Ain't it true, Jonny! Hotter'n' a firecracker and twice as read! Tom, I'll put out extra cookies on the "Amazing" thread later, they're sure to run out! OLM's, be ready to love!
Dooj's got it, alright! Now we're steaming, full bore! If Bliss has anything in red, we're set!
Are you kidding me?? I mean really this looks like script I know we can call the movie
The Exorcism of Elizabeth Lynn, doesn't that have a nice ring to it. The point of prophecy from God is there must be profit. From what I could tell there was none, and sorry if you do drugs you gonna see things. What premise do we saying that devils would be ugly, who do you think created them. They were angels before the fall. This person was most likely higher than kite when she did her so called "Prophecy". So all we need is a producer, the catholic church and some popcorn and we will be set.
Posting formerly as wwjesuslaughat, I posted several times about the direction CES was taking and it was not a good one from what I saw when I was involved. I could see the takeover evolving when Mark became president and especially after he stayed as president after JAL's "one year" stepdown. I think JAL should have resumed his role at that time, but for reasons only known to them, Mark stayed as president.
I saw firsthand how the Graesers as a couple were wielding more and more power, particularly with women's conferences and KA. There is usually not a well-thought out plan of action with those two. (kind of the George Bush of cults). Mark is very spontaneous in decision making and generally expects others to fall in line with his visions and ideas and just make them happen, unless there is opposition to them. When he wanted to rename the ministry, there was not much interest in it from regular believers, but he hounded and campaigned for "his" choice until most people gave in to shut him up.
While the network of fellowships is still fairly loose, I think that sooner or later the reins would tighten and some request for a percentage of tithing or giving would be made. If Mark stays in, I'm almost sure that will happen. The "code of conduct" is just the beginning.
I did attend several CES conferences over a 5 year period and was involved in personal prophecy, both giving and receiving. For me, what I said to others in personal prophecy was an intuition, inspired utterance maybe, but nothing I would have called "heavy revvy". To the best of my knowledge, I never gave prophecy of anything along the lines of the prophecies I have read about Elizabeth. I also never took any prophecies to heart and acted on them alone. It looked to me like a number of people regarded them as the "Christian Psychic Network" and I wholeheartedly agree with others here who have said God won't tell anyone else anything that He doesn't tell you first. The prophecies I have read here are way beyond anything I every heard of.
Interestingly, one of the best teachings I heard during that time about finding your Godly calling was done by KA. She said basically to just do the work that you feel led to, and God will open doors to move in different directions. That was a comfort to me at that time, since it seemed like so many people were wondering, "What's my gift? What's my calling? What's my ministry?" I could relax after that and do the things I naturally gravitated to. A year or so later, when KA tried to give me a prophecy about a prophetic music ministry, (one that would have involved some sort of singing prophecy), I told her that I had not received any word or inclination toward that at all, and reminded her of her own teaching. She didn't press the issue, but I think at that time she realized that I would not be easily manipulated and moved on.
Someone said that they felt badly for people who have been very hurt and betrayed by this group. I know there are some, and they even extend to families of leadership. I can't imagine what Elizabeth has gone through, but it sound like she has taken some very healthy steps to heal. I think the more people were involved with giving a lot of money or uprooting their family to move to Indy, the greater the loss.
Me, I left much earlier and with eyes open to the danger sooner.
I can report (vaguely at this point) that good things happened yesterday. I will encourage the recipients of the good to post or provide permission to post. But the bad stuff put up here on GS has led to people's eyes being opened.
Ain't it true, Jonny! Hotter'n' a firecracker and twice as read! Tom, I'll put out extra cookies on the "Amazing" thread later, they're sure to run out! OLM's, be ready to love!
Dooj's got it, alright! Now we're steaming, full bore! If Bliss has anything in red, we're set!
I have also heard that the pressure coming from those that are e-mailing is getting some good results.
Please let YOUR voice be heard!!!!!
I know these three are doing a lot of work to get to the root of this mess.
John Lynn - JALCES@aol.com
John Schoenhiet - john@stfonline.org
Dan Gallagher - dan@stfonline.org
The current President said he will not step down even though the Majority of the Board has asked him to. The next legal elections are not until Jan 15th. But what is the right (moral) thing to do? Why wait until the elections if this has gone on under his watch?
Do you agree with his decision?
You can e-mail him at:
Mark@stfonline.org
There will be much more to come....please stay posted....
Ain't it true, Jonny! Hotter'n' a firecracker and twice as read! Tom, I'll put out extra cookies on the "Amazing" thread later, they're sure to run out! OLM's, be ready to love!
Dooj's got it, alright! Now we're steaming, full bore! If Bliss has anything in red, we're set!
What did I get? Can I wear it? Or do I serve it with ..........
CHEESECAKE!
OK, I'll be nice.. I just had a momentary lapse of reason. I dont' mean to make light of the situation but when it gets heavy in here we all need to laugh and let loose.
Ex10 - I'll dance on the tables with ya! Get some men folk and we'll two-step. Heck turn up any music and I'll dance!
if i may add my voice to the choir: THESE PEOPLE ARE NUTS!
it's a shame, and i feel bad, but i can't say i'm surprised. i was involved in the forerunner to CES (american fellowship services?), and had a part in drawing up the original bylaws for that group. that process was all i needed to see; i was gone before the ink was dry.
i've known JAL a long time, and i love the guy, and it breaks my heart that he's so without root in himself that he's been led down this path.
my unsolicited advice to current STFers: wake up! get out! it can't be "fixed," 'cause it's way beyond broken.
(it ain't so bad on the outside, by the way. actually, i kinda like it out here!)
I have also heard that the pressure coming from those that are e-mailing is getting some good results.
Please let YOUR voice be heard!!!!!
I know these three are doing a lot of work to get to the root of this mess.
John Lynn - JALCES@aol.com
John Schoenhiet - john@stfonline.org
Dan Gallagher - dan@stfonline.org
Jeff, with all due respect... from everything I've read here...
HOW ARE THESE THREE GOING TO GET TO THE ROOT OF THIS MESS???
FROM WHAT I'VE READ HERE, THEY'RE COMPLICIT IN ALL OF THIS... THEY DIDN'T STOP IT!
THERE HASN'T BEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN HERE THAT SAYS THEY DID ANYTHING EXCEPT GO ALONG WITH IT!
IMO they should "get to the bottom of this mess" by joining the Graeser's in stepping down... period.
They've used up their 'leadership chances' for a while (at least)...
I don't understand, I really don't understand, why I keep getting the sense that CES/STFI folks think all will be well if the Graeser's step down... From what I've read, they were all in on it!!! How can there be any trust left in those three? They're part of the problem as well if you ask me. They may be great teachers. They may be great researchers. They may be great whatever. But the fact is they were 'on the inside' and let this crap go on...
Again, with all due respect, how can you possibly say something alluding that they're "going to fix this mess"???
That's just nuts, IMO, even if you want to cut them the greatest amount of slack ever... and claim that they didn't agree with it but didn't know how to stop it...
Well, what kind of excuse it that? What should that tell you? They're not fit (or worthy) to be entrusted with the responsibility.
THEY LET IT HAPPEN! ...haven't you been reading the same things I have?
I thought I'd post this here as well... it seems that in these "groups" we all seemed to be stricken with a bad case of "gotta-be-right-us"... (the need to never be wrong)... I think what Rich (or Crispy) said:
The most important doctrines are the two great commandments. If it takes all day to fulfil those two, then we just start over again in the morning on just those two, and ask God and Jesus for what is sufficient for today. Keep living this way until we understand a little bit about the sermon on the mount.
...I think what Richncrispy are saying ties in with what socks was saying in his suggestion to "find a local church... I think it's all about the heart... and I think that's why churches (most of them) are good at this... the churches pastors are more 'caretakers of folks' for the most part... helping organize, tending to needs, etc than all fired up to make it their main purpose in life being right...
They (the right churches) provide a place where folks can serve their fellow man in whatever way they see fit... it takes a lot for us to get rid of the gotta-be-right-us attitude that was drummed into our heads as the only way to walk... funny, I don't remember any accounts of Jesus walking that way...
...I also think part of our (all of us) reluctance to seek out or attend a church is because of the negatives about churches pounded into us in TWI and offshoots...
We had it pounded into us to seek our answers and guidance from them... when all along the answer has always been in our own heart, right where God put it...
Trust is earned....and a lot of trust has been broken.
I (we who care about CES / Spirit & Truth) will have to wait and see how this all plays out. After all, I was part of the problem as well since I was on staff for 6 1/2 years as the shipping guy and then as the office manager.
I know my hands are not clean but I have gone before the Lord and repented. I am sick by thinking about the part I had to play in the whole Elizabeth thing.
[edited by modcat5]
I have been spending a lot of time as of late with John Schoenheit and Dan Gallagher. I am also in contact with John Lynn.
I wish it did not have to come to this but I am praying it will make CES / Spirit & Truth a much stronger ministry. We have some amazing Partners that are helping us reach out all over the planet with some much needed clear Bible teaching via the TruthOrTradition.com site.
This area of the prophetic needs to be aggressively looked at and brought under control and it is being looked at.....that is part of the reason why there is a huge split on the Board. Keep in mind Tom Resner (a Board member) is also head of the Prophetic Council. The split is Mark and Tom against John S. Dan G. and the Theisens.
However, getting to the root of all this has not been easy when Karen Ann is the current Presidents wife and all of this has been "slow cooking" for such a long period of time. It is now out in the open....let's see what happens.....
I was blind....but now I see....God forgive me!
Blessing to ya!
And please, e-mail away.....!
Jeff
p.s I do go to a local church (not connected to CES / Spirit & Truth)...and have been in a Baptist church for five years when I was stationed in North Dakota. We also go to the church (when not going to a church in Indianapolis) that John Schoenhiet has on Camp Vision in Bloomington, IN every Sunday - and it is AMAZING!
At the time I did not think that there was undo pressure. The marriage was a mess.....
Looking back and reading over all the info I have, I now know that Karen Ann really wanted the divorce to happen and that the dreams played a big part in making that happen. Karen Ann had a huge falling out with Elizabeth. This was before she found out that Mark had kissed her then best friend.
I will let you ask John Lynn - JALCES@aol.com - how much Karen Ann factored into his decision to divorce Elizabeth.
I can say that Karen Ann has had a HUGE say in the running of CES / Spirit & Truth. She is a very out spoken and driven women. Her husband, Mark, is much softer spoken. She can be VERY pushy with her prophetic read on things.....
The common law says a man or woman has the inherent right to defend themselves when attacked.
However when the Knicks and the Nuggets had an on court NBA brawl recently the commissioner suspended everyone involved whether they struck first or second. NBA special rules.
So to say someone was not all innocent still begs several questions now unanswered.
It would be nice to think that people would not retaliate when attacked. I find I know of almost no-one in my entire 51 years capable of such restraint. A few would leave and withdraw completely, but hurt. It is our instinct. The sermon on the mount goes against our physical instincts. Those commandments or suggestions must be spiritual in nature and I would imagine it takes some work to get close to actually living them.
I imagine an environment where the constant pressure, the constant twisting of my words, the constant accusations disguised as helping me to clarify my values and improve me, would wear me down and cause me to look at demon infested people and tell them to just STFU. In the name of Jesus Christ of course.
Momentus and Personal Prophecy have now combined in a one two punch, sorta like peanut butter and chocolate combined to become a Reese's Cup. Reese's PooPoo Smearing Cup! Hard slick mometus cliches on the outside! Thick gooey personal prophecy attacks on the inside. And "we" have decided it's your turn, whether you decide you want it or not! And the aroma? Roasted in the pit of hell for that unforgettable poopaccino smell.
Hurry up and buy them fast during this holiday season as it seems some have finally caught on to us and they may be pulled from the market soon!!
In case you get this on your skin or in your hair, just wash in the blood of the lamb - it is guaranteed to remove the deepest stains and wash away that ugly smell. Available via Repentance. Just call Jesus, open 24/7 always in stock! If you've been selling these junk bars, just apply with Jesus for the same cleansing treatment but act fast before your conscience is seared!
... Nonetheless, Elizabeth's letter is presented in the context of an organization exerting its influence in God's name. [Edited by modcat5]
If I were still contributing financially to STFI/CES and felt they owed me some accountability for their stewardship, perhaps I would write to John and ask about the influence exerted by KAG. As it stands, I do not contribute, and John Lynn owes me no such explanation.
I really think JAL should give you a letter to post, as I posted Elizabeth's letter, rather than insert your self into it. All Elizabeth wanted was an answer from John. When it was ignored and she had no recourse within CES, she went to the greater church. And I see this as an avenue to the greater church.
As I mentioned earlier, in my opinion (and again, I'm only speaking for myself), it appears Elizabeth wants her letter to John to be made public regardless of the personal content because it exposes corruption at the top levels of STFI/CES. I do not see any parallel reason to post Elizabeth's shortcomings or any other possible reasons for the Lynns' divorce. It's their business, not the church's.
After the King of Nineveh (who was facilitating and presiding over wickedness) obeyed God, God didn't dethrone him.
Why are you so quick to throw them down?
Don't you believe in God's mercy and forgiveness?
Well... for one, because I'm not God and have no foreknowledge of whether or not they can be entrusted with the stewardship again... and two, because I am human, and having trusted them once (twice?) with stewardship and them not being able to handle it, I'd not be willing to trust them so quickly again... and three, also being human, I'd look back on the lesson I was supposed to have learned from TWI only getting rid of one and letting the others stay on to "lead"... how's that working out?
JEFF: I'm with Raf and the others. Please quit posting (even more) personal stuff. This isn't about their marriage. This is about this unGodly practice of 'prophetic council' and dream weaving... (the fact that it played a part in the ending of their marriage is sad, but incidental) ...
That's why I ask you: How can you continue to trust these folks? Isn't there a lesson to be learned?
I don't care if John L, John S, or Dan or the Theisens were my blood relatives and best friends... I'd still love them... BUT... if I was truly looking out for what was best for God's people, I'd want them to step away from those roles... at least for awhile if not forever. They are just as complicit (IMO) as the Graeser's in all of this. They've shown an ability to be influenced in the wrong direction... that's not a good resume.
Exactly, and that's Raf's point (I think) and mine, too. I've tried to leave the personal out of all of this. It doesn't matter (at least in the context of the doctrinal error of CES/STFI).
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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socks
Ain't it true, Jonny! Hotter'n' a firecracker and twice as read! Tom, I'll put out extra cookies on the "Amazing" thread later, they're sure to run out! OLM's, be ready to love!
Dooj's got it, alright! Now we're steaming, full bore! If Bliss has anything in red, we're set!
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Belle
:( We have to keep our shoes on? :(
I've never gotten in trouble for that before... :unsure: For putting my gum under the counter - yes, but for sitting at the counter barefoot - never.
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ex10
Belle,
I gotta an extra pair of flipflops I'll toss ya. ;)
Can we dance on the TABLE? If somebody turns the jukebox up really loud?
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ckmkeon
Are you kidding me?? I mean really this looks like script I know we can call the movie
The Exorcism of Elizabeth Lynn, doesn't that have a nice ring to it. The point of prophecy from God is there must be profit. From what I could tell there was none, and sorry if you do drugs you gonna see things. What premise do we saying that devils would be ugly, who do you think created them. They were angels before the fall. This person was most likely higher than kite when she did her so called "Prophecy". So all we need is a producer, the catholic church and some popcorn and we will be set.
CK
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batcave
Posting formerly as wwjesuslaughat, I posted several times about the direction CES was taking and it was not a good one from what I saw when I was involved. I could see the takeover evolving when Mark became president and especially after he stayed as president after JAL's "one year" stepdown. I think JAL should have resumed his role at that time, but for reasons only known to them, Mark stayed as president.
I saw firsthand how the Graesers as a couple were wielding more and more power, particularly with women's conferences and KA. There is usually not a well-thought out plan of action with those two. (kind of the George Bush of cults). Mark is very spontaneous in decision making and generally expects others to fall in line with his visions and ideas and just make them happen, unless there is opposition to them. When he wanted to rename the ministry, there was not much interest in it from regular believers, but he hounded and campaigned for "his" choice until most people gave in to shut him up.
While the network of fellowships is still fairly loose, I think that sooner or later the reins would tighten and some request for a percentage of tithing or giving would be made. If Mark stays in, I'm almost sure that will happen. The "code of conduct" is just the beginning.
I did attend several CES conferences over a 5 year period and was involved in personal prophecy, both giving and receiving. For me, what I said to others in personal prophecy was an intuition, inspired utterance maybe, but nothing I would have called "heavy revvy". To the best of my knowledge, I never gave prophecy of anything along the lines of the prophecies I have read about Elizabeth. I also never took any prophecies to heart and acted on them alone. It looked to me like a number of people regarded them as the "Christian Psychic Network" and I wholeheartedly agree with others here who have said God won't tell anyone else anything that He doesn't tell you first. The prophecies I have read here are way beyond anything I every heard of.
Interestingly, one of the best teachings I heard during that time about finding your Godly calling was done by KA. She said basically to just do the work that you feel led to, and God will open doors to move in different directions. That was a comfort to me at that time, since it seemed like so many people were wondering, "What's my gift? What's my calling? What's my ministry?" I could relax after that and do the things I naturally gravitated to. A year or so later, when KA tried to give me a prophecy about a prophetic music ministry, (one that would have involved some sort of singing prophecy), I told her that I had not received any word or inclination toward that at all, and reminded her of her own teaching. She didn't press the issue, but I think at that time she realized that I would not be easily manipulated and moved on.
Someone said that they felt badly for people who have been very hurt and betrayed by this group. I know there are some, and they even extend to families of leadership. I can't imagine what Elizabeth has gone through, but it sound like she has taken some very healthy steps to heal. I think the more people were involved with giving a lot of money or uprooting their family to move to Indy, the greater the loss.
Me, I left much earlier and with eyes open to the danger sooner.
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richnchrispy
I can report (vaguely at this point) that good things happened yesterday. I will encourage the recipients of the good to post or provide permission to post. But the bad stuff put up here on GS has led to people's eyes being opened.
Richard
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bliss
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Jeff USAF RET
I have also heard that the pressure coming from those that are e-mailing is getting some good results.
Please let YOUR voice be heard!!!!!
I know these three are doing a lot of work to get to the root of this mess.
John Lynn - JALCES@aol.com
John Schoenhiet - john@stfonline.org
Dan Gallagher - dan@stfonline.org
The current President said he will not step down even though the Majority of the Board has asked him to. The next legal elections are not until Jan 15th. But what is the right (moral) thing to do? Why wait until the elections if this has gone on under his watch?
Do you agree with his decision?
You can e-mail him at:
Mark@stfonline.org
There will be much more to come....please stay posted....
Jeff
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doojable
What did I get? Can I wear it? Or do I serve it with ..........
CHEESECAKE!
OK, I'll be nice.. I just had a momentary lapse of reason. I dont' mean to make light of the situation but when it gets heavy in here we all need to laugh and let loose.
Ex10 - I'll dance on the tables with ya! Get some men folk and we'll two-step. Heck turn up any music and I'll dance!
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sprawled out
if i may add my voice to the choir: THESE PEOPLE ARE NUTS!
it's a shame, and i feel bad, but i can't say i'm surprised. i was involved in the forerunner to CES (american fellowship services?), and had a part in drawing up the original bylaws for that group. that process was all i needed to see; i was gone before the ink was dry.
i've known JAL a long time, and i love the guy, and it breaks my heart that he's so without root in himself that he's been led down this path.
my unsolicited advice to current STFers: wake up! get out! it can't be "fixed," 'cause it's way beyond broken.
(it ain't so bad on the outside, by the way. actually, i kinda like it out here!)
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Tom Strange
Jeff, with all due respect... from everything I've read here...
HOW ARE THESE THREE GOING TO GET TO THE ROOT OF THIS MESS???
FROM WHAT I'VE READ HERE, THEY'RE COMPLICIT IN ALL OF THIS... THEY DIDN'T STOP IT!
THERE HASN'T BEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN HERE THAT SAYS THEY DID ANYTHING EXCEPT GO ALONG WITH IT!
IMO they should "get to the bottom of this mess" by joining the Graeser's in stepping down... period.
They've used up their 'leadership chances' for a while (at least)...
I don't understand, I really don't understand, why I keep getting the sense that CES/STFI folks think all will be well if the Graeser's step down... From what I've read, they were all in on it!!! How can there be any trust left in those three? They're part of the problem as well if you ask me. They may be great teachers. They may be great researchers. They may be great whatever. But the fact is they were 'on the inside' and let this crap go on...
Again, with all due respect, how can you possibly say something alluding that they're "going to fix this mess"???
That's just nuts, IMO, even if you want to cut them the greatest amount of slack ever... and claim that they didn't agree with it but didn't know how to stop it...
Well, what kind of excuse it that? What should that tell you? They're not fit (or worthy) to be entrusted with the responsibility.
THEY LET IT HAPPEN! ...haven't you been reading the same things I have?
I thought I'd post this here as well... it seems that in these "groups" we all seemed to be stricken with a bad case of "gotta-be-right-us"... (the need to never be wrong)... I think what Rich (or Crispy) said:
...I think what Richncrispy are saying ties in with what socks was saying in his suggestion to "find a local church... I think it's all about the heart... and I think that's why churches (most of them) are good at this... the churches pastors are more 'caretakers of folks' for the most part... helping organize, tending to needs, etc than all fired up to make it their main purpose in life being right...
They (the right churches) provide a place where folks can serve their fellow man in whatever way they see fit... it takes a lot for us to get rid of the gotta-be-right-us attitude that was drummed into our heads as the only way to walk... funny, I don't remember any accounts of Jesus walking that way...
...I also think part of our (all of us) reluctance to seek out or attend a church is because of the negatives about churches pounded into us in TWI and offshoots...
We had it pounded into us to seek our answers and guidance from them... when all along the answer has always been in our own heart, right where God put it...
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oldiesman
This may be an inapplicable crude example, but it crossed my mind:
God told Jonah to go to Ninevah and tell them the city will be destroyed because of their wicked ways.
Jonah finally arrived, and told them what God said.
The people of Ninevah believed God, and changed their ways, and the city was spared.
Then Jonah was angry that the city wasn't destroyed as had been planned.
Ha!
Guess he wasn't ready for God's mercy.
***********************
Let's see what happens here. If they repent and change, they deserve to be forgiven.
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ex10
They might be "deserving" of forgiveness Oldies. But to be entrusted with the care of others is another matter entirely.
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Tom Strange
yeah... that's what I was trying to say ex10... you say it better...
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oldiesman
After the King of Nineveh (who was facilitating and presiding over wickedness) obeyed God, God didn't dethrone him.
Why are you so quick to throw them down?
Don't you believe in God's mercy and forgiveness?
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Jeff USAF RET
Trust is earned....and a lot of trust has been broken.
I (we who care about CES / Spirit & Truth) will have to wait and see how this all plays out. After all, I was part of the problem as well since I was on staff for 6 1/2 years as the shipping guy and then as the office manager.
I know my hands are not clean but I have gone before the Lord and repented. I am sick by thinking about the part I had to play in the whole Elizabeth thing.
[edited by modcat5]
I have been spending a lot of time as of late with John Schoenheit and Dan Gallagher. I am also in contact with John Lynn.
I wish it did not have to come to this but I am praying it will make CES / Spirit & Truth a much stronger ministry. We have some amazing Partners that are helping us reach out all over the planet with some much needed clear Bible teaching via the TruthOrTradition.com site.
This area of the prophetic needs to be aggressively looked at and brought under control and it is being looked at.....that is part of the reason why there is a huge split on the Board. Keep in mind Tom Resner (a Board member) is also head of the Prophetic Council. The split is Mark and Tom against John S. Dan G. and the Theisens.
However, getting to the root of all this has not been easy when Karen Ann is the current Presidents wife and all of this has been "slow cooking" for such a long period of time. It is now out in the open....let's see what happens.....
I was blind....but now I see....God forgive me!
Blessing to ya!
And please, e-mail away.....!
Jeff
p.s I do go to a local church (not connected to CES / Spirit & Truth)...and have been in a Baptist church for five years when I was stationed in North Dakota. We also go to the church (when not going to a church in Indianapolis) that John Schoenhiet has on Camp Vision in Bloomington, IN every Sunday - and it is AMAZING!
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Jeff USAF RET
At the time I did not think that there was undo pressure. The marriage was a mess.....
Looking back and reading over all the info I have, I now know that Karen Ann really wanted the divorce to happen and that the dreams played a big part in making that happen. Karen Ann had a huge falling out with Elizabeth. This was before she found out that Mark had kissed her then best friend.
I will let you ask John Lynn - JALCES@aol.com - how much Karen Ann factored into his decision to divorce Elizabeth.
I can say that Karen Ann has had a HUGE say in the running of CES / Spirit & Truth. She is a very out spoken and driven women. Her husband, Mark, is much softer spoken. She can be VERY pushy with her prophetic read on things.....
Hope this helps...
Jeff
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richnchrispy
The common law says a man or woman has the inherent right to defend themselves when attacked.
However when the Knicks and the Nuggets had an on court NBA brawl recently the commissioner suspended everyone involved whether they struck first or second. NBA special rules.
So to say someone was not all innocent still begs several questions now unanswered.
It would be nice to think that people would not retaliate when attacked. I find I know of almost no-one in my entire 51 years capable of such restraint. A few would leave and withdraw completely, but hurt. It is our instinct. The sermon on the mount goes against our physical instincts. Those commandments or suggestions must be spiritual in nature and I would imagine it takes some work to get close to actually living them.
I imagine an environment where the constant pressure, the constant twisting of my words, the constant accusations disguised as helping me to clarify my values and improve me, would wear me down and cause me to look at demon infested people and tell them to just STFU. In the name of Jesus Christ of course.
Momentus and Personal Prophecy have now combined in a one two punch, sorta like peanut butter and chocolate combined to become a Reese's Cup. Reese's PooPoo Smearing Cup! Hard slick mometus cliches on the outside! Thick gooey personal prophecy attacks on the inside. And "we" have decided it's your turn, whether you decide you want it or not! And the aroma? Roasted in the pit of hell for that unforgettable poopaccino smell.
Hurry up and buy them fast during this holiday season as it seems some have finally caught on to us and they may be pulled from the market soon!!
In case you get this on your skin or in your hair, just wash in the blood of the lamb - it is guaranteed to remove the deepest stains and wash away that ugly smell. Available via Repentance. Just call Jesus, open 24/7 always in stock! If you've been selling these junk bars, just apply with Jesus for the same cleansing treatment but act fast before your conscience is seared!
The Richard half of the dynamic duo
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Raf
[Edited by modcat5]
... Nonetheless, Elizabeth's letter is presented in the context of an organization exerting its influence in God's name. [Edited by modcat5]
If I were still contributing financially to STFI/CES and felt they owed me some accountability for their stewardship, perhaps I would write to John and ask about the influence exerted by KAG. As it stands, I do not contribute, and John Lynn owes me no such explanation.
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Captain Crunch
Jeff-
I really think JAL should give you a letter to post, as I posted Elizabeth's letter, rather than insert your self into it. All Elizabeth wanted was an answer from John. When it was ignored and she had no recourse within CES, she went to the greater church. And I see this as an avenue to the greater church.
CC
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Raf
As I mentioned earlier, in my opinion (and again, I'm only speaking for myself), it appears Elizabeth wants her letter to John to be made public regardless of the personal content because it exposes corruption at the top levels of STFI/CES. I do not see any parallel reason to post Elizabeth's shortcomings or any other possible reasons for the Lynns' divorce. It's their business, not the church's.
Anyway, that's my nickel. Keep the change.
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Tom Strange
Well... for one, because I'm not God and have no foreknowledge of whether or not they can be entrusted with the stewardship again... and two, because I am human, and having trusted them once (twice?) with stewardship and them not being able to handle it, I'd not be willing to trust them so quickly again... and three, also being human, I'd look back on the lesson I was supposed to have learned from TWI only getting rid of one and letting the others stay on to "lead"... how's that working out?
JEFF: I'm with Raf and the others. Please quit posting (even more) personal stuff. This isn't about their marriage. This is about this unGodly practice of 'prophetic council' and dream weaving... (the fact that it played a part in the ending of their marriage is sad, but incidental) ...
That's why I ask you: How can you continue to trust these folks? Isn't there a lesson to be learned?
I don't care if John L, John S, or Dan or the Theisens were my blood relatives and best friends... I'd still love them... BUT... if I was truly looking out for what was best for God's people, I'd want them to step away from those roles... at least for awhile if not forever. They are just as complicit (IMO) as the Graeser's in all of this. They've shown an ability to be influenced in the wrong direction... that's not a good resume.
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Jeff USAF RET
He does have a letter that went out that detailed a lot of things.
I will not ask him to post it and I will not post it.
It will take us wayyyy off topic.....they have been divorced for years now.
But thanks for asking.....
Jeff
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Tom Strange
Exactly, and that's Raf's point (I think) and mine, too. I've tried to leave the personal out of all of this. It doesn't matter (at least in the context of the doctrinal error of CES/STFI).
Edited by Tom StrangeLink to comment
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