One of the definitions of insanity is trying te same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
JAL has been confronted by people closer to him who know him better than I do. He's also been warned about personal prophecy. His answer, consistently, is, "we have this book..."
I was a telemarketer once, but I had to actually call people to try to pitch things to them. If you think I'm going to make a call so that the recipient of the call can try to sell me a book, you're nuts.
In 1998 JAL received more than one personal prophecy about his intimate life from KA. (it's been going on a long time) Right after that there was a CES leadership meeting in which she taught about personal prophecy...and talked about who you should or should not give personal prophecy to...one was to someone that was a very close friend, spouse, child etc.
Interesting...this is taught by other ministries using pp as well.
Here is the letter from the clergy siding with Mark Graeser and the Dec 11th letter from Mark stating he will not step down. These were sent out before John's christmas letter above.
I think Elizabeth's letter in the pinned thread called "The Facts" is still the clearest explanation of what is going on.
Ok, I admit to having a total headache over all this mess. The thing I have a problem with, is debating someone's character over what they write on the Internet, for Pete's sake.
Making judgements about one's character with just reading stuff posted on the Internet by other people, is a misnomer. How the heck can anybody get a halfway balanced view, by just reading what other people post? about other people? I promise you, what has been said that John Lynn has said here, is NOT the total picture. Yeah, I know he wrote a letter. Said letter is not ALL he has said about he subject. Duh.....
And before anybody starts accusing me of being a JAL defender, hey, I'm not. I just have common sense, and believe that there are many sides to every story, and the truth is not readily evident.
If I've been friends with someone for uh, like 30 years, I promise you, I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and talk to them personally before I make any judgements about their life, "ministry," character, whatever.
I hope anybody that knows me in real life would do the same.
I've known jal since 1978 (yeah...I know...earlier I said 1977...not a lie...just old timer's). Not closely as in a friendship, but close enough that he made decisions about my life and marriage on more than one occasion...close enough that we have had many telephone, email and chat room conversations...close enough that he invited himself into my home many, many times (NEVER let him in)...close enough.
I don't base anything I say/think/feel about jal on what has been posted here. It's personal experience with me.
Gotta tell ya...
What is seen here is pretty much all there is to jal...imo...from my experiences over the last 28 years with him...
I'm trying to weigh what you say here, but there are some things that make these more than just "Internet postings."
These are letters designed for public consumption, almost pleading with their readers to exercise sound judgment. I doubt highly that they want to deal with hundreds and hundreds of phone calls from people around the country. I am sure they want their words to speak for themselves.
What their words are telling me as that there is a PROFOUND level of immaturity at the highest levels of CES/STFI, and it ALL gets traced back to the error in practice, and probably doctrine, of personal prophecy. One need read only a few pages of these documents to come to the inescapable conclusion that the ministry has been overtaken by otitis externa.
2 Tim 4:3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.
The fact that MG wants the prophetic input to be considered as they go forward is just the icing on the cake, here. And it's a bad tasting cake.
To anyone on that board who's reading: when it comes to the prophetic, you've BLOWN IT. You will NOT be able to fix it without abandoning a practice that you clearly do not understand as well as you think you do. Don't believe me? LOOK AT THE FRUIT!
"The Titanic struck an iceberg on its maiden voyage and sank to the bottom of the Atlantic in April 1912" isn't the whole story either, but it still tells you quite a bit.
I apologize for bringing up Titanic in that the analogies that come to mind are profound and (hopefully) premature. I only meant to say that the more facts you have, the better, but it's not always necessary to have every minute detail of fact in order to draw a conclusion that serious errors have been made. E.J. Smith was a profoundly good captain. He was experienced, brilliant, the most prized captain in the White Star line.
And yet, most bios you read about him open the exact same way.
One lousy bad voyage, and his legacy is marred.
May the leaders of CES/STFI live out a different fate.
I see the letter from the clergy (written by Mark?) refers to him as "the spiritual leader of this church."
Have you people learned nothing?
CHRIST is the spiritual leader of the church! Mark is the titular leader of an organization that's supposed to be dedicated to SERVING the church.
What their words are telling me as that there is a PROFOUND level of immaturity at the highest levels of CES/STFI, and it ALL gets traced back to the error in practice, and probably doctrine, of personal prophecy.
Well said, and yet I disagree. I think the doctrine and/or practice of personal prophecy is definitely bad, but there are more problems than that. It is the level of intimacy that has existed among the BOD/Leadership in this group sounds as if it borders on incest. It is highly improbable such a group could make an objective decision that was in the best interest of the ministry as a whole. Particularly, if that decision has the potential to hurt or offend one of the leaders. Heck, even their attorney had to resign because of a conflict of interest on a personal level!
Structurally, there appears to be no specific set rules or guidelines (at least none that are consistently followed) regarding which group (clergy, BOD, prophetic council, president) gets to make decisions about what.
Then there is the high level of meddling within each other's personal lives (and no way am I buying that prophesies regarding each other are godly, remotely objective, or without some agenda of personal gain), which amounts to some very serious and far reaching boundary hopping. How far down the chain this boundary hopping has gone, only those within CES could know - but it is certainly going on within the leadership ranks and will ultimately trickle down to the rest of the people as well.
It is TWI all over again. The names and locations have been changed to protect the guilty, but the story is the same.
I'm sure I could say more, but I have a life away from this place too, and it is time for me to attend to it.
By the way, pages 12-28 of this document contain detailed prophetic images and their interpretations.
And another 10 pages on prophets and prophecy, clearly intended to establish the authority of the prophetic images that are set forth.
It is among the most self-serving documents I have ever read, and I've covered criminal trials.
God told me, God showed me, Mark is a pilot of a jumboJet. he's David. He's Job. He's...
How CONVENIENT this document must be.
Abigail, I understand what you're saying. I simply think the prophetic has given these guys an unparalleled outlet for the immature behavior we can all see. They even have a built-in defense of it (I'm not kidding).
"it was noted that there has been a prophetic theme that has pointed to a demonic assault on Karen Anne to shut down her voice."
Well, No Shugar, Sherlock! it took God to tell you that people were going to stand up to this silliness? Dude, I cancelled my involvement in CES just for the privilege of not having to hear her voice coming out of my tape player anymore. That wasn't demonic of me; it was necessary for my vehicle maintenance! If I'd heard her refer to herself as a prophetess one more time I'd have rammed my car into a tree.
But congratulations on coming up with visions and dreams that would insulate you against the criticism of this meddling, SELF-APPOINTED prophet. That way, when someone complains, "Hey, I can't find any Biblical justification for the utter nonsense that's taking place here," you can respond, "Wow! She predicted this would happen! You're of the devil." You've headed off dissent at the pass. You've made it impossible to disagree with her. You've made it impossible for her to be wrong! You've killed free thinking and reasoned dissent. Congratulations. You've returned to New knoxville.
CES/STFI: You people are behaving like a bunch of spoiled children. Worse, you're behaving like a bunch of highly skilled manipulators.
And to think, you issued tapes on respecting boundaries. Remember that?
Let's see: who are the most reliable prophets in the CESpool? (thank you to whoever came up with that: I can't remember who).
Ah, here it is, p. 11:
"Tier One: Mature, ordained prophets in good standing with a track record for giving accurate prophecies that extends back at least ten years. Only Tom, Susan and Karen Anne are in this category..."
I think JAL's ex would disagree with KA's self-evaluation that she is a first-tier prophet "with a track record for giving accurate prophecies that extends back at least ten years."
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Raf
One of the definitions of insanity is trying te same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
JAL has been confronted by people closer to him who know him better than I do. He's also been warned about personal prophecy. His answer, consistently, is, "we have this book..."
I was a telemarketer once, but I had to actually call people to try to pitch things to them. If you think I'm going to make a call so that the recipient of the call can try to sell me a book, you're nuts.
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onefinecustom
In 1998 JAL received more than one personal prophecy about his intimate life from KA. (it's been going on a long time) Right after that there was a CES leadership meeting in which she taught about personal prophecy...and talked about who you should or should not give personal prophecy to...one was to someone that was a very close friend, spouse, child etc.
Interesting...this is taught by other ministries using pp as well.
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Captain Crunch
Here is the letter from the clergy siding with Mark Graeser and the Dec 11th letter from Mark stating he will not step down. These were sent out before John's christmas letter above.
I think Elizabeth's letter in the pinned thread called "The Facts" is still the clearest explanation of what is going on.
2006_12_10_STF_Clergy_Meeting_Report.pdf
2006_12_11_MG_Response_to_Leave__final.pdf
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Raf
Wow. Wow.
After reading this, I am convinced that CES/STFI is a waste of my time and energy.
The Lost Boys are going to elect a new Peter Pan, are they? Well, they'll have leadership all right. But they won't have maturity.
CES/STFI: A Non-Prophet Organization.
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ex10
Ok, I admit to having a total headache over all this mess. The thing I have a problem with, is debating someone's character over what they write on the Internet, for Pete's sake.
Making judgements about one's character with just reading stuff posted on the Internet by other people, is a misnomer. How the heck can anybody get a halfway balanced view, by just reading what other people post? about other people? I promise you, what has been said that John Lynn has said here, is NOT the total picture. Yeah, I know he wrote a letter. Said letter is not ALL he has said about he subject. Duh.....
And before anybody starts accusing me of being a JAL defender, hey, I'm not. I just have common sense, and believe that there are many sides to every story, and the truth is not readily evident.
If I've been friends with someone for uh, like 30 years, I promise you, I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and talk to them personally before I make any judgements about their life, "ministry," character, whatever.
I hope anybody that knows me in real life would do the same.
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Raf
"The board's escalating criticism and focus on our marriage has become hurtful and intrusive."
Umm, YA THINK?
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ex10
not the whole story, I'm pretty dang sure.....
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CoolWaters
I've known jal since 1978 (yeah...I know...earlier I said 1977...not a lie...just old timer's). Not closely as in a friendship, but close enough that he made decisions about my life and marriage on more than one occasion...close enough that we have had many telephone, email and chat room conversations...close enough that he invited himself into my home many, many times (NEVER let him in)...close enough.
I don't base anything I say/think/feel about jal on what has been posted here. It's personal experience with me.
Gotta tell ya...
What is seen here is pretty much all there is to jal...imo...from my experiences over the last 28 years with him...
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Ham
I would only add- for a VERY LONG TIME.
They've been at this nonsense for YEARS.
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watersedge
can someone (anyone) show me from the bible that personal prophecy
is in god's plan?
since when did a prophet or prophetess gain that ability?
if it's there please show me
i need when to blow out my candles and do laundry
go shopping and gas up..........please tell me
wow a pocket prophet for each soul
what a concept, tell me and i will do it
sounds almost like "tom-tom"
a spiritual navigation system
totally commited to each soul's "benefit"
do they sell for $$$ or sense?
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Raf
Ex10,
I'm trying to weigh what you say here, but there are some things that make these more than just "Internet postings."
These are letters designed for public consumption, almost pleading with their readers to exercise sound judgment. I doubt highly that they want to deal with hundreds and hundreds of phone calls from people around the country. I am sure they want their words to speak for themselves.
What their words are telling me as that there is a PROFOUND level of immaturity at the highest levels of CES/STFI, and it ALL gets traced back to the error in practice, and probably doctrine, of personal prophecy. One need read only a few pages of these documents to come to the inescapable conclusion that the ministry has been overtaken by otitis externa.
2 Tim 4:3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.
The fact that MG wants the prophetic input to be considered as they go forward is just the icing on the cake, here. And it's a bad tasting cake.
To anyone on that board who's reading: when it comes to the prophetic, you've BLOWN IT. You will NOT be able to fix it without abandoning a practice that you clearly do not understand as well as you think you do. Don't believe me? LOOK AT THE FRUIT!
I've seen the fruit. I ain't buying the seeds.
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Raf
Agreed, it's not the whole story.
"The Titanic struck an iceberg on its maiden voyage and sank to the bottom of the Atlantic in April 1912" isn't the whole story either, but it still tells you quite a bit.
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ex10
Raf,
Point well taken, and appreciated.
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Raf
As was yours.
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Cynic
IMO, Elizabeth and “Captain Crunch” have probably done to CES/STFI’s religious reproductive abilities what Paul Allen did to TWI’s.
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GarthP2000
... and the prophetic words spoken at that time were:
"Oh yes sir, the ship will sink!"
Hmmmm, musta been a true prophet, as what he said came to pass. :blink:
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Raf
I apologize for bringing up Titanic in that the analogies that come to mind are profound and (hopefully) premature. I only meant to say that the more facts you have, the better, but it's not always necessary to have every minute detail of fact in order to draw a conclusion that serious errors have been made. E.J. Smith was a profoundly good captain. He was experienced, brilliant, the most prized captain in the White Star line.
And yet, most bios you read about him open the exact same way.
One lousy bad voyage, and his legacy is marred.
May the leaders of CES/STFI live out a different fate.
I see the letter from the clergy (written by Mark?) refers to him as "the spiritual leader of this church."
Have you people learned nothing?
CHRIST is the spiritual leader of the church! Mark is the titular leader of an organization that's supposed to be dedicated to SERVING the church.
Dangit!
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Abigail
Well said, and yet I disagree. I think the doctrine and/or practice of personal prophecy is definitely bad, but there are more problems than that. It is the level of intimacy that has existed among the BOD/Leadership in this group sounds as if it borders on incest. It is highly improbable such a group could make an objective decision that was in the best interest of the ministry as a whole. Particularly, if that decision has the potential to hurt or offend one of the leaders. Heck, even their attorney had to resign because of a conflict of interest on a personal level!
Structurally, there appears to be no specific set rules or guidelines (at least none that are consistently followed) regarding which group (clergy, BOD, prophetic council, president) gets to make decisions about what.
Then there is the high level of meddling within each other's personal lives (and no way am I buying that prophesies regarding each other are godly, remotely objective, or without some agenda of personal gain), which amounts to some very serious and far reaching boundary hopping. How far down the chain this boundary hopping has gone, only those within CES could know - but it is certainly going on within the leadership ranks and will ultimately trickle down to the rest of the people as well.
It is TWI all over again. The names and locations have been changed to protect the guilty, but the story is the same.
I'm sure I could say more, but I have a life away from this place too, and it is time for me to attend to it.
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ex10
Too bad we can't call "do overs."
It has been brought to my attention, (by people I know and love) that I posted without knowing all the facts, that have been posted. Sorry for that.
Can I get a "do over?" here?
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Raf
Well, I don't think you crossed any lines or said anything inappropriate, but okay!
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therebutforgrace
I agree with Raf, ex10.
Post on!
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Raf
By the way, pages 12-28 of this document contain detailed prophetic images and their interpretations.
And another 10 pages on prophets and prophecy, clearly intended to establish the authority of the prophetic images that are set forth.
It is among the most self-serving documents I have ever read, and I've covered criminal trials.
God told me, God showed me, Mark is a pilot of a jumboJet. he's David. He's Job. He's...
How CONVENIENT this document must be.
Abigail, I understand what you're saying. I simply think the prophetic has given these guys an unparalleled outlet for the immature behavior we can all see. They even have a built-in defense of it (I'm not kidding).
"it was noted that there has been a prophetic theme that has pointed to a demonic assault on Karen Anne to shut down her voice."
Well, No Shugar, Sherlock! it took God to tell you that people were going to stand up to this silliness? Dude, I cancelled my involvement in CES just for the privilege of not having to hear her voice coming out of my tape player anymore. That wasn't demonic of me; it was necessary for my vehicle maintenance! If I'd heard her refer to herself as a prophetess one more time I'd have rammed my car into a tree.
But congratulations on coming up with visions and dreams that would insulate you against the criticism of this meddling, SELF-APPOINTED prophet. That way, when someone complains, "Hey, I can't find any Biblical justification for the utter nonsense that's taking place here," you can respond, "Wow! She predicted this would happen! You're of the devil." You've headed off dissent at the pass. You've made it impossible to disagree with her. You've made it impossible for her to be wrong! You've killed free thinking and reasoned dissent. Congratulations. You've returned to New knoxville.
CES/STFI: You people are behaving like a bunch of spoiled children. Worse, you're behaving like a bunch of highly skilled manipulators.
And to think, you issued tapes on respecting boundaries. Remember that?
You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
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Raf
Let's see: who are the most reliable prophets in the CESpool? (thank you to whoever came up with that: I can't remember who).
Ah, here it is, p. 11:
"Tier One: Mature, ordained prophets in good standing with a track record for giving accurate prophecies that extends back at least ten years. Only Tom, Susan and Karen Anne are in this category..."
How danged convenient!
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shazdancer
I think JAL's ex would disagree with KA's self-evaluation that she is a first-tier prophet "with a track record for giving accurate prophecies that extends back at least ten years."
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