I spell it corpEs on purpose. Seems to me in hindsight, that it was necessary to murder something inside to survive the training :( Kind of like the walking dead)
It is just as I thought, those principles sound pretty neat on paper, but in hind sight starkly lacking as far as the christian walk.
What good are any of those things going to be for you or anybody else if you have forgotten decency, basic moral character and integrety, fruit of the spirit, and love God and love your neighbor?
A little modification was in order for the Corps principles:
#1 Acquire a skewed perception and awareness of the utter depths of legalism and indentured servitude in TWI – so you will learn to love it. [Note: The big payoff for indentured servitude – possibly a gift ministry…maybe…]
#2 Receive training in the whole PFAL series, so as to be able to teach others also.
#3 Physical pain - abusing your physical body for the work of TWI to the point you look [and feel] like a vehicle after a bad wreck.
#4 Practice deceiving yourself into giving any material abundance you acquire to TWI. When they talk about a non-profit operation it is actually in reference to you.
#5 Go forth as manipulators and moochers in areas of concern, interest and need. Before you go – check with TWI leadership on the specifics of those areas – they're more than happy to point you in the right direction.
#5 Go forth as manipulators and moochers in areas of concern, interest and need. Before you go – check with TWI leadership on the specifics of those areas – they’re more than happy to point you in the right direction.
Good description of reality. The sycophants always seemed to know who had money, before they even arrived in the area..
I remember one of them being "helped" out of trouble by someone with money and influence.. another one of those surrealistic moments, the sycophant talking to the "money man" in a closed room, loud enough to be heard on the other half of the house. Asked the money guy "Can't we just bribe the judge??"
SOB probably thought I was a bump on a log somewhere, and couldn't put two and two together..
Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry
maybe that's the figure where the last is put first, or is it the first last. Seems it was always about "da ministry", it's elegance, prestige, resources, money..
Off topic? I thought it was on, at least in my strange, out of control way of thinking..
Naw.. this was the picture I had in my mind:
"Believer":
"Ummph, I'm believing.. (takes a deep breath) I'm believing.. takes another deep breath.. I'm belieeeeving (lungs now well over full mark, believer straining for all it's worth)..."
then I found that pic.. I thought oh my:
it looked like some "believers" I knew..
I honestly think we were taught not believe, but to be gas bags..
At my most swelled, puffed up moments, I couldn't bring to pass the righteousness of God, or even get the first parking spot in front of Kmart, for that matter..
Just finished this lengthy thread, and realized a few things... Mainly how much God and our relationship with Him had nothing to do with believing as we were taught it.
For instance, Matthew 21:22 In all things, whatsoever ye shall ASK in PRAYER, believing, ye shall receive.
I always "saw" the words "ask" and "prayer" but focused on the BELIEVING portion. The believing is just a description of how we are to ask God while praying... Which ties into another verse that was used to prove the "law of believing" from the scriptures:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
What are we supposed to believe in this verse? That God is - that He exists. That He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Simple enough.
But it seems to me that both verses focus on our relationship with God... asking God in prayer, believing that He is and that He rewards those who seek Him.
Funny.... never really saw it quite like that before... Too much BELIEVING getting in the WAY.
Funny.... never really saw it quite like that before... Too much BELIEVING getting in the WAY.
Very interesting that you said this in relation to one of my very favorite verses:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I used to love to teach that verse, but, when I did, I always focused on this part : "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is", and as you put it, "that He exists". To me, that was what I figured was "first things first". God exists, and once that was established in one's heart and mind, the believing part is easy! And so, I always thought it neat (and funny too) that God would include that in this verse, because really, it is something that no doubt we as God's people always have a hard time with, just being totally sure the "He is", that He exists. And when that is clear and real to us, then the believing thing is simple, easy, nuttin to it.
I hope you do realize I wasn't serious, okay? Or, maybe you referring to the fact that one guy I mentioned was kicked out of the Corps for having spelled those two words wrong.
I used to love to teach that verse, but, when I did, I always focused on this part : "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is", and as you put it, "that He exists". To me, that was what I figured was "first things first". God exists, and once that was established in one's heart and mind, the believing part is easy! And so, I always thought it neat (and funny too) that God would include that in this verse, because really, it is something that no doubt we as God's people always have a hard time with, just being totally sure the "He is", that He exists. And when that is clear and real to us, then the believing thing is simple, easy, nuttin to it.
Glad you enjoyed it, Johnny... I kinda got myself cut off before I was done with the full thought I was trying to convey - needed to feed my starving husband.
Anyway... I have been thinking a lot about this "law" of believing, and I think I (and maybe more than just me, from the looks of this thread) were trained to read that "law" into every verse that mentioned believing... we made that the focus of the verse. Really if you read Hebrews 11:6 it doesn't talk about us believing FOR things. It just states that we are to believe that God exists and that He is a rewarder. He wants us to believe that He wants the best for us. Not that we have to get the specifics right, that we have to work real hard to believe and picture the red drapes in our mind. We simply have to believe that whatever He will work in our lives as we pray will be the best thing for us. It will reward the search we have made for Him.
The "law" of believing is too constraining. By narrowing God and how He works into a mathematical formula, you cut out the immensity of His existence. God, in His very nature, is something we will never completely comprehend. If God does exist (as I have always been convinced He does) then He is altogether too immense for human comprehension. There are still thing about the human body that we don't fully understand. How can we understand the intelligence behind what created it?
It has always bothered me that we seemed to think in twi that somehow we, with our puny little brains, could keep God from acting by our believing. That because someone was "out of fellowship" that God COULDN'T do anything to protect them. That's a complete crock of poo. How can we possibly tell God what He cannot or can do? The entire concept was ridiculous.
Our focus should be on the actions God has taken and not on ourselves and our accomplishments. By completely ascribing to the "law" of believing, we make ourselves the focus of what God has or has not wrought in our lives, when all the glory should be going to God. Now, this is not to say that good things have not happened to people who did follow this teaching. I saw it myself in my own life. What I mean to say is that if the focus is only on believing and not on God, then it only glorifies the individual who did the work believing, and not on God who did the giving.
I hope you do realize I wasn't serious, okay? Or, maybe you referring to the fact that one guy I mentioned was kicked out of the Corps for having spelled those two words wrong.
I believe if I flip this light switch the lights will go on, big Efing deal. What would impress me is if the bill wasn't paid for 6 mos and the lights still came on. Idiots.
I haven't read this whole thread, so I may be repeating something here, but I just wanted to say that Jesus taught us to pray like this:
1. Words of honor to our Father
2. Acknowledgment of "Thy will be done"
3. Statement of essential needs: food, forgiveness, guidance
4. More words of honor
Pretty simple. And that second piece of the Lord's Prayer reflects exactly what Java just wrote about. Please note: no red drapes.
So, if my child is sick, I am not to pray for him to be healed? If I have lost my job to an earthquake, I am not to pray for a new one? If my truck dies, I am not to pray for a new one and the best possible deal? If I do happen to be in a mad rush to be somewhere, and traffic is heavy, I am not to pray to God for a break in the traffic so I can be where I need to be on time and to be able to keep my word to someone?
I am sorry, but I talk to God all day long, and I ask him for little stuff, big stuff, and when I do something right at work (fix something correctly, etc-I'm a "maintenance man" at a fish hatchery), I thank Him as I go for the priviledge to be alive, to have a (fairly) sound mind and able body to be able to fix something. I talk to God under my breath all of the time as I go about my day. I also ask God to show me what is wrong with a piece of machinery, and the best way to fix it. Naturally, this is coupled with the skills I have developed as a marine engineer/mechanic/carpenter etc, but I am always asking Him for help in my daily situations, and, He helps me out! When it comes to fixing stuff, I usually get a clear mind picture as I ponder and ask and explore, and then I say; "Oh! Thanks God!". And, if I am rushed to get to work, I do in fact mutter a thank you to Him if I catch a green light. I certainly don just recite the lord's prayer all day long. I think that'd be kind of limited, really.
"Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you. For he that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh shall find..." Jesus also said that too :)
I feel the same as you, Johnny... I talk to God all day long and thank Him for every good thing that happens to me. My point was not that you shouldn't ask for what you want, it was simply that we should believe that whatever God gives us in answer to that prayer will be better (Ephesians 3:20 comes to mind here) than maybe the specifics we were asking for.
In my opinion, the focus should be on asking God, having the relationship with Him, being able to talk with our Father and know He will reward us... Not focused on getting stuff.
And I don't think you are focused on getting stuff from your posts. You seem very in tune with God and you know that He is there to meet your needs in a very real way. WHICH IS GREAT!!
(I ask God for someone to bring donuts to work. Sometimes I get them, sometimes I don't - but I figure it's because my metabolism isn't quite what it used to be and He doesn't reward me by getting me fat!)
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Ham
"Super Duper Believer Squirrel"
maybe he just needs to pass some gas..
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Ham
So wise. Kinda looks like Yoda, doesn't he?
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Ham
Maybe looks more like Jabba..
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rascal
I spell it corpEs on purpose. Seems to me in hindsight, that it was necessary to murder something inside to survive the training :( Kind of like the walking dead)
It is just as I thought, those principles sound pretty neat on paper, but in hind sight starkly lacking as far as the christian walk.
What good are any of those things going to be for you or anybody else if you have forgotten decency, basic moral character and integrety, fruit of the spirit, and love God and love your neighbor?
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T-Bone
A little modification was in order for the Corps principles:
#1 Acquire a skewed perception and awareness of the utter depths of legalism and indentured servitude in TWI – so you will learn to love it. [Note: The big payoff for indentured servitude – possibly a gift ministry…maybe…]
#2 Receive training in the whole PFAL series, so as to be able to teach others also.
#3 Physical pain - abusing your physical body for the work of TWI to the point you look [and feel] like a vehicle after a bad wreck.
#4 Practice deceiving yourself into giving any material abundance you acquire to TWI. When they talk about a non-profit operation it is actually in reference to you.
#5 Go forth as manipulators and moochers in areas of concern, interest and need. Before you go – check with TWI leadership on the specifics of those areas – they're more than happy to point you in the right direction.
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Ham
Good description of reality. The sycophants always seemed to know who had money, before they even arrived in the area..
I remember one of them being "helped" out of trouble by someone with money and influence.. another one of those surrealistic moments, the sycophant talking to the "money man" in a closed room, loud enough to be heard on the other half of the house. Asked the money guy "Can't we just bribe the judge??"
SOB probably thought I was a bump on a log somewhere, and couldn't put two and two together..
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Bumpy
Hamm, I have nothing per se against furry, fluffy critters, but "bump on the log" is cutting it close
It was post #99 which reminded me of Animal Farm and the boss changing the rules! I think that book has a lot to say about a lot of things. :)
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J0nny Ling0
Very good Skyrider! Now you don't have to dio fifty push ups!
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Ham
maybe that's the figure where the last is put first, or is it the first last. Seems it was always about "da ministry", it's elegance, prestige, resources, money..
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pond
are they evil?
out of control thinking comes to mind.
and that is the other problem what exactly are we suppose to believe for?
they told us that to.
maybe just maybe they knew this mouse eh?
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Ham
Off topic? I thought it was on, at least in my strange, out of control way of thinking..
Naw.. this was the picture I had in my mind:
"Believer":
"Ummph, I'm believing.. (takes a deep breath) I'm believing.. takes another deep breath.. I'm belieeeeving (lungs now well over full mark, believer straining for all it's worth)..."
then I found that pic.. I thought oh my:
it looked like some "believers" I knew..
I honestly think we were taught not believe, but to be gas bags..
At my most swelled, puffed up moments, I couldn't bring to pass the righteousness of God, or even get the first parking spot in front of Kmart, for that matter..
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Ham
All that "believing", and then they blame the devil for giving them a hernia..
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johniam
...
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JavaJane
Just finished this lengthy thread, and realized a few things... Mainly how much God and our relationship with Him had nothing to do with believing as we were taught it.
For instance, Matthew 21:22 In all things, whatsoever ye shall ASK in PRAYER, believing, ye shall receive.
I always "saw" the words "ask" and "prayer" but focused on the BELIEVING portion. The believing is just a description of how we are to ask God while praying... Which ties into another verse that was used to prove the "law of believing" from the scriptures:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
What are we supposed to believe in this verse? That God is - that He exists. That He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Simple enough.
But it seems to me that both verses focus on our relationship with God... asking God in prayer, believing that He is and that He rewards those who seek Him.
Funny.... never really saw it quite like that before... Too much BELIEVING getting in the WAY.
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J0nny Ling0
Java Jane said:
Very interesting that you said this in relation to one of my very favorite verses:I used to love to teach that verse, but, when I did, I always focused on this part : "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is", and as you put it, "that He exists". To me, that was what I figured was "first things first". God exists, and once that was established in one's heart and mind, the believing part is easy! And so, I always thought it neat (and funny too) that God would include that in this verse, because really, it is something that no doubt we as God's people always have a hard time with, just being totally sure the "He is", that He exists. And when that is clear and real to us, then the believing thing is simple, easy, nuttin to it.
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Oakspear
F---ing spelling police
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T-Bone
Yo chief, we need to get an APB out on those missing letters.
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J0nny Ling0
I hope you do realize I wasn't serious, okay? Or, maybe you referring to the fact that one guy I mentioned was kicked out of the Corps for having spelled those two words wrong.
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JavaJane
Glad you enjoyed it, Johnny... I kinda got myself cut off before I was done with the full thought I was trying to convey - needed to feed my starving husband.
Anyway... I have been thinking a lot about this "law" of believing, and I think I (and maybe more than just me, from the looks of this thread) were trained to read that "law" into every verse that mentioned believing... we made that the focus of the verse. Really if you read Hebrews 11:6 it doesn't talk about us believing FOR things. It just states that we are to believe that God exists and that He is a rewarder. He wants us to believe that He wants the best for us. Not that we have to get the specifics right, that we have to work real hard to believe and picture the red drapes in our mind. We simply have to believe that whatever He will work in our lives as we pray will be the best thing for us. It will reward the search we have made for Him.
The "law" of believing is too constraining. By narrowing God and how He works into a mathematical formula, you cut out the immensity of His existence. God, in His very nature, is something we will never completely comprehend. If God does exist (as I have always been convinced He does) then He is altogether too immense for human comprehension. There are still thing about the human body that we don't fully understand. How can we understand the intelligence behind what created it?
It has always bothered me that we seemed to think in twi that somehow we, with our puny little brains, could keep God from acting by our believing. That because someone was "out of fellowship" that God COULDN'T do anything to protect them. That's a complete crock of poo. How can we possibly tell God what He cannot or can do? The entire concept was ridiculous.
Our focus should be on the actions God has taken and not on ourselves and our accomplishments. By completely ascribing to the "law" of believing, we make ourselves the focus of what God has or has not wrought in our lives, when all the glory should be going to God. Now, this is not to say that good things have not happened to people who did follow this teaching. I saw it myself in my own life. What I mean to say is that if the focus is only on believing and not on God, then it only glorifies the individual who did the work believing, and not on God who did the giving.
I hope that makes sense. It did to me.
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Oakspear
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Shifra
I haven't read this whole thread, so I may be repeating something here, but I just wanted to say that Jesus taught us to pray like this:
1. Words of honor to our Father
2. Acknowledgment of "Thy will be done"
3. Statement of essential needs: food, forgiveness, guidance
4. More words of honor
Pretty simple. And that second piece of the Lord's Prayer reflects exactly what Java just wrote about. Please note: no red drapes.
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Seth R.
I believe if I flip this light switch the lights will go on, big Efing deal. What would impress me is if the bill wasn't paid for 6 mos and the lights still came on. Idiots.
S
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J0nny Ling0
So, if my child is sick, I am not to pray for him to be healed? If I have lost my job to an earthquake, I am not to pray for a new one? If my truck dies, I am not to pray for a new one and the best possible deal? If I do happen to be in a mad rush to be somewhere, and traffic is heavy, I am not to pray to God for a break in the traffic so I can be where I need to be on time and to be able to keep my word to someone?
I am sorry, but I talk to God all day long, and I ask him for little stuff, big stuff, and when I do something right at work (fix something correctly, etc-I'm a "maintenance man" at a fish hatchery), I thank Him as I go for the priviledge to be alive, to have a (fairly) sound mind and able body to be able to fix something. I talk to God under my breath all of the time as I go about my day. I also ask God to show me what is wrong with a piece of machinery, and the best way to fix it. Naturally, this is coupled with the skills I have developed as a marine engineer/mechanic/carpenter etc, but I am always asking Him for help in my daily situations, and, He helps me out! When it comes to fixing stuff, I usually get a clear mind picture as I ponder and ask and explore, and then I say; "Oh! Thanks God!". And, if I am rushed to get to work, I do in fact mutter a thank you to Him if I catch a green light. I certainly don just recite the lord's prayer all day long. I think that'd be kind of limited, really.
"Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you. For he that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh shall find..." Jesus also said that too :)
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JavaJane
I feel the same as you, Johnny... I talk to God all day long and thank Him for every good thing that happens to me. My point was not that you shouldn't ask for what you want, it was simply that we should believe that whatever God gives us in answer to that prayer will be better (Ephesians 3:20 comes to mind here) than maybe the specifics we were asking for.
In my opinion, the focus should be on asking God, having the relationship with Him, being able to talk with our Father and know He will reward us... Not focused on getting stuff.
And I don't think you are focused on getting stuff from your posts. You seem very in tune with God and you know that He is there to meet your needs in a very real way. WHICH IS GREAT!!
(I ask God for someone to bring donuts to work. Sometimes I get them, sometimes I don't - but I figure it's because my metabolism isn't quite what it used to be and He doesn't reward me by getting me fat!)
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