On many Greasespot forums, one can see a variety of different attitudes toward TWI. Some take great pleasure in trying to show how many different things were wrong with TWI. Some are convinced that everything was wrong with it. Some are convinced they were brain-washed by this evil cult. Some still feel that TWI had many good things to offer but the leadership was all screwed up and treated people very badly.
I do not relish in bashing TWI to show great intellect. I don't relish in VPW dying in or in LCM's disgraceful exit from TWI. I never felt I was brain-washed. When I left in '87, I simply felt that I could not, in all good conscience, continue to associate with an organization where the top leadership had rejected rightful reproof and chose to continue in erroroneous doctrines.
I do still believe that there is clear and distinct evidence from the scriptures that Jesus Christ is not God. I do still believe that the dead are not alive now. I do still believe that the Bible does contain God's will for our lives. I do still believe that there are logical methods for ascertaining the meaning of scripture.
On the other hand, the only thing that the Bible clearly tells us about the original sin is that it was disobedience to God. As for the day Christ died, I have seen logical arguments for him dying on Wednesday, Friday, and, in one argument, Thursday, even. So, I am thankful for the sacrifice Jesus made so that we could be born again, regardless of what day it was. As for whether there were 2 or 4 that died with Christ, I don't know and don't know. What I care about is the one in the middle who died for our sins.
There is a clear difference between the Old Testament law of tithing of one-tenth of one's income and Corinthians which simply tells us to give as it is purposed in our hearts. Nowhere does Corinthians say that it has to be more than 1/10th.
I do believe that adultery is sin, and the leaders of TWI did not. I do believe that people who witness based upon the grateful in their hearts for what God did for them, not to impress others, especially leaders who pressure followers to perform or produce to some statistical level.
I am thankful for the time that I was in TWI. I developed a love for God and for the Lord Jesus Christ. I developed an understanding and an appreciation for God's Word. I am also thankful that people exposed the errors that the top leaders were propounding.
I have a tendency to agree with you; I find your statements well thought out, worked, and stated, Thank you, ((((((Biblefan Dave))))))))!
That condiment does seem to be in fairly abundant supply. Thanks for your post, Dave. I've often thought about that. Why do we as brothers try to "one up" one another? Some are even "bashers" of God; they're bigger than Him.
I noticed this in some of the pop books of psychology. I was simply trying to learn something by reading their books, but as they explained how superior their "breakthroughs" were over Frued's... how they'd moved beyond his simple/crude understanding, they seemed to me, at least, to be saying something Freud would have considered elementary, or what he easily could have disproven. They sold a lot of books, though. And now I've done it to them. Pass the prepositional phrase, please! I want to eat my own words.
TWI was thriving until the early 80's. Coinciding with LCM running the show, there were distinct changes in the attitude and atmosphere surrounding TWI. LCM's reign marked legalism where obedience to the organization superceded obedience to God. It was more important that the chairs were lined up perfectly than whether the teachings were properly researched. It was more important to have Corps people telling others what to do than following the spirit of God. It was more important to tell people what to do than offer true Christian counseling. It was more important to suppress hurt than to seek comfort and counsel from others.
All of the aforementioned items seemed to cloud the importance of God's Word. God magnified the Word above his name, not etiquette or perfect symettry nor how many people got signed up for PFAL nor how much some abundantly shared.
Yet, we did hear many great truths in teachings. Let's face it, we were encouraged to believe positively and that did help people accomplish many wonderful things. People did trust God and have tremendous fellowship with God and their fellow believers. Those are not minor things. I am sure God was thrilled by the great love those believers showed him.
We can't let hurt and bitterness destroy our relationship with our heavenly Father.
TWI was thriving until the early 80's. Coinciding with LCM running the show, there were distinct changes in the attitude and atmosphere surrounding TWI. LCM's reign marked legalism where obedience to the organization superceded obedience to God. It was more important that the chairs were lined up perfectly than whether the teachings were properly researched. It was more important to have Corps people telling others what to do than following the spirit of God. It was more important to tell people what to do than offer true Christian counseling. It was more important to suppress hurt than to seek comfort and counsel from others.
All of the aforementioned items seemed to cloud the importance of God's Word. God magnified the Word above his name, not etiquette or perfect symettry nor how many people got signed up for PFAL nor how much some abundantly shared.
Yet, we did hear many great truths in teachings. Let's face it, we were encouraged to believe positively and that did help people accomplish many wonderful things. People did trust God and have tremendous fellowship with God and their fellow believers. Those are not minor things. I am sure God was thrilled by the great love those believers showed him.
We can't let hurt and bitterness destroy our relationship with our heavenly Father.
I agree with you. Not that that matters but, I thought I'd let you know.
P.S. I think I might have mentioned (in a previous thread) earlier in my foray on GS that I held the pov that LCM was the wrong choice to take over as President of TWI. His arrogance was obvious to me even back then and what's the Word say about "pride goeth before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction" or something like that?
I think I might have mentioned (in a previous thread) earlier in my foray on GS that I held the pov that LCM was the wrong choice to take over as President of TWI. His arrogance was obvious to me even back then and what's the Word say about "pride goeth before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction" or something like that?
It's pretty much a consensus here that there was a least a dozen competent top people who would have
stepped up if asked, all of whom would have been a better choice than lcm.
(Which ones they are sometimes vary depending on the speaker- since some would name cg, some would name vf,
some would name neither, and so on.)
I don't think ANY of them-based on what I've seen since- would have been a PERFECT choice, but a few would have
been very good choices, and most of the "short list" would have been less awful even at their worst when in office.
People who were close have reported that vpw was recommended to a lot of people- none of whom were lcm.
However, he decided lcm would be it despite all considerations offered to him.
He gave one of two answers to the few he answered as to why:
A) lcm was the corps director, therefore, the corps would follow him without question
B) lcm never gave him an argument-whenever vpw told him to do something, he just did it, no questions.
Hindsight is 20/20, but if someone could not give me better reasons than that today, I'd know the organization
in question was steering on a course for destruction.
Hindsight is 20/20, but if someone could not give me better reasons than that today, I'd know the organization in question was steering on a course for destruction.
Well, that's where you and I differ. You're working from hindsight and I was working from foresight. I mentioned to quite a few (select) people back in my days that the ministry will fall. I saw the "handwriting on the wall." Some/many just couldn't see it. In fact I remember having one particular discussion with a leader about LCM and what I was seeing and her response to me was: "Larry, why can't I see what you see?" My answer was: "I don't know. Perhaps you're not ready to see it."
Having spent some time listening to all posters from the earliest days they've posted from, and
read what twi themselves have written, it's a little more complicated.
Despite them wishing otherwise, twi was greatly dependent upon the times and the "Zeitgeist."
twi didn't really exist beyond a double-handful of people-
despite having pfal and the pfal books-
until vpw selected the hippies of the House of Acts in Haight-Ashbury,
and recruited some of them into twi,
and convinced THEM to be his "sales force" for pfal.
Almost everyone who ever posted here can trace back, and back, and eventually point to one of
the handful as they were assigned to different locations.
(For example, if Steve H went to a place, he convinced people there twi had something to offer,
and they joined, and got involved, and THEY convinced people twi had something to offer,
and THOSE people joined, and so on.
That process slowed when the days of the hippie waned, and vpw indoctrinated people out of the
spontaneity and liberty that was once such a draw.
So, fewer people were convinced, and membership growth SLOWED.
However, with so many people now IN twi, a slower rate was STILL a sizeable number of people
joining each year. As legalism got stricter and stricter-which began at the end of vpw's reign
as he put more corps on-location locally. (Many corps absorbed the loyalty and obedience vpw
wanted them to learn, so this served him well when they did.)
Once lcm was in charge, this process sped up a LOT. However, it was already in place.
lcm was a lot more efficient, however, at choking all the spontaneity, joy, and freedom from people,
which led to membership numbers freefalling to current numbers of a few thousand adults where
tens of thousands freely acted and were involved.
Coinciding with LCM running the show, there were distinct changes in the attitude and atmosphere surrounding TWI. LCM's reign marked legalism where obedience to the organization superceded obedience to God. It was more important that the chairs were lined up perfectly than whether the teachings were properly researched. It was more important to have Corps people telling others what to do than following the spirit of God. It was more important to tell people what to do than offer true Christian counseling. It was more important to suppress hurt than to seek comfort and counsel from others.
All true. lcm learned it when HE was in the corps, he passed it on to all the corps when vpw put him in charge,
and he imposed it on EVERYONE eventually.
By this time, he was convinced this was "normal", since he'd spent almost his entire adult life fulltime on-grounds
at twi.
All of the aforementioned items seemed to cloud the importance of God's Word. God magnified the Word above his name, not etiquette or perfect symettry nor how many people got signed up for PFAL nor how much some abundantly shared.
True, and a pity, true it's a pity, and a pity it's true.
Yet, we did hear many great truths in teachings. Let's face it, we were encouraged to believe positively and that did help people accomplish many wonderful things. People did trust God and have tremendous fellowship with God and their fellow believers. Those are not minor things. I am sure God was thrilled by the great love those believers showed him.
I'm confident those were good things.
They weren't ALL things in twi, but those you mentioned were good things.
They meant people's lives, and those are not minor things!
We can't let hurt and bitterness destroy our relationship with our heavenly Father.
True.
So long as you don't say "that relationship=reproducing twi-classic all over again,"
I can get behind this.
Of course, I only speak for myself.
Well, that's where you and I differ. You're working from hindsight and I was working from foresight. I mentioned to quite a few (select) people back in my days that the ministry will fall. I saw the "handwriting on the wall." Some/many just couldn't see it. In fact I remember having one particular discussion with a leader about LCM and what I was seeing and her response to me was: "Larry, why can't I see what you see?" My answer was: "I don't know. Perhaps you're not ready to see it."
I'll take your word for it that you saw it then.
I'm also being honest that anyone looking back and trying to reconstruct thinking in the past
can sound a lot smarter than they would honestly have been at the time, since they can now
suppose they'd happen to have passed judgements that reflected what actually happened.
So, I THINK this would have been obvious to me if I'd been close enough, but since I was not,
I am sure God was thrilled by the great love those believers showed him.
I am, too, Dave. It is marvelous, really, that even in a messed-up situation, people can respond with pure hearts and with God's own love. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Not to be "moderate" or to excuse myself from being naive or whatever, but merely as an attempt to make sense of my experience with the way, not to mention my current experience with other churches.
Strange how we use "not to mention" just before mentioning something. contradictio absurdum
Just the Truth, ma'am. I'm wondering if that's not what is required of us throughout our time in this age... the reason "forbearance" is required. Because there doesn't seem to be any perfect churches out there -- good ones, better ones, but all flawed. So that I am not misunderstood, there is no place in "forbearance" for putting up with sin. But it as I sort out my TWI experience, it does seem that there is gold amid the dross. I loved. I know that, and I was loved. That's the stuff that remains when all else is burned.
I'm also being honest that anyone looking back and trying to reconstruct thinking in the past
can sound a lot smarter than they would honestly have been at the time, since they can now
suppose they'd happen to have passed judgements that reflected what actually happened.
So, I THINK this would have been obvious to me if I'd been close enough, but since I was not,
I can't guarantee it.
I can appreciate honesty. I can't say someone is honestly accurate in their reflections on what occurred in the past. The memory isn't always a reliable thing, especially when hurtful events occur.
In any case -- I think anyone who was more interested in what the Word had to say instead of what VP or LCM or whoever said "This is what the Word says" would have been able to see that many things they were saying were not accurate. So many people became spell-bound by leaders that they just couldn't see the trees through the forest.
I remember a time when I was driving with another believer to HQ (for Sunday night service) --- I asked him to go with me because I had sensed he was a bit nervous being with me. So during that long ride the conversation got around to why he was nervous around me. He essentially told me -- "Larry I know you're very knowledgeable about the Word and I'm afraid that I might say something wrong." I answered him: "If you're going to be impressed with me for anything, don't be impressed with me 'cause of the knowledge of the Word I have but rather be impressed with how much of the Word I apply. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies. Have I not been loving towards you?" He answered: "Very much so."
In any case -- I think anyone who was more interested in what the Word had to say instead of what VP or LCM or whoever said "This is what the Word says" would have been able to see that many things they were saying were not accurate. So many people became spell-bound by leaders that they just couldn't see the trees through the forest.
I think that is a fairly accurate statement, Larry. But from my own POV, my own "reasoning", it wasn't that I intentionally worshipped leadership. It wasn't even that I was out to impress them. It was simply that when leadership said something that didn't make sense to me, that I couldn't "see" in the Bible, I assumed (as I had been taught to assume) that the error was in MY UNDERSTANDING no in THEIR TEACHING.
I think that is a fairly accurate statement, Larry. But from my own POV, my own "reasoning", it wasn't that I intentionally worshipped leadership. It wasn't even that I was out to impress them. It was simply that when leadership said something that didn't make sense to me, that I couldn't "see" in the Bible, I assumed (as I had been taught to assume) that the error was in MY UNDERSTANDING no in THEIR TEACHING.
:)
Well Abi, I understand your point. But I think the teaching wasn't that if we couldn't understand what they were saying it must be in our own inability to understand but rather if we couldn't understand what the Bible was saying the error might be in our understanding. That's why it was important to study the Word and make it our "own". Not that we were suppose to study the TWI material and make it our own. What I saw with many people is they studied the latter more than the former to master TWI material rather than mastering the Word itself.
I suppose that's why I was considered such a rebel on so many occasions. :)
Well that might be what they were saying during your tenure with TWI. It may even be what VPW taught in PFAL (its been too long for me to really remember) but it was not what was taught or practiced during my time with TWI. We were taught obey, obey, obey your leadership!!! We were told the MOG certainly had a better understanding of "The Word" than any of us twiggies could ever possibly have - that he had forgotten more than we ever learned, etc. etc.
I did my time as a rebel in that regard too, for a time. Though I rebelled more in terms of what I saw as "practical error" than doctrinal error. As the kids came and the pressures increased within myself, my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole, I eventually stopped rebelling, stopped speaking up. I became desperate to keep my family intact and to protect my children, it all became very crazy, again, in my own mind, in my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole.
I say these things because I think it is very important to remember, as we interact here, that we all spent different time periods within TWI. That our experiences may be vastly different. I guess I think it is an inaccurate "blanket statement" to assume or infer that many of us were simply "spell-bound" by leadership. For many of us it was much more complicated than that.
There were issues regarding obeying spouses and how that was to be properly applied (which was about as clear as mud in TWI). There were issues regarding obeying leadership (which became so twisted and off the word!!!). There was fear of being marked and avoided and having your family ripped apart. Etc., etc.
Well that might be what they were saying during your tenure with TWI. It may even be what VPW taught in PFAL (its been too long for me to really remember) but it was not what was taught or practiced during my time with TWI. We were taught obey, obey, obey your leadership!!! We were told the MOG certainly had a better understanding of "The Word" than any of us twiggies could ever possibly have - that he had forgotten more than we ever learned, etc. etc.
I did my time as a rebel in that regard too, for a time. Though I rebelled more in terms of what I saw as "practical error" than doctrinal error. As the kids came and the pressures increased within myself, my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole, I eventually stopped rebelling, stopped speaking up. I became desperate to keep my family intact and to protect my children, it all became very crazy, again, in my own mind, in my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole.
I say these things because I think it is very important to remember, as we interact here, that we all spent different time periods within TWI. That our experiences may be vastly different. I guess I think it is an inaccurate "blanket statement" to assume or infer that many of us were simply "spell-bound" by leadership. For many of us it was much more complicated than that.
There were issues regarding obeying spouses and how that was to be properly applied (which was about as clear as mud in TWI). There were issues regarding obeying leadership (which became so twisted and off the word!!!). There was fear of being marked and avoided and having your family ripped apart. Etc., etc.
You're right and your points are good. And if I appeared to be making a "blanket" statement I stand corrected.
Thanks, Larry. You're a good guy. Sometime we just have to talk things out to clarify what is being said so that we aren't misunderstanding each other. :)
Thanks, Larry. You're a good guy. Sometime we just have to talk things out to clarify what is being said so that we aren't misunderstanding each other. :)
:) You should have been around when my brothers and I were talking things out. I sure do love those two!
Perhaps I'm a little late to the convo, and the whole analogy but...
Ever notice how that baby keeps getting so dirty all the damn time. Perhaps it is something about the nature of the baby and not what to do with all that dirty water.
It seems as though this thread was supposed to put a positive spin on what people did learn in PFAL and other teachings from TWI. I might have put things on a negative tone when I mentioned some of the bad things LCM did. And there is no denying that he did treat people in a very unbiblical manner. But I did learn who Jesus Christ was. I did see healing take place. I did begin to understand the Bible. I did develop a close relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
Certainly it would be nice if someone could wave the magic wand (no, I don't believe in sorcery or witchcraft) and erase all the bad memories and hurtful acts. But that isn't going to happen. It is up to each individual to come to terms with whatever bad feelings or hurt that TWI leaders caused.
Still, many good things did happen to me while I was in TWI. I feel that I left before things got really bad. So I don't have personal knowledge of what LCM and the other BOT did later on.
I feel it is important for me to remember the good things that happened when I was in TWI. There were many good people in TWI who loved God and wanted to serve him to the best of their abilities.
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RainbowsGirl
I have a tendency to agree with you; I find your statements well thought out, worked, and stated, Thank you, ((((((Biblefan Dave))))))))!
Love You Biblefan Dave, RainbowsGirl
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Oakspear
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anotherDan
That condiment does seem to be in fairly abundant supply. Thanks for your post, Dave. I've often thought about that. Why do we as brothers try to "one up" one another? Some are even "bashers" of God; they're bigger than Him.
I noticed this in some of the pop books of psychology. I was simply trying to learn something by reading their books, but as they explained how superior their "breakthroughs" were over Frued's... how they'd moved beyond his simple/crude understanding, they seemed to me, at least, to be saying something Freud would have considered elementary, or what he easily could have disproven. They sold a lot of books, though. And now I've done it to them. Pass the prepositional phrase, please! I want to eat my own words.
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Biblefan Dave
TWI was thriving until the early 80's. Coinciding with LCM running the show, there were distinct changes in the attitude and atmosphere surrounding TWI. LCM's reign marked legalism where obedience to the organization superceded obedience to God. It was more important that the chairs were lined up perfectly than whether the teachings were properly researched. It was more important to have Corps people telling others what to do than following the spirit of God. It was more important to tell people what to do than offer true Christian counseling. It was more important to suppress hurt than to seek comfort and counsel from others.
All of the aforementioned items seemed to cloud the importance of God's Word. God magnified the Word above his name, not etiquette or perfect symettry nor how many people got signed up for PFAL nor how much some abundantly shared.
Yet, we did hear many great truths in teachings. Let's face it, we were encouraged to believe positively and that did help people accomplish many wonderful things. People did trust God and have tremendous fellowship with God and their fellow believers. Those are not minor things. I am sure God was thrilled by the great love those believers showed him.
We can't let hurt and bitterness destroy our relationship with our heavenly Father.
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Larry N Moore
I agree with you. Not that that matters but, I thought I'd let you know.
P.S. I think I might have mentioned (in a previous thread) earlier in my foray on GS that I held the pov that LCM was the wrong choice to take over as President of TWI. His arrogance was obvious to me even back then and what's the Word say about "pride goeth before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction" or something like that?
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WordWolf
It's pretty much a consensus here that there was a least a dozen competent top people who would have
stepped up if asked, all of whom would have been a better choice than lcm.
(Which ones they are sometimes vary depending on the speaker- since some would name cg, some would name vf,
some would name neither, and so on.)
I don't think ANY of them-based on what I've seen since- would have been a PERFECT choice, but a few would have
been very good choices, and most of the "short list" would have been less awful even at their worst when in office.
People who were close have reported that vpw was recommended to a lot of people- none of whom were lcm.
However, he decided lcm would be it despite all considerations offered to him.
He gave one of two answers to the few he answered as to why:
A) lcm was the corps director, therefore, the corps would follow him without question
B) lcm never gave him an argument-whenever vpw told him to do something, he just did it, no questions.
Hindsight is 20/20, but if someone could not give me better reasons than that today, I'd know the organization
in question was steering on a course for destruction.
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Larry N Moore
Well, that's where you and I differ. You're working from hindsight and I was working from foresight. I mentioned to quite a few (select) people back in my days that the ministry will fall. I saw the "handwriting on the wall." Some/many just couldn't see it. In fact I remember having one particular discussion with a leader about LCM and what I was seeing and her response to me was: "Larry, why can't I see what you see?" My answer was: "I don't know. Perhaps you're not ready to see it."
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WordWolf
Having spent some time listening to all posters from the earliest days they've posted from, and
read what twi themselves have written, it's a little more complicated.
Despite them wishing otherwise, twi was greatly dependent upon the times and the "Zeitgeist."
twi didn't really exist beyond a double-handful of people-
despite having pfal and the pfal books-
until vpw selected the hippies of the House of Acts in Haight-Ashbury,
and recruited some of them into twi,
and convinced THEM to be his "sales force" for pfal.
Almost everyone who ever posted here can trace back, and back, and eventually point to one of
the handful as they were assigned to different locations.
(For example, if Steve H went to a place, he convinced people there twi had something to offer,
and they joined, and got involved, and THEY convinced people twi had something to offer,
and THOSE people joined, and so on.
That process slowed when the days of the hippie waned, and vpw indoctrinated people out of the
spontaneity and liberty that was once such a draw.
So, fewer people were convinced, and membership growth SLOWED.
However, with so many people now IN twi, a slower rate was STILL a sizeable number of people
joining each year. As legalism got stricter and stricter-which began at the end of vpw's reign
as he put more corps on-location locally. (Many corps absorbed the loyalty and obedience vpw
wanted them to learn, so this served him well when they did.)
Once lcm was in charge, this process sped up a LOT. However, it was already in place.
lcm was a lot more efficient, however, at choking all the spontaneity, joy, and freedom from people,
which led to membership numbers freefalling to current numbers of a few thousand adults where
tens of thousands freely acted and were involved.
All true. lcm learned it when HE was in the corps, he passed it on to all the corps when vpw put him in charge,and he imposed it on EVERYONE eventually.
By this time, he was convinced this was "normal", since he'd spent almost his entire adult life fulltime on-grounds
at twi.
True, and a pity, true it's a pity, and a pity it's true.
I'm confident those were good things.They weren't ALL things in twi, but those you mentioned were good things.
They meant people's lives, and those are not minor things!
True.
So long as you don't say "that relationship=reproducing twi-classic all over again,"
I can get behind this.
Of course, I only speak for myself.
I'll take your word for it that you saw it then.
I'm also being honest that anyone looking back and trying to reconstruct thinking in the past
can sound a lot smarter than they would honestly have been at the time, since they can now
suppose they'd happen to have passed judgements that reflected what actually happened.
So, I THINK this would have been obvious to me if I'd been close enough, but since I was not,
I can't guarantee it.
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anotherDan
I am, too, Dave. It is marvelous, really, that even in a messed-up situation, people can respond with pure hearts and with God's own love. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Not to be "moderate" or to excuse myself from being naive or whatever, but merely as an attempt to make sense of my experience with the way, not to mention my current experience with other churches.
Strange how we use "not to mention" just before mentioning something. contradictio absurdum
Just the Truth, ma'am. I'm wondering if that's not what is required of us throughout our time in this age... the reason "forbearance" is required. Because there doesn't seem to be any perfect churches out there -- good ones, better ones, but all flawed. So that I am not misunderstood, there is no place in "forbearance" for putting up with sin. But it as I sort out my TWI experience, it does seem that there is gold amid the dross. I loved. I know that, and I was loved. That's the stuff that remains when all else is burned.
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Larry N Moore
I can appreciate honesty. I can't say someone is honestly accurate in their reflections on what occurred in the past. The memory isn't always a reliable thing, especially when hurtful events occur.
In any case -- I think anyone who was more interested in what the Word had to say instead of what VP or LCM or whoever said "This is what the Word says" would have been able to see that many things they were saying were not accurate. So many people became spell-bound by leaders that they just couldn't see the trees through the forest.
I remember a time when I was driving with another believer to HQ (for Sunday night service) --- I asked him to go with me because I had sensed he was a bit nervous being with me. So during that long ride the conversation got around to why he was nervous around me. He essentially told me -- "Larry I know you're very knowledgeable about the Word and I'm afraid that I might say something wrong." I answered him: "If you're going to be impressed with me for anything, don't be impressed with me 'cause of the knowledge of the Word I have but rather be impressed with how much of the Word I apply. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies. Have I not been loving towards you?" He answered: "Very much so."
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Abigail
I think that is a fairly accurate statement, Larry. But from my own POV, my own "reasoning", it wasn't that I intentionally worshipped leadership. It wasn't even that I was out to impress them. It was simply that when leadership said something that didn't make sense to me, that I couldn't "see" in the Bible, I assumed (as I had been taught to assume) that the error was in MY UNDERSTANDING no in THEIR TEACHING.
:)
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Larry N Moore
Well Abi, I understand your point. But I think the teaching wasn't that if we couldn't understand what they were saying it must be in our own inability to understand but rather if we couldn't understand what the Bible was saying the error might be in our understanding. That's why it was important to study the Word and make it our "own". Not that we were suppose to study the TWI material and make it our own. What I saw with many people is they studied the latter more than the former to master TWI material rather than mastering the Word itself.
I suppose that's why I was considered such a rebel on so many occasions. :)
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Abigail
Well that might be what they were saying during your tenure with TWI. It may even be what VPW taught in PFAL (its been too long for me to really remember) but it was not what was taught or practiced during my time with TWI. We were taught obey, obey, obey your leadership!!! We were told the MOG certainly had a better understanding of "The Word" than any of us twiggies could ever possibly have - that he had forgotten more than we ever learned, etc. etc.
I did my time as a rebel in that regard too, for a time. Though I rebelled more in terms of what I saw as "practical error" than doctrinal error. As the kids came and the pressures increased within myself, my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole, I eventually stopped rebelling, stopped speaking up. I became desperate to keep my family intact and to protect my children, it all became very crazy, again, in my own mind, in my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole.
I say these things because I think it is very important to remember, as we interact here, that we all spent different time periods within TWI. That our experiences may be vastly different. I guess I think it is an inaccurate "blanket statement" to assume or infer that many of us were simply "spell-bound" by leadership. For many of us it was much more complicated than that.
There were issues regarding obeying spouses and how that was to be properly applied (which was about as clear as mud in TWI). There were issues regarding obeying leadership (which became so twisted and off the word!!!). There was fear of being marked and avoided and having your family ripped apart. Etc., etc.
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Larry N Moore
You're right and your points are good. And if I appeared to be making a "blanket" statement I stand corrected.
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Abigail
Thanks, Larry. You're a good guy. Sometime we just have to talk things out to clarify what is being said so that we aren't misunderstanding each other. :)
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Larry N Moore
:) You should have been around when my brothers and I were talking things out. I sure do love those two!
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Ham
I dunno.. with all the talk about babies, bathwater..
maybe some have let unqualified individuals define exactly what is the baby..
if it's brown and tubular in shape, whether it floats or not, it's not very likely to be a baby..
I don't think the "bathwater" is exactly bathwater, either..
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lindyhopper
Perhaps I'm a little late to the convo, and the whole analogy but...
Ever notice how that baby keeps getting so dirty all the damn time. Perhaps it is something about the nature of the baby and not what to do with all that dirty water.
I think I'll stick with the rubber ducky.
squeek! squeek!
There is a rubber ducky isn't there?
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Larry N Moore
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Ham
well..
I aim to please. Or at least to entertain..
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Ham
I dunno. You may lift the lid.. find the little Sani-Flush man in his little boat.. but I don't think he's exactly trolling for babies..
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sirguessalot
welcome to the a.s.s. club ... a simple spirituality
credo: we are all fundamentally relatively ignorant a$$es who are processing crap (or not) as it comes through the pipes
"holy crap" is one of the most sacred expressions (positive, negative and neutral)
one is instantly qualified simply for being alive
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Ham
Ah. Now it makes sense. It doesn't necessarily start as crap.. but as it slowly evolves.. it turns into crap..
:)
Sometimes.. I think I'm the biggest practitioner as a fellow of a simple spirituality..
actually get arrogant enough sometimes to think I know less than everybody else..
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Biblefan Dave
It seems as though this thread was supposed to put a positive spin on what people did learn in PFAL and other teachings from TWI. I might have put things on a negative tone when I mentioned some of the bad things LCM did. And there is no denying that he did treat people in a very unbiblical manner. But I did learn who Jesus Christ was. I did see healing take place. I did begin to understand the Bible. I did develop a close relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
Certainly it would be nice if someone could wave the magic wand (no, I don't believe in sorcery or witchcraft) and erase all the bad memories and hurtful acts. But that isn't going to happen. It is up to each individual to come to terms with whatever bad feelings or hurt that TWI leaders caused.
Still, many good things did happen to me while I was in TWI. I feel that I left before things got really bad. So I don't have personal knowledge of what LCM and the other BOT did later on.
I feel it is important for me to remember the good things that happened when I was in TWI. There were many good people in TWI who loved God and wanted to serve him to the best of their abilities.
David
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