Since it was at one of his meetings that you and I met and you've been so upfront about him I feel I should be honest also.
That was part of the reason we came here in the first place from Illinois y'all. Because we were part of his group for awhile. And even though we left them I have to give him due respect for being refreshing and void of legalism and chains. Both he and Connie appeared to be living the life of example of Christ the way twi kept saying their leaders were doing yet we all knew they were not.
My leaving them tied to my husband having a problem but I would have remained myself.
And some of you have history no doubt and would find this hard to take I imagine. Similar to how I have wonderful memories of Alan L*cht and some of you here don't.
He left because he did speak up against the ways of Craig. And Rosie did one of those hide the staff member away in the back room so no one can access him to learn the truth.
He left for many reasons. But I think the biggest is becsause of what I said in my first post. They are living in the past. No spirit of God is active there. He would be glad to talk to anyone, pm me if you want his email or number.
CK-We did visit him because he has always been kind to me and I wanted to know what he was up to and why he left twi as well.
I'd have a hard time looking into anything Panarello has done or is involved with. The way he treated me and my wife back in the DC Metro area in 1987-88 was despicable. I'd have to have a full fledged and honest apology from that dude. And I can forgive too, for I am taught to do so by God and Jesus Christ. Sorry, just the mention of him has gotten my blood boiling. Now maybe I'll have to go to God on this one and ask Him to forgive me for my dormant anger that I obviously haven't gotten rid of...
Where is it available to get a copy of his book? I am glad to hear that he is still the man I knew him as.
Kathy,
Alan L*cht was our branch leader in Milwaukee in the late 70's; I have had great regard and respect for him too. At that time he was an amazing leader and teacher; He was a bless to everyone! If things changed in his heart or walk; I don't know about any of the how's or why's. I guess I am thankful for his heart and life back then and if he changed in a nonbeneficial way I hope and pray that God helps him resolve it and restores him and heals his heart. Perhaps, I am wrong in this; I am certain that if I am I will be corrected though. IMHO I feel or at least hope...which is more honest on my part, as I really don't know the facts, that not all leadership had error of heart. Perhaps, some only error of judgement. Since I don't know and am not the judge; therefore I have humility and compassion and Love; and quite often a lot of forgiveness.
Like I mentioned I know that lives that touched mine in good ways touched others here in equally bad ways and I suspect that to be true of pretty much any of the leadership of that group. Therefore I won't defend or twist my brain to accommodate thinking evil or thinking good either one. It is what it is. I do feel badly that any of us were hurt and my choice to post publicly my thoughts were not to pour salt in wounds or ask forgiveness towards with LP or AL. Like I said...it is what it is.
PB, I will always be thankful to have met you though and sometimes I think things happen just so lives can cross each others. It is a good thing indeed.
Now I must take care of things here so I will not be here too often today should someone speak to me and I not reply for awhile.
Yup, I remember how they treated the Panarello's after the Craig departure..
Brought them from their cozy place in Ohio to a small adjoining room location in Founder's Hall at HQ.. Talk about a dark location for them. They had nothing they were used to, no room to live, and not much access to the Ohio limb they were suppose to oversee from their tiny room. They didn't even have a private phone in their room to take calls from those in the Limb, and instead had to take those calls in the hallway with everyone else in Founder's Hall listening.. Yup.. No privacy. No room. Screwed up life being watched daily by TWI. So they secretly slipped away into the night after about 2 month of living at HQ..
Marcion eh.... Yeah I remember a bit about him and his hatred for law.. To bad he never understood torah the way it was meant to be understood rather than the stumbling block it became.
J Lingo-I'm sure he would apologize to you if he knew who you are. That was a long time ago. I'm sure he would love to hear from you. Pm me if you want his email.
Marcion eh.... Yeah I remember a bit about him and his hatred for law.. To bad he never understood torah the way it was meant to be understood rather than the stumbling block it became.
Marcion may have understood the law far more acutely than has been assumed.
Harnack thought that Marcion had himself had been raised in Judaism,
and R. Joseph Hoffman in his 1984 thesis brings out further food for thought
along these lines.
Also consider the fact that there have been many movements under the umbrella term
of 'Judaism' (as there are 'Christianity').
I'de be curious as to what movement you suppose may preserve the Torah "the way it was meant to be understood"?
Yup, I remember how they treated the Panarello's after the Craig departure..
Brought them from their cozy place in Ohio to a small adjoining room location in Founder's Hall at HQ.. Talk about a dark location for them. They had nothing they were used to, no room to live, and not much access to the Ohio limb they were suppose to oversee from their tiny room. They didn't even have a private phone in their room to take calls from those in the Limb, and instead had to take those calls in the hallway with everyone else in Founder's Hall listening.. Yup.. No privacy. No room. Screwed up life being watched daily by TWI. So they secretly slipped away into the night after about 2 month of living at HQ..
I don't blame em..
I want to say "unbelievable" but unfortunately it is all too believable.
Marcion may have understood the law far more acutely than has been assumed.
Harnack thought that Marcion had himself had been raised in Judaism,
...
I'de be curious as to what movement you suppose may preserve the Torah "the way it was meant to be understood"?
Not trying to be conttentious here, but everything I've read always points to Marcion having been born into a 'new-covenant' believing family and his father being a prominent elder or deacon or bishop or whatever they called themselves.
Who knows, sources are always wrong, and we're talking about a guy whose been gone and dead so long ago, no one will ever really know!
As for what movement I'm refering to? None.. My point only being that the Torah, which means 'instructions' but translated 'laws', was just that, instructions given from a Father. Just as Proverbs says not to despise the Torah given by thy mother. The Jews took them and lauded them up as laws and made them larger than they were, and they became a stumbling block as Romans clearly shows. Was man made for Torah or Torah made for man? God didn't expect them to be perfect and do them, only to keep them. The word 'keep' in Hebrew meant to guard and protect, not an obedience sort of thing a heart thing. To "break" the Torah was a word that meant to trample them underfoot, not to just disobey, but totally disregard them and dishonor the one who gave the instructions. 1 Timothy 1:8 "But we know that torah is good, if one uses it lawfully...". The law was not evil, it was the Jews that made them the stumbling block they became, and people today continue to follow in their footsteps. The whole OT wasn't about obeying commandments, but about mercy and love just as Marcion believed, only he felt the OT was all about laws and the laws were evil to him, as do the Jews today, but God says differently even in the Tanakh.
Not trying to be conttentious here, but everything I've read always points to Marcion having been born into a 'new-covenant' believing family and his father being a prominent elder or deacon or bishop or whatever they called themselves.
Who knows, sources are always wrong, and we're talking about a guy whose been gone and dead so long ago, no one will ever really know!
So very true when it comes to weighing all information passed down to us.
How much of it is true? Or how much of may be ancient propaganda directed against a most serious rival -
particularly through the weapons of allegory? for example, Tertullian claimed Marcion seduced a "virgin", - the "virgin" = the church;
that Marcion offered n immense monetary gift to the Church at Rome (if such an event actually occurred), with his gift being ultimately rejected along
with his heretical teaching- recalling the episode between Simon Magus and Peter in Acts 8.
And then there are even stranger legends - that Marcion had once been a scribe for John the Elder (the writer of the Fourth Gospel) - who,
as the legend depicts, fired his scribe for having peppered his account with his heresies.
Another allegory? Or was Marcion actually a contemporary of the writer of the fourth Gospel? That would place Marcion somewhere in the vicinity of 100 -110 CE,
if indeed that's when "John" was written.
As for what movement I'm refering to? None.. My point only being that the Torah, which means 'instructions' but translated 'laws', was just that, instructions given from a Father. Just as Proverbs says not to despise the Torah given by thy mother. The Jews took them and lauded them up as laws and made them larger than they were, and they became a stumbling block as Romans clearly shows. Was man made for Torah or Torah made for man? God didn't expect them to be perfect and do them, only to keep them. The word 'keep' in Hebrew meant to guard and protect, not an obedience sort of thing a heart thing. To "break" the Torah was a word that meant to trample them underfoot, not to just disobey, but totally disregard them and dishonor the one who gave the instructions. 1 Timothy 1:8 "But we know that torah is good, if one uses it lawfully...". The law was not evil, it was the Jews that made them the stumbling block they became, and people today continue to follow in their footsteps.
But why is "Timothy" particularly concerned to go so far as to express this utterance to begin with - "but we know that the Law is good...", in the company of other expressions which most coincidently attack points of the debate distinctly associated with second century Marcionism?
It's no fluke that the authorship and authenticity of the "Pastoral Epistles" (1&2 Tim., Titus) have been questioned by scholars for well over the past 200 years.
For many reasons set forth in a many critical NT introductions (Beine-Kummel, and more recently Bart Ehrman). If Paul didn't write the Pastorals, who did, and for what reason?
Does the style of the Pastorals actually reflect that of the earlier epistles attributed to Paul? There the opening prologues to the Pastorals are enough by themselves to raise red flags.
His book is called "The True Justice of a Just God. It's about healing, restoration and God's justice.
He explains how Jesus Christ came to show how God is light and love in the gospels He also explains what the Daysman is.
My first thought was, what the heck does Larry Panarello know about light & love? What the heck does he know about healing and restoration?
Then I read this….
Yup, I remember how they treated the Panarello's after the Craig departure..
Brought them from their cozy place in Ohio to a small adjoining room location in Founder's Hall at HQ.. Talk about a dark location for them. They had nothing they were used to, no room to live, and not much access to the Ohio limb they were suppose to oversee from their tiny room. They didn't even have a private phone in their room to take calls from those in the Limb, and instead had to take those calls in the hallway with everyone else in Founder's Hall listening.. Yup.. No privacy. No room. Screwed up life being watched daily by TWI. So they secretly slipped away into the night after about 2 month of living at HQ..
I don't blame em..
Waaah, Waaah, Waaaah - I guess he got a little taste of “justice”. Having to live in the conditions he demanded of others. What an eye opener that must have been. Apparently, not very comfortable or nice, eh?
Larry was a Craig Martindale wannabe. He treated people horribly and without an ounce of “light”, “love” or modicom of compassion like Jesus teaches in the Gospels. He was all about justice, but Craig Martindale style justice. He was the number one guy behind Craig casting verbal stones at people – breaking hearts and destroying lives.
Does he have a “real” job, or is he still a full time minister building his ministry so he doesn’t have to face life in the egg sucking world he despised so much?
I remember Larry and Connie. Larry was one legalistic guy on Craig's coat tails. He was the Ed McMahon of TWI. One time I remember during the Rock that Craig blasted a guy for making a suggestion and the guy walked off. Craig sent larry running after him to calm him down. It didn't work, though. The guy was from New York and had his New York fellowship with him. One bad act by LCM wiped out that fellowship. They all left TWI that day.
None-the-less, I remember being quite the Way enforcer before the abuse hit home. Actually a lot of bad doctrine and weird stuff to boot. My fellowship, all the members forgave me, after I apologized to them all, every one I could find, one by one, over the years. Thank God. I remember Larry being quite the abuser to me once on a minor infraction that wasn't an infraction. I have decided to let that go because of how my people let my actions go.
It seems Larry may have turned around here. I certainly can understand how people feel about him, and I guess I won't be asking them to feel good about him just yet. But, as a guy who has been in his situation, and having left, I would like to extend my hand to him and say "Welcome Home." It was long overdue.
What's the name of his ministry? Does he have a website to check him out?
according to the blurb on amazon, it's Beloved of God Ministries in Westerville, Ohio. no website i can find. but i did find their federal form 990-EZ from 2002. it's the return for an organization that's tax exempt. says they made a whopping $27,000 in 2002! (do you think they declared cash income?)
it's attached, if anyone's interested. i like the fact that they paid an accountant to fill out a form that couldn't possibly take more than 15 minutes to complete.
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polar bear
I'm not promoting his group and I don't belong to it but I just received a copy of a new book by Larry Panarello former twi clergy. One thing I do like about him is he never asks for money. It's
ChattyKathy
Since it was at one of his meetings that you and I met and you've been so upfront about him I feel I should be honest also. That was part of the reason we came here in the first place from Illinois
Oakspear
Did LP ever say why he left TWI? He seemed to be, and was held up to be by LCM, faithful and obedient to LCM's "leadership", and left after LCM was booted. Seems curious to me, but I don't know...s
ChattyKathy
Since it was at one of his meetings that you and I met and you've been so upfront about him I feel I should be honest also.
That was part of the reason we came here in the first place from Illinois y'all. Because we were part of his group for awhile. And even though we left them I have to give him due respect for being refreshing and void of legalism and chains. Both he and Connie appeared to be living the life of example of Christ the way twi kept saying their leaders were doing yet we all knew they were not.
My leaving them tied to my husband having a problem but I would have remained myself.
And some of you have history no doubt and would find this hard to take I imagine. Similar to how I have wonderful memories of Alan L*cht and some of you here don't.
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Oakspear
Did LP ever say why he left TWI?
He seemed to be, and was held up to be by LCM, faithful and obedient to LCM's "leadership", and left after LCM was booted.
Seems curious to me, but I don't know...so I'm asking
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ChattyKathy
He left because he did speak up against the ways of Craig. And Rosie did one of those hide the staff member away in the back room so no one can access him to learn the truth.
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polar bear
He left for many reasons. But I think the biggest is becsause of what I said in my first post. They are living in the past. No spirit of God is active there. He would be glad to talk to anyone, pm me if you want his email or number.
CK-We did visit him because he has always been kind to me and I wanted to know what he was up to and why he left twi as well.
It was a double blessing to get to meet you.
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J0nny Ling0
I'd have a hard time looking into anything Panarello has done or is involved with. The way he treated me and my wife back in the DC Metro area in 1987-88 was despicable. I'd have to have a full fledged and honest apology from that dude. And I can forgive too, for I am taught to do so by God and Jesus Christ. Sorry, just the mention of him has gotten my blood boiling. Now maybe I'll have to go to God on this one and ask Him to forgive me for my dormant anger that I obviously haven't gotten rid of...
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RainbowsGirl
"Bear"
Where is it available to get a copy of his book? I am glad to hear that he is still the man I knew him as.
Kathy,
Alan L*cht was our branch leader in Milwaukee in the late 70's; I have had great regard and respect for him too. At that time he was an amazing leader and teacher; He was a bless to everyone! If things changed in his heart or walk; I don't know about any of the how's or why's. I guess I am thankful for his heart and life back then and if he changed in a nonbeneficial way I hope and pray that God helps him resolve it and restores him and heals his heart. Perhaps, I am wrong in this; I am certain that if I am I will be corrected though. IMHO I feel or at least hope...which is more honest on my part, as I really don't know the facts, that not all leadership had error of heart. Perhaps, some only error of judgement. Since I don't know and am not the judge; therefore I have humility and compassion and Love; and quite often a lot of forgiveness.
Love You Both, RG
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ChattyKathy
Like I mentioned I know that lives that touched mine in good ways touched others here in equally bad ways and I suspect that to be true of pretty much any of the leadership of that group. Therefore I won't defend or twist my brain to accommodate thinking evil or thinking good either one. It is what it is. I do feel badly that any of us were hurt and my choice to post publicly my thoughts were not to pour salt in wounds or ask forgiveness towards with LP or AL. Like I said...it is what it is.
PB, I will always be thankful to have met you though and sometimes I think things happen just so lives can cross each others. It is a good thing indeed.
Now I must take care of things here so I will not be here too often today should someone speak to me and I not reply for awhile.
Kisses and Hugs to all.
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TheInvisibleDan
Still in bondage to the "Just God", the lower demiurge. Yep, way to go.
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sprawled out
care to elaborate?
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TrustAndObey
Yup, I remember how they treated the Panarello's after the Craig departure..
Brought them from their cozy place in Ohio to a small adjoining room location in Founder's Hall at HQ.. Talk about a dark location for them. They had nothing they were used to, no room to live, and not much access to the Ohio limb they were suppose to oversee from their tiny room. They didn't even have a private phone in their room to take calls from those in the Limb, and instead had to take those calls in the hallway with everyone else in Founder's Hall listening.. Yup.. No privacy. No room. Screwed up life being watched daily by TWI. So they secretly slipped away into the night after about 2 month of living at HQ..
I don't blame em..
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likeaneagle
Good for them for leaving...
Gesh- talking about being hung out to dry..this sickens me.
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Oakspear
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TrustAndObey
Marcion eh.... Yeah I remember a bit about him and his hatred for law.. To bad he never understood torah the way it was meant to be understood rather than the stumbling block it became.
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polar bear
J Lingo-I'm sure he would apologize to you if he knew who you are. That was a long time ago. I'm sure he would love to hear from you. Pm me if you want his email.
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TheInvisibleDan
Marcion may have understood the law far more acutely than has been assumed.
Harnack thought that Marcion had himself had been raised in Judaism,
and R. Joseph Hoffman in his 1984 thesis brings out further food for thought
along these lines.
Also consider the fact that there have been many movements under the umbrella term
of 'Judaism' (as there are 'Christianity').
I'de be curious as to what movement you suppose may preserve the Torah "the way it was meant to be understood"?
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Lone Wolf McQuade
What's the name of his ministry? Does he have a website to check him out?
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Eyesopen
I want to say "unbelievable" but unfortunately it is all too believable.
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TrustAndObey
Not trying to be conttentious here, but everything I've read always points to Marcion having been born into a 'new-covenant' believing family and his father being a prominent elder or deacon or bishop or whatever they called themselves.
Who knows, sources are always wrong, and we're talking about a guy whose been gone and dead so long ago, no one will ever really know!
As for what movement I'm refering to? None.. My point only being that the Torah, which means 'instructions' but translated 'laws', was just that, instructions given from a Father. Just as Proverbs says not to despise the Torah given by thy mother. The Jews took them and lauded them up as laws and made them larger than they were, and they became a stumbling block as Romans clearly shows. Was man made for Torah or Torah made for man? God didn't expect them to be perfect and do them, only to keep them. The word 'keep' in Hebrew meant to guard and protect, not an obedience sort of thing a heart thing. To "break" the Torah was a word that meant to trample them underfoot, not to just disobey, but totally disregard them and dishonor the one who gave the instructions. 1 Timothy 1:8 "But we know that torah is good, if one uses it lawfully...". The law was not evil, it was the Jews that made them the stumbling block they became, and people today continue to follow in their footsteps. The whole OT wasn't about obeying commandments, but about mercy and love just as Marcion believed, only he felt the OT was all about laws and the laws were evil to him, as do the Jews today, but God says differently even in the Tanakh.
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TheInvisibleDan
So very true when it comes to weighing all information passed down to us.
How much of it is true? Or how much of may be ancient propaganda directed against a most serious rival -
particularly through the weapons of allegory? for example, Tertullian claimed Marcion seduced a "virgin", - the "virgin" = the church;
that Marcion offered n immense monetary gift to the Church at Rome (if such an event actually occurred), with his gift being ultimately rejected along
with his heretical teaching- recalling the episode between Simon Magus and Peter in Acts 8.
And then there are even stranger legends - that Marcion had once been a scribe for John the Elder (the writer of the Fourth Gospel) - who,
as the legend depicts, fired his scribe for having peppered his account with his heresies.
Another allegory? Or was Marcion actually a contemporary of the writer of the fourth Gospel? That would place Marcion somewhere in the vicinity of 100 -110 CE,
if indeed that's when "John" was written.
But why is "Timothy" particularly concerned to go so far as to express this utterance to begin with - "but we know that the Law is good...", in the company of other expressions which most coincidently attack points of the debate distinctly associated with second century Marcionism?
It's no fluke that the authorship and authenticity of the "Pastoral Epistles" (1&2 Tim., Titus) have been questioned by scholars for well over the past 200 years.
For many reasons set forth in a many critical NT introductions (Beine-Kummel, and more recently Bart Ehrman). If Paul didn't write the Pastorals, who did, and for what reason?
Does the style of the Pastorals actually reflect that of the earlier epistles attributed to Paul? There the opening prologues to the Pastorals are enough by themselves to raise red flags.
Danny
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excathedra
wonder if catcup will show for this thread ?
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Belle
My first thought was, what the heck does Larry Panarello know about light & love? What the heck does he know about healing and restoration?
Then I read this….
Waaah, Waaah, Waaaah - I guess he got a little taste of “justice”. Having to live in the conditions he demanded of others. What an eye opener that must have been. Apparently, not very comfortable or nice, eh?
Larry was a Craig Martindale wannabe. He treated people horribly and without an ounce of “light”, “love” or modicom of compassion like Jesus teaches in the Gospels. He was all about justice, but Craig Martindale style justice. He was the number one guy behind Craig casting verbal stones at people – breaking hearts and destroying lives.
Does he have a “real” job, or is he still a full time minister building his ministry so he doesn’t have to face life in the egg sucking world he despised so much?
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Eagle
I remember Larry and Connie. Larry was one legalistic guy on Craig's coat tails. He was the Ed McMahon of TWI. One time I remember during the Rock that Craig blasted a guy for making a suggestion and the guy walked off. Craig sent larry running after him to calm him down. It didn't work, though. The guy was from New York and had his New York fellowship with him. One bad act by LCM wiped out that fellowship. They all left TWI that day.
None-the-less, I remember being quite the Way enforcer before the abuse hit home. Actually a lot of bad doctrine and weird stuff to boot. My fellowship, all the members forgave me, after I apologized to them all, every one I could find, one by one, over the years. Thank God. I remember Larry being quite the abuser to me once on a minor infraction that wasn't an infraction. I have decided to let that go because of how my people let my actions go.
It seems Larry may have turned around here. I certainly can understand how people feel about him, and I guess I won't be asking them to feel good about him just yet. But, as a guy who has been in his situation, and having left, I would like to extend my hand to him and say "Welcome Home." It was long overdue.
Everybody deserves a fresh start.
I hope I am right. I don't know Larry THAT well.
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sprawled out
according to the blurb on amazon, it's Beloved of God Ministries in Westerville, Ohio. no website i can find. but i did find their federal form 990-EZ from 2002. it's the return for an organization that's tax exempt. says they made a whopping $27,000 in 2002! (do you think they declared cash income?)
it's attached, if anyone's interested. i like the fact that they paid an accountant to fill out a form that couldn't possibly take more than 15 minutes to complete.
311812036_200212_990EZ.pdf
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Ham
"Smart as a brick" may apply here. Many of us trusted our lives to people who couldn't balance a checkbook.
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