Is Jesus Christ God?

[HCW]

IS Jesus Christ God?

Nope.

At least that's my opinion on the matter.

My opinion is based on one simple fact.

I believe the Bible.

The Bible speaks very clearly on the topic in Acts where it gives account of the ONE human eye witness to the throne room, Steven. It says very clearly that he saw heaven opened and Jesus sitting at God's right hand side.

If Jesus were God, wouldn't he have seen the trinitarian creature, God, son & holy spirit?

Trust me. I've done thousands of hours of reading on the subject from every angle.

That's my personal conclusion. Which, simply put is this:

God, (there is ONLY ONE) the Father of all.

Jesus, the only begotten son of the Father.

The GIFT of Holy Spirit (which is God who is the ONLY holy one, God is SPIRIT, which has no flesh & bones, as we [Mankind] do.) which is LIFE, which is eternal.

We, mankind who are born DEAD (because we have no spirit life from God living in us) MUST be born AGAIN (because Adam [=mankind] who was born alive w/eternal life from God - holy spirit, actually DID die as God said he would in the garden) to get the life Adam lost for mankind = ALL of us.

When we get born again we get eternal life - AGAIN from God. i.e. God, in Christ, in YOU, the hope of Glory.

The Glory begins coming into fruition on the day the trumpet of God sounds and Jesus returns to Earth. Those who have eternal life living in their fleshly bodies which have expired will rise and we who are still alive (in our flesh) will put off our fleshly bodies, get new ones (like Jesus modeled for us after his ressurection), go to heaven and forever be with God in the same spiritual manner that Jesus now is.

Through all of that I just can't see Jesus, the person, as being God, the son. I can't see where he would have been or what he would have been doing, or what Lucifer would have been doing in heaven prior to the whole Earth-human being debacle that it has become.

Then there's the whole propitiation thing. God having to BECOME human in order to redeem us, in my view slices a little bit of PERFECTION off of Him.

However God's begetting (for lack of a better word) ANOTHER perfect human son in the manner that the Bible goes to such painstaking detail to describe just fits - with no holes or mental gymnastics for us to go through to FORCE ourselves to believe.

It is also PERFECTLY legal, and would stand up in any human court that if one guy (human who is NOT God) representing all of mankind got all of us in "trouble" - - that the precisely PERFECT reciprocal of that would be that one guy (human who is NOT God) representing all of mankind could get all of us OUT of the same trouble.

Seeing as Adam was God's son, directly, the savior would HAVE to be God's son, directly. God didn't sin, the man from God (Adam=Mankind) did. Adam wasn't a guy NAMED Adam, he WAS Adam. MANKIND called his wife's name Eve.

There's no argumant to that fact of bot Adam and Jesus being son's of God, directly. It is not widely or profusely taught, however, that Jesus is the SECOND Adam. In my view because it would do damage to the trinitarian position.

I do, however, believe there is at least something, some truths in the stuff that leads folk to believe he's God. The whole divinity thing... they make some really strong arguments around his "being there" before the foundations of the Earth thing.

I have a problem with that, as the old testament speaks of Lucifer being the Bright and Morning Star in heaven before his fall. Then The Bible speaks of Jesus, the son of God ascending to heaven and taking Lucifer's place as #2 in heaven as the Bright & Morning Star.

This is rarely taught in churches, or discussed in not many books on the subject.

Personally, however, my further conclusion, for my life is that it doesn't make much difference to me. Jesus is who & what he is, God is who & what he is. From a practical, every day POV in life just doesn't make a whole lot of difference either way.

I'm just thrilled when the name above all names, Jesus Christ is mentioned and therefore he's remembered and in the psyche of people whether they believe him - believe IN him or not.

Ultimately the truth cannot be denied. Our belief in truth of lack thereof can in no way change it.

I guess that when we stand before God at the appropriate place & time, then we'll see for sure.

Edited March 31, 2007 by HCW

[Bolshevik]

I find it interesting that so many who study the bible on there own come to the conclusion that J.C. is independent of God. Isaac Newton and Thomas Jefferson are a couple. There was a guy during the reformation. Micheal Servetus and others.

[Bolshevik]

Francis David (1510-1579)

Good points HCW

[HCW]

I find it interesting that so many who study the bible on there own come to the conclusion that J.C. is independent of God. Isaac Newton and Thomas Jefferson are a couple. There was a guy during the reformation. Micheal Servetus and others.

... who study the Bible ON THEIR OWN...

... without the preconcieved notions that ALL religions bring to the table. The Bible started taking on a new life for me when I started reading it the SAME way I'd read a newspaper or a textbook in school or a book from a library.

When I started seeing the people in it as PEOPLE like my friends, family & neighbors and threw away insane notions like I shouldn't write on the pages of my Bible (because it is HOLY and belongs to GOD) or I should ONLY wear the BEST, newest hottest looking clothes I have when I go to HIS house (which, BTW is where you HAVE to go to talk to Him or hear from Him)... it was then that it started opening up to me like IT says it would.

Imagine that.

Let's see... God, who has always existed, has ALWAYS been this triune being, FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT,

SPLIT a whole third of himself of and BECAME HUMAN just so he could save us humans who messed up because we were tricked by His #2 in command in heaven.

While he was human he WASN'T God, but he still was - even though he wasn't - at least then. He was only all human - - then.

Then he did the job, not as God, cause it wouldn't be fair of him to be God while he was being tempted - cause you can't tempt God. So cause God is soooo much smarter than everybody else He figured out how he could be & not be God at the same time. Which of course he wasn't God when they beat the living dog sh!# out of him. Cause if he WAS God THEN it wouldn't have hurt (or would it?).

Then after the job was done, He went BACK to being all God but when you look at him you see Jesus standing at God's right hand side.

So. MAYBE sine no man has seen God, God had to jump back into his jesus suit so Steven could see him, OR maybe, Steven didn't actually SEE what he said he saw. I mean he didn't actually SAY he saw God, he said he saw Jesus standing....

Huh?

Ive got a question... can anybody tell me where Jesus was during the war in heaven when Lucifer & co. tried the take over? I don't think I've ever seen ANYTHING in the bible that mentions anything about that. But hey... I know I don't know like everything.

I do know that from my study of the Bible, The whole trinitarian thing sounds more to me like my 10yr old son's explanation of the sitch when he knows he's wrong than any kind of truth.

Sounds like the shell game to me.

[Bolshevik]

I don't mean any antagonism toward trinitarians, but when I pick up the bible, I just don't see the trinity jumping off the pages at this time. Arguments can be made about this verse and that. But as a whole. I just don't see it.

that's all.

[HCW]

I’m convinced that people who accepted Wierwille’s denial of the eternal existence and deity of Christ become free of their error only if God sovereignly grants them repentance.

Huh?

God doesn't grant ANYBODY repentance.

People CHOOSE to repent on their own, - - period.

Point of universally accepted logic that any and ALL schools of thought on the planet ahdere to....

If the premise of your argument is BS, the entire argement cannot stand.

That is precisely the mental gymnastics I'm speaking of.

You must believe many things that just are not true to come to the conclusion that Jesus eternally existed w/God as a part of the triune Godhead.

Further perusal of John (chapter 17 to be exact) finds Jesus PRAYING to God that we be one with him in the SAME manner that HE is one with God.

Mathematical truth states that if:

(A) Jesus = God ©

and

(B) We = Jesus (A)

then

(B) We = © GOD also.

Therefore...

If Jesus is God then so are WE.

Read the whole chapter... "...Why don't they EVER read the next verse!???!"

I don't mean any antagonism toward trinitarians, but when I pick up the bible, I just don't see the trinity jumping off the pages at this time. Arguments can be made about this verse and that. But as a whole. I just don't see it.

that's all.

I don't either.

In fact I go to a big, huge church where they believe and teach trinitarian concepts. I think the argument over the subject is worse in God's eyes that who's wrong about it.

Edited March 31, 2007 by HCW

[wuzawayfer]

Huh?

God doesn't grant ANYBODY repentance.

People CHOOSE to repent on their own, - - period.

Point of universally accepted logic that any and ALL schools of thought on the planet ahdere to....

If the premise of your argument is BS, the entire argement cannot stand.

That is precisely the mental gymnastics I'm speaking of.

You must believe many things that just are not true to come to the conclusion that Jesus eternally existed w/God as a part of the triune Godhead.

Further perusal of John (chapter 17 to be exact) finds Jesus PRAYING to God that we be one with him in the SAME manner that HE is one with God.

Mathematical truth states that if:

(A) Jesus = God ©

and

(B) We = Jesus (A)

then

(B) We = © GOD also.

Therefore...

If Jesus is God then so are WE.

Read the whole chapter... "...Why don't they EVER read the next verse!???!"

I don't either.

In fact I go to a big, huge church where they believe and teach trinitarian concepts. I think the argument over the subject is worse in God's eyes that who's wrong about it.

but isn't that what wayfers were programmed to do? Scorn the religious establishment. I certainly walked away from it with that idea only to find out that having been affiliated with twi I was the one being scorned. Huh? How bout One God and Jesus Christ clearly the Son of God, lover of my soul, my redeemer and Saviour? Can we end the eternal rhetoric now?

I apologize if this has already been discussed -- if it has, perhaps someone can point me in the right direction.

I didn't believe he was before the way. . . but was I brainwashed beyond repair? Am I going to hell because I believe him to be God's son and not God in the flesh?

This is starting to keep me awake at night.

I don't want to be possessed by a trinitarian devil spirit. . .

We humans can see the Word anyway we choose to. How can I know for sure?

Someone please help.

are you saved? I wouldn't worry about being possessed.

[HCW]

but isn't that what wayfers were programmed to do? Scorn the religious establishment. I certainly walked away from it with that idea only to find out that having been affiliated with twi I was the one being scorned. Huh? How bout One God and Jesus Christ clearly the Son of God, lover of my soul, my redeemer and Saviour? Can we end the eternal rhetoric now?

are you saved? I wouldn't worry about being possessed.

I no longer care what TWI followers were, are, or ever will be programmed to do.

TWI rhetoric is what it is, what it is.

I'm speaking of refraining from mental gymnastics, personally. Whereas I DO wholeheartedly believe that is is VERY necessary to drain every drop of TWI influence from our lives. I also believe that there is a point at which enough is enough in that regard as well.

From this POV.

IF I would choose to express myself in a certain manner, as I did in using the first mathematical theorem I learned in 8th grade Geometry long before I ever knew TWI existed. If that is a part of the REAL me and I choose to STOP expressing myself in that manner because TWI chose to make that a part of their rehetoric... I believe, personally speaking that...

...THEY, TWI are STILL in control of me.

There is a requisite amount of mental gynastics one MUST painstakingly go through to free himself from the influence that is TWI. It involves letting go of the influence in every way shape or form.

There is a part of EVERY one of us that "fit" with TWI, we must find those "ties that bind" or bound us to them and SEVER each and EVERY one of them.

I've been there - - done that. I've reache the point where I can say "whatever" and there is not longer any any "draw" connection or even knee-jerk repulsion I feel regarding TWI beyone any other thing I may personally be repulsed by.

That speaks to me of the fact that I'm free. I'm truly "OUT."

Lot of folk aren't as "out" as they think they are.

Nothing personal. I'm NOT speaking of anyone on this thread. Just making comments as it relates to the things being said, not the people saying them.

Edited March 31, 2007 by HCW

[Bolshevik]

You can take the cowboy out of the West, but you can't take the West out of ...

Edited March 31, 2007 by Bolshevik

[HCW]

I DO agree, in general that we should keep away from TWI rhetoric.

Basically I do keep far away from it. I believe the rhetoric is a really slippery slope and that they use that to get, check and confirm allegiance.

My point, simply put is there are subtleties involved in the way they control people.

I short I say things they way I would say them, not how TWI says I should say them.

I just believe that if we work to hard to keep away from them we are actually working to keep attached to them.

Few people here at the cafe live in closer proximity to TWI than I do. My oldest graduated from NK HS in '05 and still has ties to the community - as I do. We just basically ignore TWI and go on about our business.

That my general position, ignore them - deal w/ it as it comes up in your going about your business.

I in now way see their rhetoric as eternal - that to me is giving them too much credit, much more than they deserve and a lot of what they actually want folks to think of them.

[GarthP2000]

Can we end the eternal rhetoric now?

Yeah, like thats ever gonna happen. ... You have a 1600+ year old argument, an argument that has cost thousands upon thousands of lives of ordinary people (and mainly of the 'heretics'), ... and folks are suddenly gonna go "Ya know, this is getting pointless. We need instead to do a big (((group hug))) and become friends again."

Yah! And if you believe that, I got a bridge I wanna sell ya.

[Cynic]

Huh?

God doesn't grant ANYBODY repentance.

Yes, he does.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...=49;8;47;15;31;

People CHOOSE to repent on their own, - - period.

People have a duty to repent, but those bound in sin and error do not want to repent.

Point of universally accepted logic that any and ALL schools of thought on the planet ahdere to....

If the premise of your argument is BS, the entire argement cannot stand.

That is precisely the mental gymnastics I'm speaking of.

You must believe many things that just are not true to come to the conclusion that Jesus eternally existed w/God as a part of the triune Godhead.

Further perusal of John (chapter 17 to be exact) finds Jesus PRAYING to God that we be one with him in the SAME manner that HE is one with God.

Mathematical truth states that if:

(A) Jesus = God ©

and

(B) We = Jesus (A)

then

(B) We = © GOD also.

Therefore...

If Jesus is God then so are WE.

Read the whole chapter... "...Why don't they EVER read the next verse!???!"

You are much more full of yourself than full of a sound argument. Jesus' John 17 prayer is not that his disciples will become one with him in the same sense that he is one with his Father. His prayer is that they become one with one another, similarly as he is one with his Father. The oneness Jesus is asking for seems to be oneness in some relational sense rather than oneness in the sense of shared being or ontological equality.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Cynic

[ImSunny2]

Wasawayer:

Thanks for your interest. That is my point exactly -- am I saved?

According to trinitarians, I am not saved and am going to hell.

According to what I understand from my Bible, I am saved and will be in the gathering together.

So. . . am I?

dunno.

sure hope so. :(

[Bolshevik]

ImSunny2,

I'm sure God sees your heart. Seek and yea shall find . . .

[Kit Sober]

Going to heaven: a most important question

This question was most important before I took (hook line and sinker) PFAl et al and still is.

After twi indoctrination I was told I had a definitive answer, and easily condemned those who did not agree with the twi doctrine.

Now the question is still important, to me, even more so, actually; however, now I look to Holy Spirit for the answer.

I think, now, that following the Lord (Who is the Way the Truth and the Life) is still the way to heaven, but I don't believe that debating whether He is "God" or the "Son of God" (as though these two words are worthy of tooth-and-nail fighting) are heaven-or-hell distinctions.

I would go with the determination is whether or not we follow Him, walking in His footsteps, which lead to heaven.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Kit Sober

[TheInvisibleDan]

I always like to add only this to such discussions -

it is possible to believe Jesus Christ is God outside the context of the doctrine of the Trinity.

If you still don't like the Trinity, and are bored with the Unitarian position as well -

fret not, there is plenty of evidence that Jesus was believed among early Christians to

be "the Christ-God".

There are alternatives to the Johnny-come-lately Unitarian and Trinitarian formulations.

[TheInvisibleDan]

What?!

No one likes "Jesus the Friendly Phantom"?

Why won't you be my friend?

Everyone keeps running away...

[fellowshipper]

All I know is he is my Lord and Saviour. I too, as led to believe he is not God in the Way Ministry.

Going to regular churches over the years, I keep my mouth shut about this subject.

My current wife believes he is, the church I attend does too. My best friend a Presbyterian pastors outside of my church dogs me about the subject tryng to convince me otherwise.

I am stubborn, as I wastaught one way and believe my salvation does not lie if I believe this way or that way. I answer to my heavenly Father. No one can call on Jesus and speak lightly of him. Praise God. We all think different and I will not judge myself or others.

[blarney]

and then there's panantheism -- which integrates both (perhaps?)...

I, for one, do not believe that God is a trinitarian or a unitarian.

Blarney

[fellowshipper]

Neither do I blamey, but I am a betwist. I have my faith and Way brainwashing c r ap . Yet our salvation does not as I understand and most common churches vehemently believe otherwise that salvation lies in that he is God. Yet it lies in the basic Romans 10:9,10 verse. This is a big deal here and I am not one to put a stumbling block to my fellow Christian sisters or brothers.

We are all in a journey and I can't raise my hand about what I believe or they do....... Easter is upon us.

[waysider]

"Hey,kids! Grab a green card and sign them up for PFAL."

Just kiddin'.

Before I became involved with The WAY, I had never even heard of the trinity. OK, maybe that's because I spent more time studying R. Crumb comics than The Book Of Acts, dunno. So, when the "teachings" led to serious discussion of this issue, it all seemed rather silly to me. I mean, who believed this trinity stuff anyway? Lo and behold, I came to find out the answer to that question was "the vast majority of the Christian world". I still don't understand the logic of the trinity but I don't know if that's because TWI drummed its "importance" into my head or because it was never a part of my core beliefs to start with.

Anyway, I don't think our salvation depends on how we feel about this issue any more than it matters whether Jesus trimmed his beard or not.

Live the best life you know how to and let the chips fall where they will.

That's my opinion.

Yeah, I know. Everybody has one.

[Bolshevik]

I never really liked the title of "Jesus Christ is not God"

1. It causes immediate defensiveness of other Christians. Not exactly thought provoking.

2. It might as well be titled "Jesus Christ is not a camel"

[excathedra]

in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit

amen

[blarney]

I once said, "Maybe God isn't a trinitarian or a untiarian" to a CES person. They looked at me aghast. I never thought about putting it that way, but we develop so many litmus tests about orthodoxy when we really don't know much of anything. At least I don't.

Why must we consider doctrine so important that we can't love? We can see the speck in our brother's or sister's eye but can't see the log in our own.

I used to be so arrogant about such things. Such a waste of time and energy...

Knowing less and less as time goes by,

Blarney

Edited April 1, 2007 by blarney

[Son of the Master]

The whole point to my initial sharing in this blog in the first place was to emphasize RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. Everyone seemed so eager to argue about the Deity, my point was missed. Do you have an overwhelming belief that you cant say Jesus without saying Christ? Lord Jesus is what we confessed in Ro. 10:9-10. My wife told me I was wasting my time with this subject and reminded me of the old days talking to people about this. Anyway, an ex wayer cannot comprehend any of the trinity because of the doctrinal error about "spirit, soul, and body". I go to a trinitarian church and I have seen more power, presence and love of God than I ever did in the Way.