Spelling & Grammar Nazis

[Belle]

How apropos that this article appeared this morning on MSN after several discussions on here about the same thing.

Personally, I'm a spelling and grammar freak. Whenever anyone in the office wants to know how to spell a word, a good synonym for a word or about a grammatical rule they always come to me. (I am, however, very well aware of the fact that I'm a comma splicing sinner but I warn folks about that before helping them. I write like I talk and tend to put commas where my pauses are.)

I never, but never correct anyone's spelling or grammar unless they ask. It just doesn't matter to some people and others are merely doing the best they can. Besides that, we all have our bad days, miss strokes on the keyboard, etc. I also just tend to shy away from "correcting" folks after spending ten years of doing it from a religious zealot viewpoint. I'm tired of judging people and pointing out where they are wrong, unless I've been asked to or get paid for it.

Seems that's the predominant consensus from this article:

Barry Leiba, a technical researcher at IBM and author of the delightful blog "Staring At Empty Pages," said there are "exactly four" situations where it's all right to correct someone's grammar: (1) when you're an English teacher correcting a student, (2) when you're coaching a nonnative speaker who's asked for help, (3) when someone else has asked for coaching, or (4) when someone puts the equivalent of a "kick me" sign on her back.

As he explains it, "We have, at work, an online discussion group called 'Nitpick Forum.' Anyone who posts there is implicitly giving permission to be torn to shreds."

Remind me not to go there. Likewise, Hilary Davies should probably steer clear. She's a professional proofreader and copy editor who thinks you should not correct anyone's grammar unless you're being paid to do so. And even then, there are caveats.

"As a student," she said, "I remember vividly struggling to write a thank-you note in Russian for a gift I'd received from my Russian tutor. To my utter mortification and indignation, he returned my carefully crafted note covered in red ink, completely missing the point of the note and focusing instead on what was wrong with the way I'd written it."

When to correct grammar mistakes

Some of those rules pounded into our heads by well-meaning English teachers aren't right. For example, it's fine to end sentences in prepositions, just like it's fine to split infinitives. Incomplete sentences? Fine and dandy (even if they're not recommended for business correspondence).

Between you and "I," though? That's as wrong as orange juice and toothpaste--and may that always be the case.

Once you are certain you're correct, you could follow Joy Weaver's five rules for pointing out grammatical peccadilloes:

1. Do it if you're being paid to do it.

2. Do it if someone has asked you to do it.

3. Do it privately.

4. Do it to spare a friend who is about to appear in the spotlight for some reason.

5. Make sure you don't talk down to someone while you're correcting their grammar.

edited to add: I suppose a link to the actual article would help....

Edited June 25, 2007 by Belle

[griffp]

Interesting topic Belle, I was in a meeting the other day with some egghead type computer programmers and one of the guys was going off on how people didn't understand them, well the whole room was ready to burst into laughter because his grammar was atrocious.

Sometimes I feel like I am a professional email reader and let me tell you that the English teachers in this country have failed miserably. No offense to our dedicated teachers who most likely are ready to flame me.

I probably read 300 plus emails a day at work and respond to about half, my only rule of faith and practice is at the very least use a spell checker. Thank God GSC has a spell checker or I would be embarrassed by this post.

I will be a guinea pig for anyone who feels compelled to correct this posting and please don't hold back give it to me with all you have. I always enjoy seeing how I can do things better even little things like posting on GSC.

We as a nation would do well to adopt standards about language but I am afraid that the entire topic crosses over into culture and political correctness. I "axe" you is it wrong to teach that the word is "ask", or is it racist?

There are numerous examples of these types of errors in our country, to what extent should we attack the issue or should we just let it go until dialectics are the rule and not cohesive speech.

Bring on the critics, I love it.

God Bless

[J0nny Ling0]

Interesting. I am by no means a scholar when it comes to grammar. I was a spelling bee winner once, and as a 3d grader, beat the entire fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, all except for Tracy Shlechter, with whom I came to a stand off. And so, we were both declared winners, and it was way cool for me being a 3d grader. But as time has gone on, I have become rusty, but still spell fairly well, and because I am a prodigious reader, have a decent handle on grammar.

Now, when it comes to the forum here, we all know that there are "typos" made, and that there are those whose grammar isn't particularly that good. And, we usually let things slide because we are here for reasons other than correcting eachother's grammar. But, when it comes to my wife and kids, typing e-mails and etc, I have been strict in telling them that they should use proper grammar when it comes to at least capitalizing proper nouns, the beginnings of sentences, etc. I tell them; "What, now that there is the internet, all grammar goes out the window?" I believe that if one practices bad grammar on the net, one will develope bad habits off the net. And so, that it what I tell my family, and, I believe the same should go for everybody. BUT, folks out here in Cyberland are not my family, and so they can do as they choose. But, that's my opinion anyway...

[doojable]

There's a spell checker?? I don't see one. Which button is it?

See I would use one if I had it....my major glitches come when I post in too big a hurry or don't re-read what I've written.

[rhino]

Good points Belle ... one exception ... I always like to point out errors if they make for humorous unintended meanings. I can't think of a great example at the moment. :)

I'll add ... I was surprised once to receive a quite eloquent and polite letter from an uncle that had not finished high school. He was stubborn, "backwoodsy", and not big on cleanliness, but this letter was excellent. With email and forums taking on more of a conversational tone with abbreviations and all, it seems actually composing and structuring a good letter has become "old school", or a lost art.

Of course additionally, education today is not the same, and students are allowed to "feel good" about themselves and their own unique cultural spellings.

Edited June 25, 2007 by rhino

[dmiller]

There's a spell checker?? I don't see one. Which button is it?

See I would use one if I had it....my major glitches come when I post in too big a hurry or don't re-read what I've written.

Dooj -- what browser are you using??

Firefox has it built in, and just underlined your name as a mis-spelling!

(EFT)

Edited June 25, 2007 by dmiller

[Rocky]

Dooj,

It's a button on the upper right side of the "replying to..." box. It looks like a checkmark with "ABC" inscribed over it.

[doojable]

Dooj -- what browser are you using??

Firefox has it built in, and just underlined your named as a mis-spelling!

I use Netscape - but I thought grippf said that GSC had the spell checker.....

I'm soooo confused... :blink: :wacko: :wacko:

[Rocky]

I use Netscape - but I thought grippf said that GSC had the spell checker.....

I'm soooo confused... :blink: :wacko: :wacko:

He DID.

[doojable]

Dooj,

It's a button on the upper right side of the "replying to..." box. It looks like a checkmark with "ABC" inscribed over it.

Thanks Rocky - but I don't have it.

Now I'm sad....

[Rocky]

Thanks Rocky - but I don't have it.

Now I'm sad....

You SHOULD have it. It is a GSC feature. It's just to the left of the "undo" and "re-do" buttons, which are just above the buttons for justifying paragraphs (i.e. right justify, and one for left AND right justify at the same time).

It's NOT a feature of the "fast reply" box.

[doojable]

You SHOULD have it. It is a GSC feature. It's just to the left of the "undo" and "re-do" buttons, which are just above the buttons for justifying paragraphs (i.e. right justify, and one for left AND right justify at the same time).

It's NOT a feature of the "fast reply" box.

OK - I toggled between "Rich Text" and the "Standard" editor - but still no spell checker...

All I have is a way to choose the color of my text...

Perhaps I ticked off a mod...

[washingtonweather]

I don't think that those capable of good grammar and spelling care about it as much as that same group would have cared 50 years ago.

I think the teachers try, but if the students don't really care--well

[dmiller]

You SHOULD have it. It is a GSC feature. It's just to the left of the "undo" and "re-do" buttons, which are just above the buttons for justifying paragraphs (i.e. right justify, and one for left AND right justify at the same time).

It's NOT a feature of the "fast reply" box.

Odd. I don't have it either. The closest thing to the left of the refresh buttons is the color key.

[Ham]

I think parents play a pretty big role in the development of a person's grammar. If they merely speak proper grammar, and use proper grammer when interacting with said person, by the time they are six or so proper language skills will be wired in.

The real solution isn't to correct anyone.. just shoot people who cannot speak ordinary proper english, and end the cycle..

Edited June 25, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[T-Bone]

Thanks Rocky - but I don't have it.

Now I'm sad....

Odd. I don't have it either. The closest thing to the left of the refresh buttons is the color key.

I don't know if this still applies to GSC's new look - but before that - the first time I clicked on the ABC spell checker button on the posting window - it asked me if I wanted to download iSpell - which I did.

Edited June 25, 2007 by T-Bone

[rhino]

The real solution isn't to correct anyone.. just shoot people who cannot speak ordinary proper english, and end the cycle..

Sure, I've read about you guys ... bad grammar fighters

On firefox, I just get squiggly red lines under mispelled words, though not always, for some reason.

Edited June 25, 2007 by rhino

[pond]

the spell check is there, in the right hand corner.

you have to down load it from the ie page to install it.

[GeorgeStGeorge]

Personally, I'm a spelling and grammar freak. Whenever anyone in the office wants to know how to spell a word, a good synonym for a word or about a grammatical rule they always come to me.

Note: anyone is a singular pronoun; they is plural. Correct grammar would require the use of he or she (or the more PC he/she) instead of they.

(I am, however, very well aware of the fact that I'm a comma splicing sinner but I warn folks about that before helping them. I write like I talk and tend to put commas where my pauses are.)

Note: like is a preposition. Correct grammar here requires the conjunction as.

I never, but never correct anyone's spelling or grammar unless they ask.

Note: see above

Sorry, Belle. I couldn't resist. Please excuse the fact that I do not know how to break up a post into individual quotes.

George

[pond]

after you install it on your computer , you have to install it on greasepot. it works.

[sprawled out]

Sorry, Belle. I couldn't resist.

George

actually, george, both are accepted usage today. (i'm a copywriter, and have been 'round and 'round on these two--and many others! welcome to the 21st century.)

Edited June 25, 2007 by sprawled out

[Linda Z]

actually, george, both are accepted usage today. (i'm a copywriter, and have been 'round and 'round on these two--and many others! welcome to the 21st century.)

Sorry, Sprawled, but I would have to disagree. I've seen lots of changes in usage in my 20+ years as an editor/copy editor, but it is still incorrect to use "they" with a singular antecedent. That rule is broken more and more often as time goes by, so although we might grow accustomed to hearing it that way, it's still incorrect. In the publicaitons I work on, we use "he or she" or, if possible, we change the antecedent to a plural so that "they" is correct.

I suppose if you're not going by the letter of the law, "like" in the context cited is okay. But technically, George is correct on that one, too.

Writers tend to be a lot more loosey-goosey with the rules of grammer and syntax than editors. I've done a fair amount of writing for publication, too, but I'm still an editor at heart and admittedly adjust to shifts in the language more slowly than the average writer probably does.

Example: I'm still trying to recover from "impact" as a verb (only another editor could understand the depth of my pain). And if I hear one more newscaster say, "The neighbors told Joe and I that the arrested man was 'just a regular guy,' I'll scream.

Back to the original topic: I rarely, rarely correct anyone's grammar unless it's part of my work. I certainly don't always write perfectly when posting on the Internet, despite my occupation. And I sure don't think it's my duty to criticize.

I do admit that there are certain errors that occur over and over on GS that drive me a little nuts inside, but I keep it to myself. :D

[Mister P-Mosh]

This isn't entirely related to the topic at hand.

There's a guy that I work with that goes to lunch many days at the same restaurant. It's a small middle eastern deli in the back of a middle eastern grocery store, and they have the best rice dishes you can imagine (the hummus is great too.) This guy becomes a bit of a regular, and starts trying to ask the owner what spices are used in the rice, and the owner of course refuses to tell him. This ends up causing a comparison between the owner of that restaurant and the "soup nazi" from Seinfeld. This becomes the new in joke around work with those of us that occasionally go to lunch at this place.

Anyway, to make a long story short, my coworker buys some rice to take home to his wife in Dallas. He also buys a disposable styrofoam cooler to keep it in. For whatever reason, he thinks he is being funny so he writes the words "RICE NATZI" (yes, the t is there) on the cooler in huge letters. Then he goes to the airport.

So what kind of person would want to be associated with any facet of nazism, to the point of writing it on their property and going to the airport? Even worse, I think the term could be offensive to a lot more people. A Chinese person might take the "rice nazi" phrase to be in reference to them. Or perhaps someone would think he is referring to Rice university. In any case, the whole "nazi" thing seems a bit extreme.

[Free Soul]

Mr. Hammeroni, you are SO right about the parents influence - I've had students that persisted in saying such things as "it just don't matter" or "I shoulda went", etc. Then I meet the parents & find out they speak the exact same way. It's all modeling, & the parents are around the child a lot longer than the teachers are. So I tell the kids, you can sound like a hick or you can sound like an educated person; your choice. I say it in a friendly way, & let them know what I expect in the classroom.

As to Belle's question, I think it's like unsolicited advice of any kind.

[excathedra]

in normal everyday life, i correct my son

at work, i'm a professional

here.....

i'm not trying to impact anyone