quote: JC had the choice in the garden whether to follow his own will and run away, far away, from the people he knew were coming to kill him; or whether to stay and follow God's plan. He stayed and went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
Was that "free will" or "predestination"?
From God's pov it was predestination; from Jesus' it was free will.
I ask these questions, because I have this thought in the back of my head that seems to say to me over and over "these things happened because YOU allowed them to, and therefore YOU are responsible... sure, other people ENCOURAGED and TOLD YOU TO, but ultimately, this was YOUR DECISION, and only YOU are RESPONSIBLE...."
One fallacy/misunderstanding a lot of people get in applying the concept of 'free will' in this particular topic is thinking that, because it was free will that we used to participate in TWI (and in other 'mind controlling cults') that that somehow made it OUR fault that all the abusive crap happened to us. (Momentus was particularly effective in applying that manipulative guilt trip on people, especially when it came to holding them accountable for their abuses)
That is not the case at ALL. Ie., YOU are responsible (notice I did not say necessarily 'to blame') for what YOU do. The OTHER person/people are responsible for what THEY do. ... Example: I am responsible for going to twigs/taking the classes/taking further involvment in TWI and how I responded to the lies and control, until I had it up to here and decided to leave. The leaders who lied/tried to control my life are responsible for THEIR actions and responses in that direction.
A sidenote here for those who don't put much stock in freedom of will: As far as I am concerned, free will is one of the main things that is central to our humanity and characteristics of a civilized, free society.
quote: JC had the choice in the garden whether to follow his own will and run away, far away, from the people he knew were coming to kill him; or whether to stay and follow God's plan. He stayed and went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
Was that "free will" or "predestination"?
From God's pov it was predestination; from Jesus' it was free will.
Hi johniam,
Free will is something we do, predestination is something God does.
God predetermines what blessings we will get when we freely will to do it His way.
All of these posts have got me thinking about my motivations as well as the concept of free will... They seem to tie together.
My motivation for doing the things I did while in twi that I am now ashamed of... these motivations were (as Mrs. B said earlier) because of my reality at the time. And these motivations were bred because of my environment, an environment that started as a loving place that actually read the Bible and people who (although seeming a little strange sometimes) genuinely loved God. Slowly the environment changed, and so did my reality. It went from a place where people read the Bible and loved God to a place where I had to be right all the time in order to love God.
My experiences were similar to Mrs. B's... I remember the desire to go into the Corps being shoved down my throat many times - I was told I had a ministry, that God was calling me to go into the WC... It fed my ego, but deep inside, I knew that God had not called me to by WC... it seemed so restrictive. I'm glad I chose to never go WC, but to stay a little meek believer and give to people as I could.
So, I guess in this instance I did not allow my free will be usurped.
BUT - in other cases I was taken advantage of and convinced to do things I knew were not right. For instance, MAing my family, not speaking to them for years and years, and letting myself be convinced that they were evil possessed people who were using their abilities to further the cause of the devil... and deep down I didn't want to do this... I allowed myself to be convinced that they were evil people, and that somehow, by never speaking to them again, I would bring deliverance to their lives. I cried for days after making that decision... because I didn't want to do it.
So, why did I? How was I convinced to hurt those dearest to my heart? How was the choice manipulated? In short, what was my reality at the time?
I wanted to serve God, I wanted to do what was right... and I was afraid - afraid for my family and myself. Afraid that God would withdraw His love and protection from my family's life if I did not stand with the ONE TRUE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD.
Did I have the free will choice? Yes. Did I make the choice I wanted to make? No.
At another point, I was serving in a place that I hated. I hated my job, I hated the place, I hated the weather (the sun didn't shine literally for 21 days straight while I was there), BUT I thought I needed to keep a committment I had made before I knew what I was getting into.
I thought I was serving God. That was my reality. I made choices based on that reality.
But these things were illusions brought about by two distinct things: fear and the desire to do the right thing.
I think the only way I could ever really have the ability to be free is to recognize that I don't have to be "right" with God because He's my dad, and loves me no matter if I make the right choice or the wrong choice. This is standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, not being entangled with the yoke of bondage (legalism, trying to cleanse yourself of all unrighteousness.)
I hope that makes sense. True free will could only come about once the fear of being wrong is eliminated.
2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?
Nice to meet you JavaJane. I am oldiesman.
I disagree with your blanket premise that "we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do"
Well here's at least one person who doesn't see that.
I am of the opinion that unless one in twi was: a) a child, b) mentally retarded, or c) narcotized, one really should accept full responsibility for one's own actions and not wrongly blame others for coercion which I believe to be a form of victim entitlement.
I disagree with your blanket premise that "we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do"
Well here's at least one person who doesn't see that.
I am of the opinion that unless one in twi was: a) a child, b) mentally retarded, or c) narcotized, one really should accept full responsibility for one's own actions and not wrongly blame others for coercion which I believe to be a form of victim entitlement.
How would you define coercion then? Are you saying is no such thing?(outside of a,b and c above)
Didn't vpw teach that you can't go further than you've been taught? If you are only shown two choices, do what the MOG and his Way Corps say, or turn your back on God, what would you pick?
following this logic you stated, I A) don't have to accept responsibility for being born B) don't have to accept responsibility for being raise in twi by my parents and C) Do need to accept responsibility for following what by parents taught me, the teachings of vpw.
Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while.
Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do.
If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave.
You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes.
So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.
I am of the opinion that unless one in twi was: a) a child, b) mentally retarded, or c) narcotized, one really should accept full responsibility for one's own actions and not wrongly blame others for coercion which I believe to be a form of victim entitlement.
At least we're getting SOMEWHERE. Oldies finally admits that there were VICTIMS. Just that they aren't entitled to restitution for one reason or another.
Perfect defense strategy.
"There are no victims."
"well, if there were, they aren't entitled.."
I think you have to look at the facts.. was my involvement really from "free choice"?
Or was it a knee-jerk instinctual reaction, prompted by someone who knew how to take advantage of my baser instincts, using every motivational technique known to the mind of man?
Looking back, it pretty easy to see what happened.
but it wasn't so clear at the time.
You could use the same logic to make the case that it was the fishes fault, that it CHOSE to bite the bait..
but it wouldn't have gotten the hook down it's throat, without the right kind of deception.
Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while.
Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do.
If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave.
You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes.
So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.
Perhaps we should just leave it at deceit. VPW, LCM and the Corps were liars. We freely chose to unknowingly believe a lie.
There's 2 ways to look at the manipulation that twi gave.
One is to say the person rarely was drugged or had a gun placed to their head.
The other is to say that one's view was often manipulated so that one saw the choices as being
roughly equivalent to doing what was told or dying.
I shall clarify.
Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while.
Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do.
[Folks in the corps often were grossly misinformed as to the activities and contents of the corps.
They made a free-will decision based on ex-corps and staff talking it up-sometimes-
as the greatest thing they could possibly do with their lives-
vpw said it was MORE important than going to college,
was more important than ANYTHING someone to do.
It's what GAWD ALMIGHTY wants! Don't you want to do what GAWD wants?
Then people made the free-will decision to enter the program....
...and that decision was based on bad information.
Then came the next level- activities IN the corps.
If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave.
Anyone, technically, could have gotten up at any point in the corps, and said
"I was lied to- this is not what I was told."
When surrounded by one's peers and being heavily indoctrinated, some posters here were told
that they had signed up for A LIFETIME COMMITTMENT TO SERVE IN THE WAY CORPS
and not 4 years of the corps, followed by serving God on their own recognizance-
a LIFETIME DOING WHATEVER TWI TOLD YOU TO DO-
whether MOVE, perform manual labour, and so on, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE-
some posters have pointed out that they were aware they were being hosed,
and regretted, in hindsight, not leaving then.
Why didn't they leave?
Mostly, there was an executed plan to make that as difficult a decision as possible.
Let's say you decide, at THAT moment, that the gross dishonesty is too much- so you're leaving
no matter what. Now, the fun begins.
You're on grounds, in the corps.
You will be told in private that you made a committment-not to twi, but to GAWD ALMIGHTY,
and that leaving the corps was disappointing God, and you'd be walking outside of God's
protection, which meant that you'd be putting the lives of yourself and your family AT RISK
of DEATH or PERMANENT INJURY.
Still leaving? There's the PUBLIC HUMILIATION, where everyone's told in your earshot what
a scummy quitter you are, and unfit and so on.
Still leaving? After you leave, the public humiliation is SPREAD, so you're seen as inferior
when you go home- a leper, to a degree.
That means your ENTIRE FAMILY AND FRIENDS will be told horrible lies about you.
You're in twi, and told to forsake all friends and family who didn't join, so once you had no
friends when it comes to God's Word, and NOW you have no friends, if twi has anything to
say about it.
But, yes, you had the choice to leave, and go home. No one placed a physical gun to your head.
They just destroyed your social life, savaged your walk with God, threatened harm to your
family, and slashed your self-image.
But you had the free will to leave despite all that.
See the two points of view here?
Just because there's no gun, does not mean there's NO COERCION.
You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes.
Turning aside from friends and family (see above), and outside the protection of
GAWD ALMIGHTY-as many were told, some specifically, as in
"Which member of your family do you want to die?"
which, of course, frightened children in earshot out of their wits, and did little
good for the adults.
However, the adults had complete free will to leave.
No one had a gun to their heads.
COERCION does not equal a gun-
then again, some of us consider COERCION to be a big deal on its own,
and WRONG.
So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.
I think JavaJane may having trying to get at the crookedness of leaders in twi right now. They are not men of their words. When you first encounter this, you don't always realize what's going on. It takes time to realize you gotta leave.
Deception, ie., being lied to, is one thing. Coersion or being forced to do something is something else.
Just because someone *only* gives you two choices, that doesn't constitute coersion. Clear threats/intimidation being used in having you accept one of those two choices IS.
That said, that doesn't take away that you were a victim (yeah, yeah, Oldies. I know you don't like that term. So what). You were a victim of being lied to and took advantage of, among other things. Now whether that can translate into legal restitution is something else entirely.
"legal restitution" not exactly sure what that means,(forgive me) but I can tell you legally, a man in uniform is considered a use of force. (just walking into a room wearing it, not intending anything)
Someone using their Way Corps position to get you to do something, ????
Once you admit there was "some" error in twi doctrine (not to mention practice), perhaps we should examine what some of it was. How does this error play in the exercise of free will?
1. You shall be as God. Though not overtly spoken, is this not equivalent to being able to receive ANYTHING from God? Oh, which by the way, has never been proven to really work, to my satisfaction. Maybe George Muller tapped into something, and a few others, but I don't think it was because he was "entitled". But I think this is the error, just find the right promises, push the correct levers, and you have your heart's desire..
2. POWER. Yep, the power to "do", the power to.. be.. the power to speak the holy ghost's words upon command, the power to cast out devils.. power, power, power.
Of course not limited to der vey, by no means. I ran across a woman who disagreed with me on a doctrinal issue. Of course, I MUST be possessed. "out in da name of Jesus, out in the name of Jesus.."
"sorry, I think you are looking for spirits in the wrong person here.."
"out in the name of Jesus, out in the name of Jesus.."
"Lady, you are nuts.."
"OUT, OUT in the name of Jesus.."
Some "power"..
sheesh.
I think the promise of "power", or such ilk, is the very hook buried in a nice tender morsel..
"You will do as we say or we will through you out"
...
Personally, I don't have a problem with them saying that. Again, one put themselves in that situation and if one did not do what was required, one eliminated themselves.
and they'd say this knowing you had nowhere to go
Ummm, I can't say that happened in most cases. Perhaps in a case or two; but I believe they knew that the vast majority of folks leaving the Corps could have gone home and continued in the fellowships if they wanted to. To the best of my knowledge, unless one was a real wacko, one was allowed to re-apply as well.
I think it is their job to use their best efforts to make the arrangements for one to go home or go out to a destination in a safe manner. I do remember one time, while I was out WOW, they let one of our sisters (who also posts here) go home alone who was suffering from severe mental problems. THAT was wrong!
I think it is their job to use their best efforts to make the arrangements for one to go home or go out to a destination in a safe manner. I do remember one time, while I was out WOW, they let one of our sisters (who also posts here) go home alone who was suffering from severe mental problems. THAT was wrong!
A number of times, the record shows they fell far short of that.
So, I'm curious-
the sister who was suffering from severe mental problems,
was she put on a Greyhound bus and sent home (as often happened on-grounds or on the wow field),
or did they arrange a trip to her destination in a safe manner?
I can't tell if the answer was "they put her on a bus", or
"she was sent home safely and I'm using sarcastic humour".
Deception, ie., being lied to, is one thing. Coersion or being forced to do something is something else.
Just because someone *only* gives you two choices, that doesn't constitute coersion. Clear threats/intimidation being used in having you accept one of those two choices IS.
When one is rather convincingly lied-to, and convinced that the only choices are
"stay and take whatever they give you" or
"leave and horrible things will befall you and your family, and everyone will be
told you're a failure",
many people would consider that a form of COERCION.
It is constructed of LIES, DECEIT, MANIPULATION and DISHONESTY through and through,
but it was intended to coerce, and was successful in many cases.
That said, that doesn't take away that you were a victim (yeah, yeah, Oldies. I know you don't like that term. So what). You were a victim of being lied to and took advantage of, among other things. Now whether that can translate into legal restitution is something else entirely.
A husband and wife with a slew of beautiful children commit themselves to the Word of God. They sell everything they have and leave their eldest behind who has never been out on her own in order to go into the WC to "serve God better." They pull their other children out of their schools (two of them are in high school, one almost ready to graduate) and head into the Corps. At the advice of their leadership and because she has no where else to go, the eldest child heads out on a mission to bring the Word to the World.
While there at the root locale, the family is kicked out due to a disobedient child who is "disobeying" with the leadership's kid. They are sent away in disgrace to a completely different area where they know no one. They live like homeless vagrants, but they don't tell their daughter, because they don't want her to stumble in her own believing while is is serving the Word to others...
Once they are finally settled, the "disobedient" child becomes severely depressed because that child is the cause of th evil that has happened to their family. They watch him closely, fearing suicide. But, when the child becomes involved in drugs (in order to mask the pain and guilt they feel) the parents are told by their WC to kick thier child out because he won't obey.
So they do. The child is left alone before they are even 16 years old. This child becomes a drug dealer to support theirself. They end up in gangs, and eventually in prison.
Meanwhile, the parents try once again to go serve God as WC. But, hey, once they get there, now the wife is considered to be headstrong and difficult, and the husband is told that he is "ballless" and needs to take their remaining child (the rest are on their own now) away from his wife, and divorce her in order to serve God.
This couple was made MA. Their eldest, trying to serve God the best she can, gets a phone call from her WC telling her that her parents are MA, and that it is up to her how she wants to handle the situation. She speaks with her parents. They tell her of the terrible wrongs done to their family. She tells them to write to the MOG and tell him, because he must not know what is happening! They do.
A month later, their daughter gets a letter from the man who made her parents MA and caused these injustices. It tells her that her family's conscience has been seared with a hot iron... that they are evil... But the stand of their daughter (mind you, she has been "raised in the Word") could save their lives.
So, in order to save her family, and at the encouragement of her personal leadership, the daughter does not speak to them for 5 years...
Does this sound wrong to you? It happened. The Word of God was twisted. It was used not as God intended, but as a weapon against His children. It was wrong.
Did I have a choice? Yes.
Could I have walked away? Yes.
Did I think it would result in calamity for my family and possibly their deaths? Yes.
Seems very similar to having a gun pointed at them, only I couldn't see the gun... That gun was God.
And what about the child who was thrown in prison? Well, here's a happy ending... That child is now an adult who has been through a lot, and has a lot to give. This individual exercised their free will and overcame their addiction and got out of the gangs.
In many ways, twi was my addiction. GSC is my rehab.
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johniam
quote: JC had the choice in the garden whether to follow his own will and run away, far away, from the people he knew were coming to kill him; or whether to stay and follow God's plan. He stayed and went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
Was that "free will" or "predestination"?
From God's pov it was predestination; from Jesus' it was free will.
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GarthP2000
One fallacy/misunderstanding a lot of people get in applying the concept of 'free will' in this particular topic is thinking that, because it was free will that we used to participate in TWI (and in other 'mind controlling cults') that that somehow made it OUR fault that all the abusive crap happened to us. (Momentus was particularly effective in applying that manipulative guilt trip on people, especially when it came to holding them accountable for their abuses)
That is not the case at ALL. Ie., YOU are responsible (notice I did not say necessarily 'to blame') for what YOU do. The OTHER person/people are responsible for what THEY do. ... Example: I am responsible for going to twigs/taking the classes/taking further involvment in TWI and how I responded to the lies and control, until I had it up to here and decided to leave. The leaders who lied/tried to control my life are responsible for THEIR actions and responses in that direction.
A sidenote here for those who don't put much stock in freedom of will: As far as I am concerned, free will is one of the main things that is central to our humanity and characteristics of a civilized, free society.
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Ham
I dunno. I think sometimes "free will" is forfeited, chosing the easy way out, not necessarily the correct way.
Instincts do tend to get in the way..
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Mike
Hi johniam,
Free will is something we do, predestination is something God does.
God predetermines what blessings we will get when we freely will to do it His way.
...paraphrasing Romans 8
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JavaJane
All of these posts have got me thinking about my motivations as well as the concept of free will... They seem to tie together.
My motivation for doing the things I did while in twi that I am now ashamed of... these motivations were (as Mrs. B said earlier) because of my reality at the time. And these motivations were bred because of my environment, an environment that started as a loving place that actually read the Bible and people who (although seeming a little strange sometimes) genuinely loved God. Slowly the environment changed, and so did my reality. It went from a place where people read the Bible and loved God to a place where I had to be right all the time in order to love God.
My experiences were similar to Mrs. B's... I remember the desire to go into the Corps being shoved down my throat many times - I was told I had a ministry, that God was calling me to go into the WC... It fed my ego, but deep inside, I knew that God had not called me to by WC... it seemed so restrictive. I'm glad I chose to never go WC, but to stay a little meek believer and give to people as I could.
So, I guess in this instance I did not allow my free will be usurped.
BUT - in other cases I was taken advantage of and convinced to do things I knew were not right. For instance, MAing my family, not speaking to them for years and years, and letting myself be convinced that they were evil possessed people who were using their abilities to further the cause of the devil... and deep down I didn't want to do this... I allowed myself to be convinced that they were evil people, and that somehow, by never speaking to them again, I would bring deliverance to their lives. I cried for days after making that decision... because I didn't want to do it.
So, why did I? How was I convinced to hurt those dearest to my heart? How was the choice manipulated? In short, what was my reality at the time?
I wanted to serve God, I wanted to do what was right... and I was afraid - afraid for my family and myself. Afraid that God would withdraw His love and protection from my family's life if I did not stand with the ONE TRUE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD.
Did I have the free will choice? Yes. Did I make the choice I wanted to make? No.
At another point, I was serving in a place that I hated. I hated my job, I hated the place, I hated the weather (the sun didn't shine literally for 21 days straight while I was there), BUT I thought I needed to keep a committment I had made before I knew what I was getting into.
I thought I was serving God. That was my reality. I made choices based on that reality.
But these things were illusions brought about by two distinct things: fear and the desire to do the right thing.
I think the only way I could ever really have the ability to be free is to recognize that I don't have to be "right" with God because He's my dad, and loves me no matter if I make the right choice or the wrong choice. This is standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, not being entangled with the yoke of bondage (legalism, trying to cleanse yourself of all unrighteousness.)
I hope that makes sense. True free will could only come about once the fear of being wrong is eliminated.
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oldiesman
Nice to meet you JavaJane. I am oldiesman.
I disagree with your blanket premise that "we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do"
Well here's at least one person who doesn't see that.
I am of the opinion that unless one in twi was: a) a child, b) mentally retarded, or c) narcotized, one really should accept full responsibility for one's own actions and not wrongly blame others for coercion which I believe to be a form of victim entitlement.
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Bolshevik
How would you define coercion then? Are you saying is no such thing?(outside of a,b and c above)
Didn't vpw teach that you can't go further than you've been taught? If you are only shown two choices, do what the MOG and his Way Corps say, or turn your back on God, what would you pick?
following this logic you stated, I A) don't have to accept responsibility for being born B) don't have to accept responsibility for being raise in twi by my parents and C) Do need to accept responsibility for following what by parents taught me, the teachings of vpw.
Makes sense. Maybe.
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oldiesman
Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while.
Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do.
If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave.
You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes.
So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.
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Ham
At least we're getting SOMEWHERE. Oldies finally admits that there were VICTIMS. Just that they aren't entitled to restitution for one reason or another.
Perfect defense strategy.
"There are no victims."
"well, if there were, they aren't entitled.."
I think you have to look at the facts.. was my involvement really from "free choice"?
Or was it a knee-jerk instinctual reaction, prompted by someone who knew how to take advantage of my baser instincts, using every motivational technique known to the mind of man?
Looking back, it pretty easy to see what happened.
but it wasn't so clear at the time.
You could use the same logic to make the case that it was the fishes fault, that it CHOSE to bite the bait..
but it wouldn't have gotten the hook down it's throat, without the right kind of deception.
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Bolshevik
Perhaps we should just leave it at deceit. VPW, LCM and the Corps were liars. We freely chose to unknowingly believe a lie.
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oldiesman
I can go along with that.
Some twi doctrine was false.
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WordWolf
There's 2 ways to look at the manipulation that twi gave.
One is to say the person rarely was drugged or had a gun placed to their head.
The other is to say that one's view was often manipulated so that one saw the choices as being
roughly equivalent to doing what was told or dying.
I shall clarify.
[Folks in the corps often were grossly misinformed as to the activities and contents of the corps.
They made a free-will decision based on ex-corps and staff talking it up-sometimes-
as the greatest thing they could possibly do with their lives-
vpw said it was MORE important than going to college,
was more important than ANYTHING someone to do.
It's what GAWD ALMIGHTY wants! Don't you want to do what GAWD wants?
Then people made the free-will decision to enter the program....
...and that decision was based on bad information.
Then came the next level- activities IN the corps.
Anyone, technically, could have gotten up at any point in the corps, and said"I was lied to- this is not what I was told."
When surrounded by one's peers and being heavily indoctrinated, some posters here were told
that they had signed up for A LIFETIME COMMITTMENT TO SERVE IN THE WAY CORPS
and not 4 years of the corps, followed by serving God on their own recognizance-
a LIFETIME DOING WHATEVER TWI TOLD YOU TO DO-
whether MOVE, perform manual labour, and so on, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE-
some posters have pointed out that they were aware they were being hosed,
and regretted, in hindsight, not leaving then.
Why didn't they leave?
Mostly, there was an executed plan to make that as difficult a decision as possible.
Let's say you decide, at THAT moment, that the gross dishonesty is too much- so you're leaving
no matter what. Now, the fun begins.
You're on grounds, in the corps.
You will be told in private that you made a committment-not to twi, but to GAWD ALMIGHTY,
and that leaving the corps was disappointing God, and you'd be walking outside of God's
protection, which meant that you'd be putting the lives of yourself and your family AT RISK
of DEATH or PERMANENT INJURY.
Still leaving? There's the PUBLIC HUMILIATION, where everyone's told in your earshot what
a scummy quitter you are, and unfit and so on.
Still leaving? After you leave, the public humiliation is SPREAD, so you're seen as inferior
when you go home- a leper, to a degree.
That means your ENTIRE FAMILY AND FRIENDS will be told horrible lies about you.
You're in twi, and told to forsake all friends and family who didn't join, so once you had no
friends when it comes to God's Word, and NOW you have no friends, if twi has anything to
say about it.
But, yes, you had the choice to leave, and go home. No one placed a physical gun to your head.
They just destroyed your social life, savaged your walk with God, threatened harm to your
family, and slashed your self-image.
But you had the free will to leave despite all that.
See the two points of view here?
Just because there's no gun, does not mean there's NO COERCION.
Turning aside from friends and family (see above), and outside the protection of
GAWD ALMIGHTY-as many were told, some specifically, as in
"Which member of your family do you want to die?"
which, of course, frightened children in earshot out of their wits, and did little
good for the adults.
However, the adults had complete free will to leave.
No one had a gun to their heads.
COERCION does not equal a gun-
then again, some of us consider COERCION to be a big deal on its own,
and WRONG.
BOTH concepts are true of all twi activities,
especially the staff and corps,
and the entire group from the mid-90s onward.
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Bolshevik
I think JavaJane may having trying to get at the crookedness of leaders in twi right now. They are not men of their words. When you first encounter this, you don't always realize what's going on. It takes time to realize you gotta leave.
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GarthP2000
Deception, ie., being lied to, is one thing. Coersion or being forced to do something is something else.
Just because someone *only* gives you two choices, that doesn't constitute coersion. Clear threats/intimidation being used in having you accept one of those two choices IS.
That said, that doesn't take away that you were a victim (yeah, yeah, Oldies. I know you don't like that term. So what). You were a victim of being lied to and took advantage of, among other things. Now whether that can translate into legal restitution is something else entirely.
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WordWolf
I think this is the best summary I've read to date.
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Bolshevik
"legal restitution" not exactly sure what that means,(forgive me) but I can tell you legally, a man in uniform is considered a use of force. (just walking into a room wearing it, not intending anything)
Someone using their Way Corps position to get you to do something, ????
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Ham
Once you admit there was "some" error in twi doctrine (not to mention practice), perhaps we should examine what some of it was. How does this error play in the exercise of free will?
1. You shall be as God. Though not overtly spoken, is this not equivalent to being able to receive ANYTHING from God? Oh, which by the way, has never been proven to really work, to my satisfaction. Maybe George Muller tapped into something, and a few others, but I don't think it was because he was "entitled". But I think this is the error, just find the right promises, push the correct levers, and you have your heart's desire..
2. POWER. Yep, the power to "do", the power to.. be.. the power to speak the holy ghost's words upon command, the power to cast out devils.. power, power, power.
Of course not limited to der vey, by no means. I ran across a woman who disagreed with me on a doctrinal issue. Of course, I MUST be possessed. "out in da name of Jesus, out in the name of Jesus.."
"sorry, I think you are looking for spirits in the wrong person here.."
"out in the name of Jesus, out in the name of Jesus.."
"Lady, you are nuts.."
"OUT, OUT in the name of Jesus.."
Some "power"..
sheesh.
I think the promise of "power", or such ilk, is the very hook buried in a nice tender morsel..
Appealed to baser instincts. Not free will.
I kinda agree with Skinner on a lot of this..
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Bolshevik
Perhaps instead of coercion we should use leaderships words, "ultimatum"
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oldiesman
There were ultimatims too, here's one:
VP said "you can stay in the Corps as long as your money holds out" or words to that effect,
now do you consider that coercion? maybe it is, but I don't even consider that wrong.
It is a statement of fact.
It is a warning.
"If you don't have the money to pay for this program, you have to leave."
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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Bolshevik
I was thinking about more direct ultimatums. i.e. "Your husband or the ministry(and the ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry. . )"
"You will do as we say or we will through you out" "But what did I do?" "Answer the question"
and they'd say this knowing you had nowhere to go
They use the situations people are in against them
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Ham
Where the rubber hit the road, this was the ONLY power they had.
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oldiesman
Personally, I don't have a problem with them saying that. Again, one put themselves in that situation and if one did not do what was required, one eliminated themselves.
Ummm, I can't say that happened in most cases. Perhaps in a case or two; but I believe they knew that the vast majority of folks leaving the Corps could have gone home and continued in the fellowships if they wanted to. To the best of my knowledge, unless one was a real wacko, one was allowed to re-apply as well.
I think it is their job to use their best efforts to make the arrangements for one to go home or go out to a destination in a safe manner. I do remember one time, while I was out WOW, they let one of our sisters (who also posts here) go home alone who was suffering from severe mental problems. THAT was wrong!
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WordWolf
A number of times, the record shows they fell far short of that.
So, I'm curious-
the sister who was suffering from severe mental problems,
was she put on a Greyhound bus and sent home (as often happened on-grounds or on the wow field),
or did they arrange a trip to her destination in a safe manner?
I can't tell if the answer was "they put her on a bus", or
"she was sent home safely and I'm using sarcastic humour".
When one is rather convincingly lied-to, and convinced that the only choices are
"stay and take whatever they give you" or
"leave and horrible things will befall you and your family, and everyone will be
told you're a failure",
many people would consider that a form of COERCION.
It is constructed of LIES, DECEIT, MANIPULATION and DISHONESTY through and through,
but it was intended to coerce, and was successful in many cases.
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JavaJane
How about this for choice?
A husband and wife with a slew of beautiful children commit themselves to the Word of God. They sell everything they have and leave their eldest behind who has never been out on her own in order to go into the WC to "serve God better." They pull their other children out of their schools (two of them are in high school, one almost ready to graduate) and head into the Corps. At the advice of their leadership and because she has no where else to go, the eldest child heads out on a mission to bring the Word to the World.
While there at the root locale, the family is kicked out due to a disobedient child who is "disobeying" with the leadership's kid. They are sent away in disgrace to a completely different area where they know no one. They live like homeless vagrants, but they don't tell their daughter, because they don't want her to stumble in her own believing while is is serving the Word to others...
Once they are finally settled, the "disobedient" child becomes severely depressed because that child is the cause of th evil that has happened to their family. They watch him closely, fearing suicide. But, when the child becomes involved in drugs (in order to mask the pain and guilt they feel) the parents are told by their WC to kick thier child out because he won't obey.
So they do. The child is left alone before they are even 16 years old. This child becomes a drug dealer to support theirself. They end up in gangs, and eventually in prison.
Meanwhile, the parents try once again to go serve God as WC. But, hey, once they get there, now the wife is considered to be headstrong and difficult, and the husband is told that he is "ballless" and needs to take their remaining child (the rest are on their own now) away from his wife, and divorce her in order to serve God.
This couple was made MA. Their eldest, trying to serve God the best she can, gets a phone call from her WC telling her that her parents are MA, and that it is up to her how she wants to handle the situation. She speaks with her parents. They tell her of the terrible wrongs done to their family. She tells them to write to the MOG and tell him, because he must not know what is happening! They do.
A month later, their daughter gets a letter from the man who made her parents MA and caused these injustices. It tells her that her family's conscience has been seared with a hot iron... that they are evil... But the stand of their daughter (mind you, she has been "raised in the Word") could save their lives.
So, in order to save her family, and at the encouragement of her personal leadership, the daughter does not speak to them for 5 years...
Does this sound wrong to you? It happened. The Word of God was twisted. It was used not as God intended, but as a weapon against His children. It was wrong.
Did I have a choice? Yes.
Could I have walked away? Yes.
Did I think it would result in calamity for my family and possibly their deaths? Yes.
Seems very similar to having a gun pointed at them, only I couldn't see the gun... That gun was God.
And what about the child who was thrown in prison? Well, here's a happy ending... That child is now an adult who has been through a lot, and has a lot to give. This individual exercised their free will and overcame their addiction and got out of the gangs.
In many ways, twi was my addiction. GSC is my rehab.
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