IMO putting it on GS has value - although it's opening up all kinds of private personal things to the world, most of which is like me, not involved. Doing that and assumes something - that there's a good that will come from it. Trust me, I could have gone a long time without knowing anything about any of this, y'know? I can see some benefits already -
--- those that are involved have a means of letting CES participants outside the immediate circle know more of an 'inside' story on what's going on and their concern.
--- those involved now or from the past have a place to discuss it amongst themselves (with input from anyone else reading of course)
--- a lot of varied and diverse views and opinions, ideas and suggestions, both critical and supportive.
--- venting, and release of tension and pressure through expression.
The last is important. Steam has to go somewhere. It's not enough to tell a pot that's boiling to stop. Action has to be taken to direct that energy or it'll boil over. The average person is, I think, perfectly willing to act honorably. Shutting people out or down makes it hard for them to do that.
And, you ar right. Sorry. I guess I was just thinking that these people involved with the STFI are there simply because they WANT to be there. And, they are getting what is "on the plate" so to speak. Getting what comes along when one puts oneself in the position that they have. But maybe some of them do not know that there are Nose Spiders wainting for them in the night. I guess when I think of people being "hurt" I think of people in Somalia, Dahrfur, Iraq and South Texas.
But, I spose our insights here are good for those interested in leaving the STFI, and this is a good place to discuss it. Sorry. Maybe the reason so many ExWays want to jump in here and help out so much is because while in TWI, they couldn't help out while In.
I can't speak for everybody, but I think we got pretty much what we expected- a self-righteous, pontificating, self-serving (if not personally, at least as the organization is concerned) five page "letter"- and now won't see him for dust.
Along with one last jab- "I'm so great, buy my book".
Leaders in ministries where followers are expected to obey and change their ways according to leadership directives--those leaders should be held up under a bright light.
I know ex wafers that are still dazzled by the MOG doctrine--and JL is their MOG.How many followers practice the non thought aspects I saw and practiced while in TWI? Don't think anything negative, don't be critical of the MOG or the Ministry. Even questioning the doctrine is NOT OF GOD! NO, you need to buy the book and study more, so you too can understand.
A sweet--' we're taking care of this problem with weeping hearts' letter just lulls them all back into non thought. All is well, trust us, we have the Word...you have nothing to be concerned about, buy my book..
GS shakes it up, and some of those critical and sharp posts just might penetrate the fog....and save someone from having to live by spider-in-nose dreams.
.....the reason I [JAL] remain totally committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the “package” we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it, as well as the liberating impact it has had on people
Standing from a distance.......I share no "glee" in seeing CES's demise.
But.....as an ex-clergyman of twi and knowing JAL, JS, MG and KAG from my corps days......I see GLARING similarities of twi-manipulation/exploitation that spur me, as a watchman, to warn the people of an approaching enemy.
Like another poster stated, "the package of pfal" was offered to us as well as, seemingly, the starting point of all truth. From this ill-centered premise of pfal, spun the doctrines of men that swallowed the grace of God and turned it into a lie that devastated the lives of countless followers. So why is it.......that CES now has "the package" and while many focus on packaged goods, behind the scenes there are dream or personal prophesies, devilish prophesies, that spiritually slice one open like a knife fight in a dark alley?
My viewpoint does not center on personal issues, marital issues, inter-office working issues, etc.........BUT RATHER on embracing "the package of Jesus Christ" and the simplicity that is in Christ and therein eschewing ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL (ie. personal prophecies, dream interpretations, momentus bedfellows, deceivers and seducers, etc.).
The Scriptures [Acts 15] unfold a blueprint for handling dissention in the Church..........Men of God, certain witnesses, church leadership, elders and apostles are present. Note: It is NOT an inner circle of leaders or staff members that hashes out the grievances and buries the evidence.
May CES leadership abide in the Word and DO the Word.....to resolve these conflicts and doctrines. And,
my prayer is.......that these devilish doctrines of preconceived, personal prophesy be uprooted and burned in the fire of God's power and grace.
When the cult books were put out pre 1986 ... I read them whenever I could find them. For every one good point, they seemed to overstate or just make up some really major points (e.g. I knew "Hunter Safety" was not paramilitary training). I didn't believe all the sex stuff then, but it turns out that was more true than I knew.
But now instead of a few books and articles, we have the internet with hundreds of people to discuss point by point the details of these type organizations. This is a good thing, but I can see how CES type groups would not want outsiders judging their actions. But many "outsiders" here are very well informed and even involved, and have some very "cult free" thinking to offer.
Actually, this whole mess may be my fault. When John visited Paul in NOLA about 1988, I hung with those two a little after the fellowship, (where I felt John was explaining away his culpability in the twi mess ... "well, I guess I probably could have figured out it was wrong" ) Anyway, JAL was talking about his venture into comedy club stuff I think ... (remember that long bit about the pick off at first?) Well, I felt strongly like saying "John, get away from doing this same old Bible guru thing and go live life ... you are too full of the whole cult mentality to be suddenly pure" ... or something like that. Anyway, I missed sharing that personal prophecy for you ... sorry about that!
But I didn't have any spiders or snakes in my personal prophecy, so it was probably just good sense. And I would bet plenty of others spoke up along the way, no doubt all discounted as messengers of darkness, trying to "take you out". Anyway, good luck with that SAT thing ... you still playing full court?
Im not gleeful, what goes around comes around tho.
hey this is attractive to me maybe because it has been a long trip in this world of twi and ces.
and yes i do wonder why and what would have been different if i had not gone to the gazebo that day a ong time ago.
anyway.
I want to read Marks letter about why he cant step down.
probably didnt give permission to post it on the internet.
John Lynn's thing is "No fear" Well what are you afraid of John? not being able to control the conversaion and having to hear negatives about something ? sounds like fear to me.
No glee here, simply a confirmation that concerns were valid.
John Lynn still excuses the prophesies and his part in the destruction of other people....
I don`t see him honest yet, just still frantically trying to re wrap his doctrin/ministry package to make it platable.
A couragious man would acknowledge that the dream prophesy/momentus was crap, rather than blame it all on a few peoples misapplication of supposedly otherwise sound practice...
A couragious man would be able to set aside his *package* after seeing the destruction wrought and start all over again trusting that God could build a new and solid foundation, rather than the previous shifting sand.
It still seems to be all about preserving his *package* shrug
Edited to add: Oh and I am still non plussed that WE are unworthy of dialogue. We are people, regardless of our internet handles, and are of value.
Geeze .... Do you not think that God knows who/what rascal is? What her heart is? Let him be the judge of whether or not I am worthy, or whether my input is of value, not you...alright Mr. Lynn?
Maybe a dissenting opinion would be of value rather than someone who tells you simply what YOU believe that you would like to hear.
That crap about not talking to anonymous internet users is just a convenient excuse to not have to get honest with yourself or others...shrug.
What a bunch of devilish prophetic drival.............. It's so disappointing to see any ministry keep Jesus Christ from his entitled position.
Shame on CES. They want to learn more of the Word? Keep it simple, life is to be simple. God commits his Word to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also. I think they have lost the ability to teach anyone by their bickering and bs.
What a bunch of devilish prophetic drival.............. It's so disappointing to see any ministry keep Jesus Christ from his entitled position.
Shame on CES. They want to learn more of the Word? Keep it simple, life is to be simple. God commits his Word to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also. I think they have lost the ability to teach anyone by their bickering and bs.
:(
I'd simplify it... it's all just DRIVEL.
Good f'ing grief. Yeah, I think JAL long ago lost the ability to find a constructive role in life.
Indeed, 20 years later and it's still pretty much the same as the Way Cult was, as far as the interaction of the people involved. And that's an incredibly long time to live while making only small, "tweeking" changes to anything from the prior 20 years.
I would hope after being around the same block (twice!!), that they may finally wake up, smell the coffee, take an honest look ( I wont be holding my breath on that one) and shut it down, then do their personal searching elsewhere realizing that they have spent the greater parts of their lives plowing a road to nowhere.
Indeed, 20 years later and it's still pretty much the same as the Way Cult was, as far as the interaction of the people involved. And that's an incredibly long time to live while making only small, "tweeking" changes to anything from the prior 20 years.
1977, NY State, Easter weekend (I know...that's not what it was called in twi...but I forget what it was called...something like Resurrection Sunday...?), NY limb meeting...JAL...teaching "If you don't fold, you can't lose"...twi magazine...that teaching on the cover...right?
John Lynn still excuses the prophesies and his part in the destruction of other people....
I don`t see him honest yet, just still frantically trying to re wrap his doctrin/ministry package to make it platable.
It still seems to be all about preserving his *package* shrug
Edited to add: Oh and I am still non plussed that WE are unworthy of dialogue. We are people, regardless of our internet handles, and are of value.
A few thoughts and then I'll go back to my corner..
JAL is always about JAL. Funny that even when he is trying to make a "full disclosure" he is stll covering his a$$.
Preserving his "package?" LOL now I have coffee all over my keyboard! I'd like to see "his Package" preserved in a ball glass jar filled with formaldehyde. (OK Not really !) You gotta admit tho, there are probably a lot of folks that would like to see something hysterically evil done with any package that has JAL's name attached to it.
Oh about now wanting to talk to "screen names" He probably wants to make sure that he's not talking to someone that can sue is sorry a$$.
Ok - now i'm done. Maybe I should stay away for a bit longer next time.
Would someone please post a link to where I can find out about personal prophesy.
I was in the sixth corp and JAL was really after my time. I don't know the guy or CES since I was Marked and Avoided before that was a cool thing to be.
(Aside)If anyone is interested I was Marked and Avoided in 1982 because I bought a house and refused a Corp assignment to go WOW for the 5th time.
So not having any experience with Lynn or the CES I would like to know about the "Personal Prophesy" thing. Can I do it? Should I do it? Does God want me to do it?
Here let me try: "Yea, verily I say today JAL is going down and will bale before the end".
The letter from John Lynn is an interesting study, no doubt. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I would guess it is a great example of denial and how denial effects one's ability to think critically.
That being said, JAL isn't CES. JAL doesn't even have an official position with CES anymore, to my knowledge and understanding. Just like TWI's problems continue, despite the change in leadership (removing the front man be retaining those who covered for him), CES's problems will continue, even if the latest front man "MG" is removed from power.
It goes back to structural problems, doctrinal problems, a lack of checks and balances.
Here's something else I was thinking of. JAL made reference to what great friends all the BOD members once were, and some still are. My experience and opinion tell me that having a BOD that consists of best buddies is rarely going to be good for an organization. Human nature is such that if "Joe" comes up with a really bad idea, the others are less inclined to vote against him because they don't want to hurt or offend their friend. Likewise, the are less likely to even look critically at the idea, because they assume their wonderful friend would not be capable of coming up with a really really bad idea.
Better to have a BOD that is made up of a group of individuals who respect each other, but have no overly strong emotional ties or emotional dependence upon one another.
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excathedra
as a board member, i would have fired myself and then karen anne when the name STFI was chosen
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excathedra
oh and john lynn, i am ashamed that you would let that horrible stuff go on concerning your wife
you treat the church like a bride too ?
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Ham
Hmmm. I wonder..
Elections coming up in January..
I wonder if he's leveraging for a comeback..
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J0nny Ling0
Socks told me:
And, you ar right. Sorry. I guess I was just thinking that these people involved with the STFI are there simply because they WANT to be there. And, they are getting what is "on the plate" so to speak. Getting what comes along when one puts oneself in the position that they have. But maybe some of them do not know that there are Nose Spiders wainting for them in the night. I guess when I think of people being "hurt" I think of people in Somalia, Dahrfur, Iraq and South Texas.
But, I spose our insights here are good for those interested in leaving the STFI, and this is a good place to discuss it. Sorry. Maybe the reason so many ExWays want to jump in here and help out so much is because while in TWI, they couldn't help out while In.
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Ham
Honestly, I don't see 23 pages of venting here.
I can't speak for everybody, but I think we got pretty much what we expected- a self-righteous, pontificating, self-serving (if not personally, at least as the organization is concerned) five page "letter"- and now won't see him for dust.
Along with one last jab- "I'm so great, buy my book".
Its EXACTLY what I expected.
what a waste of time..
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Bramble
Leaders in ministries where followers are expected to obey and change their ways according to leadership directives--those leaders should be held up under a bright light.
I know ex wafers that are still dazzled by the MOG doctrine--and JL is their MOG.How many followers practice the non thought aspects I saw and practiced while in TWI? Don't think anything negative, don't be critical of the MOG or the Ministry. Even questioning the doctrine is NOT OF GOD! NO, you need to buy the book and study more, so you too can understand.
A sweet--' we're taking care of this problem with weeping hearts' letter just lulls them all back into non thought. All is well, trust us, we have the Word...you have nothing to be concerned about, buy my book..
GS shakes it up, and some of those critical and sharp posts just might penetrate the fog....and save someone from having to live by spider-in-nose dreams.
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skyrider
Standing from a distance.......I share no "glee" in seeing CES's demise.
But.....as an ex-clergyman of twi and knowing JAL, JS, MG and KAG from my corps days......I see GLARING similarities of twi-manipulation/exploitation that spur me, as a watchman, to warn the people of an approaching enemy.
Like another poster stated, "the package of pfal" was offered to us as well as, seemingly, the starting point of all truth. From this ill-centered premise of pfal, spun the doctrines of men that swallowed the grace of God and turned it into a lie that devastated the lives of countless followers. So why is it.......that CES now has "the package" and while many focus on packaged goods, behind the scenes there are dream or personal prophesies, devilish prophesies, that spiritually slice one open like a knife fight in a dark alley?
My viewpoint does not center on personal issues, marital issues, inter-office working issues, etc.........BUT RATHER on embracing "the package of Jesus Christ" and the simplicity that is in Christ and therein eschewing ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL (ie. personal prophecies, dream interpretations, momentus bedfellows, deceivers and seducers, etc.).
The Scriptures [Acts 15] unfold a blueprint for handling dissention in the Church..........Men of God, certain witnesses, church leadership, elders and apostles are present. Note: It is NOT an inner circle of leaders or staff members that hashes out the grievances and buries the evidence.
May CES leadership abide in the Word and DO the Word.....to resolve these conflicts and doctrines. And,
my prayer is.......that these devilish doctrines of preconceived, personal prophesy be uprooted and burned in the fire of God's power and grace.
God bless.
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Ham
I think the main problem with a "package" is usually it comes with an "all or none" option.
Have to swallow it hook line and sinker..
no thanks.
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outofdafog
No "glee" here....
Just hate to see people being fed crap and told that it is chocolate ice cream...........
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rhino
When the cult books were put out pre 1986 ... I read them whenever I could find them. For every one good point, they seemed to overstate or just make up some really major points (e.g. I knew "Hunter Safety" was not paramilitary training). I didn't believe all the sex stuff then, but it turns out that was more true than I knew.
But now instead of a few books and articles, we have the internet with hundreds of people to discuss point by point the details of these type organizations. This is a good thing, but I can see how CES type groups would not want outsiders judging their actions. But many "outsiders" here are very well informed and even involved, and have some very "cult free" thinking to offer.
Actually, this whole mess may be my fault. When John visited Paul in NOLA about 1988, I hung with those two a little after the fellowship, (where I felt John was explaining away his culpability in the twi mess ... "well, I guess I probably could have figured out it was wrong"
) Anyway, JAL was talking about his venture into comedy club stuff I think ... (remember that long bit about the pick off at first?) Well, I felt strongly like saying "John, get away from doing this same old Bible guru thing and go live life ... you are too full of the whole cult mentality to be suddenly pure" ... or something like that. Anyway, I missed sharing that personal prophecy for you ... sorry about that!
But I didn't have any spiders or snakes in my personal prophecy, so it was probably just good sense. And I would bet plenty of others spoke up along the way, no doubt all discounted as messengers of darkness, trying to "take you out". Anyway, good luck with that SAT thing ... you still playing full court?
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Ham
At this point, I wonder if his survival depends on continued endorsement of the organization.
What's he gonna do if it folds?
Sell books?
I think he's painted himself in a corner of sorts..
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pond
Im not gleeful, what goes around comes around tho.
hey this is attractive to me maybe because it has been a long trip in this world of twi and ces.
and yes i do wonder why and what would have been different if i had not gone to the gazebo that day a ong time ago.
anyway.
I want to read Marks letter about why he cant step down.
probably didnt give permission to post it on the internet.
John Lynn's thing is "No fear" Well what are you afraid of John? not being able to control the conversaion and having to hear negatives about something ? sounds like fear to me.
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rascal
No glee here, simply a confirmation that concerns were valid.
John Lynn still excuses the prophesies and his part in the destruction of other people....
I don`t see him honest yet, just still frantically trying to re wrap his doctrin/ministry package to make it platable.
A couragious man would acknowledge that the dream prophesy/momentus was crap, rather than blame it all on a few peoples misapplication of supposedly otherwise sound practice...
A couragious man would be able to set aside his *package* after seeing the destruction wrought and start all over again trusting that God could build a new and solid foundation, rather than the previous shifting sand.
It still seems to be all about preserving his *package* shrug
Edited to add: Oh and I am still non plussed that WE are unworthy of dialogue. We are people, regardless of our internet handles, and are of value.
Geeze .... Do you not think that God knows who/what rascal is? What her heart is? Let him be the judge of whether or not I am worthy, or whether my input is of value, not you...alright Mr. Lynn?
Maybe a dissenting opinion would be of value rather than someone who tells you simply what YOU believe that you would like to hear.
That crap about not talking to anonymous internet users is just a convenient excuse to not have to get honest with yourself or others...shrug.
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Raf
I'm gleeful.
Primarily because I refuse to allow the goings on in Indianapolis to have an impact on my heart and life.
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1 john 3:1
What a bunch of devilish prophetic drival.............. It's so disappointing to see any ministry keep Jesus Christ from his entitled position.
Shame on CES. They want to learn more of the Word? Keep it simple, life is to be simple. God commits his Word to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also. I think they have lost the ability to teach anyone by their bickering and bs.
:(
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Rocky
I'd simplify it... it's all just DRIVEL.
Good f'ing grief. Yeah, I think JAL long ago lost the ability to find a constructive role in life.
Indeed, 20 years later and it's still pretty much the same as the Way Cult was, as far as the interaction of the people involved. And that's an incredibly long time to live while making only small, "tweeking" changes to anything from the prior 20 years.
Find a life. Then live it.
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waterbuffalo
Agreed.
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CoolWaters
I just remembered something from long ago...
1977, NY State, Easter weekend (I know...that's not what it was called in twi...but I forget what it was called...something like Resurrection Sunday...?), NY limb meeting...JAL...teaching "If you don't fold, you can't lose"...twi magazine...that teaching on the cover...right?
Just made me wonder if he's gonna fold or not...
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Steve Lortz
Nevermind...
Love,
Steve
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doojable
A few thoughts and then I'll go back to my corner..
JAL is always about JAL. Funny that even when he is trying to make a "full disclosure" he is stll covering his a$$.
Preserving his "package?" LOL now I have coffee all over my keyboard! I'd like to see "his Package" preserved in a ball glass jar filled with formaldehyde. (OK Not really !) You gotta admit tho, there are probably a lot of folks that would like to see something hysterically evil done with any package that has JAL's name attached to it.
Oh about now wanting to talk to "screen names" He probably wants to make sure that he's not talking to someone that can sue is sorry a$$.
Ok - now i'm done. Maybe I should stay away for a bit longer next time.
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griffp
Would someone please post a link to where I can find out about personal prophesy.
I was in the sixth corp and JAL was really after my time. I don't know the guy or CES since I was Marked and Avoided before that was a cool thing to be.
(Aside)If anyone is interested I was Marked and Avoided in 1982 because I bought a house and refused a Corp assignment to go WOW for the 5th time.
So not having any experience with Lynn or the CES I would like to know about the "Personal Prophesy" thing. Can I do it? Should I do it? Does God want me to do it?
Here let me try: "Yea, verily I say today JAL is going down and will bale before the end".
Is that the way it works. :)
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Abigail
The letter from John Lynn is an interesting study, no doubt. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I would guess it is a great example of denial and how denial effects one's ability to think critically.
That being said, JAL isn't CES. JAL doesn't even have an official position with CES anymore, to my knowledge and understanding. Just like TWI's problems continue, despite the change in leadership (removing the front man be retaining those who covered for him), CES's problems will continue, even if the latest front man "MG" is removed from power.
It goes back to structural problems, doctrinal problems, a lack of checks and balances.
Here's something else I was thinking of. JAL made reference to what great friends all the BOD members once were, and some still are. My experience and opinion tell me that having a BOD that consists of best buddies is rarely going to be good for an organization. Human nature is such that if "Joe" comes up with a really bad idea, the others are less inclined to vote against him because they don't want to hurt or offend their friend. Likewise, the are less likely to even look critically at the idea, because they assume their wonderful friend would not be capable of coming up with a really really bad idea.
Better to have a BOD that is made up of a group of individuals who respect each other, but have no overly strong emotional ties or emotional dependence upon one another.
Griff - you will find the letters HERE
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CoolWaters
LOL...dooj said his package in a ball glass...ROFLMAOPIMP...hehehe...
Snort
Sorry
Carry on
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