If you bitterness freaks are so sick of input from the likes of us then why don't you do what Mike did awhile back and have a PM conference call. He organized a PM only discussion about PFAL that was positive. No outsiders, no negativity. You guys won't do that because you really do all your complaining to be seen of men, not to please God.
None of us positive people are trying to shut anybody up; we're just sick of being misrepresented. We sorta think youse guys are the ones trying to shut US up. So just keep on arguing with us about everything. That'll shut us up.
Dunno if I qualify as a *bitterness freak*, but I can answer part of your question.
Given the new board we are on now (thanks to Paw's diligence in keeping this site updated),
it is no longer possible to do the *conference calls* (via pm),
such as Mike did a coupla years ago.
I know that for a fact -- cause I was on several. :)
And -- (if I might add --- )
IF THIS WERE A PRO-PFAL site, sure --meebe we would be the outsiders,
and if such a *conference discussion* (like what happened before) were available,
it would avail us to use it to hide from the *positive people*.
I guess one has to adequately define *positive*.
Positive to you, might be a negative to me.
Positive to me, might be a negative to you.
(one man's trash is another man's treasure --- yada yada).
What I see here is the status of the board GSC.
It is a site dedicated to telling the truth about twi, what happened,
how it impacted, ruined, and changed lives forever.
Yes (I'll toss out a cookie crumb here) --- I had good times while in.
BUT WHEN I READ OF THE HORRENDOUS TREATMENT
that faithful followers suffered at the hands of those who were LEADERS,
involved in and perpetuating drugging and rape of teen-age women --
I have to ask myself ----
WHAT SANE PERSON WOULD CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR???
Oh there now Johniam....THAT was positive and upbeat :) Thank you for that bit of edification...just exactly the sort of thing one would expect to hear from their brother in Christ ...snort
Garth, I have not seen everything that supposedly "proves" anything.
What I have seen are allegations, for the most part.
Then apparently you haven't read them thoroughly, because a lot of those allegations have had detailed explanations, others who verified aforementioned behavior with what they have witnessed/experienced, and even verified witness accounts in various related court cases which further proved that these 'allegations' did indeed occur. And one thing an attorney (a good one) will tell you is that, like the biblical concept of getting multiple witnesses ("by two or more witnesses shall a man be condemned") is a sound one in just about any court.
Among them are giving the accused a fair shake.
That means the accused has the right to face and cross examine an accuser and evidence presented against him.
That means the accused has the right to present exculpatory or explanatory evidence.
That means the accused deserves to have their case heard by a fair and impartial jury.
That means the accused has the right to a speedy and public trial.
That means the accused has a right to appeal.
That means the accused has a right to be considered innocent until proven guilty.
There is more, but you get the picture.
So just because the accused (VPW) is now dead, and can't 'face his accusers, that gets him off the hook as far as this 'all-American principle' is concerned? Hey, Hitler's dead too, and cannot face his accusers either. So why shouldn't the world just drop all the 'negative accusations' against him too? ... Hopefully, you now see the flaw with how you're using this 'principle'.
Your comparison of the accusations of VPW, and those made against the Duke team are hideously flawed. You make the erroneous transposing of the Duke team situation over to Wierwille and Co. And yes Virginia, it IS erroneous.
How many Americans gave their lives for people like Wierwille and his blind goosesteppers to take advantage of people like that, and hide behind the Bill of Rights to escape accountability, hmmmmm? ... Correct Answer: NONE!
Speaking of Project Innocence, ask them, based on all the accounts here, and the opposing 'witness', about whether they would render Wierwille as innocent as the people who they actually believe is innocent. ... I'd be willing to bet solid $$$$$ that they wouldn't appreciate you're using them as a reference for Wierwille's crap! ..... Go ahead, ask them. ........ I dare you!
Johniam,
Your arguments are so weak, I almost feel like I'm beating up a mentally handicapped person by responding, ... but I'll respond anyway.
Us 'bitterness freaks', who are *exclusively* singled out for that label, and for no better reason than our voicing our distaste for Wierwille and his ilk (and you damn well know it) know why we are continuing to do so. And it isn't 'to be seen of men' as you so blithely put it. But that is how Wierwille defind it, isn't it? So that is why you mindlessly swallow that mentality and think you're being sooo biblical and godly.
Yeah, right. Thanks for the reminder of why I left.
WHAT SANE PERSON WOULD CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR???
Perhaps one would/should come up with a follow-up question:
WHAT SANE GOD WOULD CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR???
Think about that one for a moment, VPW defenders. If you are standing up for the Principles and Truths of the One True God by voicing the things you are saying here, . . . . . what does that say about your God and His Word, ... hmmmm? What does that say about how your God would comparatively deal with those who were abused at the hands of VPW vis-a-vis His Word as portrayed in PFAL, and as to which is more important?
You complain about the seemingly never-ending tirade of negativewhining and complaining against Wierwille and Co., and why we all don't "just get over it!" (well, for one thing, nobody's _making_ you read this discomforting material, ... are they?)
I notice that a lot of you whine and complain against Democrats, liberals, individuals who get off scot-free in our flawed judicial system, illegal immigrants, etc., etc., ad nauseum. ..... Waitaminute! What about the principle of not being so god-danged negative? Hell some of you go more ape-s**t over Hillary than Catcup or Excie does over VPW! ..... WTF is up with that contradiction?! :unsure:
Oh, and Whitedove, your approach and (mis)usage of "we gotta have proof of the accusing accounts given" is just that, ... a misusage. Because you take these accounts to ANY court in the country, with the documentation and supporting witnesses, ... and even a 1st year law student could get a _proving_ conviction with his/her eyes closed. ... In a heartbeat.
I see you read what I said as well as some others Garth ,not surprised. I spoke for myself and myself alone "I" don't accept internet stories especially anonymous ones. That as I said several times (I'm sure you missed that as well) does not make them true or make them false it also makes no one a liar. Just that I can not verify the information and I by choice which I have a right to don't accept unverifiable information especially from faceless people on the net. This by the way has nothing exclusive to do with Way issues even ,it could be an account of a dogfight or some other issue. There have been a few stories here on GS from time to time that have surfaced and later debunked that people got sucked in to because the took people at face value, Sorry I don't nothing personal I extend that policy to everyone ,it is ridicules to not consider that in accepting information as fact or truth.
In regard to your court comments these accounts have not been tried in any court yet you treat them like they have, you have ruled them case closed solved without the benefit of trial. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad I'm not asking or even suggesting that they need to be either. Only that it is possible just maybe that all the facts have not been presented. even in court we do get the benefit of hearing from both sides after all, a luxury we will not get here in this case.
Is one sided testimony a part of your court as well? Would that fly as you say? Doubtful..... How can one really render a fair and balanced verdict hearing one side would you like those odds if you were on trial? Doubtful.
My problem really was with claims that can not be substantiated specifically if you read back my first posts that someone is an eyewitness when they were not at the scene even. You say that will fly in court I doubt it Garth. That defies what a eyewitness is and yet it is ok to say these things just do and say whatever because " we don't like the way" I don't either but they have a right to be treated without dishonest speech you can't just make s**t up. Hearing a story after the fact is not an eyewitness look it up.
eye·wit·ness
–noun 1. a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder.
–verb (used with object) 2. to view with one's own eyes: to eyewitness a murder.
Here is what she said by her own words
I'm the one she talked to when she came back from that walk around the pond when RixK Pxnyard tried to get in her pants.
She talked to me when she got back does that sound anything remotely like (a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it.) Not really yet now she is accepted as a eyewitness just like that...POOF and will down the road be forever quoted in future threads as one like it is truth. It's not it is fabricated BS and that is what I took exception with and other things like it . Of course rather than deal with the issues at hand as par for the course the subject is changed to wierwille supporters, worshipers, unsympathetic to blah blah rape pillage and anything to detract from the truth which was by definition she was wrong. and this is the kind of BS that has gone on too long.
What you keep failing to notice/acknowledge is the many instances of abuse committed by VPW (and other TWI leadership) that HAVE been substantiated by others, and not only by other victims, but by those in former TWI leadership positions who have blown the whistle on activities like this. Leaders like:
Ralph Dobofsky
John Lynn
John Schoenheit
Vince Finnigan
Steve Sann
Sue Pierce
and plenty others, ALL who have witnessed firsthand the abuses which are plainly illustrated here. Witnesses who _know_ of FAR more valid information about such than you ever will. And I find it totally incredulous that you also dismiss out of hand Catcup's account, and that of Marsha, without giving them any serious consideration!
How much documentation/independent verification do you need before you accept the word given by those here and elsewhere that this s**t occured, hmmmm? Frankly, I think you use the "You must verify/document these occurances" as a smoke screen of denial because you have some sort of difficulty accepting that these occurances happened, perpetrated by VPW. I might be wrong in that rendering, but ya know something, when you keep hammering for more and more and more evidence that, for all practical purposes, pert near consists of actual video footage, in color, of the event, signed and notarized documents attesting to that the occurance of said event did indeed occur, written confessions of the accused, in triplicate and on legal sized paper, yadayadayada, ... I gotta start questioning what your real motives are here, as you seem to treat the accounts as tho' they were made on a whim by disgruntled ex-Wayfers who just wanted to carry a grudge. :unsure:
You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard.
One more point tho. Please don't insult our intelligence with this presumptuous swill that, because we (supposedly and allegedly) aren't applying the same level of legal standard that you do and expect in your (supposed) appeal to American legal principle, that we are somehow less embracing and believing in that principle of innocent until proven guilty than you are. The only real difference here is that we believe that enough evidence has been given to convict, whereas you do not. ... And it goes no farther than that.
So please spare us the stomach turning 'wrap yourself in the American flag' facade.
dottie, i'm not ignoring you, i just don't want to keep telling it right now
Well, so much has happened since I was here last.
I only brought up the DOCTRINE vs. mistake because people always discuss David's mistake with Bethsheba and Uriah. He made a terrible mistake and repented.
VPW made a Doctrine, a way of life out of hurting women, he taught it to the inner circle and demanded they comply. When they didn't they were "given" something to drink to make them comply. Men were told they could not go very far without the sexual "servicing" in their lives.
Very different from David. Who did it once and repented.
The thing that is shocking to me is the very MEN who claim to love God, to have learned so much from VPW, to still cling to the Word of God, are the ones lacking the most in simple compassion. Also they will not see, we really were in a cult VP started with the stolen works of a man of God, and his own doctrine of devils. VP was brilliant. The devil was brilliant. What a way to take people out! Allow them the deliverance of the Word of God, get them excited, then switch the product.
I had great times in the counterfeit BG Leonard class known as "PFAL". But all those times I had where God was able to work were short lived compared to the doctrine of devils that followed
Once freed from the doctrines of devils, I was able to resume my studies. First, I did get BG's book.
Garth said "You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard."
Very sad, but true. Personally, I like WD because I feel he really is committed to trying to "stand" and he likes Melanie (the singer). I just feel it is very sad he has as one of his role models "VPW" ( The typical response will be show me where I SAID role model)
He doesn't know VPW or me. But with being here 8 years or whatever it has been, I think he has had as much time to see that I am real. He saw VP as real and hears the terrible things he did. The only difference can be that VPW reached his heart with great things.... Those things were classes such as PFAL. I also got great deliverance in PFAL. But there comes a time to realize the class and VPW are not synonymous.
If anyone really kicks it in with Discerning, they might see that VPW bringing the PFAL class to us was the greatest bait and switch scam I have ever seen. Steal a great class, call it your own. The word of God in that class DID help me. Then, have VPW show his doctrine of devils to a grateful following.
Many of these guys say they would have walked away, I think not. I bet some of you would have fallen prey to whatever he spoke as being some sort of truth, and had you have received the German pecker in your “rearend” after being given a drink- this whole forum would be about you guys screaming to be heard, warning us, and trying to help others out of the web of lies woven on the foundation of truth ferreted out of the Bible by other men; true God-loving men.
Yep. It is even more clear why they covered, fired people, squirmed, threatened and bullied to keep all of this quiet. Not to mention the legal possibilities, I think we would have fled decades before had we known.
They were afraid for vic's "legacy" for more reasons than one.
I wonder how "above board" they are now..
loy was no better than "pappy" either. If the court records are right, they kept up this same kind of nonsense into the late 1990's.
some want the others to "move on" and not be a victim.
yet here they are in the same web site , living in the same "past" but with different colored horse. still just as serious about getting their own message said.
it is the same camp folks, but different focus of what is important to you.
johnny i know pfal is important to you and your serious, just as those who speak of the sex stuff feel it is important.. same things different plots.
but consider it is an EX way site.
and the victim thing isnt wrong johnny it isnt wrong to admit your hurt. it doesnt mean life is damaged beyond any reasonable happiness. you learned in the way any sort of hurt or sickness or depression or wrong was from the devil.
could be . but the people who had the experience in their life were are not the devil. they are God beloved.
Jesus was a victim of murder. is that not an example of love ? he didnt wake up that morning and say geez this will be a good day he had alot of pain and turmoil knowing He would suffer and die. and his brothers slept and didnt have a clue how to help him even when He asked them to pray they wouldnt sleep was better.
would you consider Jesus christ a victim?
he suffered and told a great many tales of woe and misery betrayal all of it.
some of this thread shows how this site gets to personal one on on in fighting, which is what happened in twi.
i love that mouse picture he looks so warm and cuddly . and it fits your writings Mr. Hammeroni.
What you keep failing to notice/acknowledge is the many instances of abuse committed by VPW (and other TWI leadership) that HAVE been substantiated by others, and not only by other victims, but by those in former TWI leadership positions who have blown the whistle on activities like this. Leaders like:
Ralph Dobofsky
John Lynn
John Schoenheit
Vince Finnigan
Steve Sann
Sue Pierce
and plenty others, ALL who have witnessed firsthand the abuses which are plainly illustrated here. Witnesses who _know_ of FAR more valid information about such than you ever will. And I find it totally incredulous that you also dismiss out of hand Catcup's account, and that of Marsha, without giving them any serious consideration!
How much documentation/independent verification do you need before you accept the word given by those here and elsewhere that this s**t occured, hmmmm? Frankly, I think you use the "You must verify/document these occurances" as a smoke screen of denial because you have some sort of difficulty accepting that these occurances happened, perpetrated by VPW. I might be wrong in that rendering, but ya know something, when you keep hammering for more and more and more evidence that, for all practical purposes, pert near consists of actual video footage, in color, of the event, signed and notarized documents attesting to that the occurance of said event did indeed occur, written confessions of the accused, in triplicate and on legal sized paper, yadayadayada, ... I gotta start questioning what your real motives are here, as you seem to treat the accounts as tho' they were made on a whim by disgruntled ex-Wayfers who just wanted to carry a grudge. :unsure:
You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt.
How about adding some supportive evidence as well?
Drambuie-drinking wierwille ---- often, mixed in his coffee while he taught the corps
Women on the motorcoach ----- few men were ever "invited" to travel with vpw
Martindale's confessions and lifestyle --- attributing things back to what vpw exhorted him to do
Martindale's demise and ouster
Thanks to men and women like P@ul and Fxrn Allen......and his computer skills to upstart WAYDALE and expose twi's manipulation and abuse.....AND slapping a law suit on Martindale and the gang of which was settled out of court to keep other sordid details from public consumption....
IMO, it shows that Wierwille groomed Martindale and the motorcoach-mania persisted.
If it is any comfort at all to those that feel they are ...
I suspect there are plenty of lurkers who will read this thread and immediately recognise the lack of empathy and compassion in TWI styled men of God...and it will cause good men and women to pause and reexamine what they think and believe.
What you keep failing to notice/acknowledge is the many instances of abuse committed by VPW (and other TWI leadership) that HAVE been substantiated by others, and not only by other victims, but by those in former TWI leadership positions who have blown the whistle on activities like this. Leaders like:
Ralph Dobofsky
John Lynn
John Schoenheit
Vince Finnigan
Steve Sann
Sue Pierce
and plenty others, ALL who have witnessed firsthand the abuses which are plainly illustrated here. Witnesses who _know_ of FAR more valid information about such than you ever will. And I find it totally incredulous that you also dismiss out of hand Catcup's account, and that of Marsha, without giving them any serious consideration!
So Garth there you go doing exactly what I just said did we address the eyewitness issue no we changed the subject why because we know it was wrong and the pack just can't be. All I see on your list is a bunch of people that were fired from their cush jobs who now have some moral cry that they did not while at the Way Int. They have agendas So, Do you think I trust them? Guess again..... And I did not dismiss catcups account I said I could not verify it there is a difference. And I did consider them and found absent was pieces of proof for many claims again I'll say that does not make it untrue just unverifiable some will be ok with skipping the holes. I'm not.
How much documentation/independent verification do you need before you accept the word given by those here and elsewhere that this s**t occured, hmmmm? Frankly, I think you use the "You must verify/document these occurances" as a smoke screen of denial because you have some sort of difficulty accepting that these occurances happened, perpetrated by VPW. I might be wrong in that rendering, but ya know something, when you keep hammering for more and more and more evidence that, for all practical purposes, pert near consists of actual video footage, in color, of the event, signed and notarized documents attesting to that the occurance of said event did indeed occur, written confessions of the accused, in triplicate and on legal sized paper, yadayadayada, ... I gotta start questioning what your real motives are here, as you seem to treat the accounts as tho' they were made on a whim by disgruntled ex-Wayfers who just wanted to carry a grudge. :unsure:
Excuse me but I have NEVER asked or as you put it hammered anyone for proof just stated that I did not have it personally, and yes I have heard accounts by former disgruntled exwayfers who have bones to pick that do not wash. I have no problem with believing that VPW could have done any of these things just no proof if and I when that happens that will be a different day. As it stands today insufficient data to decide......... Bottom line I trust no one without hard cold facts, I would not trust an account by my own sister without it. I might like to support it ,but that's the difference between us you are willing to accept things on emotion I'm not, family, friends is irrelevant, facts ,proof are not. (I might trust my dog as he is not human. Maybe.) I'm done trusting people and their words on emotion been there done that it did not work, People lie! OR at best misspeak. I heard for better for worse once it was a lie! I heard we love you once . It was a lie! . I'm darn sure not trusting people that have predisposed attitude about what they are making a case against .
You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard.
Fine , that is all I asked why do I need to anyway? It's not important to me that you or others believe in accounts that I may share. You do or you don't simple as that. but keep in mind where you are though, the jury here is one sided made up of a majority of those who like to put down anything positive about the way, should I be surprised that they have made up their mind? Hardly a level playing field now is there? That's like a jury full of Peta people being the jury on Michael Vicks trial now isn't it? You accept it because you are among that group I am not.
One more point tho. Please don't insult our intelligence with this presumptuous swill that, because we (supposedly and allegedly) aren't applying the same level of legal standard that you do and expect in your (supposed) appeal to American legal principle, that we are somehow less embracing and believing in that principle of innocent until proven guilty than you are. The only real difference here is that we believe that enough evidence has been given to convict, whereas you do not. ... And it goes no farther than that.
Well Garth if you only side with those who think like you ,only allow them to be on your jury(are there any of the thousands of non greasespot exways on that jury I think not.) and only allow the prosecuting side to testify in the trial then YES you have a skewed justice system. That's not rocket science to figure that out. I only asked that people don't claim to be something they are not just to make their case an eyewitness is what it is by definition, and verifying requires that you have evidence not opinion, best guess ,suspicion, I like you, I don't like you or a variety of other things as your base for verification.
Garth said "You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard."
Very sad, but true. Personally, I like WD because I feel he really is committed to trying to "stand" and he likes Melanie (the singer). I just feel it is very sad he has as one of his role models "VPW" ( The typical response will be show me where I SAID role model)
Thanks Dot I like you too as well. I do my best and often it is still lacking. But rest assured I will keep my feelings for you seperate from accepting anything without burden of proof. You are wrong abut VPW being a role model for me or why I think the way I do. It's experience pure and simple.He doesn't know VPW or me. But with being here 8 years or whatever it has been, I think he has had as much time to see that I am real. He saw VP as real and hears the terrible things he did. The only difference can be that VPW reached his heart with great things.... Those things were classes such as PFAL. I also got great deliverance in PFAL. But there comes a time to realize the class and VPW are not synonymous.
Emotion has nothing to do with acceptance it is simply a case of does a and b line up what does the truth show. hard facts not opinion and other things
If anyone really kicks it in with Discerning, they might see that VPW bringing the PFAL class to us was the greatest bait and switch scam I have ever seen. Steal a great class, call it your own. The word of God in that class DID help me. Then, have VPW show his doctrine of devils to a grateful following.
Many of these guys say they would have walked away, I think not. I bet some of you would have fallen prey to whatever he spoke as being some sort of truth, and had you have received the German pecker in your “rearend” after being given a drink- this whole forum would be about you guys screaming to be heard, warning us, and trying to help others out of the web of lies woven on the foundation of truth ferreted out of the Bible by other men; true God-loving men.
Dot I can't say what I would have done if I was a young girl in that situation, I'd like to think I would have remained true to what I had learned and stood on scripture. But who knows? And even if I did my stand is not the issue. My only response to this was if one does put ones self in harms way after knowing of danger then at some point we have personal responsibility another words don't walk down second street at 3:00 am and wonder why you got mugged. In the case of M's account and her account only, I did note that it was not correct to say she had no chance to walk away by her own account she was in her car and in a rage flinging gravel on the motor coach. she was free and clear she made the choice for reasons unknown to return with the full knowledge of the potential danger and no support . Should she have had to have had that Absolutely not, she should have felt safe there. But she knew better when she returned, I don't know the reasons for her mistake but from looking at the record it is clear she did have a chance to get away in fact was in her car and away. Not everyone I know had that same opportunity but in her case she did, to ignore that information was being less than honest. I was not asking for judgment only acknowledgment of the facts that were presented.
He wants to grow up and be a sexual predator just like his hero.
I'm done with you.
Tomorrow I get to get up and interview REAL men. REAL heroes, with GENUINE integrity.
Something you will never experientially know.
And so now I and my son are sexual predators. Wow. That's quite a stretch. My son makes the statement comncerning people being hurt over twenty years ago by a man who is now dead by saying; "Only a fool goes into the future backwards", and now we are both sexual predators. Wow. Even if you don't like that statement, your conclusion is preposterous. I'm done with you too. And, I guess this thread is as derailed as any I have ever seen. Even more so.
Snort...not that you didn`t have a thing to do with it eh Jonny?
Maybe sexual predator was a bit strong....but never the less you seem to have imparted your own lack of understanding for the necessity of these topics and compassion regarding the people sharing them.
All I can say is that I sure hope that .....
Every time someone like deciderator says that the abuse was alie......hopefully there will be people to stand up and give testimony.
Every time someone claims that the women either deserved it or could have chosen differently.....hopefully someone will provide the accounts and information that show that drugging was rampant with the non compliant.
Every time someone claims that even if true...it wasn`t a big deal and folks should just get over it...HOPEFULLY there will be someone with the courage to stand up and testify to the life long impact and struggle to over come the devistating actions of these men.
HOPEfully in all of the stories, people can come to grips with the reality of the toxicity of twi and the need for carefull re evaluation of the doctrines that even today damage our lives.
Hopefully you will never be able to shame people into silence ever again. People need to know the truth in order to begin the healing.
i brought up marsha's story (i hope she's not around)
i got into "the way ministry" toward the end of my freshman year in college. i was 18 going on 19
i was very excited and thankful and all that. it was at this time the good doctor was pheasant hunting and came to see "his girls" (i was just a thrilled tag-along newbie)
i couldn't wait to meet this special man -- THE TEACHER
i went over to the college-wow-all-girl way home because he was actually there IN PERSON !!!!!!!
i walked past the bathroom door -- it was open -- glanced to the left -- where he turned and smiled at me and exposed himself. the gal undershepherding me said something like, "isn't he great, he's so spiritual, he doesn't even think about the flesh....." something along those lines....
Excathedra, after Dr. Wierwille exposed himself to you, why did you hang around The Way International and Dr. Wierwille for years and years after?
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Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
dmiller
Dunno if I qualify as a *bitterness freak*, but I can answer part of your question.
Given the new board we are on now (thanks to Paw's diligence in keeping this site updated),
it is no longer possible to do the *conference calls* (via pm),
such as Mike did a coupla years ago.
I know that for a fact -- cause I was on several. :)
And -- (if I might add --- )
IF THIS WERE A PRO-PFAL site, sure --meebe we would be the outsiders,
and if such a *conference discussion* (like what happened before) were available,
it would avail us to use it to hide from the *positive people*.
I guess one has to adequately define *positive*.
Positive to you, might be a negative to me.
Positive to me, might be a negative to you.
(one man's trash is another man's treasure --- yada yada).
What I see here is the status of the board GSC.
It is a site dedicated to telling the truth about twi, what happened,
how it impacted, ruined, and changed lives forever.
Yes (I'll toss out a cookie crumb here) --- I had good times while in.
BUT WHEN I READ OF THE HORRENDOUS TREATMENT
that faithful followers suffered at the hands of those who were LEADERS,
involved in and perpetuating drugging and rape of teen-age women --
I have to ask myself ----
WHAT SANE PERSON WOULD CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR???
(caps for BOTH shouting, as well as emphasis).
Actions speak louder than words.
Twi spoke most efficaciously ---
without saying a word at all.
:(
(EFS)
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rascal
Oh there now Johniam....THAT was positive and upbeat :) Thank you for that bit of edification...just exactly the sort of thing one would expect to hear from their brother in Christ ...snort
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GarthP2000
Gad, this is getting totally ridiculous:
Then apparently you haven't read them thoroughly, because a lot of those allegations have had detailed explanations, others who verified aforementioned behavior with what they have witnessed/experienced, and even verified witness accounts in various related court cases which further proved that these 'allegations' did indeed occur. And one thing an attorney (a good one) will tell you is that, like the biblical concept of getting multiple witnesses ("by two or more witnesses shall a man be condemned") is a sound one in just about any court.So just because the accused (VPW) is now dead, and can't 'face his accusers, that gets him off the hook as far as this 'all-American principle' is concerned? Hey, Hitler's dead too, and cannot face his accusers either. So why shouldn't the world just drop all the 'negative accusations' against him too? ... Hopefully, you now see the flaw with how you're using this 'principle'.
Your comparison of the accusations of VPW, and those made against the Duke team are hideously flawed. You make the erroneous transposing of the Duke team situation over to Wierwille and Co. And yes Virginia, it IS erroneous.
How many Americans gave their lives for people like Wierwille and his blind goosesteppers to take advantage of people like that, and hide behind the Bill of Rights to escape accountability, hmmmmm? ... Correct Answer: NONE!
Speaking of Project Innocence, ask them, based on all the accounts here, and the opposing 'witness', about whether they would render Wierwille as innocent as the people who they actually believe is innocent. ... I'd be willing to bet solid $$$$$ that they wouldn't appreciate you're using them as a reference for Wierwille's crap! ..... Go ahead, ask them. ........ I dare you!
Johniam,
Your arguments are so weak, I almost feel like I'm beating up a mentally handicapped person by responding, ... but I'll respond anyway.
Us 'bitterness freaks', who are *exclusively* singled out for that label, and for no better reason than our voicing our distaste for Wierwille and his ilk (and you damn well know it) know why we are continuing to do so. And it isn't 'to be seen of men' as you so blithely put it. But that is how Wierwille defind it, isn't it? So that is why you mindlessly swallow that mentality and think you're being sooo biblical and godly.
Yeah, right. Thanks for the reminder of why I left.
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GarthP2000
Perhaps one would/should come up with a follow-up question:
WHAT SANE GOD WOULD CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR???
Think about that one for a moment, VPW defenders. If you are standing up for the Principles and Truths of the One True God by voicing the things you are saying here, . . . . . what does that say about your God and His Word, ... hmmmm? What does that say about how your God would comparatively deal with those who were abused at the hands of VPW vis-a-vis His Word as portrayed in PFAL, and as to which is more important?
You complain about the seemingly never-ending tirade of negative whining and complaining against Wierwille and Co., and why we all don't "just get over it!" (well, for one thing, nobody's _making_ you read this discomforting material, ... are they?)
I notice that a lot of you whine and complain against Democrats, liberals, individuals who get off scot-free in our flawed judicial system, illegal immigrants, etc., etc., ad nauseum. ..... Waitaminute! What about the principle of not being so god-danged negative? Hell some of you go more ape-s**t over Hillary than Catcup or Excie does over VPW! ..... WTF is up with that contradiction?! :unsure:
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WhiteDove
Oh, and Whitedove, your approach and (mis)usage of "we gotta have proof of the accusing accounts given" is just that, ... a misusage. Because you take these accounts to ANY court in the country, with the documentation and supporting witnesses, ... and even a 1st year law student could get a _proving_ conviction with his/her eyes closed. ... In a heartbeat.
I see you read what I said as well as some others Garth ,not surprised. I spoke for myself and myself alone "I" don't accept internet stories especially anonymous ones. That as I said several times (I'm sure you missed that as well) does not make them true or make them false it also makes no one a liar. Just that I can not verify the information and I by choice which I have a right to don't accept unverifiable information especially from faceless people on the net. This by the way has nothing exclusive to do with Way issues even ,it could be an account of a dogfight or some other issue. There have been a few stories here on GS from time to time that have surfaced and later debunked that people got sucked in to because the took people at face value, Sorry I don't nothing personal I extend that policy to everyone ,it is ridicules to not consider that in accepting information as fact or truth.
In regard to your court comments these accounts have not been tried in any court yet you treat them like they have, you have ruled them case closed solved without the benefit of trial. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad I'm not asking or even suggesting that they need to be either. Only that it is possible just maybe that all the facts have not been presented. even in court we do get the benefit of hearing from both sides after all, a luxury we will not get here in this case.
Is one sided testimony a part of your court as well? Would that fly as you say? Doubtful..... How can one really render a fair and balanced verdict hearing one side would you like those odds if you were on trial? Doubtful.
My problem really was with claims that can not be substantiated specifically if you read back my first posts that someone is an eyewitness when they were not at the scene even. You say that will fly in court I doubt it Garth. That defies what a eyewitness is and yet it is ok to say these things just do and say whatever because " we don't like the way" I don't either but they have a right to be treated without dishonest speech you can't just make s**t up. Hearing a story after the fact is not an eyewitness look it up.
eye·wit·ness
–noun 1. a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder.
–verb (used with object) 2. to view with one's own eyes: to eyewitness a murder.
Here is what she said by her own words
She talked to me when she got back does that sound anything remotely like (a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it.) Not really yet now she is accepted as a eyewitness just like that...POOF and will down the road be forever quoted in future threads as one like it is truth. It's not it is fabricated BS and that is what I took exception with and other things like it . Of course rather than deal with the issues at hand as par for the course the subject is changed to wierwille supporters, worshipers, unsympathetic to blah blah rape pillage and anything to detract from the truth which was by definition she was wrong. and this is the kind of BS that has gone on too long.
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GarthP2000
WD,
What you keep failing to notice/acknowledge is the many instances of abuse committed by VPW (and other TWI leadership) that HAVE been substantiated by others, and not only by other victims, but by those in former TWI leadership positions who have blown the whistle on activities like this. Leaders like:
Ralph Dobofsky
John Lynn
John Schoenheit
Vince Finnigan
Steve Sann
Sue Pierce
and plenty others, ALL who have witnessed firsthand the abuses which are plainly illustrated here. Witnesses who _know_ of FAR more valid information about such than you ever will. And I find it totally incredulous that you also dismiss out of hand Catcup's account, and that of Marsha, without giving them any serious consideration!
How much documentation/independent verification do you need before you accept the word given by those here and elsewhere that this s**t occured, hmmmm? Frankly, I think you use the "You must verify/document these occurances" as a smoke screen of denial because you have some sort of difficulty accepting that these occurances happened, perpetrated by VPW. I might be wrong in that rendering, but ya know something, when you keep hammering for more and more and more evidence that, for all practical purposes, pert near consists of actual video footage, in color, of the event, signed and notarized documents attesting to that the occurance of said event did indeed occur, written confessions of the accused, in triplicate and on legal sized paper, yadayadayada, ... I gotta start questioning what your real motives are here, as you seem to treat the accounts as tho' they were made on a whim by disgruntled ex-Wayfers who just wanted to carry a grudge. :unsure:
You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard.
One more point tho. Please don't insult our intelligence with this presumptuous swill that, because we (supposedly and allegedly) aren't applying the same level of legal standard that you do and expect in your (supposed) appeal to American legal principle, that we are somehow less embracing and believing in that principle of innocent until proven guilty than you are. The only real difference here is that we believe that enough evidence has been given to convict, whereas you do not. ... And it goes no farther than that.
So please spare us the stomach turning 'wrap yourself in the American flag' facade.
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Dot Matrix
Well, so much has happened since I was here last.
I only brought up the DOCTRINE vs. mistake because people always discuss David's mistake with Bethsheba and Uriah. He made a terrible mistake and repented.
VPW made a Doctrine, a way of life out of hurting women, he taught it to the inner circle and demanded they comply. When they didn't they were "given" something to drink to make them comply. Men were told they could not go very far without the sexual "servicing" in their lives.
Very different from David. Who did it once and repented.
The thing that is shocking to me is the very MEN who claim to love God, to have learned so much from VPW, to still cling to the Word of God, are the ones lacking the most in simple compassion. Also they will not see, we really were in a cult VP started with the stolen works of a man of God, and his own doctrine of devils. VP was brilliant. The devil was brilliant. What a way to take people out! Allow them the deliverance of the Word of God, get them excited, then switch the product.
I had great times in the counterfeit BG Leonard class known as "PFAL". But all those times I had where God was able to work were short lived compared to the doctrine of devils that followed
Once freed from the doctrines of devils, I was able to resume my studies. First, I did get BG's book.
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Dot Matrix
Garth said "You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard."
Very sad, but true. Personally, I like WD because I feel he really is committed to trying to "stand" and he likes Melanie (the singer). I just feel it is very sad he has as one of his role models "VPW" ( The typical response will be show me where I SAID role model)
He doesn't know VPW or me. But with being here 8 years or whatever it has been, I think he has had as much time to see that I am real. He saw VP as real and hears the terrible things he did. The only difference can be that VPW reached his heart with great things.... Those things were classes such as PFAL. I also got great deliverance in PFAL. But there comes a time to realize the class and VPW are not synonymous.
If anyone really kicks it in with Discerning, they might see that VPW bringing the PFAL class to us was the greatest bait and switch scam I have ever seen. Steal a great class, call it your own. The word of God in that class DID help me. Then, have VPW show his doctrine of devils to a grateful following.
Many of these guys say they would have walked away, I think not. I bet some of you would have fallen prey to whatever he spoke as being some sort of truth, and had you have received the German pecker in your “rearend” after being given a drink- this whole forum would be about you guys screaming to be heard, warning us, and trying to help others out of the web of lies woven on the foundation of truth ferreted out of the Bible by other men; true God-loving men.
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Dot Matrix
And Mr. Lingo
Had you awakened in the motor coach without any pants on, a sore bum, telltale seamen on said sore bum after having a "drink" with VPW -
I dare say, this forum would be about the day VP was beaten to death by Johnny Lingo
There would be no spin off cults or accolades.
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Oakspear
With the story suitably embroidered...
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pond
it is clear to me why twi fell apart after reading this thread.
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Ham
Yep. It is even more clear why they covered, fired people, squirmed, threatened and bullied to keep all of this quiet. Not to mention the legal possibilities, I think we would have fled decades before had we known.
They were afraid for vic's "legacy" for more reasons than one.
I wonder how "above board" they are now..
loy was no better than "pappy" either. If the court records are right, they kept up this same kind of nonsense into the late 1990's.
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Ham
Yep.. and what became of that little fiasco..
The only ran ONE scum of the earth out of the joint..
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pond
some want the others to "move on" and not be a victim.
yet here they are in the same web site , living in the same "past" but with different colored horse. still just as serious about getting their own message said.
it is the same camp folks, but different focus of what is important to you.
johnny i know pfal is important to you and your serious, just as those who speak of the sex stuff feel it is important.. same things different plots.
but consider it is an EX way site.
and the victim thing isnt wrong johnny it isnt wrong to admit your hurt. it doesnt mean life is damaged beyond any reasonable happiness. you learned in the way any sort of hurt or sickness or depression or wrong was from the devil.
could be . but the people who had the experience in their life were are not the devil. they are God beloved.
Jesus was a victim of murder. is that not an example of love ? he didnt wake up that morning and say geez this will be a good day he had alot of pain and turmoil knowing He would suffer and die. and his brothers slept and didnt have a clue how to help him even when He asked them to pray they wouldnt sleep was better.
would you consider Jesus christ a victim?
he suffered and told a great many tales of woe and misery betrayal all of it.
some of this thread shows how this site gets to personal one on on in fighting, which is what happened in twi.
i love that mouse picture he looks so warm and cuddly . and it fits your writings Mr. Hammeroni.
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skyrider
How about adding some supportive evidence as well?
Drambuie-drinking wierwille ---- often, mixed in his coffee while he taught the corps
Women on the motorcoach ----- few men were ever "invited" to travel with vpw
Martindale's confessions and lifestyle --- attributing things back to what vpw exhorted him to do
Martindale's demise and ouster
Thanks to men and women like P@ul and Fxrn Allen......and his computer skills to upstart WAYDALE and expose twi's manipulation and abuse.....AND slapping a law suit on Martindale and the gang of which was settled out of court to keep other sordid details from public consumption....
IMO, it shows that Wierwille groomed Martindale and the motorcoach-mania persisted.
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Bramble
If it is any comfort at all to those that feel they are
...
I suspect there are plenty of lurkers who will read this thread and immediately recognise the lack of empathy and compassion in TWI styled men of God...and it will cause good men and women to pause and reexamine what they think and believe.
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WhiteDove
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rascal
I agree bramble. At least that is what helped me years ago.
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WhiteDove
Dot I can't say what I would have done if I was a young girl in that situation, I'd like to think I would have remained true to what I had learned and stood on scripture. But who knows? And even if I did my stand is not the issue. My only response to this was if one does put ones self in harms way after knowing of danger then at some point we have personal responsibility another words don't walk down second street at 3:00 am and wonder why you got mugged. In the case of M's account and her account only, I did note that it was not correct to say she had no chance to walk away by her own account she was in her car and in a rage flinging gravel on the motor coach. she was free and clear she made the choice for reasons unknown to return with the full knowledge of the potential danger and no support . Should she have had to have had that Absolutely not, she should have felt safe there. But she knew better when she returned, I don't know the reasons for her mistake but from looking at the record it is clear she did have a chance to get away in fact was in her car and away. Not everyone I know had that same opportunity but in her case she did, to ignore that information was being less than honest. I was not asking for judgment only acknowledgment of the facts that were presented.
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J0nny Ling0
And so now I and my son are sexual predators. Wow. That's quite a stretch. My son makes the statement comncerning people being hurt over twenty years ago by a man who is now dead by saying; "Only a fool goes into the future backwards", and now we are both sexual predators. Wow. Even if you don't like that statement, your conclusion is preposterous. I'm done with you too. And, I guess this thread is as derailed as any I have ever seen. Even more so.
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WhiteDove
Oh jonny there is still hope someday I may get to things I learned then again maybe not :blink:
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rascal
Snort...not that you didn`t have a thing to do with it eh Jonny?
Maybe sexual predator was a bit strong....but never the less you seem to have imparted your own lack of understanding for the necessity of these topics and compassion regarding the people sharing them.
All I can say is that I sure hope that .....
Every time someone like deciderator says that the abuse was alie......hopefully there will be people to stand up and give testimony.
Every time someone claims that the women either deserved it or could have chosen differently.....hopefully someone will provide the accounts and information that show that drugging was rampant with the non compliant.
Every time someone claims that even if true...it wasn`t a big deal and folks should just get over it...HOPEFULLY there will be someone with the courage to stand up and testify to the life long impact and struggle to over come the devistating actions of these men.
HOPEfully in all of the stories, people can come to grips with the reality of the toxicity of twi and the need for carefull re evaluation of the doctrines that even today damage our lives.
Hopefully you will never be able to shame people into silence ever again. People need to know the truth in order to begin the healing.
WHo the heck are you to deny them that??
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oldiesman
Excathedra, after Dr. Wierwille exposed himself to you, why did you hang around The Way International and Dr. Wierwille for years and years after?
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Ham
Probably the same reason you stayed for YEARS, after being reduced to a pile of sobbing rubble who couldn't leave your room for days..
I always wanted to ask.. why DID you stay?
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