One of the greatest things I learned in PFAL, was that I was born again, heaven bound and all hell can't stop me from going. Sealed with holy spirit. Born a new creature, in Christ. That God wouldn't (and in fact COULDN'T) disown me, because of my sins. That I will ALWAYS be His child. This is comforting.
No kiddin. Man, that's a doozy! And just before I ever went to twig, I'd met these people who called themselves "The Forever Family". A nice name for some Christian people I'spose. But, when they asked me to come to their fellowship or whatever, they told me that when I got there, they would have me lie down on the floor and begin confessing all my sins in order to become saved. And when they felt that I had confessed all of my sins (confess 'em all? I couldn't remember 'em all!), they would then (all of them) lay their hands on me and pray for God to save me through Jesus Christ. And, they went on to say, after I asked them; "What next?", that I could live with them and lead a pure Christian life so that I could "stay saved". And so, I couldn't agree more with the above quote regarding something I learned in PFAL which I still believe to this day...
And don't worry White Dove, I know how easy it is to get tangled up with that bunch...
so you guys do not have to worry one little bit about "staying saved" as JOHNNY put it hell yeah the pfal class took care of that
no worries in life at all now man.
free sailing!! good freaking class information a real keeper.
why in hell would anyone be NOBLE or do the right thing then?
hmm
it sure as H makes it alot easier to screw up doesnt it?
As long as you do not metion it ever again no one ever knows what goes on behind close doors, and that pesky annoying thought of God might have seen or been aware of it is no longer a problem he wont disown you and yep always forgiven.
keep on keeping on doing what ya need to do !!
a free ride with absolutly no accountability not even to God, HE cant disown you and your always forgiven have at it whatever you want !!!
So Dove let me get this straight - I'm really asking here...
Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)
It may be it may not be it is words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet that showed up on a anti way site. No I do not accept everything I read on the net as truth it may be the gospel truth it may be biased BS who can know?
This is a good point, Dove. I have a follow up question for you, but first a point or two of my own...
Catcup has made a big point of how she knew (knows?) M personally very well around the time described in M's account, therefore she know's M's account is true. I think that is a good reason to believe someone. It of course goes way beyond "words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet". Quite some time ago, Linda Z made the same point (on the start of a thread entitled "Why some don't get the abuse stories"), that she knew the person who gave an account, and therefore believed her account.
Obviously, Dove, others attach importance, as you do, to personal non anonymous testimony. So, maybe we dont have that much reason for conflict here?
So, my question, Dove...if you had first hand personal testimony from someone whose name you knew, perhaps from someone whom you knew well, would you accept it? have you tried to learn more with the attitued that you would accept it if you got it?
We are dealing, I believe, with a described personal hurt which is beyond what either of us can conceive. I don't know if you could really get that personal testimony (if you really wanted it). I know that you don't have a hope of getting it if you give the impression that you wouldn't believe first hand testimony even if you had it.
I have tried, I thought in all honesty, and despite that, on one occasion I got just that response...that I wouldn't believe first hand testimony if I wouldn't accept the person's second hand account. This response from a person whose name I knew; in fact from one of the very few GSers with whom I have had personal non cyber contact, albeit minimal and over the phone. from a poster I have respected. So it's not easy. But if you demand personal non anonymous non cyber testimony, would you be willing to give it credibility?
I may get caught in the crossfire; hit from both sides for this...dunno why I keep trying.
lifted I think your right and i have said it from the beginning
we all pick and chose who we trust and believe.
the girls chose the wrong one in the motor coach.
is that wrong or a mistake? i think the latter.
martindale wanted a loyalty letter from the corps because he needed to trust who he had to work with.
many couldnt cope with that fact.
but it is a fact of life.
some people live in this place of I DO NOT TRUST PEOPLE jesus never trusted people , but he continued to work and help and love them.
but at the end of the day how lonely is the person who can say that? we are not Jesus Christ and he commands we love one another i think it is difficult to love one or help one if we do not trust one another. they often say it is about not trusting people but it isnt it is really about not trusting Jesus to see us through in circumstances and in realtionships.
no one is trust worthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not.
clearly white dove has said he doesnt agree with cat cups account or testimoiny so trying to convince him other wise if futile.
no one is trust worthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not.
Lifted, why does it bother you so much??? I must assume that you are referring to me...and me refusing to give you names of people that wished to remain annonymous. IF they had wanted others to know, they would have posted themselves to the forums as a whole. You put me in a very bad position then. It was also a little unsetteling to be pushed for private information.
I explained then, I could not give you the name of source of my information. You just won`t let it drop....the story though I was given permission by the person to relate (because it was so similar to mine) was so personal and embaressing that the person who had shared it with me ASKED that I not reveal their name.
Dove and Jonny and Johniam, and oldies calloused regard and cruel behavior is a prime example of exactly WHY she didn`t want her name used. As you have seen here.....a perfect example of personal first hand testimony NOT being good enough for some ..... and the girls whom share it have their reputations, their characters and their judgement brought into question. The fact that they were young, that they trusted their minister, that they were in many cases drugged...that there are multiple first hand accounts that are strikingly similar....it just won`t be enough for a person whom is afraid to question their beliefs.
For some, it will NEVER be enough.....THAT was what I told you when you pressed for identities that were not mine to reveal. It kind of bothers me that you keep referring to this year after year like it was some kind of personal insult to you....it wasn`t it was what it was.....Me refusing to breach someone elses trust. I am sorry that my answere has bothered you so.
This thread has been high jacked by the Usual Suspects. Be advised: there will be no return to the previously scheduled topic
Jonny - you can be such a ...
Ok - Here's something I remember from my time in rez:
J*hn Sch*inh*it was teaching some branch meeting He asked a the group, "What did you learn this morning when you read the Word?" Hands flew up (not mine) and answers started pouring in:
Corps: I learned I was seated in the heavenlies.
J: What?! You didn't know that already?
Corps: I learned I was born again.
J: You're in the Corps - a Christian leadership training program - you came here without knowing you were born again!?
As you can imagine, the hands started going down pretty quickly. The point is that learning something involves getting new information.
What did I learn from PFAL? Not much really. I had most of the info already given to me from my upbringing. I guess you can say that I learned how to research the Bible. But then again - since I don't place high value on a lot of those skills anymore - well why would I make a big deal out of it? It was very clear to me when I picked up a copy of Bullinger's How to Study the Bible that most of the class was lifted. That told me that the information was out there and I just found one of the various ways of acquiring it.
Why do threads like this ultimately end up in the same mode? Perhaps this is why:
It is hard for many people to separate the good from the bad. (I'm NOT pointing fingers here!) It is very hard for many more people to say they learned anything when they see in hindsight that PFAL was a portal into a ministry that ended in pain and dispair for many of their family and friends. It's one thing to start out on a road not knowing where it will end. It's quite another to talk about a great "road trip" when you know that the end of the story ends in disaster.
So, my question, Dove...if you had first hand personal testimony from someone whose name you knew, perhaps from someone whom you knew well, would you accept it? have you tried to learn more with the attitude that you would accept it if you got it?
That's a fair question lifted up of course we all would like to trust others words but the reality is people fail you ,the way failed people those who said they loved and cared about you turned their backs faster than a New York minute. Family fails people at times even husbands and wives people at your job. Words are empty, temporal because people don't see black and white it is too easy to weasel out of your words. Honestly I may accept their account at face value if I felt that the facts supported it but I would never verify it people lie and some are very good at it. They have agendas to accomplish without proof hard evidence it will always be a guess there would be no way to be sure.
Another big thing I learned in PFAL was the greatness of Speaking in Tongues.
I spoke in tongues around a month before first taking PFAL, and the experience was exhilarating. It was terrific experience that words can't describe. I asked God to fill me with the holy spirit, and I asked Jesus to be my Lord, and I believed God raised him from the dead. I stepped out on believing, and spoke in tongues. First one syllable, then two, then a whole bunch.
Even today I speak in tongues, and it is an ever-present reminder to me of the inward presence of the holy spirit.
so you guys do not have to worry one little bit about "staying saved" as JOHNNY put it hell yeah the pfal class took care of that
no worries in life at all now man.
free sailing!! good freaking class information a real keeper.
why in hell would anyone be NOBLE or do the right thing then?
hmm
it sure as H makes it alot easier to screw up doesnt it?
As long as you do not metion it ever again no one ever knows what goes on behind close doors, and that pesky annoying thought of God might have seen or been aware of it is no longer a problem he wont disown you and yep always forgiven.
keep on keeping on doing what ya need to do !!
a free ride with absolutly no accountability not even to God, HE cant disown you and your always forgiven have at it whatever you want !!!
no wonder ya all loved it so much.
How about out of gratitude for all that we have been given and all that we have been forgiven for? The temptation to keep on sinning has been dealt with in Romans 6:1&2 'Shall we sin the more that grace may abound. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' There are many places in the Bible that indicate that we have NOT been given a free ride with no accountability to God. However, it is very comforting to know that we have been given incorruptible seed, and God cannot disown us, rather than the type of Christianity that I grew up with, wherein if you happened to be out of fellowship with a very arbitrary and cranky God at the time of your death, you were headed for hell and any obedience up to that point counted for nothing.
Doojable, I'm glad your upbringing taught you most of what we taught in PFAL, and all that PFAL did for you was reinforce what you already knew. Some of us were not that fortunate, however; and much of what I was taught in PFAL was like a great light in a very dark place.
A few big things that I learned while taking PFAL:
1.The Word of God is the Will of God, i.e. the bible is inerrant without contradictions
I no longer believe this. I view the bible as a collection of men's opinions about God, as well as myths and legends and some tracts that support one or another of the Christian factions.
2. Jesus Christ is not God
I still believe this, but not for the reasons taught in PFAL. Assuming that there was a Jesus that the gospel accounts was based on, I dion't believe that he claimed to be God. I believe that some of the biblical writers thought that he was God, or part God (or something) and that the contradictions among the various writers' opinions gave rise to the cobbled together doctrine of the Trinity. I don't believe that Wierwille's refutation of the Trinity satisfactorily explains the contradictions.
3. The bible interprets itself, i.e. there are keys to reading and understanding that will inevitably lead one to one unambiguous interpretation
I no longer believe this. I have seen too many perfectly logical and reasonable interpretations of the same section of scripture by people who all believe that they are interpreting it correctly. Seeing the differing doctrinal positions by TWI offshoots (not to mention Bullinger over 100 years ago) all using the same "keys" helped me to see this.
4. The dead are not alive.
I no longer believe this. I don't think that Wierwille (or Bullinger) effectively rebutted all of the so-called unclear scriptures. There are some definite contradictions that are not resolved.
5. Body-Soul-Spirit
I no longer believe this. I don't think that you can separate body from soul or spirit.
6. Nine manifestations
I don't believe that Wierwille's teaching that the 9 things mentioned in I Corithians 12 are distinct "manifestations" as opposed to "gifts". It says that the manifestation (singular) of the spirit is given to every man...
It doesn't say manifestations (plural) and it doesn't say that every person gets every one of the 9 things mentioned. A plain reading of what is written indicates that one person gets one thing, another person gets another.
7. Speaking in Tongues is prof that you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you.
I no longer believe this. Speaking in tongues existed before the day of pentecost and it exists outside of Chistianity today
God is still "cranky" (love that word ) in my life.
so pick and choose folks pick and choose this verse fits here and that one over there come one and all pick and choose.
rally call of those who use bible verses as bullets . on a good day you must remind those we are held accoutable but if he/she is a good joe a soldier you love pick that other verse about it doesnt really matter put it in the past your still born again and going to heaven and He loves ya.
pick and choose pick and choose bible verse for any sin or occasion here !
It is amazing how many people that you have to make liars in order to be comfortable with your choice to put credence in vpw or his teachings.
Rascal I never once accused anyone of being a liar that is just your spin. There is a big difference in calling someone a liar and admitting that information is not verifiable that means according to definition not I like the info so I believe it is true. You might believe someone is drunk they may exhibit signs of such but without the DUI report you can not prove your opinion. It does not mean you are lying or telling the truth it means you have a guess, a hunch, an opinion, a suspicion, call it what you like but it is impossible to confirm without a DUI test. It also has zero, notta, nothing, to do with putting credence in VPW teachings or anyone else's for that matter. It is evaluation of facts pure and simple do the facts without a doubt line up or are there gaps in the data.
PFAL was the launch pad for a whole "lotta" learning for me, as it was for many of you.
The dust was certainly cleared from the Bible.(incorrectly or not..NOT MY subject right now)
I loved it
And yes ,I grew to love the man that taught it to me
Things change
A positive thread ,for me, is refreshing.
I believe I understand the need for both sides .I may be wrong
I don't think anyone claims that every minute in twi was bad.
I, for one, Love reading
a great experience
something funny
great blessings
awesome times
answered prayer
and many more things that happened for people within (and despite of) twi
now,onto the topic of the last few pages of this thread... OMG
MARSHA,MARSHA,MARSHA
this "aint no" Brady bunch story
eyewitness accounts??
why did she go back to the motorcrotch??
place herself "in harm's way??
what was she thinking? (would any of YOU have had a clear head?)
She did it to herself ??
Drugged or not??
HERE'S MY PERSPECTIVE
to all those who STILL blame her...30YEARS LATER (insert your own name ,I won't)
I was there that year. you weren't
I saw what Marsha went through as a result of it.
FIRST HAND
You didn't see her have to deal with being TRASHED byALL the people she looked up to and loved
We were all told she was possessedlike it was all her fault
I lived with her every day after the motorcrotch visits. you didn't.
This poor girl's ENTIRE belief system had been turned on it's ear
Bad enough that it happened But fromHIM Thatman!. THE TEACHER!!! (?)
Betrayal to the verycore of her soul
Many of you treat people, and their stories, no better than the "MOGS" you bitch about all day long.
I believe that constantly bringing up all the tiny,intricate details of this story for debate is DISGUSTING
It sounds a little like blaming a small girl who takes candy from a strager. I guess she should just accept her responsibility too ? After all...she DID take the candy right? She HAD it comming ?????? She's just a dumba$$
SHAME ON YOU
I have the unique perspective of being one of Marsha's wow brothers that year
The other girl in the motorcrotch was a wow also, from another family. It was that girl's birthday as I recall. That's why she got the honor(?) of going to the motorcrotch too.The fact that she was GORGEOUS didn't hurt either I'm sure
Ok,yeah. that WAS speculation on my part. "My bad
Did I SEE vp stick it in her ? no. (graphic sorry)
So I guess anything I say ,on the topic, has no value ???
BS !!
I'm sure that Marsha "loosing her marbles" RIGHT after a visit to the motorcrotch was COMPLETELY A COINCIDENCE
Did any of us know what reallyhappened (at that time) ? no
She never said at the time.
Sadly, I believe she thought she was protecting us from the sh1t storm
Do I hAVE photographic EVIDENCE . NO.
Do I believe it anyless ? HELL NO
I saw what happened to her after
FIRST HAND
I think some of you need to be a little less "villagers with torches" when it comes to discussing certainsubject matter.(again, insert your OWN name ONLY if this applies to you
We are talking about a woman's WHOLE LIFE here
side note. yes ,you can leave home and go wow @17 I did it and yes, I had to have my parents permission
B) Saul and the Witch at Endor: did the dead arise at her bidding?
While studying at The University of Chicago, Dan McCxnaughy found a book with strikingly similar ideas and concepts. Dan told me that he noted that this volume had also been in the library when VP studied there. He wondered if VP had used it while researching the subject of the dead. He copied the book and sent a copy of it to VP. VP wrote some notes in it and sent it back to Dan. Geek has a photocopy of it. When he stops having to work 12 and 15 hour days, he wants to re-read it and compare it line by line with ADAN. Then we will be able to know if he also stole ideas from this book. Because there are no footnotes for this book in ADAN.
Is it possible he read the information in that book, never took good notes on what he learned, but incorporated the information into his ADAN book without crediting his source because he forgot where he learned it? Quite possibly.
Would that be plaigarism?
Absolutely.
For instance, while writing a paper last year, I thought of a particular comparison that really brought home a point I wanted to make, and I put it in the paper. I had read maybe 20 volumes, each about 200-400 pages each in doing my work. As I re-read my paper before turning it in, I started to have doubts about whether I had actually come up with that comparison on my own, or read it in another book. I started remembering a certain book that I might have gotten that comparison from. Started looking through it to see if I could find it where I thought I might have seen it. But it was a 3 inch thick book, and I had only a few hours before the deadline to turn in my research. I didn't have time to document that comparison properly. So I rewrote my paper to take it out, even though it was valid, and would have made a profound point. Why?
Because if I had included it on the hopes that it really was my own work, and it wasn't, and a professor knew where that idea came from, I COULD BE DISMISSED FROM THE COLLEGE FOR PLAGIARISM.
Plagiarism can be due to intentional deceit, or it can be due to sloppy notetaking.
VPW was guilty of both.
IN ADDITION TO BEING A SEXUAL PREDATOR.
And you guys want to revere this man for his "INTEGRITY"?
PFAL was the launch pad for a whole "lotta" learning for me, as it was for many of you.
The dust was certainly cleared from the Bible.(incorrectly or not..NOT MY subject right now)
I loved it
And yes ,I grew to love the man that taught it to me
Things change
A positive thread ,for me, is refreshing.
I believe I understand the need for both sides .I may be wrong
I don't think anyone claims that every minute in twi was bad.
I, for one, Love reading
a great experience
something funny
great blessings
awesome times
answered prayer
and many more things that happened for people within (and despite of) twi
now,onto the topic of the last few pages of this thread... OMG
MARSHA,MARSHA,MARSHA
this "aint no" Brady bunch story
eyewitness accounts??
why did she go back to the motorcrotch??
place herself "in harm's way??
what was she thinking? (would any of YOU have had a clear head?)
She did it to herself ??
Drugged or not??
HERE'S MY PERSPECTIVE
to all those who STILL blame her...30YEARS LATER (insert your own name ,I won't)
I was there that year. you weren't
I saw what Marsha went through as a result of it.
FIRST HAND
You didn't see her have to deal with being TRASHED byALL the people she looked up to and loved
We were all told she was possessedlike it was all her fault
I lived with her every day after the motorcrotch visits. you didn't.
This poor girl's ENTIRE belief system had been turned on it's ear
Bad enough that it happened But fromHIM Thatman!. THE TEACHER!!! (?)
Betrayal to the verycore of her soul
Many of you treat people, and their stories, no better than the "MOGS" you bitch about all day long.
I believe that constantly bringing up all the tiny,intricate details of this story for debate is DISGUSTING
It sounds a little like blaming a small girl who takes candy from a strager. I guess she should just accept her responsibility too ? After all...she DID take the candy right? She HAD it comming ?????? She's just a dumba$$
SHAME ON YOU
I have the unique perspective of being one of Marsha's wow brothers that year
The other girl in the motorcrotch was a wow also, from another family. It was that girl's birthday as I recall. That's why she got the honor(?) of going to the motorcrotch too.The fact that she was GORGEOUS didn't hurt either I'm sure
Ok,yeah. that WAS speculation on my part. "My bad
Did I SEE vp stick it in her ? no. (graphic sorry)
So I guess anything I say ,on the topic, has no value ???
BS !!
I'm sure that Marsha "loosing her marbles" RIGHT after a visit to the motorcrotch was COMPLETELY A COINCIDENCE
Did any of us know what reallyhappened (at that time) ? no
She never said at the time.
Sadly, I believe she thought she was protecting us from the sh1t storm
Do I hAVE photographic EVIDENCE . NO.
Do I believe it anyless ? HELL NO
I saw what happened to her after
FIRST HAND
I think some of you need to be a little less "villagers with torches" when it comes to discussing certainsubject matter.(again, insert your OWN name ONLY if this applies to you
We are talking about a woman's WHOLE LIFE here
side note. yes ,you can leave home and go wow @17 I did it and yes, I had to have my parents permission
I appreciate the effort, but do you really think you can hit a little target like their consciences when
the choices are between an unpleasant truth and their devoted adoration of "the good old days"
i brought up marsha's story (i hope she's not around)
i got into "the way ministry" toward the end of my freshman year in college. i was 18 going on 19
i was very excited and thankful and all that. it was at this time the good doctor was pheasant hunting and came to see "his girls" (i was just a thrilled tag-along newbie)
i couldn't wait to meet this special man -- THE TEACHER
i went over to the college-wow-all-girl way home because he was actually there IN PERSON !!!!!!!
i walked past the bathroom door -- it was open -- glanced to the left -- where he turned and smiled at me and exposed himself. the gal undershepherding me said something like, "isn't he great, he's so spiritual, he doesn't even think about the flesh....." something along those lines....
i won't bore you with the details of how he (over a few years) counseled me about my childhoodm the incest, the heartbreak, dah dah dah
fast forward (i'm leaving out so much) to my interim year. i was 23. i believe i turned 23 at advanced class '79 which was the end of my first year in residence (trying to document things here in case there's a judge on this thread). anyway, on my interim year, i desparately wanted a ride from one campus to another to see my fiance. i didn't think dr. would try to heal me anymore since i was engaged. he hadn't been successful at healing me thus far because i told him i just couldn't understand, i wasn't spiritual enough, and ran away in tears (more than once)
so then we had a few drinks on the long ride, much to my relief, because i was nervous
the next thing i remember is looking into these cold dead eyes and then viewing the incident from up above like i was on the ceiling
looking back, i figured it was probably a disassociating mechanism
somewhere toward the wee hours of the morning, i was over on another bed (don't remember how i got there)
there was this thing being poked in my face - the bed was the perfect level - and i played dead (deader than a door nail)
it finally went away. i mean the good dr. finally went away
--
so i'm the eyewitness to this one
(i'm so sorry for marsha)
--
knowing all the books of the bible just ain't cranked up to what it used to be (how does that saying go ?)
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
J0nny Ling0
No kiddin. Man, that's a doozy! And just before I ever went to twig, I'd met these people who called themselves "The Forever Family". A nice name for some Christian people I'spose. But, when they asked me to come to their fellowship or whatever, they told me that when I got there, they would have me lie down on the floor and begin confessing all my sins in order to become saved. And when they felt that I had confessed all of my sins (confess 'em all? I couldn't remember 'em all!), they would then (all of them) lay their hands on me and pray for God to save me through Jesus Christ. And, they went on to say, after I asked them; "What next?", that I could live with them and lead a pure Christian life so that I could "stay saved". And so, I couldn't agree more with the above quote regarding something I learned in PFAL which I still believe to this day...
And don't worry White Dove, I know how easy it is to get tangled up with that bunch...
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pond
See ?
so you guys do not have to worry one little bit about "staying saved" as JOHNNY put it hell yeah the pfal class took care of that
no worries in life at all now man.
free sailing!! good freaking class information a real keeper.
why in hell would anyone be NOBLE or do the right thing then?
hmm
it sure as H makes it alot easier to screw up doesnt it?
As long as you do not metion it ever again no one ever knows what goes on behind close doors, and that pesky annoying thought of God might have seen or been aware of it is no longer a problem he wont disown you and yep always forgiven.
keep on keeping on doing what ya need to do !!
a free ride with absolutly no accountability not even to God, HE cant disown you and your always forgiven have at it whatever you want !!!
no wonder ya all loved it so much.
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Lifted Up
This is a good point, Dove. I have a follow up question for you, but first a point or two of my own...
Catcup has made a big point of how she knew (knows?) M personally very well around the time described in M's account, therefore she know's M's account is true. I think that is a good reason to believe someone. It of course goes way beyond "words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet". Quite some time ago, Linda Z made the same point (on the start of a thread entitled "Why some don't get the abuse stories"), that she knew the person who gave an account, and therefore believed her account.
Obviously, Dove, others attach importance, as you do, to personal non anonymous testimony. So, maybe we dont have that much reason for conflict here?
So, my question, Dove...if you had first hand personal testimony from someone whose name you knew, perhaps from someone whom you knew well, would you accept it? have you tried to learn more with the attitued that you would accept it if you got it?
We are dealing, I believe, with a described personal hurt which is beyond what either of us can conceive. I don't know if you could really get that personal testimony (if you really wanted it). I know that you don't have a hope of getting it if you give the impression that you wouldn't believe first hand testimony even if you had it.
I have tried, I thought in all honesty, and despite that, on one occasion I got just that response...that I wouldn't believe first hand testimony if I wouldn't accept the person's second hand account. This response from a person whose name I knew; in fact from one of the very few GSers with whom I have had personal non cyber contact, albeit minimal and over the phone. from a poster I have respected. So it's not easy. But if you demand personal non anonymous non cyber testimony, would you be willing to give it credibility?
I may get caught in the crossfire; hit from both sides for this...dunno why I keep trying.
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pond
lifted I think your right and i have said it from the beginning
we all pick and chose who we trust and believe.
the girls chose the wrong one in the motor coach.
is that wrong or a mistake? i think the latter.
martindale wanted a loyalty letter from the corps because he needed to trust who he had to work with.
many couldnt cope with that fact.
but it is a fact of life.
some people live in this place of I DO NOT TRUST PEOPLE jesus never trusted people , but he continued to work and help and love them.
but at the end of the day how lonely is the person who can say that? we are not Jesus Christ and he commands we love one another i think it is difficult to love one or help one if we do not trust one another. they often say it is about not trusting people but it isnt it is really about not trusting Jesus to see us through in circumstances and in realtionships.
no one is trust worthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not.
clearly white dove has said he doesnt agree with cat cups account or testimoiny so trying to convince him other wise if futile.
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Lifted Up
True, true IMO.
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rascal
Lifted, why does it bother you so much??? I must assume that you are referring to me...and me refusing to give you names of people that wished to remain annonymous. IF they had wanted others to know, they would have posted themselves to the forums as a whole. You put me in a very bad position then. It was also a little unsetteling to be pushed for private information.
I explained then, I could not give you the name of source of my information. You just won`t let it drop....the story though I was given permission by the person to relate (because it was so similar to mine) was so personal and embaressing that the person who had shared it with me ASKED that I not reveal their name.
Dove and Jonny and Johniam, and oldies calloused regard and cruel behavior is a prime example of exactly WHY she didn`t want her name used. As you have seen here.....a perfect example of personal first hand testimony NOT being good enough for some ..... and the girls whom share it have their reputations, their characters and their judgement brought into question. The fact that they were young, that they trusted their minister, that they were in many cases drugged...that there are multiple first hand accounts that are strikingly similar....it just won`t be enough for a person whom is afraid to question their beliefs.
For some, it will NEVER be enough.....THAT was what I told you when you pressed for identities that were not mine to reveal. It kind of bothers me that you keep referring to this year after year like it was some kind of personal insult to you....it wasn`t it was what it was.....Me refusing to breach someone elses trust. I am sorry that my answere has bothered you so.
I
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doojable
Jonny - you can be such a ...
Ok - Here's something I remember from my time in rez:
J*hn Sch*inh*it was teaching some branch meeting He asked a the group, "What did you learn this morning when you read the Word?" Hands flew up (not mine) and answers started pouring in:
Corps: I learned I was seated in the heavenlies.
J: What?! You didn't know that already?
Corps: I learned I was born again.
J: You're in the Corps - a Christian leadership training program - you came here without knowing you were born again!?
As you can imagine, the hands started going down pretty quickly. The point is that learning something involves getting new information.
What did I learn from PFAL? Not much really. I had most of the info already given to me from my upbringing. I guess you can say that I learned how to research the Bible. But then again - since I don't place high value on a lot of those skills anymore - well why would I make a big deal out of it? It was very clear to me when I picked up a copy of Bullinger's How to Study the Bible that most of the class was lifted. That told me that the information was out there and I just found one of the various ways of acquiring it.
Why do threads like this ultimately end up in the same mode? Perhaps this is why:
It is hard for many people to separate the good from the bad. (I'm NOT pointing fingers here!) It is very hard for many more people to say they learned anything when they see in hindsight that PFAL was a portal into a ministry that ended in pain and dispair for many of their family and friends. It's one thing to start out on a road not knowing where it will end. It's quite another to talk about a great "road trip" when you know that the end of the story ends in disaster.
This is a reasonable response IMO.
So in a nutshell -
What BIG things did I learn - nothing really.
On a sidenote:
VP was wrong. He treated women like trash.
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WhiteDove
So, my question, Dove...if you had first hand personal testimony from someone whose name you knew, perhaps from someone whom you knew well, would you accept it? have you tried to learn more with the attitude that you would accept it if you got it?
That's a fair question lifted up of course we all would like to trust others words but the reality is people fail you ,the way failed people those who said they loved and cared about you turned their backs faster than a New York minute. Family fails people at times even husbands and wives people at your job. Words are empty, temporal because people don't see black and white it is too easy to weasel out of your words. Honestly I may accept their account at face value if I felt that the facts supported it but I would never verify it people lie and some are very good at it. They have agendas to accomplish without proof hard evidence it will always be a guess there would be no way to be sure.
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pond
I think they end up like this because some people want others to know about what they think went wrong.
this is a site where issues with the way international is the main stay isnt it?
i might be wrong but grease spot is a word to describe those not in really happy standing isnt it?
what i wonder is why some keep trying to bring the positive to light on this web site, i love you doreen where ever you are!
you too white dove .
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oldiesman
Another big thing I learned in PFAL was the greatness of Speaking in Tongues.
I spoke in tongues around a month before first taking PFAL, and the experience was exhilarating. It was terrific experience that words can't describe. I asked God to fill me with the holy spirit, and I asked Jesus to be my Lord, and I believed God raised him from the dead. I stepped out on believing, and spoke in tongues. First one syllable, then two, then a whole bunch.
Even today I speak in tongues, and it is an ever-present reminder to me of the inward presence of the holy spirit.
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Jeaniam
How about out of gratitude for all that we have been given and all that we have been forgiven for? The temptation to keep on sinning has been dealt with in Romans 6:1&2 'Shall we sin the more that grace may abound. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' There are many places in the Bible that indicate that we have NOT been given a free ride with no accountability to God. However, it is very comforting to know that we have been given incorruptible seed, and God cannot disown us, rather than the type of Christianity that I grew up with, wherein if you happened to be out of fellowship with a very arbitrary and cranky God at the time of your death, you were headed for hell and any obedience up to that point counted for nothing.
Doojable, I'm glad your upbringing taught you most of what we taught in PFAL, and all that PFAL did for you was reinforce what you already knew. Some of us were not that fortunate, however; and much of what I was taught in PFAL was like a great light in a very dark place.
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Oakspear
A few big things that I learned while taking PFAL:
1.The Word of God is the Will of God, i.e. the bible is inerrant without contradictions
I no longer believe this. I view the bible as a collection of men's opinions about God, as well as myths and legends and some tracts that support one or another of the Christian factions.
2. Jesus Christ is not God
I still believe this, but not for the reasons taught in PFAL. Assuming that there was a Jesus that the gospel accounts was based on, I dion't believe that he claimed to be God. I believe that some of the biblical writers thought that he was God, or part God (or something) and that the contradictions among the various writers' opinions gave rise to the cobbled together doctrine of the Trinity. I don't believe that Wierwille's refutation of the Trinity satisfactorily explains the contradictions.
3. The bible interprets itself, i.e. there are keys to reading and understanding that will inevitably lead one to one unambiguous interpretation
I no longer believe this. I have seen too many perfectly logical and reasonable interpretations of the same section of scripture by people who all believe that they are interpreting it correctly. Seeing the differing doctrinal positions by TWI offshoots (not to mention Bullinger over 100 years ago) all using the same "keys" helped me to see this.
4. The dead are not alive.
I no longer believe this. I don't think that Wierwille (or Bullinger) effectively rebutted all of the so-called unclear scriptures. There are some definite contradictions that are not resolved.
5. Body-Soul-Spirit
I no longer believe this. I don't think that you can separate body from soul or spirit.
6. Nine manifestations
I don't believe that Wierwille's teaching that the 9 things mentioned in I Corithians 12 are distinct "manifestations" as opposed to "gifts". It says that the manifestation (singular) of the spirit is given to every man...
It doesn't say manifestations (plural) and it doesn't say that every person gets every one of the 9 things mentioned. A plain reading of what is written indicates that one person gets one thing, another person gets another.
7. Speaking in Tongues is prof that you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you.
I no longer believe this. Speaking in tongues existed before the day of pentecost and it exists outside of Chistianity today
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oldiesman
Me too Jean. For the first time in my life, the Bible made sense. :)
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pond
God is still "cranky" (love that word ) in my life.
so pick and choose folks pick and choose this verse fits here and that one over there come one and all pick and choose.
rally call of those who use bible verses as bullets . on a good day you must remind those we are held accoutable but if he/she is a good joe a soldier you love pick that other verse about it doesnt really matter put it in the past your still born again and going to heaven and He loves ya.
pick and choose pick and choose bible verse for any sin or occasion here !
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WhiteDove
Rascal I never once accused anyone of being a liar that is just your spin. There is a big difference in calling someone a liar and admitting that information is not verifiable that means according to definition not I like the info so I believe it is true. You might believe someone is drunk they may exhibit signs of such but without the DUI report you can not prove your opinion. It does not mean you are lying or telling the truth it means you have a guess, a hunch, an opinion, a suspicion, call it what you like but it is impossible to confirm without a DUI test. It also has zero, notta, nothing, to do with putting credence in VPW teachings or anyone else's for that matter. It is evaluation of facts pure and simple do the facts without a doubt line up or are there gaps in the data.
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rascal
Seared conscience comes to mind :(
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pond
bitter hate could be another
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What The Hey
That helps seal in the juices.
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exwaycorps
PFAL was the launch pad for a whole "lotta" learning for me, as it was for many of you.
The dust was certainly cleared from the Bible.(incorrectly or not..NOT MY subject right now)
I loved it
And yes ,I grew to love the man that taught it to me
Things change
A positive thread ,for me, is refreshing.
I believe I understand the need for both sides .I may be wrong
I don't think anyone claims that every minute in twi was bad.
I, for one, Love reading
a great experience
something funny
great blessings
awesome times
answered prayer
and many more things that happened for people within (and despite of) twi
now,onto the topic of the last few pages of this thread... OMG
MARSHA,MARSHA,MARSHA
this "aint no" Brady bunch story
eyewitness accounts??
why did she go back to the motorcrotch??
place herself "in harm's way??
what was she thinking? (would any of YOU have had a clear head?)
She did it to herself ??
Drugged or not??
HERE'S MY PERSPECTIVE
to all those who STILL blame her...30YEARS LATER (insert your own name ,I won't)
I was there that year. you weren't
I saw what Marsha went through as a result of it.
FIRST HAND
You didn't see her have to deal with being TRASHED byALL the people she looked up to and loved
We were all told she was possessedlike it was all her fault
I lived with her every day after the motorcrotch visits. you didn't.
This poor girl's ENTIRE belief system had been turned on it's ear
Bad enough that it happened But fromHIM Thatman!. THE TEACHER!!! (?)
Betrayal to the verycore of her soul
Many of you treat people, and their stories, no better than the "MOGS" you bitch about all day long.
I believe that constantly bringing up all the tiny,intricate details of this story for debate is DISGUSTING
It sounds a little like blaming a small girl who takes candy from a strager. I guess she should just accept her responsibility too ? After all...she DID take the candy right? She HAD it comming ?????? She's just a dumba$$
SHAME ON YOU
I have the unique perspective of being one of Marsha's wow brothers that year
The other girl in the motorcrotch was a wow also, from another family. It was that girl's birthday as I recall. That's why she got the honor(?) of going to the motorcrotch too.The fact that she was GORGEOUS didn't hurt either I'm sure
Ok,yeah. that WAS speculation on my part. "My bad
Did I SEE vp stick it in her ? no. (graphic sorry)
So I guess anything I say ,on the topic, has no value ???
BS !!
I'm sure that Marsha "loosing her marbles" RIGHT after a visit to the motorcrotch was COMPLETELY A COINCIDENCE
Did any of us know what reallyhappened (at that time) ? no
She never said at the time.
Sadly, I believe she thought she was protecting us from the sh1t storm
Do I hAVE photographic EVIDENCE . NO.
Do I believe it anyless ? HELL NO
I saw what happened to her after
FIRST HAND
I think some of you need to be a little less "villagers with torches" when it comes to discussing certainsubject matter.(again, insert your OWN name ONLY if this applies to you
We are talking about a woman's WHOLE LIFE here
side note. yes ,you can leave home and go wow @17 I did it and yes, I had to have my parents permission
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WordWolf
To say nothing of the parts that were lifted entirely from 2 of Bullinger's books:
A) The Rich Man and Lazarus: an Intermediate State?
http://philologos.org/__eb-rml/
B) Saul and the Witch at Endor: did the dead arise at her bidding?
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WordWolf
I appreciate the effort, but do you really think you can hit a little target like their consciences when
the choices are between an unpleasant truth and their devoted adoration of "the good old days"
and "vpw was a great Christian leader"?
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rascal
Thanks for your perspective ex way corps.
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excathedra
i brought up marsha's story (i hope she's not around)
i got into "the way ministry" toward the end of my freshman year in college. i was 18 going on 19
i was very excited and thankful and all that. it was at this time the good doctor was pheasant hunting and came to see "his girls" (i was just a thrilled tag-along newbie)
i couldn't wait to meet this special man -- THE TEACHER
i went over to the college-wow-all-girl way home because he was actually there IN PERSON !!!!!!!
i walked past the bathroom door -- it was open -- glanced to the left -- where he turned and smiled at me and exposed himself. the gal undershepherding me said something like, "isn't he great, he's so spiritual, he doesn't even think about the flesh....." something along those lines....
i won't bore you with the details of how he (over a few years) counseled me about my childhoodm the incest, the heartbreak, dah dah dah
fast forward (i'm leaving out so much) to my interim year. i was 23. i believe i turned 23 at advanced class '79 which was the end of my first year in residence (trying to document things here in case there's a judge on this thread). anyway, on my interim year, i desparately wanted a ride from one campus to another to see my fiance. i didn't think dr. would try to heal me anymore since i was engaged. he hadn't been successful at healing me thus far because i told him i just couldn't understand, i wasn't spiritual enough, and ran away in tears (more than once)
so then we had a few drinks on the long ride, much to my relief, because i was nervous
the next thing i remember is looking into these cold dead eyes and then viewing the incident from up above like i was on the ceiling
looking back, i figured it was probably a disassociating mechanism
somewhere toward the wee hours of the morning, i was over on another bed (don't remember how i got there)
there was this thing being poked in my face - the bed was the perfect level - and i played dead (deader than a door nail)
it finally went away. i mean the good dr. finally went away
--
so i'm the eyewitness to this one
(i'm so sorry for marsha)
--
knowing all the books of the bible just ain't cranked up to what it used to be (how does that saying go ?)
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rascal
((((Excathedra))) Words fail. I am so sorry that you were targeted by this amoral predator :(
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