Well, now if we believe galatians, people who did the things vpw did are *of the flesh* and will have *no inheritance in the kingdom of God*
Does not seem to be contingent on what they taught or believe...shrug but hey, that is just what the scriptures say....don`t let that interfere with what you want to think.
Whether *of the spirit* and of the *flesh* are synonimous with born again or not, I don`t know.
Being of the *flesh* would certainly preclude them from being a minister or christian leader in any form.
That's a good start Oldies... you've listed his WORKS...
What does Romans 10:9,10 say? (if we're going to use the TWI definition of 'how to get born again)...
Romans 10:9,10
9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Wierwille's HEART... where was it? ...you can only speculate, I can only speculate...
...as for what I'm smoking??? ...well, it sure isn't as potent as what you've been smoking for so long now!
Also, the people of the scriptures that are routinely trotted out as being *sinners* and therefor old vp wasn`t so bad after all....were without exception, body and soul man as we understand it. Judeans before the new birth was available, not Christain.
I would certainly expect someone who claimed to be Christian, an adopted son with access to God to behave much better than a judean servant of body and soul.
The thing about wierwille and his doctrines is that he made it ok to ignore everything that it means to be a Christian.
I think that what he taught was a counterfit form, if we are to believe the scriptures definitions.
Amazing…how we’ve gone from the manipulative nature of the selective teachings of TWI
Time and time again, discussions on this forum turn to "we were taught the Word in pfal" or "vpw taught this or that" or a host of other "truth-related" scenarios by the vpw-apologists. Yet, there is overwhelming evidence that there were DOUBLE STANDARDS everywhere. And further.............Selective Teachings were utilized to push forward agendas to advance the corporation...
To the issue side-stepping technique of selective debate
Well now at least we have something to debate!...
….Hmmmmmmm…there’s a striking similarity between the two – don’t yah think…
Well, now if we believe galatians, people who did the things vpw did are *of the flesh* and will have *no inheritance in the kingdom of God*
All human beings are *in the flesh* and *of the flesh*. But we also have holy spirit.
But if I believe Gal 5:19-21 and just that, and throw out everything else, yeah, Dr. Wierwille (and I suppose some of us as well) are going to hell and will not get to heaven and paradise.
But I would have to ignore great sections of scripture, some of which the following:
Romans 10:9 -- confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, believe in thy heart God raised him from the dead and "thou SHALT be saved".
It says "thou shalt be saved". For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ephesians 2:8,9: -- we are saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ. Not of works lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 1 -- God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies, chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, we are holy and without blame before him in love, predestinated us to be his children, accepted in the beloved, redemption thru his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, having obtained an inheritance, being predestinated, being sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is the token of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.
I John 1:9 -- God forgives sins.
*******************
I think the meaning of Gal 5:19-21 must be interpreted in a way that doesn't contradict the above.
TWI taught that Gal 5:19-21 means loss of rewards. I certainly do believe that. I do not doubt God's Grace working in lives of sinners.
*******************
Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus was getting ready to murder a few more Christians.
If we take Gal 5: 19-21 literally, he would have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Wierwille's HEART... where was it? ...you can only speculate, I can only speculate...
When it comes to salvation I don't speculate this point.
A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus Christ is the lord and savior and Messiah, doesn't doubt Roman's 10:9 and other scriptures about sonship.
He leads others to this rock-solid belief in God and Christ's gift of holy spirit and salvation, yet he himself doesn't believe it?
That's like Orville Reddenbahker not knowing what popcorn is.
God would have to withhold His gifts, grace and mercy from Wierwille and others.... something I don't believe.
Also, the people of the scriptures that are routinely trotted out as being *sinners* and therefor old vp wasn`t so bad after all....were without exception, body and soul man as we understand it. Judeans before the new birth was available, not Christain.
I would certainly expect someone who claimed to be Christian, an adopted son with access to God to behave much better than a judean servant of body and soul.
The bible describes the men who wrote the bible as "holy men of God".
I don't compare Wierwille to these men, but if we're talking sins, some of those men committed worse than Wierwille and they are called "holy men of God".
**************
A person's salvation is not based on their behavior, or good works.
It is based on GOD's GRACE which is BIGGER than MANS BEHAVIOR.
Oldies! This is just a bunch of speculative baloney! (my italics, and me in BOLD)
When it comes to salvation I don't speculate this point.
A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus Christ is the lord and savior and Messiah, doesn't doubt Roman's 10:9 and other scriptures about sonship.
This is purely speculation on your part. You don't KNOW. No one does.
So YOU can't say anything more than "you believe he was"... which is exactly what I can say or speculate (the other way of course)
He leads others to this rock-solid belief in God and Christ's gift of holy spirit and salvation, yet he himself doesn't believe it?
The world is filled with con-artists that don't believe a word of what they're saying/selling BUT want you to believe it lock, stock and barrel.
That's like Orville Reddenbahker not knowing what popcorn is.
Nope. Orville Reddenbacher (I looked on the package for the spelling) is selling a tangible product... not "salvation".
God would have to withhold His gifts, grace and mercy from Wierwille and others.... something I don't believe.
No he wouldn't, not if they believed in their heart... you just don't know for sure that he did... and his actions speak much more loudly to his motivation than his salvation...
This is an argument you cannot prove Oldies... sorry about that... it just is... you can feel it and think it but you can't prove it...
That's all there is to it... sorry to burst your bubble.
But not the topic of salvation and getting born again, which is what we are debating now.
I beg your pardon Oldies... what we're (you and I) are debating is whether or not Wierwille was "born again"... my only argument (and the only one I need BTW) is that about "believing in his heart"... which you cannot argue because YOU DON'T KNOW... the only heart YOU KNOW about is your own...
You keep speaking about his actions, his works... which have nothing to do with whether or not he was "born again" (we can agree on that can't we?)...
As I said... his actions speak more to his motivation than his salvation...
Oldies, You mischaracterized that section in galatians entirely.
It didn`t say *all human beings are of the flesh* That is a lie. It says that Those who commit the acts that wierwille did are *of the flesh* and *have no inheritance in the kingdom of God*..
It said those that manifested the fruit of the spirit...were OF the spirit.
Two different types of human kind, to be identified by their actions or *fruit*
You were taught to ignore the evidence of the fruit that Jesus Christ himself said would dentify us to one another by a man who didn`t want his fruit examined too darned carefully.
His doctrines, the ones you keep quoting from consistantly steer people away from the scriptures that would have clearly identified him as the imposter that he was.
False prophets are clever, else nobody would fall for their counterfit doctrine.
the thing that came to my mind is that the sinners in the good book ie soloman david etc all repented thier sin i don't know if corn field vic did
I really don't know either, but if Wierwille or anyone else is born again, he received God's gift of holy spirit, he already has eternal life, sealed with holy spirit. The fact that he didn't confess his sins before his death wouldn't matter.
The religion of my youth taught that. That's a Roman Catholic teaching and if you are of that belief then I understand where you're coming from. But I believe differently now.
I can't prove that God exists either; but this is a debate about opinions and beliefs.
On the topic of salvation, I don't speculate.
What this really is, I think, is a debate and argument about what scriptures one really believes.
Let me refresh your short term memory Oldies...
A Christian is one who is saved, born again, with Christ in Him / Her the Hope of Glory, via God's Grace and belief in Christ ( Roman's 10:9 ).
Christianity is about what God has wrought thru Christ, not about man's good character.
Yet you continue to list veepee's works (a man's actions are an indication of his character)
And so did Dr. Wierwille, many, many times.
And your point is?
Come on T-Bone, wheres the beef?
If you say Wierwille wasn't born again, at least we have something to argue about. :)
See... right there... this isn't "a debate about opinions and beliefs" ...it's an argument about whether or not veepee was "born again"...
oh, and you also said "On the topic of salvation, I don't speculate"... yet here you are speculating about veepee's salvation... because it is impossible for you to know his heart...
Anyway, so I took you up on your "argue" offer...
I'll bite on that one Oldies... (you knew I would)...
I am closer to the opinion that HE WASN'T BORN AGAIN than I am that he was and simply erred... I'm thinking he was closer to being born of the wrong seed than the right one...
How's that? ...have at it!
and... I'm guessing... because you cannot possibly KNOW what was in veepee's HEART you want to continue to cite his works and quote comparative scripture WHEN THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE NOR THE CRITERIA...
You can disagree with me, you can speculate that he was born again... but you don't KNOW... neither do I, but I'm just as 'right' as you are if I speculate aren't I?
It appears as though, according to OM-logic, the alcoholic father who abuses his children is a good father because he "tells" them NOT to do what he does.
Thanks for helping me see the (il)logic so clearly, Mr. Strange.
It appears as though, according to OM-logic, the alcoholic father who abuses his children is a good father because he "tells" them NOT to do what he does.
Thanks for helping me see the (il)logic so clearly, Mr. Strange.
And as a Christian leader, he would be a success if he teaches his children
plenty of good Sunday School and Bible every Sunday without fail.
His beating-them-to-a-bloody-pulp Mon-Fri at times, of course, are simply
expressions of his "flesh".
Since, years later, his children are able to recite whole passages of Scripture
and their meanings, in English AND Greek,
he obviously was a success as a Christian leader with them,
because they DID learn some Good Bible.
The flashbacks and facial twitches they still have, well, bringing them up only
speaks to the negatives in his life. Are we supposed to speak of his negatives?
After all, he taught them some Good Bible!
After all, none of us are perfect. And his imperfections causing lifelong damage
I beg your pardon Oldies... what we're (you and I) are debating is whether or not Wierwille was "born again"... my only argument (and the only one I need BTW) is that about "believing in his heart"... which you cannot argue because YOU DON'T KNOW... the only heart YOU KNOW about is your own...
We know what was in Wierwilles heart by what he taught and said, both positive and negative.
By the fruit, if you will.
He and you and me are not saved by works, but when we look at a persons life and see what comes out of their mouth, their works, what they did; what they are devoted to,;; it demonstrates whats on the inside.
He also spoke in tongues...
Isn't that why you believe Wierwille was a monster because of his evil works?
BTW, I believe he was wrong about SIT being the only way to "really know" a person is saved.
Oldies, You mischaracterized that section in galatians entirely.
It didn`t say *all human beings are of the flesh* That is a lie. It says that Those who commit the acts that wierwille did are *of the flesh* and *have no inheritance in the kingdom of God*..
It said those that manifested the fruit of the spirit...were OF the spirit.
Two different types of human kind, to be identified by their actions or *fruit* ...
I went back and read Galatians and it doesn't say what you describe.
It talks about "the works of the flesh" and "fruit of the spirit".
But it doesn't characterize people as "of the flesh" or "of the spirit" in those verses.
Since we Christians are made up of both flesh and spirit, we do (or are capable of) doing the works of both.
OM... IF you can use his "good works" as an indication of "what's on the inside" THEN I can use his "bad works" as an indication of "what's on the inside"...
WORKS DON'T COUNT, you know this...
You just have to admit that YOU THINK he was "born again", you cannot prove it, and you can list his works from here to kingdom come... and it still won't prove it.
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rascal
Well, now if we believe galatians, people who did the things vpw did are *of the flesh* and will have *no inheritance in the kingdom of God*
Does not seem to be contingent on what they taught or believe...shrug but hey, that is just what the scriptures say....don`t let that interfere with what you want to think.
Whether *of the spirit* and of the *flesh* are synonimous with born again or not, I don`t know.
Being of the *flesh* would certainly preclude them from being a minister or christian leader in any form.
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Tom Strange
That's a good start Oldies... you've listed his WORKS...
What does Romans 10:9,10 say? (if we're going to use the TWI definition of 'how to get born again)...
Romans 10:9,10
9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Wierwille's HEART... where was it? ...you can only speculate, I can only speculate...
...as for what I'm smoking??? ...well, it sure isn't as potent as what you've been smoking for so long now!
Edited by Tom StrangeLink to comment
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rascal
Also, the people of the scriptures that are routinely trotted out as being *sinners* and therefor old vp wasn`t so bad after all....were without exception, body and soul man as we understand it. Judeans before the new birth was available, not Christain.
I would certainly expect someone who claimed to be Christian, an adopted son with access to God to behave much better than a judean servant of body and soul.
The thing about wierwille and his doctrines is that he made it ok to ignore everything that it means to be a Christian.
I think that what he taught was a counterfit form, if we are to believe the scriptures definitions.
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T-Bone
Amazing…how we’ve gone from the manipulative nature of the selective teachings of TWI
To the issue side-stepping technique of selective debate
….Hmmmmmmm…there’s a striking similarity between the two – don’t yah think…
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
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oldiesman
All human beings are *in the flesh* and *of the flesh*. But we also have holy spirit.
But if I believe Gal 5:19-21 and just that, and throw out everything else, yeah, Dr. Wierwille (and I suppose some of us as well) are going to hell and will not get to heaven and paradise.
But I would have to ignore great sections of scripture, some of which the following:
Romans 10:9 -- confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, believe in thy heart God raised him from the dead and "thou SHALT be saved".
It says "thou shalt be saved". For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ephesians 2:8,9: -- we are saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ. Not of works lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 1 -- God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies, chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, we are holy and without blame before him in love, predestinated us to be his children, accepted in the beloved, redemption thru his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, having obtained an inheritance, being predestinated, being sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is the token of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.
I John 1:9 -- God forgives sins.
*******************
I think the meaning of Gal 5:19-21 must be interpreted in a way that doesn't contradict the above.
TWI taught that Gal 5:19-21 means loss of rewards. I certainly do believe that. I do not doubt God's Grace working in lives of sinners.
*******************
Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus was getting ready to murder a few more Christians.
If we take Gal 5: 19-21 literally, he would have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Jesus never would have appeared.
No grace and mercy.
No forgiveness.
The party's over.
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skyrider
I'll add my comments in bold type. :)
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oldiesman
When it comes to salvation I don't speculate this point.
A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus Christ is the lord and savior and Messiah, doesn't doubt Roman's 10:9 and other scriptures about sonship.
He leads others to this rock-solid belief in God and Christ's gift of holy spirit and salvation, yet he himself doesn't believe it?
That's like Orville Reddenbahker not knowing what popcorn is.
God would have to withhold His gifts, grace and mercy from Wierwille and others.... something I don't believe.
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oldiesman
The bible describes the men who wrote the bible as "holy men of God".
I don't compare Wierwille to these men, but if we're talking sins, some of those men committed worse than Wierwille and they are called "holy men of God".
**************
A person's salvation is not based on their behavior, or good works.
It is based on GOD's GRACE which is BIGGER than MANS BEHAVIOR.
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Tom Strange
Oldies! This is just a bunch of speculative baloney! (my italics, and me in BOLD)
This is an argument you cannot prove Oldies... sorry about that... it just is... you can feel it and think it but you can't prove it...
That's all there is to it... sorry to burst your bubble.
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oldiesman
But not the topic of salvation and getting born again, which is what we are debating now.
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coolchef
the thing that came to my mind is that the sinners in the good book ie soloman david etc all repented thier sin i don't know if corn field vic did
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Tom Strange
I beg your pardon Oldies... what we're (you and I) are debating is whether or not Wierwille was "born again"... my only argument (and the only one I need BTW) is that about "believing in his heart"... which you cannot argue because YOU DON'T KNOW... the only heart YOU KNOW about is your own...
You keep speaking about his actions, his works... which have nothing to do with whether or not he was "born again" (we can agree on that can't we?)...
As I said... his actions speak more to his motivation than his salvation...
Edited by Tom StrangeLink to comment
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rascal
Oldies, You mischaracterized that section in galatians entirely.
It didn`t say *all human beings are of the flesh* That is a lie. It says that Those who commit the acts that wierwille did are *of the flesh* and *have no inheritance in the kingdom of God*..
It said those that manifested the fruit of the spirit...were OF the spirit.
Two different types of human kind, to be identified by their actions or *fruit*
You were taught to ignore the evidence of the fruit that Jesus Christ himself said would dentify us to one another by a man who didn`t want his fruit examined too darned carefully.
His doctrines, the ones you keep quoting from consistantly steer people away from the scriptures that would have clearly identified him as the imposter that he was.
False prophets are clever, else nobody would fall for their counterfit doctrine.
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oldiesman
I can't prove that God exists either; but this is a debate about opinions and beliefs.
On the topic of salvation, I don't speculate.
What this really is, I think, is a debate and argument about what scriptures one really believes.
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rascal
or choses to ignore...
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oldiesman
I really don't know either, but if Wierwille or anyone else is born again, he received God's gift of holy spirit, he already has eternal life, sealed with holy spirit. The fact that he didn't confess his sins before his death wouldn't matter.
The religion of my youth taught that. That's a Roman Catholic teaching and if you are of that belief then I understand where you're coming from. But I believe differently now.
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rascal
Oh and BTW Oldies, really good to see you again, you were missed. :)
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Tom Strange
Let me refresh your short term memory Oldies...
Yet you continue to list veepee's works (a man's actions are an indication of his character)
See... right there... this isn't "a debate about opinions and beliefs" ...it's an argument about whether or not veepee was "born again"...
oh, and you also said "On the topic of salvation, I don't speculate"... yet here you are speculating about veepee's salvation... because it is impossible for you to know his heart...
Anyway, so I took you up on your "argue" offer...
and... I'm guessing... because you cannot possibly KNOW what was in veepee's HEART you want to continue to cite his works and quote comparative scripture WHEN THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE NOR THE CRITERIA...
You can disagree with me, you can speculate that he was born again... but you don't KNOW... neither do I, but I'm just as 'right' as you are if I speculate aren't I?
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Tom Strange
GOTCHA!
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Belle
It appears as though, according to OM-logic, the alcoholic father who abuses his children is a good father because he "tells" them NOT to do what he does.
Thanks for helping me see the (il)logic so clearly, Mr. Strange.
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WordWolf
And as a Christian leader, he would be a success if he teaches his children
plenty of good Sunday School and Bible every Sunday without fail.
His beating-them-to-a-bloody-pulp Mon-Fri at times, of course, are simply
expressions of his "flesh".
Since, years later, his children are able to recite whole passages of Scripture
and their meanings, in English AND Greek,
he obviously was a success as a Christian leader with them,
because they DID learn some Good Bible.
The flashbacks and facial twitches they still have, well, bringing them up only
speaks to the negatives in his life. Are we supposed to speak of his negatives?
After all, he taught them some Good Bible!
After all, none of us are perfect. And his imperfections causing lifelong damage
to some people, well, what does that matter?
After all, he taught them some Good Bible!
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oldiesman
We know what was in Wierwilles heart by what he taught and said, both positive and negative.
By the fruit, if you will.
He and you and me are not saved by works, but when we look at a persons life and see what comes out of their mouth, their works, what they did; what they are devoted to,;; it demonstrates whats on the inside.
He also spoke in tongues...
Isn't that why you believe Wierwille was a monster because of his evil works?
BTW, I believe he was wrong about SIT being the only way to "really know" a person is saved.
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oldiesman
I went back and read Galatians and it doesn't say what you describe.
It talks about "the works of the flesh" and "fruit of the spirit".
But it doesn't characterize people as "of the flesh" or "of the spirit" in those verses.
Since we Christians are made up of both flesh and spirit, we do (or are capable of) doing the works of both.
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Tom Strange
OM... IF you can use his "good works" as an indication of "what's on the inside" THEN I can use his "bad works" as an indication of "what's on the inside"...
WORKS DON'T COUNT, you know this...
You just have to admit that YOU THINK he was "born again", you cannot prove it, and you can list his works from here to kingdom come... and it still won't prove it.
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