I hesitated to post but felt an obligation to let others know how much my friend's life was changed by that one wrong decision to listen to a "minister''s" wife that she trusted.
Gosh, why did we believe them??????
I sometimes wonder how they live with themselves and do not wish to be hard on anyone but they almost exhibit subhuman characteristics.
This Randy Ginn you speak of... is not Canadian. His wife is though. He and his wife were coordinators here in Canada for years.
Up here in Canada, Mr. Ginn also left a path of destruction wherever he 'pastored'. I know for a fact that many Canadians including myself were almost destroyed because of this monster.
Thanks for being so open and forthright here. It is refreshing ... unlike some people who feel they need to write lofty spiritual books.
It helps to apologize. Trust me on this. Think about it or go to God. I believe most (not all, maybe) would accept your apology for your past.
There is no substitute for a face-to-face, eye-to-eye meeting where you actually connect with the person. They would have to be prepared to listen to my point of view and hear exactly about the extent of the damage they caused. If the Panarellos actually contacted me and we had such a meeting in which they actually listened to and acknowledged exactly how wrong they were, and apologized to me, my husband, and my daughter for what they did, and were truly sincere, they might find an advocate for their recovery. Because to me, if you are at least willing to admit to me personally that you regret your actions and the harm they caused me personally and to my family, I would be willing to extend forgiveness and actually vouch for the sincerity of your intentions.
But no "blanket" statements. Come directly to the people that you damaged, and look them in the eye. In many cases, the damage occurred face to face. So, the healing should take place in the same manner To my face, acknowledge you harmed me and you regret it. Then we can start somewhere.
But I doubt that people like Martindale, Wallace, and the Panarellos are made of that kind of courage and humility.
I would like nothing more than to be proved wrong on that.
Still, I have no illusions. I'm not holding my breath, and going on with my life. They will answer for what theydid.
This type of subject regarding X Way leaders and their behavior is challenging for me but I decided to add my 2 cents. My timeframe for being tossed out of TWI is the same as Cats and my treatment and the logic used to toss me is very similiar. My story, newly ordained guy shows up in 95' things started off okay but once he had been there for a while he started digging into people lives including the WC and heads started getting cut off.
I was never under LP's leadership but was around him at HQ. I always liked what I saw when around him and how he treated me. I'm not trying to belittle what happened to so many good folks but having been in a position of leadership during the mid 90's the pressure to become Craig like was intense. I never sold out to the yelling and grasping for "spiritual reasons" that people were screwed up but I sure came close. I did not want to be ousted I felt (at the time) that I had a lot to lose and that failure was not an option. Of course I realize now that I was brainwashed by TWI and had gradually allowed myself to be deceived. I did not have the maturity that Cats and her husband had so I just kind of gradually froze up due to pressure and the fear from all the microspopic probes that were inserted up my arse and self-destructed.
Now that it's been more than 10 years since all that crap went down my perception of why it happened has matured. I always think of the scripture in Galatians about "biting and devouring one another" or something like that with reagard to what happens when things get all legalistic and religous in a group of Chrisitians. The guy that kicked me out of the WC and later TWI eventually was put in the same position and was demoted and later left TWI. I was around him a little after he was demoted and before he left TWI and never got an apology or even a conversation about what happened. Why didn't I bring it up? I should have but wussed out. I agree with Cats that apologizing is a good and right thing. I came back to TWI for a short time after LCM was ousted and apologized to people that I had been harsh with in 95-96. I just felt that it was the right thing to do and like Cats I think it shows that someone has honestly changed if they seek out those they hurt and apologize. It was hard to seek these folks out and apologize but I kenw it was the right thing to do. The fact that LP and others have never done so is not a good thing and demonstrates that something is wrong in their thinking.
To me the bottom line here is that the adversary just had a field day with people. Somebody got the ball rolling mostly Craig from what I know and then others in leadership joined in and by the mid 90's it was out of control! WC going full-time allowed for all kinds of control and horrible acts to be committed on good hearted folks. Then there was the homo purge and later the need to "cross the bridge" into the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. Of course nobody in leadership was saying that the crossing would be on the bodies of all those that had been abused and tossed out like refuse by TWI leaders. It's funny becaue I can laugh about this now and at myself for being so stupid. Not to be insensitive to those that can't laugh and may never.
I enjoyed reading your post. It takes a great heart of love to go back and to apologize! Although I cannot really understand it; like You said, there is something truly wrong with the thinking of those who never apologize for whatever reasons they claim... arrogance, pride, fear, hard heartedness, and seared consciences to name a few. Better now than later before God! I applaud your courage and your love!
I'm sure the pressure on the leadership was bad, too. Some leaders used it as an excuse, license to be as abusive as they wanted to be - others struggled immensely with the expectation that they would be as abusive as craiggers and his cronies when it was the total opposite of their nature and reason for wanting to be leaders.
A tough position to be in, for sure. Wanting to help folks and, part of you not wanting to buck the system because of you could stay in your position, you might be able to protect people from the diabolical evil you knew was coming out of hq and trying to destroy lives.
Something else I forgot and wanted to add on this subject is by the time I got into The Way and later leadership the big break up had already happened. I have come to realize that many in postions of higher leadership by default were loyal to Craig and therefore were primed and ready to go wherever he led. Sure there were still leaders that thought for themselves but by the early 90's Craig was taking control of everything and intimidating everybody. It reminds me of a lot of what I've read about Nazi Germany and what happened as Hitler rose to power. A lot of good people just fell in line once Hitler had the reins in his hands and fear ruled the day.
Top leaders at Region level and cabinet level were not all into what Craig was doing but they let him have at it and all to some degree or antoher got caught up in it. If you didn't you were done away with no matter what postion you had.
I'm sure the pressure on the leadership was bad, too. Some leaders used it as an excuse, license to be as abusive as they wanted to be - others struggled immensely with the expectation that they would be as abusive as craiggers and his cronies when it was the total opposite of their nature and reason for wanting to be leaders.
A tough position to be in, for sure. Wanting to help folks and, part of you not wanting to buck the system because of you could stay in your position, you might be able to protect people from the diabolical evil you knew was coming out of hq and trying to destroy lives.
Yes......I was in one of those tough positions. What came out of the 1996 March Leadership Meetings at HQ was an intensity of corps micro-management and via Martindale's directives the Region Leaders were the ENFORCERS. That's right.....verbatim, Martindale ordered them to "eyeball their limb coordinators once a month." In other words, get in their face -- eyeball to eyeball -- every month [and strictly monitor every corps person in their state].
From what I observed, Moynihan and Panarello were the front-runners of these NEW ENFORCEMENTS. They were the senior proto-types of this new Region Coordinator that martindale was manufacturing. Soon, the younger region men aspired to these prototypes and the martindale legalistic system of "mog-praise." Yes, these guys received martindale's praise on those weekly corps phone hook-ups. The chokehold in twi was advancing toward its zenith. Moynihan had his talor-made agendas for his region: Panarello, and his organized file system, had his.
As a limb coordinator reasonably far from hq, I was able to ward off the encroaching evil and protect the people for quite some time. To the best of our ability, we did not go to the believers' homes and strictly demand looking at their finances or child-rearing techniques or strongarm their individuality, etc. It was tough.......really tough, struggling with the "new twi" and wave after wave of mog-adulation mentality. Of course, from this time and distance --- it all seems so absurb and bizarre. But the analogy of the frog in luke-warm water and raising it to a boil speaks volumes to me.
On one hand, I am disgusted that I stayed with twi until 1998.............on the other hand, I pray that I helped to thwart some of the waves of evil doctrine from such wonderful believers who desired to live for God. May the God of all mercy pass righteous judgement on those who kept their hearts and motives fixed on true service.
It took me several years to see that Martindale was made in the Wierwille-image. And, therefore......even lcm allowed his ego and arrogance racheted up by wierwille's statements and agenda.
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polar bear
I'm not promoting his group and I don't belong to it but I just received a copy of a new book by Larry Panarello former twi clergy. One thing I do like about him is he never asks for money. It's
ChattyKathy
Since it was at one of his meetings that you and I met and you've been so upfront about him I feel I should be honest also. That was part of the reason we came here in the first place from Illinois
Oakspear
Did LP ever say why he left TWI? He seemed to be, and was held up to be by LCM, faithful and obedient to LCM's "leadership", and left after LCM was booted. Seems curious to me, but I don't know...s
rascal
Yup, I do, I believe that it is called a *SEARED CONSCIENCE* :(
Most of those monsters are damned arrogant and proud of what they have done.
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thankgodifinallywokeup
Thanks Excathedra and Rascal for the welcome.
I hesitated to post but felt an obligation to let others know how much my friend's life was changed by that one wrong decision to listen to a "minister''s" wife that she trusted.
Gosh, why did we believe them??????
I sometimes wonder how they live with themselves and do not wish to be hard on anyone but they almost exhibit subhuman characteristics.
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Suda
Welcome ThankGodIFinallyWokeUp,
Hope you enjoy your visits to the cafe. Could I interest you in some mint tea and oatmeal raisin cookies. My treat.
Visit as often as you like. We are glad to have you here.
Suda
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thankgodifinallywokeup
Thanks so much, Suda :D
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Eagle
Larry,
It helps to apologize. Trust me on this. Think about it or go to God. I believe most (not all, maybe) would accept your apology for your past.
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Bramble
It is self published. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it didn't come from a Christian publisher.
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A la prochaine
Catcup,
This Randy Ginn you speak of... is not Canadian. His wife is though. He and his wife were coordinators here in Canada for years.
Up here in Canada, Mr. Ginn also left a path of destruction wherever he 'pastored'. I know for a fact that many Canadians including myself were almost destroyed because of this monster.
Thanks for being so open and forthright here. It is refreshing ... unlike some people who feel they need to write lofty spiritual books.
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Catcup
There is no substitute for a face-to-face, eye-to-eye meeting where you actually connect with the person. They would have to be prepared to listen to my point of view and hear exactly about the extent of the damage they caused. If the Panarellos actually contacted me and we had such a meeting in which they actually listened to and acknowledged exactly how wrong they were, and apologized to me, my husband, and my daughter for what they did, and were truly sincere, they might find an advocate for their recovery. Because to me, if you are at least willing to admit to me personally that you regret your actions and the harm they caused me personally and to my family, I would be willing to extend forgiveness and actually vouch for the sincerity of your intentions.
But no "blanket" statements. Come directly to the people that you damaged, and look them in the eye. In many cases, the damage occurred face to face. So, the healing should take place in the same manner To my face, acknowledge you harmed me and you regret it. Then we can start somewhere.
But I doubt that people like Martindale, Wallace, and the Panarellos are made of that kind of courage and humility.
I would like nothing more than to be proved wrong on that.
Still, I have no illusions. I'm not holding my breath, and going on with my life. They will answer for what theydid.
The question is,
Would you rather answer for it to me now,
Or to Him, later?
One way or the other, Larry, Craig, Mark....
You will answer for it.
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Imagine
I don't care who wrote the book or what the book is about....
I just want to know...
Who did the illustrations?
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WhiteDove
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twinot
This type of subject regarding X Way leaders and their behavior is challenging for me but I decided to add my 2 cents. My timeframe for being tossed out of TWI is the same as Cats and my treatment and the logic used to toss me is very similiar. My story, newly ordained guy shows up in 95' things started off okay but once he had been there for a while he started digging into people lives including the WC and heads started getting cut off.
I was never under LP's leadership but was around him at HQ. I always liked what I saw when around him and how he treated me. I'm not trying to belittle what happened to so many good folks but having been in a position of leadership during the mid 90's the pressure to become Craig like was intense. I never sold out to the yelling and grasping for "spiritual reasons" that people were screwed up but I sure came close. I did not want to be ousted I felt (at the time) that I had a lot to lose and that failure was not an option. Of course I realize now that I was brainwashed by TWI and had gradually allowed myself to be deceived. I did not have the maturity that Cats and her husband had so I just kind of gradually froze up due to pressure and the fear from all the microspopic probes that were inserted up my arse and self-destructed.
Now that it's been more than 10 years since all that crap went down my perception of why it happened has matured. I always think of the scripture in Galatians about "biting and devouring one another" or something like that with reagard to what happens when things get all legalistic and religous in a group of Chrisitians. The guy that kicked me out of the WC and later TWI eventually was put in the same position and was demoted and later left TWI. I was around him a little after he was demoted and before he left TWI and never got an apology or even a conversation about what happened. Why didn't I bring it up? I should have but wussed out. I agree with Cats that apologizing is a good and right thing. I came back to TWI for a short time after LCM was ousted and apologized to people that I had been harsh with in 95-96. I just felt that it was the right thing to do and like Cats I think it shows that someone has honestly changed if they seek out those they hurt and apologize. It was hard to seek these folks out and apologize but I kenw it was the right thing to do. The fact that LP and others have never done so is not a good thing and demonstrates that something is wrong in their thinking.
To me the bottom line here is that the adversary just had a field day with people. Somebody got the ball rolling mostly Craig from what I know and then others in leadership joined in and by the mid 90's it was out of control! WC going full-time allowed for all kinds of control and horrible acts to be committed on good hearted folks. Then there was the homo purge and later the need to "cross the bridge" into the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. Of course nobody in leadership was saying that the crossing would be on the bodies of all those that had been abused and tossed out like refuse by TWI leaders. It's funny becaue I can laugh about this now and at myself for being so stupid. Not to be insensitive to those that can't laugh and may never.
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RainbowsGirl
Dear ((((Twinot)))))!
I enjoyed reading your post. It takes a great heart of love to go back and to apologize! Although I cannot really understand it; like You said, there is something truly wrong with the thinking of those who never apologize for whatever reasons they claim... arrogance, pride, fear, hard heartedness, and seared consciences to name a few. Better now than later before God! I applaud your courage and your love!
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Belle
I'm sure the pressure on the leadership was bad, too. Some leaders used it as an excuse, license to be as abusive as they wanted to be - others struggled immensely with the expectation that they would be as abusive as craiggers and his cronies when it was the total opposite of their nature and reason for wanting to be leaders.
A tough position to be in, for sure. Wanting to help folks and, part of you not wanting to buck the system because of you could stay in your position, you might be able to protect people from the diabolical evil you knew was coming out of hq and trying to destroy lives.
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twinot
Something else I forgot and wanted to add on this subject is by the time I got into The Way and later leadership the big break up had already happened. I have come to realize that many in postions of higher leadership by default were loyal to Craig and therefore were primed and ready to go wherever he led. Sure there were still leaders that thought for themselves but by the early 90's Craig was taking control of everything and intimidating everybody. It reminds me of a lot of what I've read about Nazi Germany and what happened as Hitler rose to power. A lot of good people just fell in line once Hitler had the reins in his hands and fear ruled the day.
Top leaders at Region level and cabinet level were not all into what Craig was doing but they let him have at it and all to some degree or antoher got caught up in it. If you didn't you were done away with no matter what postion you had.
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skyrider
Yes......I was in one of those tough positions. What came out of the 1996 March Leadership Meetings at HQ was an intensity of corps micro-management and via Martindale's directives the Region Leaders were the ENFORCERS. That's right.....verbatim, Martindale ordered them to "eyeball their limb coordinators once a month." In other words, get in their face -- eyeball to eyeball -- every month [and strictly monitor every corps person in their state].
From what I observed, Moynihan and Panarello were the front-runners of these NEW ENFORCEMENTS. They were the senior proto-types of this new Region Coordinator that martindale was manufacturing. Soon, the younger region men aspired to these prototypes and the martindale legalistic system of "mog-praise." Yes, these guys received martindale's praise on those weekly corps phone hook-ups. The chokehold in twi was advancing toward its zenith. Moynihan had his talor-made agendas for his region: Panarello, and his organized file system, had his.
As a limb coordinator reasonably far from hq, I was able to ward off the encroaching evil and protect the people for quite some time. To the best of our ability, we did not go to the believers' homes and strictly demand looking at their finances or child-rearing techniques or strongarm their individuality, etc. It was tough.......really tough, struggling with the "new twi" and wave after wave of mog-adulation mentality. Of course, from this time and distance --- it all seems so absurb and bizarre. But the analogy of the frog in luke-warm water and raising it to a boil speaks volumes to me.
On one hand, I am disgusted that I stayed with twi until 1998.............on the other hand, I pray that I helped to thwart some of the waves of evil doctrine from such wonderful believers who desired to live for God. May the God of all mercy pass righteous judgement on those who kept their hearts and motives fixed on true service.
It took me several years to see that Martindale was made in the Wierwille-image. And, therefore......even lcm allowed his ego and arrogance racheted up by wierwille's statements and agenda.
Peace.
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rascal
Thanks guys for trying to protect us.
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