THE LAW OF BELIEVING

[skyrider]

It has always bothered me that we seemed to think in twi that somehow we, with our puny little brains, could keep God from acting by our believing. That because someone was "out of fellowship" that God COULDN'T do anything to protect them. That's a complete crock of poo. How can we possibly tell God what He cannot or can do? The entire concept was ridiculous.

Our focus should be on the actions God has taken and not on ourselves and our accomplishments. By completely ascribing to the "law" of believing, we make ourselves the focus of what God has or has not wrought in our lives, when all the glory should be going to God. Now, this is not to say that good things have not happened to people who did follow this teaching. I saw it myself in my own life. What I mean to say is that if the focus is only on believing and not on God, then it only glorifies the individual who did the work believing, and not on God who did the giving.

I hope that makes sense. It did to me.

This needs repeated. Thanks.

[waysider]

Jonny

I just posted behind you on another thread.

I'm not stalking you, honest.

With all due respect, I think what you are talking about in your post is having faith in God and believing in His ability to delivery what He promised.

I think there are probably a lot of folks who share that belief with you, myself included.

That is quite different from the "law" of believing that was promoted in The Way.

I don't disagree with you.

I simply think we are confusing two different things as being the same.

TWI's version wasn't about the goodness of God, it was about one's ability to manipulate a formula.

[excathedra]

shifra

1. Words of honor to our Father

2. Acknowledgment of "Thy will be done"

3. Statement of essential needs: food, forgiveness, guidance

4. More words of honor

that was really nice

i truly love the essential needs

[J0nny Ling0]

JJ and Waysider. I think we are on the same page also. When I was taught "The Law Of Believing", I just took it as a logical way to get to know God and receive His promises. I never "worked it" as we were taught (the camera analogy for instance), I just tried to trust God and not let fear get in the way of Trusting Him. Anyway, thanks for those posts you two! And you too Excathedra!

JL

Gotta go, my back is killing me from all of this typing! Think I'll drink some wine!

[Ham]

So, if my child is sick, I am not to pray for him to be healed? If I have lost my job to an earthquake, I am not to pray for a new one? If my truck dies, I am not to pray for a new one and the best possible deal? If I do happen to be in a mad rush to be somewhere, and traffic is heavy, I am not to pray to God for a break in the traffic so I can be where I need to be on time and to be able to keep my word to someone?

I ask humbly, have you ever been in that position?

I have..

I've found myself praying that a damn sickness would not claim my chilld's beauty..

let alone life..

[Ham]

Sorry Johnny... it just brings up a few memories..

:)

[Ham]

Hey.. the Cabernet isn't too bad..

:)

[George Aar]

"So, if my child is sick, I am not to pray for him to be healed? If I have lost my job to an earthquake, I am not to pray for a new one? If my truck dies, I am not to pray for a new one and the best possible deal? If I do happen to be in a mad rush to be somewhere, and traffic is heavy, I am not to pray to God for a break in the traffic so I can be where I need to be on time and to be able to keep my word to someone?"

By all means.

But, why limit your options? Why not rub your rabbit's foot, chant the diamoku, and pray the Rosary as well? If a little superstition is good, more must be better, right?

[Jeaniam]

"So, if my child is sick, I am not to pray for him to be healed? If I have lost my job to an earthquake, I am not to pray for a new one? If my truck dies, I am not to pray for a new one and the best possible deal? If I do happen to be in a mad rush to be somewhere, and traffic is heavy, I am not to pray to God for a break in the traffic so I can be where I need to be on time and to be able to keep my word to someone?"

By all means.

But, why limit your options? Why not rub your rabbit's foot, chant the diamoku, and pray the Rosary as well? If a little superstition is good, more must be better, right?

I (and, I think some of the other posters) don't regard prayer to an all-loving Father to be in the same category as the superstitions you mentioned.

[J0nny Ling0]

But, why limit your options? Why not rub your rabbit's foot, chant the diamoku, and pray the Rosary as well? If a little superstition is good, more must be better, right?

Whatever, George...

And Ham, if you have been there, I am so sorry. Did you lose one of your children? If so, I am so sorry Brother. I have in fact spent many a night up in prayer for my four kids, for various situations covering sickness, to them as teenagers "out the road partying" to having gone through major surgery, etc.

Edited July 28, 2007 by Jonny Lingo

[WordWolf]

JJ and Waysider. I think we are on the same page also. When I was taught "The Law Of Believing", I just took it as a logical way to get to know God and receive His promises.

I never "worked it" as we were taught (the camera analogy for instance), I just tried to trust God and not let fear get in the way of Trusting Him.

(snip)

That was very naughty of you. And rather sensible, for that matter. Did you ever get in trouble

for it? Or did they just save that for when they caught you fishing?

[minicorpse]

I (and, I think some of the other posters) don't regard prayer to an all-loving Father to be in the same category as the superstitions you mentioned.

of course you don't. neither did TWI.

wikipedia says:

"In keeping with the Latin etymology of the word, religious believers have often seen other religions as superstition. Likewise, atheists, agnostics, deists, and skeptics regard religious belief as superstition... From the broadest perspective, all religion is a form of superstition.

Religious practices are most likely to be labeled "superstitious" by outsiders when they include belief in extraordinary events (miracles), an afterlife, supernatural interventions, apparitions or the efficacy of prayer, charms, incantations, the meaningfulness of omens, and prognostications."

i am reminded here of TWI's self-righteous (ie: cultish) habit of using terms like "religious" or even "christian" in a pejorative sense to apply to everyone but themselves. meanwhile they are just calling the kettle black. all belief systems are all just different means to the same ends...

Edited July 28, 2007 by minicorpse

[J0nny Ling0]

That was very naughty of you. And rather sensible, for that matter. Did you ever get in trouble

for it? Or did they just save that for when they caught you fishing?

No, I never got in trouble for living that way, or for teaching "the Law Of Believing" opn my own terms. Basically, when I taught about believing, I just taught ias a mind set where you just expect to receive from God because He said He'd supply, and it was only logical that He would come through because He loves us because He is our Father in Heaven. So, just pray, request, and expect. Uh oh, sounds like a Formula! "PRE". Now, just chant this over and over in your minds, nice and softly now, "Pray-Request-Respect. Pray-Request-Respect." Now breathe deeply....."Pray-Request Expect.... PRE...PRE...PRE...."

Um, sorry bout that... :blink:

[Ham]

No I didn't lose a child. But a close set of friends did, who had a child with the very same disease. They were "believers" as well as I.

I couldn't say at that they didn't "believe".. they prayed, did mostly the same things I did..

so I've seen life, and death, in the same kind of situation.

Am I thankful my child survived? Yeah. But can I boast of the deliverance, and victory? There are those who took the same action as I that cannot.

[Oakspear]

I think the difference between what Shifra posterd:

1. Words of honor to our Father

2. Acknowledgment of "Thy will be done"

3. Statement of essential needs: food, forgiveness, guidance

4. More words of honor

...and what you are talking about Mr. Lingo, is the difference between expecting God will work it all out for you, because he loves you, and accepting when it doesn't go as planned, and asking for specific things and expecting exactly what you asked. After all, what do you do when you don't get what you ask for? (rhetorical question)And nobody always gets what they pray for.

If you're praying for these specifics, but excusing it somehow when you don't receive, how is that different than what Shifra posted?

[J0nny Ling0]

how is that different than what Shifra posted?

Shifra also had a tag on the end of that post that said something like; "It didn't say anything about red drapes". Well, I believe in "red drapes", and I think that many other verses of scripture support the requesting of specific things. Matt 21:22 is a fine example of that. I have prayed for many specific things, and have gotten very specific answers to those prayers. I believe that God thrills to have us, His little kids, ask him for specific things. I thrill when I am able to give to my kids, the desires of their hearts. And why would God not want us to see "red drapes"?

But yes, you are right, many of the things that Shifra mentioned in her micro version of the Lord's Prayer are similar to what I said about specific things.

[Jeaniam]

I don't think God cares very much about red drapes, but this particular person NEEDED an apartment, NEEDED drapes in the living room, and WANTED those drapes to be red, and so God, who does care about this particular person, arranged for there to be red drapes in the living room. I agree with Jonny that I have seen many times in my life when I have prayed for things in great detail and in every case God has given me what I asked for and usually more beside.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Jeaniam

[WordWolf]

Supposing that person even existed.

We did note that the entire story does not appear in the Orange Book,

only in the class the Orange Book was taken from.

The class segment had the noteworthy line

"She had a need. And the need was, they might as well be red drapes."

[Oakspear]

Okay JL, you're right, though I can't offhand think of any, lets stipulate that there are verses that describe asking/praying for specific things.

My problem with that is there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when prayers get results and when they don't.

Now I'm not arguing that results never follow prayer. If you, for instance say that you prayed for a case of Leinenkugel's beer, and I showed up on your doorstep with a case of Lenenkugel for you, then you would have indeed received as you believed. I would be a fool to try and argue that you didn't pray and an even bigger fool to argue that I didn't have the beer! (There's 23 bottles to a case, right? ) - I won't even argue (I'll save it for some other thread) that you don't know that God supplied the beer or that it was coindicence etc. I'm willing to stipulate for the sake of this discussion that God worked in me to get you that beer, thus answering your prayer.

Here's my problem: what are the guidelines for when prayer gets answered and when it doesn't? There doesn't seem to be any. Some say "believe". Well and good; but other than in hindsight concluding that believing didn't take place because receiving did not occur, how do we know when we're believing or not?

Why oh why do some prayers yield the desired results and some do not? I can think of several reasons:

1) God is a loving father who supplies our needs as he sees fit without regard to our wants or requests. Sometimes there will be a concurrence of what we ask for and what God says we need, sometimes not. So asking is not strictly necessary.

or

2) Maybe it is formulaic. Perhaps this receiving is more along the lines of what magickal practioners or the writer of "The Secret" envision (or VP Wierwille), that there is some mental manipulation of reality that is limited by our skill at it. Those who are bad at this magic will get worse reults than those who are good at it. Kind of like how throwing a baseball is a skill. Even the best pitchers don't throw stikes 100% of the time.

I have no issue with you Christians wanting your view of prayer to match the bible, but I would imagine that it should match real world results as well.

[exwaycorps]

Leinenkugel's YUMM-O

berry wiess...apple spice (out of season)

praying hard ...*looking out the window*

where is Oakspear with my beer ???????

LOL JK

[doojable]

I have no issue with you Christians wanting your view of prayer to match the bible, but I would imagine that it should match real world results as well.

...you Christians...?

Speaking for me and "my people" please don't lump us all together. ;)

I finally decided that all prayer gets answered - but sometimes the answer is, "No."

I gave up long ago trying to figure out a formula that somehow allowed me to use God as my marionette. If I can pull the strings and yank His chain - then he's not much of a "god."

That's it...nothing more to say... for now... ;)

[J0nny Ling0]

Here's my problem: what are the guidelines for when prayer gets answered and when it doesn't? There doesn't seem to be any.

Well, you say that there doesn't seem to be any guidelines, but:

"And all things whatsoever you shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive..." Matt 21:22

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].

Mark 11:24

I just can't see how there would be a clearer guideline that that, and straight from the Master Believer himself, Jesus The Christ. Maybe the problem is that sometimes it doesn't "seem fair" that some prayers are answered and others not. All I can say is that if there is a problem between the one making the request (the human), and the One who says that He will answer the prayer if believing is supplied, I am willing to bet on the human being the one who is in error, and not God or His Word. And that is how I have always gone with it, and I have had no problems with Jesus' edicts concerning how to pray and to pray for "things".

But, if one is not a Christian, or is no longer a Christian, this whole biblical point of view is moot to those in that category. But, I am a Christian believer, I believe in the Bible as God's Word, and, I love to tell this story, of Jesus an his love...

Edited July 29, 2007 by Jonny Lingo

[waysider]

SNIP

.But, if one is not a Christian, or is no longer a Christian, this whole biblical point of view is moot to those in that category. But, I am a Christian believer, I believe in the Bible as God's Word, and, I love to tell this story, of Jesus an his love...

SNIP

OK, Jonny, I see your point.

But, it was Wierwille, himself, who said, in PFAL, that "the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike."

It would appear to me that what you are describing may not be the same thing as this "law" that was promoted in The Way.

I could be wrong.

That's just my observation.

[Oakspear]

Leinenkugel's YUMM-O

berry wiess...apple spice (out of season)

praying hard ...*looking out the window*

where is Oakspear with my beer ???????

LOL JK

Honey Weiss, Bigg Butt , Red and Creamy dark for me

...you Christians...?

Speaking for me and "my people" please don't lump us all together. ;)

Oops! Sorry! :unsure:

I finally decided that all prayer gets answered - but sometimes the answer is, "No."

I understand, so are you saying that it's basically the loving father taking care of you as he sees fit model, or something like it?

I gave up long ago trying to figure out a formula that somehow allowed me to use God as my marionette. If I can pull the strings and yank His chain - then he's not much of a "god."

I don't think that the folks who pray for specifics are trying to "yank God's chain" - just trying to understand how belief in answered prayer can be reconciled with the lack of answers.

That's it...nothing more to say... for now... ;)

:) Edited July 29, 2007 by Oakspear

[Oakspear]

Well, you say that there doesn't seem to be any guidelines, but:

"And all things whatsoever you shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive..." Matt 21:22

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].

Mark 11:24

I just can't see how there would be a clearer guideline that that, and straight from the Master Believer himself, Jesus The Christ.

Okay, there's the guideline, BELIEVE - yeah, I get it, I can still read the bible - but it still goes back to, how do you know, other than in hindsight whether you are "believing" or not. If the only way you can tell is after the fact, then it's circular.

Maybe the problem is that sometimes it doesn't "seem fair" that some prayers are answered and others not.

If you're speculating that perhaps that's my perception, then you are incorrect, just trying to understand the logic of which ones get answered and which ones don't; fairness is another topic in my opinion.

All I can say is that if there is a problem between the one making the request (the human), and the One who says that He will answer the prayer if believing is supplied, I am willing to bet on the human being the one who is in error, and not God or His Word.

Yup, from a bible-believing standpoint I would agree with you 100%, but if you think that you're believing but aren't getting results, how can you know in advance taht you're not?

And that is how I have always gone with it, and I have had no problems with Jesus' edicts concerning how to pray and to pray for "things".

Hey if it works for you, go for it, but do you even know when you're going to get results and when not? I would guess that the answer is "no". But I could be wrong

But, if one is not a Christian, or is no longer a Christian, this whole biblical point of view is moot to those in that category.

No, it isn't moot if I am interested in the answer, and dismissing me as a non-Christian (if that's what you are doing) is not answering the question.

But, I am a Christian believer, I believe in the Bible as God's Word, and, I love to tell this story, of Jesus an his love...

And I respect that and am happy that you are secure in that. But we're having a discussion here, you're free of course to reply with "that's just what I believe" but it doesn't really further the discussion.

I'm not trying to trash your beliefs.