I see very limited freedom in having choices ...I still end up using gut feelings, and those are driven by twi theory's..I miss my freedom of expression....I even question my own gut.....
TWI was FULL of GRAY AREAS. That's what kept us all bamboozled for so long.
There were some good things that happened to me in TWI. Lets see...uh... I met my husband there.... I learned how to use the proper fork... I met some really nice folks who are still good friends to me today... (well, they are outa there...) I'm sure there are more. But the bad for me and my family outweighed and overpowered whatever good happened to me at their hands.
Your experience does not negate mine, nor does mine yours. Just because some good things happened there, doesn't mean that terrible and tragic things did not happen as well, to me or to others. And just because I had a mix of experiences, doesn't mean that there aren't folks out there who had NOTHING but awful experiences.
And there are some who claim that nothing but good ever happened to them at TWI. Usually those folks are still in. If they are out, there was SOMETHING that made their involvement with the organization no longer worth the hassle.
This past month in my personal life has been a battle over "black & white" thinking and none of it TWIt-related. :ph34r: I think it's TWIt residuals causing it, though. I remember Paul Brooks constantly said, "The more of the word you learn, the more black & white the world becomes." In TWI they tried to make things cut and dried, but there was so much "read between the lines" crap and "unwritten policies" that it's no wonder we have screwed up thinking. <_<
We adopted an "all or nothing" mentality and attitude. Remember, "if you don't at least give the minimum - the tithe, then you might as well not give anything!"
"If you don't plan to go to the Advanced Class, then you might as well not even take the foundational class."
"If you aren't trying to get better and grow then you're going backwards"
In TWI we HAD to be on the go - we had to give 100% or more 100% of the time. THere was nothing BUT extremes in TWI and many of us have held on to that "all or nothing" mentality. TWI was either all good or it was all bad. Marriages are all good or all bad. Kids are perfect little angles or annoying little devils. You either knew and lived the word or you were a spiritual hitchhiker. Mediocrity was not tolerated and "good enough" was NEVER "good enough".
I'm still working on seeing and appreciating the "shades" and variety of color in life. Some areas have become beautifully rainbows, but others, such as my own personal evaluation of myself and my life, are still black & white.
TWI was FULL of GRAY AREAS. That's what kept us all bamboozled for so long.
There were some good things that happened to me in TWI. Lets see...uh... I met my husband there.... I learned how to use the proper fork... I met some really nice folks who are still good friends to me today... (well, they are outa there...) I'm sure there are more. But the bad for me and my family outweighed and overpowered whatever good happened to me at their hands.
Your experience does not negate mine, nor does mine yours. Just because some good things happened there, doesn't mean that terrible and tragic things did not happen as well, to me or to others. And just because I had a mix of experiences, doesn't mean that there aren't folks out there who had NOTHING but awful experiences.
And there are some who claim that nothing but good ever happened to them at TWI. Usually those folks are still in. If they are out, there was SOMETHING that made their involvement with the organization no longer worth the hassle.
Not accepting that, is not accepting the truth.
Hmmmmmmm........
Catcup, I hear what you're saying.....but your missing my point. Perhaps, if you go and read the thread, Best of Times it might put this more in context. When expressing MY experiences......it doesn't have to be filtered through the eyes of THEM.
Anyways, maybe some grey...........but not COLOR.
Kinda like the movie "Pleasantville".... if you will. :)
Black/White Standards
1) Must take the class.....no grey area.
2) Cannot ask questions....no exceptions.
3) Be on time for every session....or start over.
4) Gotta go to know......Go WOW (not college)
5) Go corps.....to be a spiritual leader.
6) Be tough, be an in-your face leader....other styles are wimpish.
7) Stand with craig (not geer) letter.....craig's way or the highway.
8) Don't need to read newspapers....lcm will tell you WHAT to think.
9) Sanctifying twi's household......get on board/ homo-purge
10) Word is over the world.........a black/white statement
11) Old blue song books.......old wineskins
12) Wierwille stuff................old wineskins
13) Full-time corps........no choice, either/or
14) WAP Class............the new foundational class in twi
15) The Present Truth.......martindale was fronting the present spewth
Color Standards
1) My individuality
2) My background and experiences
3) My choices
4) My thoughts and feelings
5) My goals
6) My decision to exit twi
7) My future and family
I refute the all black/white mentality..............give me COLOR.
This past month in my personal life has been a battle over "black & white" thinking and none of it TWIt-related. :ph34r: I think it's TWIt residuals causing it, though. I remember Paul Brooks constantly said, "The more of the word you learn, the more black & white the world becomes." In TWI they tried to make things cut and dried, but there was so much "read between the lines" crap and "unwritten policies" that it's no wonder we have screwed up thinking. <_<
6) Be tough, be an in-your face leader....other styles are wimpish.
7) Stand with craig (not geer) letter.....craig's way or the highway.
8) Don't need to read newspapers....lcm will tell you WHAT to think.
9) Sanctifying twi's household......get on board/ homo-purge
10) Word is over the world.........a black/white statement
11) Old blue song books.......old wineskins
12) Wierwille stuff................old wineskins
13) Full-time corps........no choice, either/or
14) WAP Class............the new foundational class in twi
15) The Present Truth.......martindale was fronting the present spewth
I saw some of these things, though I did stand up and refute those that I did see.
I am not saying that the others did not happen, but rather that it was a big ministry and we all had entirely different experiences in it.
#1- I saw folks who had to wait over a year for a PFAL class to start. I waited 8 or 9 months. So harping on someone that they must take the class was often kind of dumb.
#2- The only problem that I see with asking questions, is that while your in mid-session it stops the session and stops the schedule of getting through the set of 12 sessions. But questions were welcome, write them down and we can discuss them before / during / after dinner the following evening.
#3- We did make-up sessions routinely.
#4 and #5- what do I *want* to know? I dont follow, WC routinely get into my face about going WC. But I always found that quoting PFAL back at them, usually stopped it. God is not going to tell anyone else' His Will in your life until after He has told you first. 'Little birdies' hearing it does not count.
#6- it has got to be The Word. When you can show a WC ring-knocker that his stand is off from the Bible, they shut up.
When it gets to the heart of TWI, what is not black and white about it? No one I have seen denies some genuine times with individuals, but overall it was about taking money and power and sex. There were some that had good times while genuinely being unaware of some of the nasty side. Others turned a blind eye and went singing on their merry way. Others were more disgusted but carried on for awhile.
If you follow the old adage "follow the money", just think of all the folks that were in dire straits and were pressed to give more to twi. And if you consider the pay to staff with no benefits ... that may be a crime too. I guess there are different reasons why some would on staff ... because it was a high calling? to advance a worthy cause? Even if they had some good times in the process, the root of it was a fraud, plain and simple ... black and white.
I think everyone's experiences "have" to be "filtered" through that. Sure there were some good things that happened in spite of the oppression ... to me the twigs or branches that helped each other with baby sitting and other things were the most genuine. It seems the farther up the tree you went, the more tainted you had to be to stick around. And somewhere between the little twiggie and the root were some "leaders" that were covering for some bad stuff they knew was going on at the root.
So to me, it depends on the exact question, but it is black and white that the corruption was deeply rooted and widespread from before my time of 1975. Some positive things that happened in spite of that doesn't change the big picture. In some cases trying too hard to white wash that is just plain old denial. (not a river in Egypt) All that time "in" may not have been a complete waste, but many were misdirected from better things. But a lot of life is like that.
... In some cases trying too hard to white wash that is just plain old denial. (not a river in Egypt) All that time "in" may not have been a complete waste, but many were misdirected from better things. But a lot of life is like that.
I did not mean to be white-washing, nor denying that bad happened.
Life happens and life is filled with bad.
I know that I have hurt people, I have caused people to be maimed and even killed. Though I dont think that through my involvement with The Way Ministry that I hurt anyone [though I certainly may have], I did try not to hurt anyone. Sometimes when I saw someone in a fellowship getting into something that looked shaky, I would often go aside with them to talk about it. Not uncommonly it was the influence of some idiot WC. I did see folks getting hurt, and I stood up and spoke out against it, when I could. Though being at the Twig level, my overall involvement with WC was fortunately very limited.
I think that it was up to each one of us, to walk in God;s light and to minister to others. If anyone of us saw bad things happening to other believers, than it was / is our duty to stand up and help them.
I was just a little Twig Coordinator, and for a time a Country Coordinator. I did things that caused WC to really dislike me. I could see them taking a deep breath and trying to renew their minds when getting ready to speak with me. Because I did my best to hold them to a standard, and I stopped them as often as I could to force them back onto that standard.
I was just a little Twig Coordinator, and for a time a Country Coordinator. I did things that caused WC to really dislike me. I could see them taking a deep breath and trying to renew their minds when getting ready to speak with me. Because I did my best to hold them to a standard, and I stopped them as often as I could to force them back onto that standard.
Galen.....for those who follow these Greasespot threads regularly, your comments above are typical black/white mentality. You despise the corps....yet, elevate wierwille and the classes that taught them.
Please refrain from turning this thread into ANOTHER corps bashing session.
For many of us, our years in twi were filtered through the prism of "This is God's ministry"...Everything spun off of that concept.
I'm not saying that EVERYTHING that ever happened in twi was evil...but for so many years, people thought within the "This is God's ministry" framework...
...My critisism of twi comes from my efforts to "strike a balance" and show the other side of the coin.
It's refreshing to see so many different opinions being expressed and individuality emerging from the lockstep mentality in contrast to the "groupthink" opinions that we all had in twi.
Galen.....for those who follow these Greasespot threads regularly, your comments above are typical black/white mentality. You despise the corps....yet, elevate wierwille and the classes that taught them.
I must have missed something, besides trying to figure out that sentence"...wierwillw and the classes that taught them..." ...because I have been around quite a while and dont remember seeing Galen post about how TWI was all good or all bad. Galen can correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think he ever said that he despised the corps or that he elevates"wierwille and the classes that taught them". I do agree that if you say that VPW taught some very good things, you can be accused of elevating him, even if you also acknowledge wrongs he did.
We will only bash the specific part of the ministry that you wish to bash.
:)
Catcup, Groucho and LiftedUp -
I agree with you and think that your great!
LOL
I saw good and I saw bad. Like both of you.
I worked hard to strike a balance [thanks Groucho].
I may have said at some point that I despised WC, I dont recall. I have been fairly drunk at times too. And to be honest 99% of my problems with TWI was from dealing with WC. I recal that someone else had used the phrase WC nazi, and I liked the way it sounded so I used that phrase for a time. But it really did offend others. So after a time I stopped using it. But even after stopped from using it, others here will still admit that they had to deal with WC who were nazis. So is it just me?
But there were good ones too.
I dont I disliked all of them, just those that I saw hurting others. Taking advantage over others.
I certainly do believe that I was called of God to be apart of TWI. And I do believe that parts of PFAL are great.
I freely admit that, and we have debated that at length.
We will only bash the specific part of the ministry that you wish to bash.
So......by addressing a "black/white concept" in twi....and trying to find a balance and color my life with a spectrum of viewpoints, experiences and relationships.....it's "bashing the specific part of the ministry that I wish to bash."
What...???
I must have missed something......
Lifted Up.....check out dmiller's post following Galen's.
So......by addressing a "black/white concept" in twi....and trying to find a balance and color my life with a spectrum of viewpoints, experiences and relationships.....it's "bashing the specific part of the ministry that I wish to bash."
What...???
You demand that I can only bash your private pet-peeve.
So I call you "mister Moderator", as if you owned the BBS. LOL
I think that in America I can likely bash any thing that I wish to bash.
Did someone tell you not to bash your 'black/white"?
I've always taken the phrase black and white to mean looking at a situation through a spiritual lens. There's a time to do that. For instance, in Hebrews it says Jesus was in all points tempted like we are. Was Jesus a woman? Did he ever have a period? Go through labor. Married? Have kids? How could He possibly have been tempted in all points...UNLESS. Unless temptation and sin are a lot more black and white in God's view than some here would have us believe.
This does not negate individuality. I recall that VP had a different outfit on for all 15 segments of CFS. Plus having Tick on the set. There is nothing whatsoever spiritual, godly or ungodly, about hunting dogs or clothes. VP was expressing his own individuality.
Over time TWIs legalism choked peoples' individuality. Many times WC was the mouth piece of this.
Going up against WC Nazi's is a terrible but honorary thing to do.My last BC and TC was one.My last roomate outside twi was similiar, these personality types are scarry.
If you did not hug her when you came into fellowship, she would think you where hidding something.....
she was relentless, she knew what you where doing every hr of the day......she was a flippin micro micro manager.....no love there
oh, how I wish I didnt go back in the 90's.....but if you all have been harbouring your feelings, being left alone, I just dont know..We never felt alone.......
"…I just posted on the Best of Times thread.....seems like there is this all black/white mentality that continues to be pervasive on some threads. Is this "all or nothing" viewpoint a residual effect of a high-demand religious group (i.e. a cult?)?
Living one's life........is COLORED with all sorts of emotions, learning experiences, relationships, lifestyles, political & religious viewpoints, ancestorial backgrounds, etc. And, more detailed coloring is added for some who experienced extreme highs and/or lows in the multi-faceted categories in life.
Why does there continue to be this....all black versus all white mentalitywhen it comes to expressing one's experiences..?? I mean, heck....when I read a biography of one's life, I don't read an "all or nothing" approach..?? Doesn't everyone have good and bad "chapters" in life...?? I think so. When I'm talking about ME.....and MY experiences.....can't I have both? …Heck, so many in twi never found the proper balance between doctrine or practice.....let alone adding to the equation....emotions, relationships, changes throughout life, proper boundaries, financial security, etc.And, imo by continuing to blanket reality with a black/white approach is very unhealthy…"
I think you have a good point, Skyrider. Several good points actually. When you mentioned reading someone's biography I thought of the From Birth to the Way Corps autobiography we were required to write. I have a distinct memory of interpreting all my life's experiences thus far through the stilted black-and-white filter of TWI's viewpoint as I crafted a distorted [according to my own current viewpoint] narration of my life…In my opinion, reality is too complicated for TWI's simplistic way of thinking. As you put it – many TWI followers couldn't manage with any intellectual poise matters of doctrine, practice, emotions, relationships, etc.
…Each person's life is a very complicated thing. I think as we mature and give thought to our experiences that we continue to draw more insight about ourselves. And I mean give thought – not mindlessly playing them back over and over again like a broken record. How did those experiences – "good", "bad", or undefined [bet you weren't ready for that!] – shape who I am today? What about all the different aspects of my life at that time? In my opinion it's sort of like understanding or appreciating a favorite movie at several different levels. One of my favorite movies is Being John Malkovich – a comic fantasy about a street puppeteer who discovers a portal into the brain of the actor John Malkovich. On the surface the movie is utterly ridiculous – but it's my kind of humor. There are other levels too – I like how the movie gets into people's struggle for identity, self-esteem and power, how people can be manipulative, how people deal with manipulators, how people deal with emotions and with their past, and so on.
We each have the right to express – to interpret our experiences the way we want – and not feel pressured to kowtow to someone else's viewpoint – especially black-and-white thinking – which in my opinion doesn't take in the whole picture. For me personally – I usually try to get a clearer picture – a more accurate picture – of what was happening to me, what were the subtle dynamics of things going on in my life at the time. I find myself re-interpreting many of my TWI experiences – in terms of understanding why I reacted a certain way in a particular incident, my motivation in a specific situation, etc. I know in terms of time – it's twelve years of my life I will never get back – but I am intent on garnering as much useful info as I can out of it – with a view toward making my life better now because of it and/or in spite of it! Uh oh, I see on the Rambling Meter I have gone way over the acceptable operating level – so I'm shutin' er down!
Belle said - TWI was either all good or it was all bad.
I do remember feeling that way - that there was no grey area about anything - whether it was doctrine, situations, or just news events. Not sure if it was so much twi, or just my age and idealism. my start in twi was when I was 17 and i think many teens/college students see things in black and white terms.
Not that twi did anything to discourage this type of thinking, and I can see did everything to encourage that type of thinking.
I've always been a gullible person, and I guess a joiner, so makes sense I would be pulled in. Yet there was all the goodness, love, and truth that did shine through all the rest of it.
I think you have a good point, Skyrider. Several good points actually. When you mentioned reading someone's biography I thought of the From Birth to the Way Corps autobiography we were required to write. I have a distinct memory of interpreting all my life's experiences thus far through the stilted black-and-white filter of TWI's viewpoint as I crafted a distorted [according to my own current viewpoint] narration of my life…In my opinion, reality is too complicated for TWI's simplistic way of thinking. As you put it – many TWI followers couldn't manage with any intellectual poise matters of doctrine, practice, emotions, relationships, etc.
…Each person's life is a very complicated thing. I think as we mature and give thought to our experiences that we continue to draw more insight about ourselves. And I mean give thought – not mindlessly playing them back over and over again like a broken record. How did those experiences – "good", "bad", or undefined [bet you weren't ready for that!] – shape who I am today? What about all the different aspects of my life at that time? In my opinion it's sort of like understanding or appreciating a favorite movie at several different levels. One of my favorite movies is Being John Malkovich – a comic fantasy about a street puppeteer who discovers a portal into the brain of the actor John Malkovich. On the surface the movie is utterly ridiculous – but it's my kind of humor. There are other levels too – I like how the movie gets into people's struggle for identity, self-esteem and power, how people can be manipulative, how people deal with manipulators, how people deal with emotions and with their past, and so on.
We each have the right to express – to interpret our experiences the way we want – and not feel pressured to kowtow to someone else's viewpoint – especially black-and-white thinking – which in my opinion doesn't take in the whole picture. For me personally – I usually try to get a clearer picture – a more accurate picture – of what was happening to me, what were the subtle dynamics of things going on in my life at the time. I find myself re-interpreting many of my TWI experiences – in terms of understanding why I reacted a certain way in a particular incident, my motivation in a specific situation, etc. I know in terms of time – it's twelve years of my life I will never get back – but I am intent on garnering as much useful info as I can out of it – with a view toward making my life better now because of it and/or in spite of it! Uh oh, I see on the Rambling Meter I have gone way over the acceptable operating level – so I'm shutin' er down!
As you said "Lots to unravel.........still."
Thanks T-Bone.......yeah, that sums up alot of what I'm seeing, too.
All of my life's experiences....."good, bad and undefined"..... have made significant impressions on my thought processes, emotions, intellect, etc. And, as I articulate this information and "re-interpret" my findings......I can more effectively move forward without playing the same broken records [experiences] in my head over and over.
And, again......this is not just a "me versus twi" capsule. No way! I'm looking at my life........and twi was a subset of those experiences.
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likeaneagle
so true skyrider....
I see very limited freedom in having choices ...I still end up using gut feelings, and those are driven by twi theory's..I miss my freedom of expression....I even question my own gut.....
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Catcup
Black and White, hell.
TWI was FULL of GRAY AREAS. That's what kept us all bamboozled for so long.
There were some good things that happened to me in TWI. Lets see...uh... I met my husband there.... I learned how to use the proper fork... I met some really nice folks who are still good friends to me today... (well, they are outa there...) I'm sure there are more. But the bad for me and my family outweighed and overpowered whatever good happened to me at their hands.
Your experience does not negate mine, nor does mine yours. Just because some good things happened there, doesn't mean that terrible and tragic things did not happen as well, to me or to others. And just because I had a mix of experiences, doesn't mean that there aren't folks out there who had NOTHING but awful experiences.
And there are some who claim that nothing but good ever happened to them at TWI. Usually those folks are still in. If they are out, there was SOMETHING that made their involvement with the organization no longer worth the hassle.
Not accepting that, is not accepting the truth.
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Belle
Have you been breaking into my e-mails?? :o
This past month in my personal life has been a battle over "black & white" thinking and none of it TWIt-related. :ph34r: I think it's TWIt residuals causing it, though. I remember Paul Brooks constantly said, "The more of the word you learn, the more black & white the world becomes." In TWI they tried to make things cut and dried, but there was so much "read between the lines" crap and "unwritten policies" that it's no wonder we have screwed up thinking. <_<
We adopted an "all or nothing" mentality and attitude. Remember, "if you don't at least give the minimum - the tithe, then you might as well not give anything!"
"If you don't plan to go to the Advanced Class, then you might as well not even take the foundational class."
"If you aren't trying to get better and grow then you're going backwards"
In TWI we HAD to be on the go - we had to give 100% or more 100% of the time. THere was nothing BUT extremes in TWI and many of us have held on to that "all or nothing" mentality. TWI was either all good or it was all bad. Marriages are all good or all bad. Kids are perfect little angles or annoying little devils. You either knew and lived the word or you were a spiritual hitchhiker. Mediocrity was not tolerated and "good enough" was NEVER "good enough".
I'm still working on seeing and appreciating the "shades" and variety of color in life. Some areas have become beautifully rainbows, but others, such as my own personal evaluation of myself and my life, are still black & white.
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skyrider
Hmmmmmmm........
Catcup, I hear what you're saying.....but your missing my point. Perhaps, if you go and read the thread, Best of Times it might put this more in context. When expressing MY experiences......it doesn't have to be filtered through the eyes of THEM.
Anyways, maybe some grey...........but not COLOR.
Kinda like the movie "Pleasantville".... if you will. :)
Black/White Standards
1) Must take the class.....no grey area.
2) Cannot ask questions....no exceptions.
3) Be on time for every session....or start over.
4) Gotta go to know......Go WOW (not college)
5) Go corps.....to be a spiritual leader.
6) Be tough, be an in-your face leader....other styles are wimpish.
7) Stand with craig (not geer) letter.....craig's way or the highway.
8) Don't need to read newspapers....lcm will tell you WHAT to think.
9) Sanctifying twi's household......get on board/ homo-purge
10) Word is over the world.........a black/white statement
11) Old blue song books.......old wineskins
12) Wierwille stuff................old wineskins
13) Full-time corps........no choice, either/or
14) WAP Class............the new foundational class in twi
15) The Present Truth.......martindale was fronting the present spewth
Color Standards
1) My individuality
2) My background and experiences
3) My choices
4) My thoughts and feelings
5) My goals
6) My decision to exit twi
7) My future and family
I refute the all black/white mentality..............give me COLOR.
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skyrider
((Belle))...........EXACTLY. :)
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Catcup
Precisely.
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Galen
I saw some of these things, though I did stand up and refute those that I did see.
I am not saying that the others did not happen, but rather that it was a big ministry and we all had entirely different experiences in it.
#1- I saw folks who had to wait over a year for a PFAL class to start. I waited 8 or 9 months. So harping on someone that they must take the class was often kind of dumb.
#2- The only problem that I see with asking questions, is that while your in mid-session it stops the session and stops the schedule of getting through the set of 12 sessions. But questions were welcome, write them down and we can discuss them before / during / after dinner the following evening.
#3- We did make-up sessions routinely.
#4 and #5- what do I *want* to know? I dont follow, WC routinely get into my face about going WC. But I always found that quoting PFAL back at them, usually stopped it. God is not going to tell anyone else' His Will in your life until after He has told you first. 'Little birdies' hearing it does not count.
#6- it has got to be The Word. When you can show a WC ring-knocker that his stand is off from the Bible, they shut up.
:)
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dmiller
To everything turn -- turn -- turn.
There is a season turn -- turn -- turn..... ;)
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rhino
When it gets to the heart of TWI, what is not black and white about it? No one I have seen denies some genuine times with individuals, but overall it was about taking money and power and sex. There were some that had good times while genuinely being unaware of some of the nasty side. Others turned a blind eye and went singing on their merry way. Others were more disgusted but carried on for awhile.
If you follow the old adage "follow the money", just think of all the folks that were in dire straits and were pressed to give more to twi. And if you consider the pay to staff with no benefits ... that may be a crime too. I guess there are different reasons why some would on staff ... because it was a high calling? to advance a worthy cause? Even if they had some good times in the process, the root of it was a fraud, plain and simple ... black and white.
I think everyone's experiences "have" to be "filtered" through that. Sure there were some good things that happened in spite of the oppression ... to me the twigs or branches that helped each other with baby sitting and other things were the most genuine. It seems the farther up the tree you went, the more tainted you had to be to stick around. And somewhere between the little twiggie and the root were some "leaders" that were covering for some bad stuff they knew was going on at the root.
So to me, it depends on the exact question, but it is black and white that the corruption was deeply rooted and widespread from before my time of 1975. Some positive things that happened in spite of that doesn't change the big picture. In some cases trying too hard to white wash that is just plain old denial. (not a river in Egypt) All that time "in" may not have been a complete waste, but many were misdirected from better things. But a lot of life is like that.
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Galen
I did not mean to be white-washing, nor denying that bad happened.
Life happens and life is filled with bad.
I know that I have hurt people, I have caused people to be maimed and even killed. Though I dont think that through my involvement with The Way Ministry that I hurt anyone [though I certainly may have], I did try not to hurt anyone. Sometimes when I saw someone in a fellowship getting into something that looked shaky, I would often go aside with them to talk about it. Not uncommonly it was the influence of some idiot WC. I did see folks getting hurt, and I stood up and spoke out against it, when I could. Though being at the Twig level, my overall involvement with WC was fortunately very limited.
I think that it was up to each one of us, to walk in God;s light and to minister to others. If anyone of us saw bad things happening to other believers, than it was / is our duty to stand up and help them.
I was just a little Twig Coordinator, and for a time a Country Coordinator. I did things that caused WC to really dislike me. I could see them taking a deep breath and trying to renew their minds when getting ready to speak with me. Because I did my best to hold them to a standard, and I stopped them as often as I could to force them back onto that standard.
:)
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skyrider
Galen.....for those who follow these Greasespot threads regularly, your comments above are typical black/white mentality. You despise the corps....yet, elevate wierwille and the classes that taught them.
Please refrain from turning this thread into ANOTHER corps bashing session.
Thanks.
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GrouchoMarxJr
For many of us, our years in twi were filtered through the prism of "This is God's ministry"...Everything spun off of that concept.
I'm not saying that EVERYTHING that ever happened in twi was evil...but for so many years, people thought within the "This is God's ministry" framework...
...My critisism of twi comes from my efforts to "strike a balance" and show the other side of the coin.
It's refreshing to see so many different opinions being expressed and individuality emerging from the lockstep mentality in contrast to the "groupthink" opinions that we all had in twi.
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Lifted Up
I must have missed something, besides trying to figure out that sentence"...wierwillw and the classes that taught them..." ...because I have been around quite a while and dont remember seeing Galen post about how TWI was all good or all bad. Galen can correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think he ever said that he despised the corps or that he elevates"wierwille and the classes that taught them". I do agree that if you say that VPW taught some very good things, you can be accused of elevating him, even if you also acknowledge wrongs he did.
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Galen
Okay fine. Mister Moderator.
:)
We will only bash the specific part of the ministry that you wish to bash.
:)
Catcup, Groucho and LiftedUp -
I agree with you and think that your great!
LOL
I saw good and I saw bad. Like both of you.
I worked hard to strike a balance [thanks Groucho].
I may have said at some point that I despised WC, I dont recall. I have been fairly drunk at times too. And to be honest 99% of my problems with TWI was from dealing with WC. I recal that someone else had used the phrase WC nazi, and I liked the way it sounded so I used that phrase for a time. But it really did offend others. So after a time I stopped using it. But even after stopped from using it, others here will still admit that they had to deal with WC who were nazis. So is it just me?
But there were good ones too.
I dont I disliked all of them, just those that I saw hurting others. Taking advantage over others.
I certainly do believe that I was called of God to be apart of TWI. And I do believe that parts of PFAL are great.
I freely admit that, and we have debated that at length.
Bless you guys.
:)
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skyrider
So......by addressing a "black/white concept" in twi....and trying to find a balance and color my life with a spectrum of viewpoints, experiences and relationships.....it's "bashing the specific part of the ministry that I wish to bash."
What...???
Lifted Up.....check out dmiller's post following Galen's.
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Galen
You demand that I can only bash your private pet-peeve.
So I call you "mister Moderator", as if you owned the BBS. LOL
I think that in America I can likely bash any thing that I wish to bash.
Did someone tell you not to bash your 'black/white"?
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skyrider
Galen..........did I strike a nerve, or what..???
I presented 15 aspects of black/white mentality in twi.
I presented 7 aspects of individuality.
Are you okay.....???
:)
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johniam
I've always taken the phrase black and white to mean looking at a situation through a spiritual lens. There's a time to do that. For instance, in Hebrews it says Jesus was in all points tempted like we are. Was Jesus a woman? Did he ever have a period? Go through labor. Married? Have kids? How could He possibly have been tempted in all points...UNLESS. Unless temptation and sin are a lot more black and white in God's view than some here would have us believe.
This does not negate individuality. I recall that VP had a different outfit on for all 15 segments of CFS. Plus having Tick on the set. There is nothing whatsoever spiritual, godly or ungodly, about hunting dogs or clothes. VP was expressing his own individuality.
Over time TWIs legalism choked peoples' individuality. Many times WC was the mouth piece of this.
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likeaneagle
Galen-
Going up against WC Nazi's is a terrible but honorary thing to do.My last BC and TC was one.My last roomate outside twi was similiar, these personality types are scarry.
If you did not hug her when you came into fellowship, she would think you where hidding something.....
she was relentless, she knew what you where doing every hr of the day......she was a flippin micro micro manager.....no love there
oh, how I wish I didnt go back in the 90's.....but if you all have been harbouring your feelings, being left alone, I just dont know..We never felt alone.......
now im rambling..
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T-Bone
I think you have a good point, Skyrider. Several good points actually. When you mentioned reading someone's biography I thought of the From Birth to the Way Corps autobiography we were required to write. I have a distinct memory of interpreting all my life's experiences thus far through the stilted black-and-white filter of TWI's viewpoint as I crafted a distorted [according to my own current viewpoint] narration of my life…In my opinion, reality is too complicated for TWI's simplistic way of thinking. As you put it – many TWI followers couldn't manage with any intellectual poise matters of doctrine, practice, emotions, relationships, etc.
…Each person's life is a very complicated thing. I think as we mature and give thought to our experiences that we continue to draw more insight about ourselves. And I mean give thought – not mindlessly playing them back over and over again like a broken record. How did those experiences – "good", "bad", or undefined [bet you weren't ready for that!] – shape who I am today? What about all the different aspects of my life at that time? In my opinion it's sort of like understanding or appreciating a favorite movie at several different levels. One of my favorite movies is Being John Malkovich – a comic fantasy about a street puppeteer who discovers a portal into the brain of the actor John Malkovich. On the surface the movie is utterly ridiculous – but it's my kind of humor. There are other levels too – I like how the movie gets into people's struggle for identity, self-esteem and power, how people can be manipulative, how people deal with manipulators, how people deal with emotions and with their past, and so on.
We each have the right to express – to interpret our experiences the way we want – and not feel pressured to kowtow to someone else's viewpoint – especially black-and-white thinking – which in my opinion doesn't take in the whole picture. For me personally – I usually try to get a clearer picture – a more accurate picture – of what was happening to me, what were the subtle dynamics of things going on in my life at the time. I find myself re-interpreting many of my TWI experiences – in terms of understanding why I reacted a certain way in a particular incident, my motivation in a specific situation, etc. I know in terms of time – it's twelve years of my life I will never get back – but I am intent on garnering as much useful info as I can out of it – with a view toward making my life better now because of it and/or in spite of it! Uh oh, I see on the Rambling Meter I have gone way over the acceptable operating level – so I'm shutin' er down!
As you said "Lots to unravel.........still."
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alleycat
Belle said - TWI was either all good or it was all bad.
I do remember feeling that way - that there was no grey area about anything - whether it was doctrine, situations, or just news events. Not sure if it was so much twi, or just my age and idealism. my start in twi was when I was 17 and i think many teens/college students see things in black and white terms.
Not that twi did anything to discourage this type of thinking, and I can see did everything to encourage that type of thinking.
I've always been a gullible person, and I guess a joiner, so makes sense I would be pulled in. Yet there was all the goodness, love, and truth that did shine through all the rest of it.
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skyrider
Thanks T-Bone.......yeah, that sums up alot of what I'm seeing, too.
All of my life's experiences....."good, bad and undefined"..... have made significant impressions on my thought processes, emotions, intellect, etc. And, as I articulate this information and "re-interpret" my findings......I can more effectively move forward without playing the same broken records [experiences] in my head over and over.
And, again......this is not just a "me versus twi" capsule. No way! I'm looking at my life........and twi was a subset of those experiences.
On the chessboard of life......it's MY move.
:)
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