I guess you don't see any similarity between the devil telling Jesus it's okay to jump off the Temple because an angel will catch you and TWI telling people God's going to protect you as you hitch to Tinney, New Mexico...Ever heard any of the horror stories of people [especially women] that went L.E.A.D.? Who's idea was that - to have people hitch to Tinney? Is that not putting people in harm's way?
The corps believed that God would protect from harm, so no. I don't think twi lied to folks when they claimed that God would protect them, because the bible itself claims that. We believed the bible.
Now when bad happens, who do you blame, if anyone/anything?
I blame the actual perpetrator, if any. On a spiritual level, I blame the devil.
What if, on a twi assignment, you sustain injuries in a natural disaster? Like a hurricane or tornado. Do you blame twi then too, for "putting you in harm's way"?
What if you weren't hitchhiking but driving a truck, and fall asleep at the wheel? Do you blame twi for putting you in harm's way?
Maybe you do. I do not.
Any of these things are possibilities in this world. Harm happens, with or without twi.
Waysider I was going to make an attempt to answer some of your questions but I don't think you want answers from me, it looks to me like you already have it all figured out.
I wonder...did you ever visit one of the Corps locations? Ever audit a class? Ever visit a person you were sponsoring?
I know that as a sponsor you were sent mail every month - or at least nearly every month. What you don't seem to realize is that a person writing while in residence would NEVER have sent you anything less than a "I'm so blessed to be here...It's hard, but worth it.....Today we....God bless you!" letter.
But - there were some real times of deep depression. I remember my first year in residence - I spent most of the time condemning myself because I couldn't keep up with the running program.
Eventually, I got shin splints - but I had to keep running - had to get all of those aerobic points.
I went to "Third-Aid" they just told me to keep running through the pain - that God would heal me.(LOTS and LOTS of condemnation for not being healed - where was my believing??)
AND you couldn't get a waver from running without a written note from third aid.
Finally, at the block change, a man familiar with sports injuries was put in third aid. I had gotten to the point that I couldn't walk down the stairs without my knees buckling - had to go down backwards. The room we had all our classes in was UPSTAIRS and I had to be there twice a day - this in addition to going up and down stairs to do my "job" - I think I was still in alterations in the basement of Kipp Hall - more stirs to go down - sigh.
I almost had no hope when I went to Third aid - again. But this time, finally, the man, said, "Hey wait a minute - let me check. You have sciatica that came as a result of the shin splints. You are forbidden to run for at least 8 weeks!"
Eight weeks later I was able to run and I more than made up for those points I didn't get earlier.
Why was this seemingly simple solution so hard to attain? Because of that dang "Just believe" doctrine.
Unfortunately, that man has passed away - so I cannot contact him and thank him - though I did at the time.
The point of this story? Only that you, YOU- really don't have any idea of what you are talking about when it comes to describing the Corps training UNLESS you went and saw it for yourself. Even then, its unlikely that you would have come away with any sense of the guilt many of us carried for not measuring up. I RAN IN PAIN! Now I know better. Now that my own child is on track and cross-country, if she's injured we tell ask her all sorts of questions and take her to a doctor if there's an injury.
Sending money to the Corps program doesn't qualify you to know what it was like to be there.
My only comfort is that I never became one of those "snooty-look-down my nose-type of corps." I met too many fine people who never went Corps for me to feel like I was more than they.
Oh and read through your posts - you're beginning to contradict yourself. That's the problem with defending an indefensible position......
Oldies has posed the question:" What if , on a twi assignment, you sustain injury in a natural disaster? Like a hurricane or tornado. Do you blame twi then too, for "putting you in harm's way? The answer to this is :If the person giving the assignment was fully aware of the dangers of this assignment then yes. If a limb coordinator demands that you prove yourself worthy of GOD'S trust by driving through the "blizzard of the century" over very rural roads when the local authorities have already declared that only the most dire circumstances will validate travel and violators will be prosecuted then it is my opinion that said LC is purposely putting you in harm's way. Of course one must factor in the reason for such an extreme demand. Would putting cardboard on a broken window pane justify the 20 mile trip? Hypothetically speaking of course.
The answer to this is :If the person giving the assignment was fully aware of the dangers of this assignment then yes.
If the person giving the assignment knew that by giving that assignment, an evil would definitely occur, then I would agree with you.
But in twi, we didn't think that way of hitchhiking. We believed God would protect us, shield us from evil. We believed in the shield of believing.
Remember this verse?:
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
We believed the bible in twi. We believed this verse.
Now if you're talking about falling off a cliff, or shooting yourself in the head, I'd say that'd be tempting God. You KNOW that something evil would happen there, as you'd be breaking the natural laws like gravity and g-force.
I don't know if hitchhiking could honestly be put in that category. We certainly didn't in twi.
Oh but some of us did! And even if we didn't - that doesn't mean that GOD was onboard with the program.
And - sorry but you're evading the main point here. Believing has nothing to do with this BECAUSE we WERE tempting God.
Remember how God tells YOU not someone else...well, no matter what, even if God came to us and audibly told us not to hitch - we would have had to go. That still small voice didn't have a chance over lcm's big mouth.
Sooooo - maybe the Corps just didn't recognize Satan! Aha!
BINGO!!!! ding ding ding!!!! Dooj, I think you that you hit the nail right on the head!
Wolf in sheeps clothing? False prophet anybody? Ya know...ya gotta resemble the genuine very closely in order to fool anybody...in vain is there snare set in sight of the bird...etc
Guess that is why we are instructed biblically to examine the fruit....hmmm in addition to the fear and sheer misery....becoming physically disabled, rape, and even death....just a few of the consequences mentioned on this hread recieved for adhering to twi`s orders.
Doesn`t sound like a Godly endeavor to me <_<
Genuine ministies do not do this to people, genuine Christian leaders do not flagrantly disregard the lives and safety of those entrusted to their care, genuine brothers in Christ would simply never behave towards their fellow Christians.
Well Doojable, I don't believe hitchhiking was tempting God so I guess we'll have to disagree on this point.
What if it were driving? Driving can be very dangerous! Do you know that in the U.S., perhaps 30-40,000 deaths per year? Maybe twi should have banned driving cause it was putting folks in harms way?
Again, once the first or maybe second incident of harm happened - SOMEONE in authority should have seen the potential for harm and seen that sending out sometimes hundreds of Corps at a time to hitch was a bad idea! It's not like it was a sometimes thing - it was a policy.
I think that as such, to admit that it was dangerous would have to admit some form of responsibility - and that wasn't about to happen.
As I have followed this thread I have recalled the lyrics to a song from an era long past. They go something like this: " A hypocrite in all his might, so wrong in that he thinks he's right. Still he hears not. still he sees not . Will he?"
Tom, I think he posts to get attention and because he's so miserable he can't stand to see others with answers and having the truly "more abundant life" WITHOUT TWI that we were promised BY TWI. ;)
I also pity him because he, of all people, must be most miserable. He tries so hard to justify the things of TWI and the abuses, maybe he was actually very involved with and responsible FOR those abuses and to acknowledge those things makes him responsible FOR them and that would mean that he's less than perfect - so it's easier to blame the rest of us for NOT being perfect like him than to face up to things that are wrong and, God forbid, to apologize for being imperfect and making mistakes.
To hear OM tell it, TWI NEVER did anything wrong and HE never did anything wrong. If we are hurt, in pain, remoseful, confused, in ill health, have terrible, awful scars, it's all our fault for not being perfect like he and TWI.
I hope people get to read this before it gets censored and deleted. :)
"The corps believed that God would protect from harm, so no. I don't think twi lied to folks when they claimed that God would protect them, because the bible itself claims that. We believed the bible."
T-Bone
OldiesMan, please show me that in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it promise God will protect you – even when you make stupid decisions – or follow the stupid instructions of your spiritual leader? Proverbs 27:12 "The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it." [NIV]…I don't see anything about using the magic power of believing in that verse. The smart person in that verse is the one who looks ahead, identifies risks/dangers and takes appropriate action to avoid them…
…Who was the dumb*$$ that came up with the idea to test God - - to tempt God - - to make God protect you by hitching to a leadership training program? What was the point of having people hitch? "Oh – to put people in a situation where they have to believe God," is the typical TWI reasoning, "You know - to walk on water you've got to get out of the boat." Hmmmmmmmm…Hitchhiking is like walking on water – eh? I think anybody can hitch – just takes a little nerve. I know of only two people who walked on water – Jesus and Peter who asked permission of Jesus…But I guess this adventure of hitchhiking is an easy way for TWI to claim the Way Corps are actually manipulating reality by the non-existent power of believing. Wow, thank you TWI for training me to be a great spiritual leader by bumming rides across the country and mooching off people – oh wait – that is good training for a TWI leadership position.
OldiesMan
"Now when bad happens, who do you blame, if anyone/anything?
I blame the actual perpetrator, if any. On a spiritual level, I blame the devil."
T-Bone
I'm keeping this in context with my contention that TWI promoted followers to tempt God – specifically in directing them to hitchhike to Tinney. If some great evil befell a person en route – I too would blame the actual perpetrator – but now – now – after leaving TWI 20 years ago – no longer thinking I could alter reality to my liking [and various other La-La-Land lines of reasoning] – I think TWI shares some of the culpability for the double whammy of encouraging people to do something potentially dangerous and yet giving them a false sense of security [rendering them ill-equipped and unprepared].
Folks who hitchhiked, freely availed themselves to hitchhike, dangerous or not.
TWI didn't make people hitchhike. TWI didn't force people to go corps.
I haven't read all the way through this thread yet. I was Corps; I hitchhiked all over the country and I was one of the ones who had fun doing it. The subject here is foolhardy behaviour and putting people (kids) in harms way for unreasonable purposes.
"Freely avail" is a misnomer. And maybe someone has already addressed that term here. It is a misnomer still today in TWI. No one put a gun to our heads for us to do the things we did.....but emotional abuse and manipulation were/are skillfully used in TWI.
From the book The Emotionally Abusive Relationship (I am changing some of the words, like from partner to party):
"Emotional blackmail is one of the most powerful forms of manipulation. It occurs when one party...coerces the other into doing what it wants by playing on the other's fear, guilt, or compassion. (sound familiar?)
The following are warning signs that you are being emotionally blackmailed:
- The party asks you to choose beween something you want to do or the party.
- The party tries to make you feel like you are selfish or a bad person if you do something the party doesn't want you to do.
- The party asks you to give up something or someone as a way of proving your love.
- The party threatens to leave you if you don't change. "
Other types of emotional abuse (listed in this book) used by TWI are:
" -Domination (ordering another around, monitoring time and activities, restricting resources and social activities, isolating from family and friends, interfering with opportunities, etc.)
Thanks Pipes, I think that sums up EXATLY why we did foolish things.
oldies has tried to focus this thread on hitchhiking good or bad....That isn`t the point, we were forced to do that which was unwise in order to be in good standing with God.
All of those things forms of manipulation that you listed were used. The bad part is that the one and only God almighty was used as the threat...I mean if you blew it spiritually and God couldn`t spit in your direction, or you were no longer under his umbrella of protection, if he got mad at you and decided to kill you for breaking your vow like he did with annanias n saphira....it wasn`t like you could go out and get ANOTHER God to love and protect you :(
I wonder how HE feels about being the weapon utilized to force people into unsafe behavior. I wonder if he felt as bad as we did when we tearfully submitted to the orders of twi, some times heart broken. sometimes scared, some times just sick at heart at what we felt we had to do in order to prove our love to him.
Then when things went bad we turned to him and asked why? We were just trying to serve you :(
So... if you totally ignored the warning the guy gave you and continued to go back again and again...WHAT? You didn't ignore his warning though did you? (TWI did)
I don't see that as the same Tom.
I have specific knowledge that that guy doesn't want me to knock on HIS door, so I will not knock on HIS door ever again.
But, should I stop knocking on all doors because one man threatened me? "No."
I could, but that would mean I'd be allowing one guy to direct my actions and my life in a negative way.
When TWI had knowledge that by doing a specific activity, at a specific time, at a specific place, a possible evil would occur, then yeah, I'd say they bear some responsibility. (example, Rosalie sending Fern off to the motel...) (there are many others, I just noted that one)
That was specific, and wrong.
But hitchhiking is different.
Hey look at driving. There are at least some 30,000 U.S. deaths due to driving every year. It's dangerous.
So when twi asks someone to drive a car (a dangerous activity that twi knows causes 30,000 U.S. deaths per year) and they crash, it's twi's fault for not banning that activity?
Not to mention the fact that people themselves know that driving can be dangerous, yet they do it anyway...
I haven't read all the way through this thread yet. I was Corps; I hitchhiked all over the country and I was one of the ones who had fun doing it.
Bagpipes, praise God you had fun ... I do think lots of folks found it quite challenging, which may have been the idea all along. That's what I thought anyway... to push the envelope and expand lifes experiences and challenges.
If the person giving the assignment knew that by giving that assignment, an evil would definitely occur, then I would agree with you.
But in twi, we didn't think that way of hitchhiking. We believed God would protect us, shield us from evil. We believed in the shield of believing.
Supposing that the people who made the initial decision to REQUIRE hitchhiking were not
aware of the dangers OF hitchhiking, that was a bad decision based on insufficient information.
They were unfit to lead, since they made decisions that others were required to follow
that placed them in risk.
Once that decision was put into action, and there were victims (people were killed and raped),
"you would have to be stupider than stupid" (to use vpw's saying)
to NOT expect it to happen AGAIN.
At that point (if not much sooner), and proper leader of ANY kind would have said
"we're exposing our people to unnecessary risk of death and rape.
Let's replace this with something that does NOT do that."
At that point, however, twi's people (remember-individual people made decisions,
there wasn't a machine in a corner, an anonymous "twi" deciding things)
either CHOSE TO IGNORE PLACING OTHERS IN DANGER,
or DECIDED IT WAS APPROPRIATE TO DO SO.
Therefore,
the person giving the assignment either didn't know about the danger-
which makes them underinformed to be making such decisions once the victims
had been found;
which makes them unfit to lead,
or the person giving the assignment knew about the danger that an evil would occur,
which even OM admits is wrong,
and this makes them unfit to lead.
What the participants in the program thought at the time is a NON-ISSUE.
The participants trusted that those administering the program were doing so in a
responsible fashion.
Exposing participants INTENTIONALLY to danger of death or rape,
or remaining unaware that there WAS such a danger to a program-
that is NOT administering a program in a responsible fashion.
It was wrong of them, and would have left them open to lawsuits if anyone HAD
sued.
Ever wonder why we never hear of OTHER programs requiring hitchhiking?
That's because people running REAL programs can look over this option and say
"That's f*ing stupid. We're not going to do that to our people-we LIKE them."
What was the intent of the participants? NON-ISSUE.
Was requiring hitchhiking foolhardy? Only a fool can say otherwise at this point.
YES IT WAS FOOLHARDY.
And vpw himself-once the victims were victimized-
insisted PERSONALLY that this would remain a REQUIREMENT.
Did the leadership think the holy force-field would protect the participants?
If they started by deciding to "tempt God", that was foolish.
Once the victims came forth-which proved it DIDN'T work that way-
it was criminally careless to maintain that concept.
It was criminally poor stewardship.
It was considering individual Christians DISPOSABLE.
Which was more important-the doctrine and practices,
or the LIVES OF THE CHRISTIANS?
As we saw from vpw's decisions,
the doctrines and practices were MUCH more important than the LIVES
of the Christians. They were not really 'people' so much as 'assets.'
And the money expended to transport participants to LEAD was a more
valued asset than the safety of the people.
Tom, I think he posts to get attention and because he's so miserable he can't stand to see others with answers and having the truly "more abundant life" WITHOUT TWI that we were promised BY TWI. ;)
I also pity him because he, of all people, must be most miserable. He tries so hard to justify the things of TWI and the abuses, maybe he was actually very involved with and responsible FOR those abuses and to acknowledge those things makes him responsible FOR them and that would mean that he's less than perfect - so it's easier to blame the rest of us for NOT being perfect like him than to face up to things that are wrong and, God forbid, to apologize for being imperfect and making mistakes.
To hear OM tell it, TWI NEVER did anything wrong and HE never did anything wrong. If we are hurt, in pain, remorseful, confused, in ill health, have terrible, awful scars, it's all our fault for not being perfect like he and TWI.
I hope people get to read this before it gets censored and deleted. :)
Of course, we're only taking his OWN word that he was never involved and never saw ANYTHING.
OldiesMan
"The corps believed that God would protect from harm, so no. I don't think twi lied to folks when they claimed that God would protect them, because the bible itself claims that. We believed the bible."
T-Bone
OldiesMan, please show me that in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it promise God will protect you – even when you make stupid decisions – or follow the stupid instructions of your spiritual leader? Proverbs 27:12 "The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it." [NIV]…I don't see anything about using the magic power of believing in that verse. The smart person in that verse is the one who looks ahead, identifies risks/dangers and takes appropriate action to avoid them…
…Who was the dumb*$$ that came up with the idea to test God - - to tempt God - - to make God protect you by hitching to a leadership training program? What was the point of having people hitch? "Oh – to put people in a situation where they have to believe God," is the typical TWI reasoning, "You know - to walk on water you've got to get out of the boat." Hmmmmmmmm…Hitchhiking is like walking on water – eh? I think anybody can hitch – just takes a little nerve. I know of only two people who walked on water – Jesus and Peter who asked permission of Jesus…But I guess this adventure of hitchhiking is an easy way for TWI to claim the Way Corps are actually manipulating reality by the non-existent power of believing. Wow, thank you TWI for training me to be a great spiritual leader by bumming rides across the country and mooching off people – oh wait – that is good training for a TWI leadership position.
OldiesMan
"Now when bad happens, who do you blame, if anyone/anything?
I blame the actual perpetrator, if any. On a spiritual level, I blame the devil."
T-Bone
I'm keeping this in context with my contention that TWI promoted followers to tempt God – specifically in directing them to hitchhike to Tinney. If some great evil befell a person en route – I too would blame the actual perpetrator – but now – now – after leaving TWI 20 years ago – no longer thinking I could alter reality to my liking [and various other La-La-Land lines of reasoning] – I think TWI shares some of the culpability for the double whammy of encouraging people to do something potentially dangerous and yet giving them a false sense of security [rendering them ill-equipped and unprepared].
I haven't read all the way through this thread yet. I was Corps; I hitchhiked all over the country and I was one of the ones who had fun doing it. The subject here is foolhardy behaviour and putting people (kids) in harms way for unreasonable purposes.
"Freely avail" is a misnomer. And maybe someone has already addressed that term here. It is a misnomer still today in TWI. No one put a gun to our heads for us to do the things we did.....but emotional abuse and manipulation were/are skillfully used in TWI.
From the book The Emotionally Abusive Relationship (I am changing some of the words, like from partner to party):
"Emotional blackmail is one of the most powerful forms of manipulation. It occurs when one party...coerces the other into doing what it wants by playing on the other's fear, guilt, or compassion. (sound familiar?)
The following are warning signs that you are being emotionally blackmailed:
- The party asks you to choose beween something you want to do or the party.
- The party tries to make you feel like you are selfish or a bad person if you do something the party doesn't want you to do.
- The party asks you to give up something or someone as a way of proving your love.
- The party threatens to leave you if you don't change. "
Other types of emotional abuse (listed in this book) used by TWI are:
" -Domination (ordering another around, monitoring time and activities, restricting resources and social activities, isolating from family and friends, interfering with opportunities, etc.)
- Abusive expectations (unreasonable demands, the party can never be pleased because there is always something more the other could have done)
- Unpredictable responses (inconsistent responses to the same behaviour)
-Character assassination (blowing someone's mistakes out of proportion, humiliating, criticizing, making fun of someone in front of others, etc.)
-Gaslighting (continually denying that certain events occurred or statements made, insinuating that the other is exagerrating or lying)
-Sexual Harassment (unwelcome sexual advances or any physicl or verbal conduct of a sexual nature that is uninvited and unwelcome)"
This was the force applied. It is not physical force; it can be far more treacherous...because it is "invisible."
Hm. The description of Gaslighting certainly sounds familiar, like I've been hearing
this recently...
OM,
Again, once the first or maybe second incident of harm happened - SOMEONE in authority should have seen the potential for harm and seen that sending out sometimes hundreds of Corps at a time to hitch was a bad idea! It's not like it was a sometimes thing - it was a policy.
I think that as such, to admit that it was dangerous would have to admit some form of responsibility - and that wasn't about to happen.
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If we're not supposed to use our "five senses", why did God give them to us?
oldiesman
The corps believed that God would protect from harm, so no. I don't think twi lied to folks when they claimed that God would protect them, because the bible itself claims that. We believed the bible.
Now when bad happens, who do you blame, if anyone/anything?
I blame the actual perpetrator, if any. On a spiritual level, I blame the devil.
What if, on a twi assignment, you sustain injuries in a natural disaster? Like a hurricane or tornado. Do you blame twi then too, for "putting you in harm's way"?
What if you weren't hitchhiking but driving a truck, and fall asleep at the wheel? Do you blame twi for putting you in harm's way?
Maybe you do. I do not.
Any of these things are possibilities in this world. Harm happens, with or without twi.
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oldiesman
Waysider I was going to make an attempt to answer some of your questions but I don't think you want answers from me, it looks to me like you already have it all figured out.
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doojable
OM,
I wonder...did you ever visit one of the Corps locations? Ever audit a class? Ever visit a person you were sponsoring?
I know that as a sponsor you were sent mail every month - or at least nearly every month. What you don't seem to realize is that a person writing while in residence would NEVER have sent you anything less than a "I'm so blessed to be here...It's hard, but worth it.....Today we....God bless you!" letter.
But - there were some real times of deep depression. I remember my first year in residence - I spent most of the time condemning myself because I couldn't keep up with the running program.
Eventually, I got shin splints - but I had to keep running - had to get all of those aerobic points.
I went to "Third-Aid" they just told me to keep running through the pain - that God would heal me.(LOTS and LOTS of condemnation for not being healed - where was my believing??)
AND you couldn't get a waver from running without a written note from third aid.
Finally, at the block change, a man familiar with sports injuries was put in third aid. I had gotten to the point that I couldn't walk down the stairs without my knees buckling - had to go down backwards. The room we had all our classes in was UPSTAIRS and I had to be there twice a day - this in addition to going up and down stairs to do my "job" - I think I was still in alterations in the basement of Kipp Hall - more stirs to go down - sigh.
I almost had no hope when I went to Third aid - again. But this time, finally, the man, said, "Hey wait a minute - let me check. You have sciatica that came as a result of the shin splints. You are forbidden to run for at least 8 weeks!"
Eight weeks later I was able to run and I more than made up for those points I didn't get earlier.
Why was this seemingly simple solution so hard to attain? Because of that dang "Just believe" doctrine.
Unfortunately, that man has passed away - so I cannot contact him and thank him - though I did at the time.
The point of this story? Only that you, YOU- really don't have any idea of what you are talking about when it comes to describing the Corps training UNLESS you went and saw it for yourself. Even then, its unlikely that you would have come away with any sense of the guilt many of us carried for not measuring up. I RAN IN PAIN! Now I know better. Now that my own child is on track and cross-country, if she's injured we tell ask her all sorts of questions and take her to a doctor if there's an injury.
Sending money to the Corps program doesn't qualify you to know what it was like to be there.
My only comfort is that I never became one of those "snooty-look-down my nose-type of corps." I met too many fine people who never went Corps for me to feel like I was more than they.
Oh and read through your posts - you're beginning to contradict yourself. That's the problem with defending an indefensible position......
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oldiesman
Dooj, I like you. Feel free to PM me if you want.
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doojable
OMG!!!!
Devil to Jesus - "Go ahead and Jump - the angels will catch you!"
Jesus to Devil - "UHHHH no! You don't temp the Lord."
vpw and lcm to corps - "Go ahead and hitch - God will protect you."
Corps to vpw and lcm - "Duhhhhh OK! We'll just believe!"
So are you saying that Jesus' believing was off because he didn't believe that God would protect him?
AND... if he had jumped and gotten hurt, maimed, killed - all his fault for listening to Satan. - For not recognizing Satan for what he really was.
Hmmmmm - be careful how you answer this one....
Sooooo - maybe the Corps just didn't recognize Satan! Aha!
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waysider
Oldies has posed the question:" What if , on a twi assignment, you sustain injury in a natural disaster? Like a hurricane or tornado. Do you blame twi then too, for "putting you in harm's way? The answer to this is :If the person giving the assignment was fully aware of the dangers of this assignment then yes. If a limb coordinator demands that you prove yourself worthy of GOD'S trust by driving through the "blizzard of the century" over very rural roads when the local authorities have already declared that only the most dire circumstances will validate travel and violators will be prosecuted then it is my opinion that said LC is purposely putting you in harm's way. Of course one must factor in the reason for such an extreme demand. Would putting cardboard on a broken window pane justify the 20 mile trip? Hypothetically speaking of course.
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oldiesman
If you're talking about falling off a cliff, Jesus was right not tempting God.
I don't know if hitchhiking could honestly be put in that category. We certainly didn't in twi.
But Jesus did believe in believing. You know the drill.. here are a couple of verses:
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oldiesman
If the person giving the assignment knew that by giving that assignment, an evil would definitely occur, then I would agree with you.
But in twi, we didn't think that way of hitchhiking. We believed God would protect us, shield us from evil. We believed in the shield of believing.
Remember this verse?:
We believed the bible in twi. We believed this verse.
Now if you're talking about falling off a cliff, or shooting yourself in the head, I'd say that'd be tempting God. You KNOW that something evil would happen there, as you'd be breaking the natural laws like gravity and g-force.
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doojable
Oh but some of us did! And even if we didn't - that doesn't mean that GOD was onboard with the program.
And - sorry but you're evading the main point here. Believing has nothing to do with this BECAUSE we WERE tempting God.
Remember how God tells YOU not someone else...well, no matter what, even if God came to us and audibly told us not to hitch - we would have had to go. That still small voice didn't have a chance over lcm's big mouth.
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rascal
BINGO!!!! ding ding ding!!!! Dooj, I think you that you hit the nail right on the head!
Wolf in sheeps clothing? False prophet anybody? Ya know...ya gotta resemble the genuine very closely in order to fool anybody...in vain is there snare set in sight of the bird...etc
Guess that is why we are instructed biblically to examine the fruit....hmmm in addition to the fear and sheer misery....becoming physically disabled, rape, and even death....just a few of the consequences mentioned on this hread recieved for adhering to twi`s orders.
Doesn`t sound like a Godly endeavor to me <_<
Genuine ministies do not do this to people, genuine Christian leaders do not flagrantly disregard the lives and safety of those entrusted to their care, genuine brothers in Christ would simply never behave towards their fellow Christians.
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oldiesman
Well Doojable, I don't believe hitchhiking was tempting God so I guess we'll have to disagree on this point.
What if it were driving? Driving can be very dangerous! Do you know that in the U.S., perhaps 30-40,000 deaths per year? Maybe twi should have banned driving cause it was putting folks in harms way?
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doojable
OM,
Again, once the first or maybe second incident of harm happened - SOMEONE in authority should have seen the potential for harm and seen that sending out sometimes hundreds of Corps at a time to hitch was a bad idea! It's not like it was a sometimes thing - it was a policy.
I think that as such, to admit that it was dangerous would have to admit some form of responsibility - and that wasn't about to happen.
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waysider
As I have followed this thread I have recalled the lyrics to a song from an era long past. They go something like this: " A hypocrite in all his might, so wrong in that he thinks he's right. Still he hears not. still he sees not . Will he?"
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Sunnyfla
:blink:
Not to change the subject on the hitchhiking issue..... but
How many of you remember or was a part of the" Rodeo Days" in the Corps.?
They stopped it a year before I went in.
And just think... I wanted to dress up like a clown and distract a BULL :blink:
They said someone got seriously hurt and they stopped the program.
Now tell me.. What in Sam's H#ll does that have anything to do with our training to be leaders???
OHHHH.... I guess we had to believe God not to get hurt by jumping in front of bulls, and riding them as well :unsure:
Just a thought.
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Sunnyfla
I just remembered this..
My old roommate who was in the 18th Corps. showed me a video of the rodeo with one the corps. getting flipped
through the air and she was the clown trying to distract the bull away from him. :blink:
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Tom Strange
So... if you totally ignored the warning the guy gave you and continued to go back again and again...
WHAT? You didn't ignore his warning though did you? (TWI did)
The rest of your senseless drivel I won't waste my time with...
Folks, maybe someday, sometime OM will come clean as to why he posts from the position he posts... allow folks to see his real motive...
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Belle
Tom, I think he posts to get attention and because he's so miserable he can't stand to see others with answers and having the truly "more abundant life" WITHOUT TWI that we were promised BY TWI. ;)
I also pity him because he, of all people, must be most miserable. He tries so hard to justify the things of TWI and the abuses, maybe he was actually very involved with and responsible FOR those abuses and to acknowledge those things makes him responsible FOR them and that would mean that he's less than perfect - so it's easier to blame the rest of us for NOT being perfect like him than to face up to things that are wrong and, God forbid, to apologize for being imperfect and making mistakes.
To hear OM tell it, TWI NEVER did anything wrong and HE never did anything wrong. If we are hurt, in pain, remoseful, confused, in ill health, have terrible, awful scars, it's all our fault for not being perfect like he and TWI.
I hope people get to read this before it gets censored and deleted. :)
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T-Bone
OldiesMan
"The corps believed that God would protect from harm, so no. I don't think twi lied to folks when they claimed that God would protect them, because the bible itself claims that. We believed the bible."
T-Bone
OldiesMan, please show me that in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it promise God will protect you – even when you make stupid decisions – or follow the stupid instructions of your spiritual leader? Proverbs 27:12 "The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it." [NIV]…I don't see anything about using the magic power of believing in that verse. The smart person in that verse is the one who looks ahead, identifies risks/dangers and takes appropriate action to avoid them…
…Who was the dumb*$$ that came up with the idea to test God - - to tempt God - - to make God protect you by hitching to a leadership training program? What was the point of having people hitch? "Oh – to put people in a situation where they have to believe God," is the typical TWI reasoning, "You know - to walk on water you've got to get out of the boat." Hmmmmmmmm…Hitchhiking is like walking on water – eh? I think anybody can hitch – just takes a little nerve. I know of only two people who walked on water – Jesus and Peter who asked permission of Jesus…But I guess this adventure of hitchhiking is an easy way for TWI to claim the Way Corps are actually manipulating reality by the non-existent power of believing. Wow, thank you TWI for training me to be a great spiritual leader by bumming rides across the country and mooching off people – oh wait – that is good training for a TWI leadership position.
OldiesMan
"Now when bad happens, who do you blame, if anyone/anything?
I blame the actual perpetrator, if any. On a spiritual level, I blame the devil."
T-Bone
I'm keeping this in context with my contention that TWI promoted followers to tempt God – specifically in directing them to hitchhike to Tinney. If some great evil befell a person en route – I too would blame the actual perpetrator – but now – now – after leaving TWI 20 years ago – no longer thinking I could alter reality to my liking [and various other La-La-Land lines of reasoning] – I think TWI shares some of the culpability for the double whammy of encouraging people to do something potentially dangerous and yet giving them a false sense of security [rendering them ill-equipped and unprepared].
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I Love Bagpipes
I haven't read all the way through this thread yet. I was Corps; I hitchhiked all over the country and I was one of the ones who had fun doing it. The subject here is foolhardy behaviour and putting people (kids) in harms way for unreasonable purposes.
"Freely avail" is a misnomer. And maybe someone has already addressed that term here. It is a misnomer still today in TWI. No one put a gun to our heads for us to do the things we did.....but emotional abuse and manipulation were/are skillfully used in TWI.
From the book The Emotionally Abusive Relationship (I am changing some of the words, like from partner to party):
"Emotional blackmail is one of the most powerful forms of manipulation. It occurs when one party...coerces the other into doing what it wants by playing on the other's fear, guilt, or compassion. (sound familiar?)
The following are warning signs that you are being emotionally blackmailed:
- The party asks you to choose beween something you want to do or the party.
- The party tries to make you feel like you are selfish or a bad person if you do something the party doesn't want you to do.
- The party asks you to give up something or someone as a way of proving your love.
- The party threatens to leave you if you don't change. "
Other types of emotional abuse (listed in this book) used by TWI are:
" -Domination (ordering another around, monitoring time and activities, restricting resources and social activities, isolating from family and friends, interfering with opportunities, etc.)
- Verbal assaults (berating, belittling, critizing, humiliating, name-calling, screaming, threatening, shaming, etc.)
- Abusive expectations (unreasonable demands, the party can never be pleased because there is always something more the other could have done)
- Unpredictable responses (inconsistent responses to the same behaviour)
-Character assassination (blowing someone's mistakes out of proportion, humiliating, criticizing, making fun of someone in front of others, etc.)
-Gaslighting (continually denying that certain events occurred or statements made, insinuating that the other is exagerrating or lying)
-Sexual Harassment (unwelcome sexual advances or any physicl or verbal conduct of a sexual nature that is uninvited and unwelcome)"
This was the force applied. It is not physical force; it can be far more treacherous...because it is "invisible."
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rascal
Thanks Pipes, I think that sums up EXATLY why we did foolish things.
oldies has tried to focus this thread on hitchhiking good or bad....That isn`t the point, we were forced to do that which was unwise in order to be in good standing with God.
All of those things forms of manipulation that you listed were used. The bad part is that the one and only God almighty was used as the threat...I mean if you blew it spiritually and God couldn`t spit in your direction, or you were no longer under his umbrella of protection, if he got mad at you and decided to kill you for breaking your vow like he did with annanias n saphira....it wasn`t like you could go out and get ANOTHER God to love and protect you :(
I wonder how HE feels about being the weapon utilized to force people into unsafe behavior. I wonder if he felt as bad as we did when we tearfully submitted to the orders of twi, some times heart broken. sometimes scared, some times just sick at heart at what we felt we had to do in order to prove our love to him.
Then when things went bad we turned to him and asked why? We were just trying to serve you :(
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johniam
Aww, I was just there for the Bud Light.
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oldiesman
I don't see that as the same Tom.
I have specific knowledge that that guy doesn't want me to knock on HIS door, so I will not knock on HIS door ever again.
But, should I stop knocking on all doors because one man threatened me? "No."
I could, but that would mean I'd be allowing one guy to direct my actions and my life in a negative way.
When TWI had knowledge that by doing a specific activity, at a specific time, at a specific place, a possible evil would occur, then yeah, I'd say they bear some responsibility. (example, Rosalie sending Fern off to the motel...) (there are many others, I just noted that one)
That was specific, and wrong.
But hitchhiking is different.
Hey look at driving. There are at least some 30,000 U.S. deaths due to driving every year. It's dangerous.
So when twi asks someone to drive a car (a dangerous activity that twi knows causes 30,000 U.S. deaths per year) and they crash, it's twi's fault for not banning that activity?
Not to mention the fact that people themselves know that driving can be dangerous, yet they do it anyway...
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oldiesman
Bagpipes, praise God you had fun ... I do think lots of folks found it quite challenging, which may have been the idea all along. That's what I thought anyway... to push the envelope and expand lifes experiences and challenges.
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WordWolf
Supposing that the people who made the initial decision to REQUIRE hitchhiking were not
aware of the dangers OF hitchhiking, that was a bad decision based on insufficient information.
They were unfit to lead, since they made decisions that others were required to follow
that placed them in risk.
Once that decision was put into action, and there were victims (people were killed and raped),
"you would have to be stupider than stupid" (to use vpw's saying)
to NOT expect it to happen AGAIN.
At that point (if not much sooner), and proper leader of ANY kind would have said
"we're exposing our people to unnecessary risk of death and rape.
Let's replace this with something that does NOT do that."
At that point, however, twi's people (remember-individual people made decisions,
there wasn't a machine in a corner, an anonymous "twi" deciding things)
either CHOSE TO IGNORE PLACING OTHERS IN DANGER,
or DECIDED IT WAS APPROPRIATE TO DO SO.
Therefore,
the person giving the assignment either didn't know about the danger-
which makes them underinformed to be making such decisions once the victims
had been found;
which makes them unfit to lead,
or the person giving the assignment knew about the danger that an evil would occur,
which even OM admits is wrong,
and this makes them unfit to lead.
What the participants in the program thought at the time is a NON-ISSUE.
The participants trusted that those administering the program were doing so in a
responsible fashion.
Exposing participants INTENTIONALLY to danger of death or rape,
or remaining unaware that there WAS such a danger to a program-
that is NOT administering a program in a responsible fashion.
It was wrong of them, and would have left them open to lawsuits if anyone HAD
sued.
Ever wonder why we never hear of OTHER programs requiring hitchhiking?
That's because people running REAL programs can look over this option and say
"That's f*ing stupid. We're not going to do that to our people-we LIKE them."
What was the intent of the participants? NON-ISSUE.
Was requiring hitchhiking foolhardy? Only a fool can say otherwise at this point.
YES IT WAS FOOLHARDY.
And vpw himself-once the victims were victimized-
insisted PERSONALLY that this would remain a REQUIREMENT.
Did the leadership think the holy force-field would protect the participants?
If they started by deciding to "tempt God", that was foolish.
Once the victims came forth-which proved it DIDN'T work that way-
it was criminally careless to maintain that concept.
It was criminally poor stewardship.
It was considering individual Christians DISPOSABLE.
Which was more important-the doctrine and practices,
or the LIVES OF THE CHRISTIANS?
As we saw from vpw's decisions,
the doctrines and practices were MUCH more important than the LIVES
of the Christians. They were not really 'people' so much as 'assets.'
And the money expended to transport participants to LEAD was a more
valued asset than the safety of the people.
Of course, we're only taking his OWN word that he was never involved and never saw ANYTHING.
Hm. The description of Gaslighting certainly sounds familiar, like I've been hearing
this recently...
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