their Gods. This was supposedly documented by some of their mosiacs on temple walls. I think the show particularly mentioned a campaign in Palestine. I think it was before the exodus though.

Hi- here is my Lynn-ier logic concerning Jesus Christ

The accounts here are more dramtic than what occurred when my wife and I were told to stop coming to twig. I have written about here in another thread and don't feel the need to repeat it. My impression was that the witnesses were there more for their seeing us as an example, than as a legal witness. I feel we became a teaching point to motivate them to remain obedient Kind of like having the crew of a old sailing ship all stand at attention to witness the flogging of a crewmember who was dissobedient in some way.

Sky4- I had posted on the what is Christianity thread on LES And noticed this thread you started on circumcision. In reading through it and checking the bible for context I think there are three different verses that illustrate three of the different points in this discussion. They are Gen 17:11, Deu 10:16, Deu 30:6 The first thing I noticed is that the Hebrew word for circumcise is different in the Deu verses. I am quoting Gen 17:1- 14 because it sets the original context of the covenant and circumcision. Scriptures and Strongs are from http://www.blueletterbible.org Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise ( 05243) the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token( 0226) of the covenant ( 01285) betwixt me and you. Strongs info on circumcise token and covenant in Gen 17: 11- Deu 10:16 – Deu Strongs Hebrew- 05243- circumcise - namal {naw-mal'} 1) (Qal) to circumcise, become clipped, be circumcised, be cut off AV - cut off 2, cut down 2, circumcised 1; 5 Strongs Hebrew- 0226- token - 'owth {oth} 1) sign, signal a) a distinguishing mark b) banner c) remembrance d) miraculous sign e) omen f) warning 2) token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof AV - sign(s) 60, token(s) 14, ensign(s) 2, miracles 2, mark 1; 79 Strongs Hebrew- 01285 covenant -b@riyth {ber-eeth'} 1) covenant, alliance, pledge a) between men 1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man) 2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects) 3) agreement, pledge (man to man) 4) alliance (of friendship) 5) alliance (of marriage) b) between God and man 1) alliance (of friendship) 2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges) 2) (phrases) a) covenant making b) covenant keeping c) covenant violation AV - covenant 264, league 17, confederacy 1, confederate 1, confederate + 01167 1; 284 Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed. Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. The covenant is to make a great nation out of Abraham. The token is circumcision. A simple analogy for me is that this is almost like branding a herd of cattle to me. The purpose is to remind the men and women of the covenant to remain a part of the nation. Sort of like reminding them to stay with the heard and breed true (maintain the blood line- in part to fulfill the promise of the messiah). Deuteronomy seems to be using circumcision as a figure of speech since there is not a foreskin on the heart. Deu 10:16 Circumcise(04135) therefore the foreskin of your heart(03824), and be no more stiffnecked.(07185+063263) Strongs Hebrew- 04135 circumcise - muwl {mool} 1) to circumcise, let oneself be circumcised, cut, be cut off a) (Qal) to circumcise b) (Niphal) to be circumcised, circumcise oneself c) (Hiphil) to cause to be circumcised 1) of destruction (fig.) d) (Hithpolel) to be cut off e) (Polel) cut down AV - circumcise 30, destroy 3, cut down 1, needs 1, cut in pieces 1; 36 Strongs Hebrew- 03824-heart- lebab {lay-bawb'} 1) inner man, mind, will, heart, soul, understanding a) inner part, midst 1) midst (of things) 2) heart (of man) 3) soul, heart (of man) 4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory 5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will) 6) conscience 7) heart (of moral character) 8) as seat of appetites 9) as seat of emotions and passions 10) as seat of courage AV - heart 231, consider + 07760 5, mind 4, understanding 3, misc 9; 252 Strongs Hebrew- 07185 Stiff - qashah {kaw-shaw'} 1) to be hard, be severe, be fierce, be harsh a) (Qal) 1) to be hard, be difficult 2) to be hard, be severe b) (Niphal) 1) to be ill-treated 2) to be hard pressed c) (Piel) to have severe labour (of women) AV - harden 12, hard 4, stiffnecked + 06203 2, grievous 2, misc 8; 28 I noticed that the Hebrews were to “perform the action of circumcision” here. and that the result or matching action that the figure is illustrating is to be no more stiffnecked - hard, severe, fierce, harsh (don’t be a d*ckhead?:)--> ) This reminds me more of verses in the New Testament to destroy the old man nature rather than referring to the circumcision of Gen 17:11 although it does figuratively But it seems to do so to build on it. Also it does not seem to literally be part of the circumcision covenant. Or it would have been there and not in Deu. The third verse is: Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise(04135) thine heart(03824), and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Here God is the on performing the action. It is probably still a figure but is in the form of a promise or guaranty rather than a commandment. It does not tell them to do some thing, God performs the circumcision of their heart and the result is that they will love the lord their God with all their heart and soul. Thus they will live (now and after the resurrection of the just?) It seems to me that these three verses build on each other and are almost a result of each other. If a Hebrew stayed with the tribes of the circumcision, and circumcised the foreskin of their own heart so he or she was meek and loving towards God. God would circumcise their heart so they would “naturally fulfill the first and greatest commandment”. Kinda cool.

I mentioned this movie to a relative that lives in the bay area and is a personal coach helping people with their personal development. She had read a review of the movie in the local paper that was negative. She went on my suggestion and has told me she found it interesting and that had a lot of the concepts she had learned from the Hendricks (not the TWI Hendricks!) - here a couple of links to their stuff- http://www.hendricks.com/store/ http://www.breathing.com/articles/gay-hendricks.htm She also said the presentation was interesting – going from shots of experts or talking heads to dramatization with Marlee Matlin to computer special effects to illustrate points. From what she said this movie will potentially have the greatest impact on those who have had the least exposure to the ideas of personal growth, development, healing, etc. Those who have knowledge and experience with it will probably recognize what they already know presented in a different way. I’m still planning on checking it out.

You could put it on a website and then link to it- I think that is what TheEvan did with mp3 files here http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...552&m=886104204