Many of us on GSC had an overall negative experience with TWI. When trying to figure out how it went so sour, how we were so blind, TWI doctrine comes up. Obeying the MOG, the emphasis put on conformity--they were all tied up in doctrine, Bible verses and teachings to bolster those practices.
I personally don't care too much about jot and tittle doctrinal discussions--this Greek word means this not that, etc. Had that for twenty years, and in the end it lead to nowhere good or healthy in my experience. How much of it was used in away to get and keep power over people?
Some people still have great trust in the Bible...I think what they really trust is their own interpretation of the Bible. Some still argue that there is One Definitive Interpretation of the Bible. Seems to me there isn't and can't be...others know they have the Truth.
Well, well. Seems like the Pharisees had a pretty good grasp of the letter also. But it was the spirit of the word that Jesus used. Same doctrine, different application.
Also, people in TWI come here and seriously consider what we have to say. They may laugh sometimes. They may scoff sometimes. And they may think sometimes.
Where else are they going to go to find people discussing their beliefs, people who once held those beliefs and now may have come to different conclusions?
Excellent responses. Sometimes GSers who still believe some or all of PFAL get a little miffed at the criticism. Well, the criticism isn't always right, but it should make you think. If you don't want to think, that's a whole 'nother problem then, isn't it?
Great idea for a thread, Oakspear! And I agree with you on the main point of GSC is to turn a critical eye on TWI – for the very simple reason you stated – relevancy. In my opinion, there is something many of us who left TWI had in common while we were in TWI – a weakness of critical thinking skills. When some people hear "critical thinking" they may assume that's all about looking for what's wrong with something.
They way I understand it - critical thinking is about analyzing something, trying to identify all the parts – what's good and bad [even defining what our standard is to determine those aspects], what's indefinite, what's logical/illogical, whether or not it's consistent with the whole framework of thought. It's trying to find out assumptions behind an idea or trying to articulate the originating viewpoint of a belief or considering implications or associated ideas. And really to be honest - it's even turning a critical eye on our own viewpoint - how we're looking at all the information - what are our assumptions, our framework of thought, what "filters" are on our mind's eye.
No one can do all of that perfectly or consistently of course – but critical thinking is giving it your best shot. For me - critical thinking is more about discovery than debate. More a matter of wanting to understand something rather than wanting to prove I'm right - that's what it is ideally - but I know on occasion we all retreat into our comfortable viewpoint zone - then it becomes more of an argument than a discussion.
Whenever we get into TWI doctrines and practices on GSC I like it for the exercise of everyone's critical thinking skills. Sort of like what people have to do with physical therapy to regain their strength back – or what healthy people do to maintain strength. Back in my TWI-daze it was all about absorbing their stuff – never about analyzing it. Any "thinking" I did on my part usually re-enforced what they taught.
One of VPW's greatest sedatives to student's brains was his old one liner, "You can't go beyond what you're taught" or as WordWolf defined it "intellectual hobbling." After leaving TWI I'm very reluctant to buy into any pet phrase or the-secret-of-the-universe-formula. Maybe all I've figured out since coming to GSC is that you can't go beyond your viewpoint – LOL . But in saying that I realize the quantum leaps I've made in some areas of my belief system – since I left TWI. I'm not saying I've grown in knowledge – like TWI's typical know-it-all-Bible-jock. Maybe it's more like expanding my viewpoint – perhaps being intellectually humble enough to realize I ain't figured it all out and it's okay to really consider the ideas of someone else's viewpoint.
TWI must have surely followed some sound doctrine in the early days. Otherwise, people would have heard the shpiel and said"fugetaboutit". I personally know people who, having met in TWI over 30 years ago, remain friends to this day.
The problem is, the doctrines not only changed, some took on an entirely opposing meaning.
How else can we explain how a ministry that taught we could face any adversity as long as God was with us to a ministry that was afraid something terrible might happen in a cake decorating class(see previous thread involving this subject) unless two believers were present at all times?
How could a ministry go from teaching that it was needless to be anxious about tomorrow to one that required elaborate,in-depth explainations for every minute of the day,lest the Devil seize the moment?
Speaking only for myself, I find fault in the inconsistancy and wavering of TWI "doctrine".
If only one "innie" reading these posts is able to piece together what has really happened and continues to happen, That in itself should explain why we criticize TWI doctrine.
I prefer taunting my husky with the broom. She goes NUTS when I try to sweep the floor. I guess she thinks the broom is going to eat her food or something.
TWI must have surely followed some sound doctrine in the early days. Otherwise, people would have heard the shpiel and said"fugetaboutit".
Not necessarily. Many of us, if not most of us who got involved with TWI had little or no exposure to any kind of systematic theology. We wouldn't know how to identify what was sound and what wasn't if our lives depended on it. Wierwille just did a materful job of marketing his product.
If we're going to discuss what made TWI popular in its golden days, we must acknowledge that it wasn't all about the doctrine. Back in the 70's and even the early 80's many people got some real deliverance via TWI. So its appeal wasn't only what they taught, but what happened in people's lives as they accepted the Way doctrines and lifestyle. Leanring to speak in tongues for instance. Getting miraculously healed. Both of those happened to me and I perceived them as powerful endorsements of the "rightness" of the doctrine.
Now I have reexamined and rejected much of that doctrine, but I have grown to the point where I can continue to believe on the God who healed me, and worship him in spirit, without being afraid to admit that the people who got me started on this path taught a lot of stupid stuff.
I prefer taunting my husky with the broom. She goes NUTS when I try to sweep the floor. I guess she thinks the broom is going to eat her food or something.
...Or your dog is thinking, "Where did you learn to sweep, Sushi? Would you just give me that broom - I'll show you how it's done!"....I know - that's a little ridiculous - your dog might not even know your GSC name is Sushi.
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dancing
Oakspear,
Yes this is a site for ex twi or anyone else.
Why attack twi doctrine?
Because it's still alive and well in many circles.
Not only in twi but in other 'camps' as well.
twi doctrine is the slavery that men have produced from the workings of God.
twi is a profile of what can be doine to harm injur and kill people.
twi is a perspective that will stop the mind from thinking and give in to peer pressure.
The spirit of the old testament killed by the carenal mind,
nailed to a cross that which was against us and contrary to us.
Taking it out of the way.
Principalities and powers still want to try to show their hand of deceit.
Clear thinking and freedom to think without dogma.
The spirit of God knows no bounds.
It cannot be bound unless we let something bind it.
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Bramble
Many of us on GSC had an overall negative experience with TWI. When trying to figure out how it went so sour, how we were so blind, TWI doctrine comes up. Obeying the MOG, the emphasis put on conformity--they were all tied up in doctrine, Bible verses and teachings to bolster those practices.
I personally don't care too much about jot and tittle doctrinal discussions--this Greek word means this not that, etc. Had that for twenty years, and in the end it lead to nowhere good or healthy in my experience. How much of it was used in away to get and keep power over people?
Some people still have great trust in the Bible...I think what they really trust is their own interpretation of the Bible. Some still argue that there is One Definitive Interpretation of the Bible. Seems to me there isn't and can't be...others know they have the Truth.
Makes for interesting viewpoints.
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Sushi
I don't limit my criticizing of doctrine to TWI. If nothing else, it's a fun parlor game.
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Tom Strange
yeah... what sushi said!
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templelady
Not all of TWI doctrine started out wrong
It was the abuse by powerful men
who twisted their own words to justify the abuses they perpetuated
when those abuses were outside of What TWI purported to represent and believe that get my blood perking
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dancing
Good Question.
what is doctrine anyway
some unchangeable thought pattern?
a system of thinking?
rules and regulations?
is it a tank with thick armour that nothing could get through?
I THINK NOT!!!
lol....
has man progressed and not God?
if God doesn't change have we ever really seen him?
the bible...pfffft...
o my God
held in the face like some kind of rule book
NEVER INTENDED TO BE THAT AT ALL!!!!!!
imo....of course
remove NOT the landmarks!!!!!............. they yell
shoot, just where in the flock are they?
we are to GROW
which means changeing thinking
'we shall all be changed' it says
well I damn well hope it's more then my body
cause my thoughts are getting tiresome sometimes
bored, depressed, angry, joy, gladness
all those FEELINGS that some religous people despise
yeah, they say control your emotions
f you, no, maybe i want to see where they lead me!
not to hurt though my own hurt lives
not for gladness though i'd like it to be there
without sadness where would happy be?
so
o yeah, doctrine
what an abused word
limiting so much that can be experienced
learned seen felt in every part of the mind and body
let's pick a new definition for doctrine
like say.......
what we need to be feel hear learn and grow out of
into the arms and mind of a living breathing God
that is so darn close you can smell it
God says move
the Spirit is moving
well by God I'll leave my tire marks all over that damn word
run it over a few times
till i can BREATH THE SPIRIT OF GOD again
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DrtyDzn
Well, well. Seems like the Pharisees had a pretty good grasp of the letter also. But it was the spirit of the word that Jesus used. Same doctrine, different application.
Jerry
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Abigail
why do people climb Mt. Everest?
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TheInvisibleDan
I think it's interesting to discuss our weird beliefs.
Those which we believed in the past.
And those which we entertain in the present.
To contemplate the hidden "tWILIGHT zONEs"
of our hearts.
(lol).
Danny
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Raf
Also, people in TWI come here and seriously consider what we have to say. They may laugh sometimes. They may scoff sometimes. And they may think sometimes.
Where else are they going to go to find people discussing their beliefs, people who once held those beliefs and now may have come to different conclusions?
And where the devil is Mike?
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Oakspear
Excellent responses. Sometimes GSers who still believe some or all of PFAL get a little miffed at the criticism. Well, the criticism isn't always right, but it should make you think. If you don't want to think, that's a whole 'nother problem then, isn't it?
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T-Bone
Great idea for a thread, Oakspear! And I agree with you on the main point of GSC is to turn a critical eye on TWI – for the very simple reason you stated – relevancy. In my opinion, there is something many of us who left TWI had in common while we were in TWI – a weakness of critical thinking skills. When some people hear "critical thinking" they may assume that's all about looking for what's wrong with something.
They way I understand it - critical thinking is about analyzing something, trying to identify all the parts – what's good and bad [even defining what our standard is to determine those aspects], what's indefinite, what's logical/illogical, whether or not it's consistent with the whole framework of thought. It's trying to find out assumptions behind an idea or trying to articulate the originating viewpoint of a belief or considering implications or associated ideas. And really to be honest - it's even turning a critical eye on our own viewpoint - how we're looking at all the information - what are our assumptions, our framework of thought, what "filters" are on our mind's eye.
No one can do all of that perfectly or consistently of course – but critical thinking is giving it your best shot. For me - critical thinking is more about discovery than debate. More a matter of wanting to understand something rather than wanting to prove I'm right - that's what it is ideally - but I know on occasion we all retreat into our comfortable viewpoint zone - then it becomes more of an argument than a discussion.
Whenever we get into TWI doctrines and practices on GSC I like it for the exercise of everyone's critical thinking skills. Sort of like what people have to do with physical therapy to regain their strength back – or what healthy people do to maintain strength. Back in my TWI-daze it was all about absorbing their stuff – never about analyzing it. Any "thinking" I did on my part usually re-enforced what they taught.
One of VPW's greatest sedatives to student's brains was his old one liner, "You can't go beyond what you're taught" or as WordWolf defined it "intellectual hobbling." After leaving TWI I'm very reluctant to buy into any pet phrase or the-secret-of-the-universe-formula. Maybe all I've figured out since coming to GSC is that you can't go beyond your viewpoint – LOL
. But in saying that I realize the quantum leaps I've made in some areas of my belief system – since I left TWI. I'm not saying I've grown in knowledge – like TWI's typical know-it-all-Bible-jock. Maybe it's more like expanding my viewpoint – perhaps being intellectually humble enough to realize I ain't figured it all out and it's okay to really consider the ideas of someone else's viewpoint.
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GarthP2000
Let sleeping dogs lie, ... willya?!?
:ph34r:
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waysider
TWI must have surely followed some sound doctrine in the early days. Otherwise, people would have heard the shpiel and said"fugetaboutit". I personally know people who, having met in TWI over 30 years ago, remain friends to this day.
The problem is, the doctrines not only changed, some took on an entirely opposing meaning.
How else can we explain how a ministry that taught we could face any adversity as long as God was with us to a ministry that was afraid something terrible might happen in a cake decorating class(see previous thread involving this subject) unless two believers were present at all times?
How could a ministry go from teaching that it was needless to be anxious about tomorrow to one that required elaborate,in-depth explainations for every minute of the day,lest the Devil seize the moment?
Speaking only for myself, I find fault in the inconsistancy and wavering of TWI "doctrine".
If only one "innie" reading these posts is able to piece together what has really happened and continues to happen, That in itself should explain why we criticize TWI doctrine.
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templelady
But it is so much fun to throw sticks and watch them chase them!!!!!!
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Sushi
I prefer taunting my husky with the broom. She goes NUTS when I try to sweep the floor. I guess she thinks the broom is going to eat her food or something.
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dancing
Good points waysider
why is it that doctrine is held in such high esteem when it is not even understood?
under the old definition of 'right believing'
let's take for instance
'the giver and the gift' pfal style
what if one was shown differently
not by men but by the revelation of Jesus Christ
wouldn't there be a choice to make?
what if it is different yet not fully understood?
would one hold to the old doctrine or leave it-
to seek further this new found way of learning
and what was learned?
(of course the old learning is still in the mind and can actually be drawn upon, even dismantled to see what held it together)
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Oakspear
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Jbarrax
If we're going to discuss what made TWI popular in its golden days, we must acknowledge that it wasn't all about the doctrine. Back in the 70's and even the early 80's many people got some real deliverance via TWI. So its appeal wasn't only what they taught, but what happened in people's lives as they accepted the Way doctrines and lifestyle. Leanring to speak in tongues for instance. Getting miraculously healed. Both of those happened to me and I perceived them as powerful endorsements of the "rightness" of the doctrine.
Now I have reexamined and rejected much of that doctrine, but I have grown to the point where I can continue to believe on the God who healed me, and worship him in spirit, without being afraid to admit that the people who got me started on this path taught a lot of stupid stuff.
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dancing
How is that the doctrine gets the credit?
Who heals? What heals?
Not doubting your statement about being healed.
Just how it came to pass.
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WordWolf
What he was referring to was the mistake most of us made, where we confused
CORRELATION with CAUSATION.
That is, confusing things that were TOGETHER as if one explained the other.
vpw taught some things (taken from others) that made sense when explained.
He then taught some other things (some he made up) that didn't make sense.
Since part seemed to make PERFECT sense, we trusted that anything we didn't
understand made sense and we just didn't see it.
(Or considered any error to be too small to matter, depending on the example.)
So, if you got healed under one ministry's umbrella, you might conclude that means
the ENTIRE MINISTRY-its curriculum, leadership and so on-was quality,
whereas it might only be the LOCALS that are quality.
That's what JB was talking about.
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dancing
thanks WW,
sometimes things are hard to put in words
good job
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T-Bone
...Or your dog is thinking, "Where did you learn to sweep, Sushi? Would you just give me that broom - I'll show you how it's done!"....I know - that's a little ridiculous - your dog might not even know your GSC name is Sushi.
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doojable
Why do we criticize TWI doctrine?
.......Because we can.....
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