Sorry Hammer, I'm in a silly mood this evening. Let me give your OP some more thought and see if I can say anything -- although Freud wasn't my favorite. I lean more to behavioral psychology.
Well, I'm sittin' her with my grandson Cletus(That's his name) along with his brother Cleophus(he's the ornery one) and their sister Clara Belle(That's short for Helen).
They all seem to agree that this here idea of a fella(or gal) bein' more than one personality is really "fascinating".
Jeepers!---You would think that three kids on the cuttin' edge of "hipdom" would be able to find a more "up to date" word to use than "fascinating".
here is an initial summation of my take on the "self" ... in a nutshell...
our native ordinary perspectives go kinda like this...
1st person perspective (subjective "I, me, my")
to a 2nd person perspective (inter-subjective "you, we, us")
to a 3rd person perspective (objective "it, this, he, she, they")
to a 4th person perspective (inter-objective its, which includes system theories and such) and so on
note: there are 5th person perspectives and beyond
and not only to each of these perspectives has the potential to develop along a spectrum of greater capacities, in both depth (vertical) and span (horizontal)
but there are multiple inter-related lines in each perspective that have the potential to develop along a spectrum of capacities
in other words...in the 1st person perspective alone, there are at least a dozen lines of development ALL moving semi-independantly through stage after stage after stage
....
to focus on the 1st person perspective for a sec (which does NOT include behavior, btw...behavior is an "it")
its much like a plant with a stem and many roots and many branches and many sub-branches....each of those components has a corresponding voice
and while there are a thousand thousand voices within each of us
there are a much smaller group of primary voices we can identify
as well as some over arching voices of the self that govern them all
the fields of fields of play are vast indeed
...
but to go back to the basic 4 perspectives...what we tend to do is highly favor one of those perspectives over the others...as well as highly DISfavor one
examples...
- if i prefer the 3rd person perspective...i may have a greater knowledge of objective truth
- if i prefer the 2nd person perspective...i may have a greater capacity to relate in community and find the common good
- if i prefer the 1st person perspective...i may have a greater awareness of who i really am and what i mean
and its not hard to see what life might be like for us if we compare the perspectives we favor and those we disfavor
examples....
- if i prefer the 3rd but reject the 2nd...i may know alot, but i have no friends...
- if i prefer the 2nd but reject the 1st....i may have a lot of friends, but i lack my own sense of meaning
- if i prefer the 1st and reject the 2nd...i may have discovered my own meaning, but i do not share it
...
also...
in the fields of adult ego development (which are primarily interested in the 1st person perspective)
we are naturally inclined to develop in a way where stage-growth happens when an object becomes subject
example...
when i realize that my body is an object, and i am experiencing it as a subject
and then realize that my thoughts are objects, and i am experience them as a subject
etc...
and so the fields of adult ego development have not only identified about 7 stages,
but have identified in-between stages as well
as there is a specific kind of challenge at each stage
...
enuff for now...
i guess the epithet of "the ego-trip" is not a bad thing...as we are all on one, it seems
but to go back to the basic 4 perspectives...what we tend to do is highly favor one of those perspectives over the others...as well as highly DISfavor one
sometimes we really, really need this guy (or girl?).. and don't want to exactly admit it..
I think the ego is the thin skin, the thin shell that holds all of this "mess" together..
:)
I don't think it's exactly illusion as some have said.. just another necessary part for this existence..
can be as small as it has to be, as large as is necessary..
At first, I thought maybe, Mr. Hammy, you might be taking some newfangled college class, perhaps on existentialism... then I read SirGuess's post... and I thought, do I need to take a class on PsychoCalculus?
I never could understand regular calculus... but some people have told me that there will only ever be ONE of ME! But now I'm not so sure.
OK, answer me this. If there are other me's, how do I find the one that isn't claustrophobic to go take the MRI my pain doc ordered today, so this me typing this post can stay home and not have to take the test with that other me.
I even tried asking for volunteers to do it for me in chat tonight and had no takers. LOL. *sigh* I HATE being put in that tiny tube for a half hour or more that this one will take. He ordered a full spinal neck to butt, so I know that is gonna take a longer than normal time. I'm praying for an open one, not a closed one. Only good thing is it may pick up a hint of what my Crohn's is doing in there as an added bonus. If not, the barium gulp, idodine push CT Scan comes next on the list, then the small bowel series.
I have to have the test done before I see him next month, so if you can find that other me before then, please send it to the hospital I will be having the test at. That me should know it, we live right across the street from it and get buzzed many times daily by their life flights coming in with critical patients. (Actually it's kinda cool watching the choppers come in low and fast, then land quickly. When every second counts, that is what is needed.) I always say a little prayer when I hear them go over that whomever is in there will be helped by the trauma team and walk out good as new in a few days.
LOL, thanks for helping me find that other me for the MRI. I soooo hate getting put in that little tube. :)
to add something important to what i was writing earlier...
as it pertains to the higher wider end of that 1st person perspective ....
i do believe that when we read "love your neighbor as your self"....its NOT a figure of speech
but a literal expression of that radical sense of Self that has NO small ego boundaries
in other words...when we look into each other's eyes...we see that God is seeing God in a mirror
...and no, not merely "one in purpose" with God...but a felt and experienced sense of literal unity
yep...imagine all those thousand thousand voices within every individual multiplied by every individual...and you are also this
:mellow:
i once watched an old rabbi demonstrate a heartfelt prayer this way
by praying outloud while looking straight into the eyes of another person
as if God was praying to God for a loved one who was ill
....
(edited cuz i didnt know BB was mostly joking about her request: "OK, answer me this. If there are other me's, how do I find the one that isn't ..." which i think is a perfectly wonderful question)
Oh geeze, I am sooo sorry. My post was a joke and not everyone caught that . While there is truth in there, I wrote it with my warped humor added in.
I saw my pain doc today and he ordered an MRI. I hate those tests as I am claustrophobic and a full spinal MRI will take about a half hour from what I hear. The thought of being put inside a very tight tube for that long is very unnerving to me and the whole time I am in that thing I will be going nuts. I am just hoping I get the open kind where if you look as far up and back behind your head as you can (without moving the rest of your body, gotta lay still for the entire test), then you can see out of the tube thru a tiny opening and see a wall of the exam room or something. A closed test you see nothing but the lighted inside of the tube and about 5 inches of space around your body when you are small framed liked me. Big men have a worse time than I do as they have maybe an inch or two most between them and the sides of the tube when they are in there.
I will probably take 5 mg of valium to relax myself (that is allowed) before I go in to have it done and if I'm lucky I may even nod out and sleep thru the test. That is what I hope happens. If not, I just pray I can keep calm enough to make it thru the test so it doesn't have to be repeated.
So I started it in chat earlier tonight by asking for anyone willing to come to Phoenix and take the test for me. Next I read these posts and being in the same crazy frame frame of mind, I got silly with it and was asking where I get that 'other me' to go do the test, so the "me" me that would really feel it can stay home. :) I am dreading having to do this, but it is the best test out there for them to see all they can inside me to see what's going on.
I changed from the bad insurance company medicare offers in this state I got stuck on all last year this month. Now that I'm on the best one that will pay for a lot of tests and things, my docs are all ganging up .... err, I mean ordering a lot of tests for me to do so they can finally get me from the good health stage they got me to now, to even better.
I still have some tests coming up that involve barium that I will also be trying to find volunteers for .. just prior notice to anyone who wants to take pity on me and drink that nasty stuff for me. LOL. I won't explain the rest of those tests or then I know no one would want to do them!
Just the joys of having a few incurable auto immune things going on at once in my ole body and my way of handling it is to laugh it off. Laughing is much more fun than stressing or crying/feeling sorry for myself, so that's what I do. Laugh and make jokes when the docs decide to do some more torture on me that they call medical tests. :)
Again, I'm sorry if you didn't see I was posting it in fun. I thought almost everyone here knew I was sick with the Crohn's, Crohn's related things, IBS, a hip joint that went bad from the drugs I've had to take for the Crohn's so it will have to be replaced in the future, Fibro and migraines off and on. The one good thing about it all is when you have that many chronic pain problems at the same time, every morning when I wake up is like XMas morning. I never know which one will hurt the most, so it's a big surprise, just like the surprise of what Santa left under the tree. This just hurts more, Santa's stuff was fun and was pain free. Hehe. :)
(Edited for everyone who didn't realize I was joking in my original post.)
cuz there are enough variations on the theme that i wouldnt know which link to provide
but the gist of it is about ... get this...9 manifestations of spirit, or God, or whatever
the various patterns and thoughts around the enneagram go way way back
and as a pattern, it pops up many histories and languages and cultures and schools of thought
its like a pattern that has come through all stages of history being refined as it comes along
so its got its ritual versions, cultic versions, contemplative versions, metaphysical versions, post-metaphysical, etc...
ive even heard that guys like disney and the seinfeld creator and charles schultz and jim henson may have actually applied the enneagram in character creation
but one of the schools i have come to appreciate greatly is the enneagram of personality types
...which is more or less a psychology based on choices we made as children
and shows up as our motivation and in our reactions to stress as adults
it is based on how there is an enneagram of voices with each of us
how those 9 types also represent 9 basic points of the individual human self
note: this is a horizontal circle of typology
NOT a vertical scale
the voice of oneness
the voice of twoness
the voice of threeness
the voice of fourness
the voice of fiveness
the voice of sixness
the voice of seveness
the voice of eightness
the voice of nineness
and no one "enters" in the middle of the circle
but we "enter" between two points, typically much closer to one than the other
and our overall personality type is simply the first and always most developed of the 9 lines
which makes it both our curse and our gift (if redeemed)
and to make it even messier
this means that each of the lines develops as all such lines do (along a spectrum...bla bla bla)
but the good news for those freaks who are curious and crazy enough to wanna look into this kinda thing
is that the uneven lines of this interdependent weave of lines actually can give us a detailed cartography of the self
also highly important is that it also allows us to see the very important lines that are in the shadows
and so along with all those other thousands of selves that we each have in us
there are at least these 9 essential coordinating points to the mess
and to make it messier (no...the mess never seems to end...which is simple)...
...if each of us has (at least) these 9 main lines of self awareness
things get real interesting when we take 2nd person perspectives
and look at the enneagram of cultural psychology
every culture is simply made up of all us single enneagram units in it
and so the chemistry and dynamics work accordingly
and it gets interesting if 50% of a culture is a specific personality type
where the rest of the 50% are split up between the rest
suddenly things like wars and bad marriages are a lot more alike than they first appeared
Ah yes the inner child our Id, my Ego molested the little guy.
:)
You know.. that's a good point. Seems some people have holes in them of sorts.. lack whatever "it" is to restrain the wrong kind of passions..
despite upbringing.. society..
maybe they are missing one of themselves.. or can't find it.
I think that may be one reason why a lot of them do this, over and over again. Nothing there to "fix" to begin with..
At least two of my old limb coordinators.. that was the impression I had.. something just wasn't there. One was married, chased skirts openly. The other.. he had whatever part it was that knew how to conceal what he was really doing..
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Ham
Some people think that we all are connected.. that would make the "issues" pretty close to infinite..
:)
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Larry N Moore
Me, myself and I. You do the math. :)
Sorry Hammer, I'm in a silly mood this evening. Let me give your OP some more thought and see if I can say anything -- although Freud wasn't my favorite. I lean more to behavioral psychology.
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Ham
That's OK..
I tend to enjoy theoretical anything.. but I dont' ignore practical, or behavioral "anything" either..
:)
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Ham
what if..
what if a person's (or mine for that matter) search for "truth" led oneself outside of the box..
well.. the contents are certainly of more value than the container.. that is unless someone would beg to differ..
:)
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Ham
This is how many of "you" there are.. at the least.
6,615,362,139
Staggering, isn't it?
But who's counting..
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waysider
Well, I'm sittin' her with my grandson Cletus(That's his name) along with his brother Cleophus(he's the ornery one) and their sister Clara Belle(That's short for Helen).
They all seem to agree that this here idea of a fella(or gal) bein' more than one personality is really "fascinating".
Jeepers!---You would think that three kids on the cuttin' edge of "hipdom" would be able to find a more "up to date" word to use than "fascinating".
I guess that's youngin's fer ya.
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Ham
What the voice of 6 billion individuals sounds like.. white noise..
some people have been able to hear it..
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sirguessalot
hey ham...
here is an initial summation of my take on the "self" ... in a nutshell...
our native ordinary perspectives go kinda like this...
1st person perspective (subjective "I, me, my")
to a 2nd person perspective (inter-subjective "you, we, us")
to a 3rd person perspective (objective "it, this, he, she, they")
to a 4th person perspective (inter-objective its, which includes system theories and such) and so on
note: there are 5th person perspectives and beyond
and not only to each of these perspectives has the potential to develop along a spectrum of greater capacities, in both depth (vertical) and span (horizontal)
but there are multiple inter-related lines in each perspective that have the potential to develop along a spectrum of capacities
in other words...in the 1st person perspective alone, there are at least a dozen lines of development ALL moving semi-independantly through stage after stage after stage
....
to focus on the 1st person perspective for a sec (which does NOT include behavior, btw...behavior is an "it")
its much like a plant with a stem and many roots and many branches and many sub-branches....each of those components has a corresponding voice
and while there are a thousand thousand voices within each of us
there are a much smaller group of primary voices we can identify
as well as some over arching voices of the self that govern them all
the fields of fields of play are vast indeed
...
but to go back to the basic 4 perspectives...what we tend to do is highly favor one of those perspectives over the others...as well as highly DISfavor one
examples...
- if i prefer the 3rd person perspective...i may have a greater knowledge of objective truth
- if i prefer the 2nd person perspective...i may have a greater capacity to relate in community and find the common good
- if i prefer the 1st person perspective...i may have a greater awareness of who i really am and what i mean
and its not hard to see what life might be like for us if we compare the perspectives we favor and those we disfavor
examples....
- if i prefer the 3rd but reject the 2nd...i may know alot, but i have no friends...
- if i prefer the 2nd but reject the 1st....i may have a lot of friends, but i lack my own sense of meaning
- if i prefer the 1st and reject the 2nd...i may have discovered my own meaning, but i do not share it
...
also...
in the fields of adult ego development (which are primarily interested in the 1st person perspective)
we are naturally inclined to develop in a way where stage-growth happens when an object becomes subject
example...
when i realize that my body is an object, and i am experiencing it as a subject
and then realize that my thoughts are objects, and i am experience them as a subject
etc...
and so the fields of adult ego development have not only identified about 7 stages,
but have identified in-between stages as well
as there is a specific kind of challenge at each stage
...
enuff for now...
i guess the epithet of "the ego-trip" is not a bad thing...as we are all on one, it seems
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Ham
sometimes we really, really need this guy (or girl?).. and don't want to exactly admit it..
I think the ego is the thin skin, the thin shell that holds all of this "mess" together..
:)
I don't think it's exactly illusion as some have said.. just another necessary part for this existence..
can be as small as it has to be, as large as is necessary..
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krys
I'm very sorry sirguess - - I misread what you wrote and put my foot in it.....forginess would be nice
krys
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sirguessalot
its ok, Krys...dont sweat it...i didnt get a chance to see it, anyway ... which makes it even easier to forgive, i suppose
...and i can imagine a number of ways how what i wrote can be misread
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sirguessalot
i like how you put that
the bounds of "ego," it seems, can be a rapidly moving boundary
if asked...some might include their clothes
some might include their family and their house and their real estate and their reputation
some may include only their thoughts and feelings
some go as far as to include the cosmos and everything
some include nothing at all
a recent popular cultural trend is trying to "kill the ego"
...yeah, right
but i can no longer fault anyone for trying...cuz its actually a hallmark of a middle stage of ego-development
everyone tries it ... if they make it that far
...
its like how we begin life thinking the world is 100% real
...then, like many believe, and like scripture says, we find that our entire experience of the world is some sort of a vast illusion
...then, we find that the illusion is real...100% really an illusion...and a highly useful and navigable illusion...true lies
as if we were right and wrong all along, every step of the way...but right and wrong for all the right and wrong reasons...which was perfect
...
edited to add a link to cman's "Who are we?" thread
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Rocky
At first, I thought maybe, Mr. Hammy, you might be taking some newfangled college class, perhaps on existentialism... then I read SirGuess's post... and I thought, do I need to take a class on PsychoCalculus?
I never could understand regular calculus... but some people have told me that there will only ever be ONE of ME! But now I'm not so sure.
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BikerBabe
OK, answer me this. If there are other me's, how do I find the one that isn't claustrophobic to go take the MRI my pain doc ordered today, so this me typing this post can stay home and not have to take the test with that other me.
I even tried asking for volunteers to do it for me in chat tonight and had no takers. LOL. *sigh* I HATE being put in that tiny tube for a half hour or more that this one will take. He ordered a full spinal neck to butt, so I know that is gonna take a longer than normal time. I'm praying for an open one, not a closed one. Only good thing is it may pick up a hint of what my Crohn's is doing in there as an added bonus. If not, the barium gulp, idodine push CT Scan comes next on the list, then the small bowel series.
I have to have the test done before I see him next month, so if you can find that other me before then, please send it to the hospital I will be having the test at. That me should know it, we live right across the street from it and get buzzed many times daily by their life flights coming in with critical patients. (Actually it's kinda cool watching the choppers come in low and fast, then land quickly. When every second counts, that is what is needed.) I always say a little prayer when I hear them go over that whomever is in there will be helped by the trauma team and walk out good as new in a few days.
LOL, thanks for helping me find that other me for the MRI. I soooo hate getting put in that little tube. :)
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sirguessalot
to add something important to what i was writing earlier...
as it pertains to the higher wider end of that 1st person perspective ....
i do believe that when we read "love your neighbor as your self"....its NOT a figure of speech
but a literal expression of that radical sense of Self that has NO small ego boundaries
in other words...when we look into each other's eyes...we see that God is seeing God in a mirror
...and no, not merely "one in purpose" with God...but a felt and experienced sense of literal unity
yep...imagine all those thousand thousand voices within every individual multiplied by every individual...and you are also this
:mellow:
i once watched an old rabbi demonstrate a heartfelt prayer this way
by praying outloud while looking straight into the eyes of another person
as if God was praying to God for a loved one who was ill
....
(edited cuz i didnt know BB was mostly joking about her request: "OK, answer me this. If there are other me's, how do I find the one that isn't ..." which i think is a perfectly wonderful question)
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BikerBabe
Oh geeze, I am sooo sorry. My post was a joke and not everyone caught that . While there is truth in there, I wrote it with my warped humor added in.
I saw my pain doc today and he ordered an MRI. I hate those tests as I am claustrophobic and a full spinal MRI will take about a half hour from what I hear. The thought of being put inside a very tight tube for that long is very unnerving to me and the whole time I am in that thing I will be going nuts. I am just hoping I get the open kind where if you look as far up and back behind your head as you can (without moving the rest of your body, gotta lay still for the entire test), then you can see out of the tube thru a tiny opening and see a wall of the exam room or something. A closed test you see nothing but the lighted inside of the tube and about 5 inches of space around your body when you are small framed liked me. Big men have a worse time than I do as they have maybe an inch or two most between them and the sides of the tube when they are in there.
I will probably take 5 mg of valium to relax myself (that is allowed) before I go in to have it done and if I'm lucky I may even nod out and sleep thru the test. That is what I hope happens. If not, I just pray I can keep calm enough to make it thru the test so it doesn't have to be repeated.
So I started it in chat earlier tonight by asking for anyone willing to come to Phoenix and take the test for me. Next I read these posts and being in the same crazy frame frame of mind, I got silly with it and was asking where I get that 'other me' to go do the test, so the "me" me that would really feel it can stay home. :) I am dreading having to do this, but it is the best test out there for them to see all they can inside me to see what's going on.
I changed from the bad insurance company medicare offers in this state I got stuck on all last year this month. Now that I'm on the best one that will pay for a lot of tests and things, my docs are all ganging up .... err, I mean ordering a lot of tests for me to do so they can finally get me from the good health stage they got me to now, to even better.
I still have some tests coming up that involve barium that I will also be trying to find volunteers for .. just prior notice to anyone who wants to take pity on me and drink that nasty stuff for me. LOL. I won't explain the rest of those tests or then I know no one would want to do them!
Just the joys of having a few incurable auto immune things going on at once in my ole body and my way of handling it is to laugh it off. Laughing is much more fun than stressing or crying/feeling sorry for myself, so that's what I do. Laugh and make jokes when the docs decide to do some more torture on me that they call medical tests. :)
Again, I'm sorry if you didn't see I was posting it in fun. I thought almost everyone here knew I was sick with the Crohn's, Crohn's related things, IBS, a hip joint that went bad from the drugs I've had to take for the Crohn's so it will have to be replaced in the future, Fibro and migraines off and on. The one good thing about it all is when you have that many chronic pain problems at the same time, every morning when I wake up is like XMas morning. I never know which one will hurt the most, so it's a big surprise, just like the surprise of what Santa left under the tree. This just hurts more, Santa's stuff was fun and was pain free. Hehe. :)
(Edited for everyone who didn't realize I was joking in my original post.)
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Galen
Ah yes the inner child our Id, my Ego molested the little guy.
:)
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sirguessalot
ha...
heerz something that kinda fits quite well
and makes things even messier for ya, Ham
...the Enneagram
google it if interested...
cuz there are enough variations on the theme that i wouldnt know which link to provide
but the gist of it is about ... get this...9 manifestations of spirit, or God, or whatever
the various patterns and thoughts around the enneagram go way way back
and as a pattern, it pops up many histories and languages and cultures and schools of thought
its like a pattern that has come through all stages of history being refined as it comes along
so its got its ritual versions, cultic versions, contemplative versions, metaphysical versions, post-metaphysical, etc...
ive even heard that guys like disney and the seinfeld creator and charles schultz and jim henson may have actually applied the enneagram in character creation
but one of the schools i have come to appreciate greatly is the enneagram of personality types
...which is more or less a psychology based on choices we made as children
and shows up as our motivation and in our reactions to stress as adults
it is based on how there is an enneagram of voices with each of us
how those 9 types also represent 9 basic points of the individual human self
note: this is a horizontal circle of typology
NOT a vertical scale
the voice of oneness
the voice of twoness
the voice of threeness
the voice of fourness
the voice of fiveness
the voice of sixness
the voice of seveness
the voice of eightness
the voice of nineness
and no one "enters" in the middle of the circle
but we "enter" between two points, typically much closer to one than the other
and our overall personality type is simply the first and always most developed of the 9 lines
which makes it both our curse and our gift (if redeemed)
and to make it even messier
this means that each of the lines develops as all such lines do (along a spectrum...bla bla bla)
but the good news for those freaks who are curious and crazy enough to wanna look into this kinda thing
is that the uneven lines of this interdependent weave of lines actually can give us a detailed cartography of the self
also highly important is that it also allows us to see the very important lines that are in the shadows
and so along with all those other thousands of selves that we each have in us
there are at least these 9 essential coordinating points to the mess
and to make it messier (no...the mess never seems to end...which is simple)...
...if each of us has (at least) these 9 main lines of self awareness
things get real interesting when we take 2nd person perspectives
and look at the enneagram of cultural psychology
every culture is simply made up of all us single enneagram units in it
and so the chemistry and dynamics work accordingly
and it gets interesting if 50% of a culture is a specific personality type
where the rest of the 50% are split up between the rest
suddenly things like wars and bad marriages are a lot more alike than they first appeared
psychological gravity of the masses
when people move like fields of grass in the wind
as fields of interior waves
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cman
Here's a generic version..
well the most generic i could find right off...
http://www.executiveawareness.com/9types.htm
1 self awareness
2 awareness of others
3 doing
4 not in a rut but advancing
5 retreating or reflection
6 watching one's thoughts
7 vision
8 can decide and follow through
9 ready to show and tell
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Ham
You know.. that's a good point. Seems some people have holes in them of sorts.. lack whatever "it" is to restrain the wrong kind of passions..
despite upbringing.. society..
maybe they are missing one of themselves.. or can't find it.
I think that may be one reason why a lot of them do this, over and over again. Nothing there to "fix" to begin with..
At least two of my old limb coordinators.. that was the impression I had.. something just wasn't there. One was married, chased skirts openly. The other.. he had whatever part it was that knew how to conceal what he was really doing..
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