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Hi SG (and Todd) Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racisms do exist and they are Biblically justified. But that’s just life so get over it. It is part of the process of an ebb and flow of simple and complex personal understanding. It is part of being human and seeking a unifying order and understanding of the world we live in. Some like to tell people what to think. Many find it simpler to be told or don’t realize there is any other option. And a crazy few seek to understand it for themselves on their own terms and in their own unique way (A wink to SG and Todd) ;)--> A small number of these crazies became the prophets that were the originators of the bible and other religions. (Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc) The belief system you currently hold is the only valid belief system there is. All others are wrong and some people take this to its simple logical conclusion. Thus they feel they must force their belief system on others or kill them. (Islam o fascists are a current example) The men and women who originally spoke the words that became the books of the Bible (and other religions) were mystics- prophets and seers. Often when they uttered them these people were ridiculed and marginalized in their societies. Often it was only after their words were written down that those who followed used them to substantiate their own beliefs and impose them on others. Thus these written words became Doctrine and Law- Immutable and Eternal. I suspect that many of the original prophets would be really ....ed at how their prophesy has been used. I think that when you hear what someone says (or teaches) using the Bible as a reference and how they act upon it or anything else (even football for that matter)- This result provides much more insight and understanding about the spirit of that individual than it does about the Spirit of God.

The Navy reported that the sub grounded about 350 miles south of Guam. Here is a MAP of that area. That would place the sub grounding some where in the Caroline Islands of Micronesia. That would be a relatively shallow area since the islands run east to west. The latest is that it may have been poor charts but I have a feeling that this has effectively ended the careers of several officers on the boat- starting with the captain, Here is a BLOG blog reference to the grounding that has some info on the accident

323.4 at last

Krys-One fifth of a gallon if I remember. Galen -My dad was on the Ronquil- an old diesel boat in the early fifties- he told me the torpedoes at that time used denatured alcohol (part wood alcohol) and compressed air. He said that every once in a while some torpedo mate would filter it through bread to filter the wood alcohol out, drink it and become permanently blinded from wood alcohol poisoning

From the US Naval Historical Center website It appears that the first regulation on alcohol consumption was in 1794- 14 years later- limiting it to one-half pint of distilled spirits or one quart of beer. If I remember my history- in those days water wasn’t trusted as a drink (for good reason- dysentery, etc). The food on the ships was awful spoiled and infested with bugs. The only preservatives were salt and alcohol. They probably cooked with wine and beer. The crew probably disinfected their water by mixing in about 50-50 with booze and refilled their water by catching it on sails in rain storms. Perhaps this was also the reason for the old sea shanty- “What do you do with a drunken sailor?” Kind of hard to figure out when the whole crew is basically in the bag. The drunken sailors were probably the only ones who walked a straight line on a rolling deck.

A quick check from strongs concordance on the prepositions used in 1 Peter 1:23 from the Blue Letter Bible http://www.blueletterbible.org 1:23 Being born again, not (3756) no, not- the absolute negative- ou of (3757) out of away from- denoting origin - ek corruptible seed, but (235) neuter plural of allos – other – (from PFAL- of the same kind?- in this case the similarity is that the context is sources of seed- two different ones are being identified- does this sound right?) of incorruptible,(one word) by (1223) dia- by means of- denoting the channel of an act the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Therefore it seems to me that this verse is saying that The Word of God is not the incorruptible seed itself- it is the means or channel of implanting the incorruptible seed.

Ex- if you are looking for advice here are a couple of points that I have heard in the past. LCD flat screens are nice and you can obviously use them for games but I have heard in the past that they aren't as "fast" as CRT screens. That may no longer be true and it may not matter for online gaming but I suspect it still does. As far as wireless- I use it but remember the every wall between the computer and the router will slow down the connection. If you want your gaming computer to have the best possible connection- It should be wire connected to the router and cable modem. Your existing computer should be wireless. I use slow dsl so I don't notice a problem with my old 10mbs wireless. The new 100mbs wireless should work fine for you even with the gaming computer wirelesly conneced from the router. Enjoy your new toy!

I think this domain name is part of the spoils of their latest lawsuit settlement

Probably- Analytic and amiable more than the others.

One way I have heard it stated is that Republicans and conservatives tend to view individual choice, personal responsibility, and the actions of individuals as the key detriment to success, prosperity etc. “Any one can succeed if they try hard enough”- “The poor are poor because of the choices they have made” Thus they seem hard hearted and stern- there are no excuses. Republicans tend to focus on the individual. On the other hand Democrats and liberals tend to see individual success as a function of family and society systems that either help or hinder the individual’s success. They think success is dependant upon advantages; failure is a result of obstacles or disadvantages. Thus they seek to give everyone a “level playing field” even if it means removing the advantages to some so all may face the same disadvantages. There are reasons for failure and poverty. Democrats tend to focus on groups. As with most people and groups both democrats and republicans believe that theirs is the only true and correct set of beliefs, all others are wrong- and thus evil- those who hold wrong beliefs are worthy of only hate and fear. Individual success is influenced by both. Individual choices affect society and society affects individual choices. Both are partly right, by ignoring the other groups core belief- because it is THEIRS not OURS both are wrong.

I wondered what happened- tx raf

I use Endust for electronics-Claims to be anti-static cleaning and dusting spray- It think I got it at a supermarket- I use it on my laptop lcd screen and regular screens with a paper towel.

As to how many are actually on staff- Jimextwi probably knows. When I was there in 1985, I think there were about 25 on staff. They could probably keep it going with as few as 12.

WW- Here is were you can get you diploma for only $160 they expose and use legal loop holes so this is a Genuine Degree! They will even provide transcripts so you can prove you qualify! (VP eat your heart out) 100%legal-100% Approval- NO Coursework! http://www.instantdegrees.com/mainframepage.html Perhaps you can pass the hat at the weenie roast and get others to pay for it just VP did! If I make it I'll donate my pocket change.

Cynic- I realize I am probably not as intelligent or as well educated in you. Perhaps this is why I am baffled by your post. Do you feel that I am dismissing you? Or that I am dismissing your comments? Or Sirguessalot? I was trying to point out in my last post that it could be argued that Jesus Christ was a new age guru just as well as he could argued to be a cynic sage. To me this means both positions are valid and yet they appear to be antagonistic. I enjoy such apparent contradictions. As to your comments about Sirguess, I can understand why you said them because his posts could be interpreted to have that connotation. To me he views and tries to describe universal truths in a different and unique way that is once again valid but appears antagonistic to what we have been taught in twi. He makes me think as you do, and I enjoy and need the exercise. Finally cynic I wonder if you are actually psychic- I recently bought three pairs of brown shoes and I love pickles – were you actually telling me I was dismissed?

When I was in rez in 85 I was unaware of any special books printed but you may be refering to the teaching that were givin to the waycorps every wed night- those were considered "priveledged information" not to be disseminated out side the WC

Sirguess- Thst angels site had a chart that tied the names of archangles to chakras(points within the body- in yoga?), which kinda fits with your suggestion that angels may be part of our being.

It is also interesting that Jesus could also be considered a “new age sage”. He spoke of himself as a son of God, that the law could be fulfilled and surpassed by love, a baptism of fire and the Holy Spirit. A cynic could describe these as mystical upchuckings of a preening newager who thought he was a superior soul who has passed to a higher state of being. Although he did not make an explicit statement to have attained a transcending state of being, existence and/or consciousness, a cynic could say he pontificated as if some such thing can be actualized and that Jesus could have significant knowledge of it. Interestingly enough while Jesus had not achieved this transcendental state when he spoke of these things he did soon after. I think his resurrection with his new body and eternal life more than qualifies. He then went on to teach his disciples to breathe in to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and charged them to teach others also so all who wished could follow. Sounds like new age in a nutshell to me.

This is from the site I mentioned earlier- I thought it was interesting. http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/ Lucifer(Light Giver) Erroneously equated with the fallen angel Satan due to a misreading of Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning," an apostrophe which applied to Nebuchadnezzer, king of Babylon. It should be pointed out that the authors of the book of the old testament knew nothing of fallen or evil angels, and do not mention them, although, at times, as in Job4:18, the Lord "put no trust" in his angels and "charged them with folly," which would indicate that angels were not all that they should be. The name Lucifer was applied to Satan by St. Jerome and other Church Fathers. Abigail- you might enjoy this site if you haven't used it already. It has a lot of the info you posted and more

Thanks Cynic- I figured you’d realize I suffer from chronic cranial rectosis. I just expected a more erudite and penetrating reply

Some thoughts of mine on angels- I remember being taught that there are three Archangels Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer/Satan Some thing to think about is this verse as example of dividing a group into three parts (thirds) 2Sa 18:2 And David sent forth a third part of the people under the hand of Joab, and a third part under the hand of Abishai the son of Zeruiah, Joab's brother, and a third part under the hand of Ittai the Gittite. And the king said unto the people, I will surely go forth with you myself also. It does say that each part has the same number of people only that they were divided into groups- could this be true with the angels also? An example of angels apparently remaining obedient to God Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? A Roman legion of that time contained from 3,000 to 5,000 combatants so this is 36,000 to 60,00 angels- It is also interesting to note that there were 4 legions stationed in Syria (the Holy Land) and there were probably only 23 legions in the entire Roman Empire. Therefore 12 legions of Angels would have been enough to liberate Israel and stand against the entire might of Rome. Another example of apparently obedient angels: Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; This is over 100 million spirit beings mentioned. This is the only verse I could find in a quick search that mentioned the downfall It does net say that the number was equal to one third of the total Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Blue leter bible is a website that incorporates strongs and other resources with a searchable Bible http://www.blueletterbible.org/ This is an interesting site on Angels http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/info.html

Roy- Your walk in love is heart warming Hi Cynic and Todd I enjoy both of your posting throughout GSC for different reasons. In this thread it almost like looking at light and dark one seems to celebrate the integration of body and the other the isolation of body from mind, perhaps a form of disintegration? I also find peoples choices of screen names and avatars very apt representations of their essences. And in both your cases they seem to be particularly apt. Out of curiosity (in the hopes of understanding Cynics posts better) I looked up the definition of cynic and this is part of what I found here http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cynic 1. A person who believes all people are motivated by selfishness. 2. A person whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative. 3. Cynic A member of a sect of ancient Greek philosophers who believed virtue to be the only good and self-control to be the only means of achieving virtue. adj. 1. Cynical. 2. Cynic Of or relating to the Cynics or their beliefs. [Latin cynicus, Cynic philosopher, from Greek kunikos, from kuon, kun-, dog. See kwon- in Indo-European Roots.] Word History: A cynic may be pardoned for thinking that this is a dog's life. The Greek word kunikos, from which cynic comes, was originally an adjective meaning “doglike,” from kuon, “dog.” The word was probably applied to the Cynic philosophers because of the nickname kuon given to Diogenes of Sinope, the prototypical Cynic. He is reported to have been seen barking in public, urinating on the leg of a table, and masturbating on the street. The first use of the word recorded in English, in a work published from 1547 to 1564, is in the plural for members of this philosophical sect. In 1596 we find the first instance of cynic meaning “faultfinder,” a sense that was to develop into our modern sense. The meaning “faultfinder” came naturally from the behavior of countless Cynics who in their pursuit of virtue pointed out the flaws in others. Such faultfinding could lead quite naturally to the belief associated with cynics of today that selfishness determines human behavior. What I find fascinating is that philosophers who put such a high value on virtue through self control were famous (if not notorious) for acting with such an apparent lack of self control. I think it is relevant to your topic Todd because it is an interesting example of mind/body disconnect? Or is it actually an example of loving and integrating your deepest fear into your self and celebrating it? Any thoughts on this Cynic? Todd? Cynic- Also why is there an association in your mind between what Todd has posted and the Spanish Inquisition and Torquemada? Does his exercise sound like torture to you? Or does his writing remind you of Torquemada's?

A LA - perhaps they thought this was the "FIEND tracker forum" :)-->

HJ- Let me add some more of my own thoughts in response to yours As one who has been seeking healing and growth for myself and occasionally giving feedback to friends I tend to agree that it shouldn’t be that difficult to repair. But I find that in fact for most people it is VERY difficult to repair. I think there are two primary reasons for this. The first is that many people do not seek out the help they need from professionals and friends. The second is that even when they do seek help and resources to change- they often don’t actually do what it is going to take to change or perhaps more accurately integrate the experiences, emotions etc. that they are avoiding into their lives in a balanced manner. Thus at best their growth and healing is delayed if not stifled completely. The big problem with confronting abusers and the thing that makes them so scary is that they do not recognize that their actions are abusive. They cannot see that they have deeper issues and will not allow themselves to be confronted with their existence. (The whole reason they are abusive is to avoid them) A really good book about the extreme types of these people is: The People of the Lie - by M. Scott Peck One of Pecks points is that the mental health professional almost never get to help these people because they do not have a clue that they need help. Usually it is their children that do, and that the only thing that mental health professionals can do is try to help the victims and thus detect the existence of the abusers.

A LA procaine- Is this the tread you meant? http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc...=9676051151&p=1