Are saying that God only wants certain folks in and the rest are left out in the cold?
God wants all to be saved AND to come unto the knowledge of the truth. But we know God does not always get His way. Sin, sickness, confusion, and death are all contrary to His will, but they happen anyway. Who do you think makes those things happen in defiance of God's will? When you accurately discern the spirit responsible for those things, then you will have your answer to who locked the doors.
the entire universe is the God-breathed "Word of God" ... which includes every book ever written ... including PFAL, and MAD magazine ... as well as every non-book
that's what so many of saints and sages of old were sayin ... which is the same as sayin nothin by sayin a whole lot
If pfal is not God breathed nothing is?? That is insane and very sad mike. God doesn`t live in those documents....he is alive in US to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Oh yes He DOES!
It's from the WRITTEN Word that we first come to know how to separate the true God from the counterfeit. Without that written Word we have no legitimate starting point.
Mastering the written Word in the senses realm is the first necessary step to rising to a spiritual understanding.
God wants all to be saved AND to come unto the knowledge of the truth. But we know God does not always get His way. Sin, sickness, confusion, and death are all contrary to His will, but they happen anyway. Who do you think makes those things happen in defiance of God's will? When you accurately discern the spirit responsible for those things, then you will have your answer to who locked the doors.
The question was rhetorical to a degree.
As a parent I don't hide from my kids. You're the one that said that keys unlock doors.
"The keys" are supposedly ways to learn and understand the will of God. (according to PFAL IIRC)
Soooo the doors are not sickness, sin and confusion and death.
If my kids are in trouble I help them. I don't make them find keys to doors that lead to the car so they can drive themselves to the doctor.
Or are you saying that God isn't a good a parent as I am?
the entire universe is the God-breathed "Word of God" ... which includes every book ever written ... including PFAL, and MAD magazine ... as well as every non-book
that's what so many of saints and sages of old were sayin ... which is the same as sayin nothin by sayin a whole lot
Here's my favorite sage saying something superbly significant:
Matthew 15
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 ¶And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
The question was rhetorical to a degree.
As a parent I don't hide from my kids. You're the one that said that keys unlock doors.
"The keys" are supposedly ways to learn and understand the will of God. (according to PFAL IIRC)
Soooo the doors are not sickness, sin and confusion and death.
If my kids are in trouble I help them. I don't make them find keys to doors that lead to the car so they can drive themselves to the doctor.
Or are you saying that God isn't a good a parent as I am?
doojable,
Do you remember Dr teaching in the class about Adam and Eve being kicked out of the Garden and a flaming sword (or something like that) keeping them out? THAT looks like a tightly locked door to me. Do you also remember hearing Dr teach that it was a GOOD thing that God did such a thing?
Do you remember Dr teaching in the class about Adam and Eve being kicked out of the Garden and a flaming sword (or something like that) keeping them out? THAT looks like a tightly locked door to me. Do you also remember hearing Dr teach that it was a GOOD thing that God did such a thing?
My GOSH!
There's so much to teach here!
You like to move the goal posts.
Are you suggesting that there are keys to the Garden of Eden?
Actually... I'm done. Your idolotry is getting old.
I now have another thing to add to your "synopsis"!
Add this too: I have an actual rule for faith and practice.
Add this too: I ask and ask for someone to place THEIR actual, physical, see-able, weigh-able, RULE for faith and practice ON THE TABLE and no one can answer me aside from flimsy abstractions.
Oh, wait a minute. Maybe you do have a God-breathed book, or at least one you think is God-breathed and therefore adhere to with al your might.
Tell me, Tom, do you have a physical book that's greater than you? I mean one where you dare not change anything, and one where if it and you differ on a point, then it's YOU that must change, and not the book.
Tell me Tom, what's bigger than you that commands your ultimate respect?
Do you re-write your own book as your mood changes? Or is your book rock solid?
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
turned = turned inward to inner man = seeing through a glass darkly = "riddle in a mirror" = "entering the closet to pray", etc...
interesting how the "keys of hell and death" are mentioned prior to expressing a spectrum of spiritual possiblities
(and then expanding on it over and over again in wider and wider expressions)
makes a large portion of the book of rev somewhat of a spiritual diagnostic chart for of spiritual pain (not starting with evil spirits in others...but starting with MY OWN spiritual pains)
a form of mandala-type painting in writing, but as we read and understand it, we provide the visuals within our own selves
stuff like this makes it ever clearer than ever to me, that the bible (especially the book of rev) is at least a jewish "book of dying,"
and without this context, its hard to make much sense of any of its parables or proverbs
...orientalisms and lexicons are no where near enough
...magic and selfish interpretations ("jesus save me and give me powers")
...fundamentalist and mythic interpretations ("jesus is our special buddy")
...skeptical and rational interpretations ("jesus is a legend and a myth")
...post-modern and pluralistic interpretations ("jesus is only an interpretation")
...various depths and degrees of nondual interpretations ("jesus presents many useful paradoxes...plus all of the above...plus more")
and it seems the writers of the book of rev knew these kind of things
and like Jesus and his teachers and students and friends...they were coming from a NOT-DUAL perspective..."I AM" type statements is classic examples of this kind of old old basic perennial wisdom
I ask and ask for someone to place THEIR actual, physical, see-able, weigh-able, RULE for faith and practice and no one can answer me aside from flimsy abstractions
again..i point to the UNI-verse and "all of em", including all the heavens, hells and earths = NOT a flimsy abstraction, but quite a direct and concrete reference
but it is quite easy to miss..its SO big...SO many books in here
and then you highlight a fragment of a sayin in red = flimsy abstraction, imo
but if i must choose a single book for the sake of the exercise, i would put the book of rev (as independent but related to the rest of the bible) on your table of challenge
but it would take days, perhaps weeks and months to go through it with you...which aint gonna happen, im guessing
It's from the WRITTEN Word that we first come to know how to separate the true God from the counterfeit. Without that written Word we have no legitimate starting point.
Mastering the written Word in the senses realm is the first necessary step to rising to a spiritual understanding.
God's Word is as much God as God is God.
Sure we do. Jesus said the two great commandments were to *love God and love your neighbor*. That is an excellent place to start :)
The way we are told to seperate the genuine from the counterfeit was obvious as well, Jesus said by our fruits that we would know one another.
Here`s a hint ....mastering the written word was NOT given as one of the fruit that identified the genuine believer :)
not that anyone said this here recently...but its how its often interpreted to mean...and Rascal just got me thinking about it...
but i believe "love your neighbor as self" is more than the golden rule
but a call to realize the nondual nature of one's own identity
meaning..your neighbor IS your very self staring back at you...
and the little "separate self" we think we are...is the primary illusionary duality that we are called to overcome
...we are the waves ...and we are the ocean
a natural necessary amnesia and forgetting we are all born with ... the spiritual journey of life is a remembering of who we already always are
yet, we most often use the bible to reinforce our separateness and materialism and reduction of everything spiritual to a mere IT (ignoring I and WE aspects of Spirit)
to "BE ONE" with God and Jesus is a similar statement of the radical identity shifting, ego dropping spirituality of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Buddha and the rest
which is why the saints and sages make crazy statements like "I, my self, am also God also experiencing my self"
such radical paradox does not have to stump us...but used as the polarity that gives us traction and wholeness ... enmity and separation can be shed like a snakeskin
yet, for the ultimate pinnacle such a state seems to be (and is often claimed to be)...such a "state" is also considered the mere entry of the "kingdom of heaven"... a taste...a touch ... to be practiced
notice that its not until AFTER the "7th angel" of the book of rev is described that we get a view of the "throneroom"
and not until AFTER many other layers of 7s that we see the kingdom "coming"
it is at the "7th level of being" that we experience...period...
which is why silence is described...its the place of "shhhhh" ... just "Witness" ... and even further "Witness the Witness"
its not until AFTER we reach this clearing (wide open unlocked door) that we can learn the spectrum of notes that we can start playing full music
its not until AFTER we learn the color wheel that we can paint a full colored painting
It was the books effect on me that caused me to accept and see that Dr was correct in claiming that some of his writings were God-breathed. Of course, most posters here howled at the idea FOR YEARS HERE at the idea that Dr made such a claim... until I posted 22 of them.
Here's another example of Mike creatively reinterpreting what happened.
See, first of all, vpw contrasted his own writings, as well as the writings of
Martin Luther and others- with the Scriptures, saying that the Scriptures
were "God-Breathed", but with anyone else's works- like his own, or Martin
Luther's writings, you have no such guarantee, it is hit-or-miss with truth or error.
Here's what vpw said, pg 83 of the Orange Book:
"The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures...." It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, "Search the scriptures..." because all scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed."
For the benefit of those in the cheap seats, here's how Goey explained that passage,
June 1, 2003, back when Mike was claiming that passage meant vpw was saying
that part of his own books would NECESSARILY be "God-breathed."....
"I think Wierwille put "necessarily" in there because he believed or wanted others to believe that it was "possible" for him to write from inspiration. - just as possible for him as it was for the others he mentioned, like Luther, Luther, Wesley etc. . I have no problem with that. It is certainly possible that God could inspire any one of us to write.
In the last sentence, Wierwille uses a semicolon after, "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed". Then he lists these other folks but omits the word 'necessarily'. This according to Bullinger is is the figure of speech - eplipsis or omission. We could add the word "necessarily" before "what Calvin said" - and not change the sense of the sentence. It would then read:
Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not [necessarily]what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed.
In fact, you could rearange the names in any order and not change the sense of what Wierwille was saying here.
After he list these men the then says 'but'.
BUT! BUT! BUT! ... IN CONTRAST to what all these men have written - It is the Scriptures that are God-breathed and it is the Scriptures that are to be searched (and mastered.)
The thrust and point of Wirewille's message here is that the works of men - including Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc - and Wierwille himself; even though they 'could' be God-breathed (inspired) - are not scripture. They are not in the Bible and are not a part of the canon of scripture. And rather than rely on the works of men (Wierwille includes himself), we are to search the Bible (scriptures) - "so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology."
Mike, it seems that because of your seeking for "hidden messages" and because of your presumptions necessary to support your theories, that you have missed the actual message that Wierwille was really attempting to make. You got it exactly reversed from what Wierwille was trying to teach here in PFAL.
==========
Similarly,
there were any number of places where vpw claimed what he was saying was in
agreement with the Bible, and would say something like
"Don't blame me-I didn't write the book",
and Mike would reinterpret that as
"Here vpw's saying he didn't write the Orange Book, and it was from God."
NOW,
Mike's remembering the incidents as:
A) he said definitive, unambiguous quotes existed where vpw said God wrote the Orange Book
and the others
B) people here laughed long and loud about it
C) Mike produced definitive, unambiguous quotes where vpw said God wrote the Orange Book and
the others.
For the record, that was zero for zero.
However, Mike's creative reinterpretation process doesn't pause for little things like
"What actually happened" when it's manufacturing victories for Mike,
it will take whatever it gets-
and that usually means it needs to completely rewrite history or whatever Mike's reading.
Happens a lot, if the GSC posts are any indication.
He's also claimed that he rode in here, and befuddled us, outsmarting us all and
baffling us, a few months after he was (in effect) spanked with a paddle on all his claims.
So, this is old news, just variations on the same old hallucinations.
No, I never thought it would be MY claim would have the effect on the book of making it God-breathed. I lined up with the book being God-breathed, and not the other way around. The book did not lined up with me.
Mike means he says the PFAL BOOK, not any BIBLE, is "God-Breathed", for those who
missed it since he's being unclear, probably intentionally.
He's claiming it was, and he later agreed it was.
The rest of you can make up your own mind on the subject.
***
And boy, oh boy, AM I tired of the pony story! It reminds me of Job's miserable comforters who would pronounce accurate ideas, but ideas that had no application to Job's situation. He rejected their ideas as non-applicable just as I reject the phony pony.
And we reject your phony doctrines, Mike, as always. Old news.
Here's a recap on this "Keys" thing Mike tried to pass off....
===========
cinderpelt,
6:10am, 11/11/07:
"You can have a million keys -- it don't mean spit. If Jesus Christ isn't involved, the eyes of your understanding haven't been enlightened and you're grasping at straws -- it's that simple. "
Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Seems it always comes back to KNOWING HIM. Not "keys", not formulae, not having the "inside scoop" on super-spiritual info about someone when one has neither the care (the Shepherd's heart), nor the guts to help.
~Cinder
rascal,
9:40a, 11/11/07:
Amen Cinder!
That is what is so scary about twi involvement...the tendency even years after leaving to substitute knowledge, keys, principles, study for a relationship with him
I think that is why we have such a tough time fitting in anywhere after we leave.
Mike,
12:28pm, 11/11/07:
Keys unlock doors.
Mr Hammeroni,
12:57pm, 11/11/07:
I think they really don't. Most "doors" at least that I would want to walk through, sit unlocked to begin with. Keys and locks are used for the express purpose of restricting access. I really don't think that the God who created the universe, who has more than he ever would ever need or want, and supposedly desperately would want us to have it, isn't in the business of handing out a few keys to the shop to someone, to be sold at a rather hefty profit.
It sounds to me like some kind of foreign lotto scheme. "Cash the check, send me most of the money, and I'll release a fortune to your account".
waysider,
1:40pm, 11/11/07:
And the inverse is--------
drum roll, please
-----------------Keys lock doors.
How's that for mathmatical accuracy?
doojable,
9pm, 11/11/07:
If the doors are locked -then WHO locked them?
Yu only need keys to unlock a door if the person in charge of that door wants to keep certain folks out. If the hand you the keys you can get in.
Are saying that God only wants certain folks in and the rest are left out in the cold?
Mike,
11:46pm. 11/11/07:
God wants all to be saved AND to come unto the knowledge of the truth. But we know God does not always get His way. Sin, sickness, confusion, and death are all contrary to His will, but they happen anyway. Who do you think makes those things happen in defiance of God's will? When you accurately discern the spirit responsible for those things, then you will have your answer to who locked the doors.
doojable,
11:55pm, 11/11/07:
The question was rhetorical to a degree.
As a parent I don't hide from my kids. You're the one that said that keys unlock doors.
"The keys" are supposedly ways to learn and understand the will of God. (according to PFAL IIRC)
Soooo the doors are not sickness, sin and confusion and death.
If my kids are in trouble I help them. I don't make them find keys to doors that lead to the car so they can drive themselves to the doctor.
Or are you saying that God isn't a good a parent as I am?
Mike,
11:59pm, 11/11/07:
doojable,
Do you remember Dr teaching in the class about Adam and Eve being kicked out of the Garden and a flaming sword (or something like that) keeping them out? THAT looks like a tightly locked door to me. Do you also remember hearing Dr teach that it was a GOOD thing that God did such a thing?
doojable,
12:05am, 11/12/07:
You like to move the goal posts.
Are you suggesting that there are keys to the Garden of Eden?
Actually... I'm done. Your idolotry is getting old.
one can feel free to compare and contrast what everyone else said
(like cinderpelt not confusing a tool with a relationship)
with Mike trying to defend his "keys are crucial" doctrine,
even to the point of changing the subject and jumping from the subject
to the Garden of Eden, hoping nobody noticed the subject changed.
Are you suggesting that there are keys to the Garden of Eden?
Joni Mitchell and the Jefferson Airplane did sing "we got to get back to the Garden."
What characterized the Garden was God's voice being clear and strong, and the 5-senses were unable to dominate.
After the doors were locked there was no direct spiritual link and the 5-senses dominated, with only a still small voice able to get through to those few who got spirit upon.
Yes we got to get back to that Garden, or something even better. We got to rise up to meet the lord in the air.
*******
E GADS!
Look at all those posts since I went away for a nap! And LONG ones too!
Hey, folks, if I missed something important in posts #134 through #141 please bring my attention to it. I'll do my best to catch up.
doojabble, are you getting desperate OR WHAT? Sheeeeesh!
***
WordWolf,
You pasted in Goey’s attempt to shut down my presentations of PFAL page 83 and made it look like I had given up.
You wrote: “For the benefit of those in the cheap seats, here’s how Goey explained that passage, June 1, 2003, back when Mike was claiming that passage meant vpw was saying that part of his own books would NECESSARILY be ‘God-breathed.’....”
Hey! I never stopped claiming this!
Maybe you stopped reading my continual stream of posts on this page 83 in the Orange book. Just to bring you up to speed on this issue below is one of my posts dated TWO YEARS after Goey’s just cited post.
The following appears in a thread that contains my presentation of 22 “Thus Saith the Lord” statements of Dr’s. Page 83 is one of the strongest of his “Thus saith” statements. It’s so funny that you and many others can’t seem to get the logic of that one sentence. Little things like the possible figurative use of the word “scripture” seem to throw you. You seem to ignore the use of the words “necessarily” and “not all.”
Someday some language expert is going to show you I am right here. Such an expert need not BELIEVE Dr’s claim to see this is the case. What are you going to do when this is finally proved to you?
Anyway, here is my old post from two years after Goey’s cited post. It’s in the thread titled “The Official, the Ultimate, the Amazing PFAL Thread.” It’s not a paste but a slight re-work. It can be found here: click here
Posted August 16, 2005 1:48
Let’s go back to “Thus saith” #3, PFAL page 83, for a moment.
Often I posted on this page, and often others tried to deny it outright. After many rounds, I evolved a concise way of putting it all.
Here is what is actually written on that page 83 of PFAL:
“The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let’s see this from John 5:39. “Search the scriptures ....” It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, “Search the scriptures ....” because all Scripture is God-breathed.Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.”
The key sentence is the last one. It’s taken nearly word-for-word exactly from the ‘67 film class, so everyone was exposed to this sentence a maximum number of times. Here’s how we heard it in the film class:
“‘Search the scriptures.’ It doesn’t say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of my denomination, no. It’s says, ‘search the scriptures!’ Why search the scriptures? Because all scripture is God-breathed. But not all that V.P. Wierwille would write would of necessity be God-breathed, nor what Shakespeare said nor Kant nor Plato not Aristotle or Freud. But the scriptures; they are God-breathed. All scripture, all of it.”
How many times were we exposed to this sentence? Many. Yet it eludes us to this day.
Why?
What many posters have tried to assert was that this key sentence in Dr’s teaching to us was equivalent to the following sentence of their own composition:
“Not what Wierwille writes will be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.”
But that’s not at all the choice of words Dr used. What Dr said and wrote says the exact opposite of the above sentence. It’s the addition of just a few words, “not all” and “necessarily” that make the big difference.
The ACTUAL sentence reads (with my bold fonts):
“Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.”
The phrase “not all” implies “some.” If I eat NOT ALL of a pizza pie, then that means there’s SOME left for you.
This means Dr’s statement on PFAL page 83 asserts that ... SOME of what Wierwille writes will OF NECESSITY be God-breathed.
I have verified my grammar and logic on this one sentence with two of Dr’s editors, one of whom worked on the PFAL book with him and remembered well that one key sentence. The other was a long time editor of the magazine.
Some time after posting this I asked these two editors if I could cite their agreement with me. They said yes. They are my long time best friends J. Fred Wilson and David Craley.
Goey failed to note that Dr switched from “write” to “said” so his attempt to fit this into a figure of speech was a cram job.
At the end of his life Dr came right out and said we must master PFAL collaterals. They ARE the “scriptures” we are to search. We don’t really HAVE the ancient scriptures to search, just men’s poor copies and translations thereof.
Before the PFAL collaterals were finished being written, and when Dr spoke this sentence in the film class in 1968, all we had were the hand-me-down ancient scriptures and human versions to search, and searching them was right and proper.
Before the PFAL collaterals were finished being written, and when he published the PFAL book with it’s page 83 in 1971, we STILL didn’t have nearly all the “book and magazine form” presentation of God’s Word, and searching our KJVs was right and proper.
But in 1975, as the publication of Volume IV was nearing, he slowly and quietly started his TEN YEAR campaign of urging, first only top leadership, to search the PFAL literature, and MASTER IT!
As the years progressed and more was printed (or scripted) Dr stepped up his urging to master PFAL. In 1979 he STRONGLY urged only the AC students and grads to master RHST with this now famous quote in segment 5 of that Advanced Class:
“I have set for our people, and it’s set in the book on ‘Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,’ and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven’t, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it’s utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I’ve discovered as I’ve worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.”
Sure looks like he wanted us to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES, the scriptures he and God were publishing.
By 1984 he was urging new students to master (which implies “search”) some more of the collateral books.
Then in 1985, in his second to the last teaching “The Hope” he urged us all to master ADAN. Two weeks later, in his soon to be lost and trodden underfoot LAST teaching, he TWICE urges us all to master and search the written PFAL SCRIPTURES.
Not all the Wierwille wrote was God-breathed, but what he and God put into the PFAL writings is worthy of mastery because it was of GOD.
Actually, in going over all the above I discovered that I linked to a pre-synopsis of my "Thus Saith" presentations including PFAL page 83. It was something WhatTheHey had "leaked to the press." In later pages I re-wrote a little what he had posted of mine and all that can be found here by clicking here and scrolling down to post #312.
I don't know how many times posters have told me here that Dr never claimed that PFAL was God-breathed, so that's why I posted those 22 examples. I actually have 90 examples, but time is too short to do them all. Maybe I'll do more later.
So many posters WRONGLY insisted that Dr never made such claims, yet posted in that thread link above are 22 of them. It makes one think "How many OTHER things did those posters miss?" Come back to written PFAL and SEE!
It isn`t that we missed it mike, but rather you attempting to see something that was never really there in the first place.
You are claiming that a man of the flesh (theres that pesky galatians again) declared his own words to be God`s word ...something that vpw himself was never crazy enough to do in actual life.
I think the man was completely reprehensible, but even I won`t lay this one at his feet.
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed"
My paraphrase of PFAL page 83, taking the context into account:
"What men say is relatively worthless. What God says is crucial. Even a man like Wierwille, who was commissioned to write FOR GOD, has relatively worthless words when they are merely his own."
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Mike
God wants all to be saved AND to come unto the knowledge of the truth. But we know God does not always get His way. Sin, sickness, confusion, and death are all contrary to His will, but they happen anyway. Who do you think makes those things happen in defiance of God's will? When you accurately discern the spirit responsible for those things, then you will have your answer to who locked the doors.
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sirguessalot
the entire universe is the God-breathed "Word of God" ... which includes every book ever written ... including PFAL, and MAD magazine ... as well as every non-book
that's what so many of saints and sages of old were sayin ... which is the same as sayin nothin by sayin a whole lot
"all of it"
"all of it"
"yep...all of it"
...just sayin
:mellow:
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Mike
*******
Oh yes He DOES!
It's from the WRITTEN Word that we first come to know how to separate the true God from the counterfeit. Without that written Word we have no legitimate starting point.
Mastering the written Word in the senses realm is the first necessary step to rising to a spiritual understanding.
God's Word is as much God as God is God.
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doojable
The question was rhetorical to a degree.
As a parent I don't hide from my kids. You're the one that said that keys unlock doors.
"The keys" are supposedly ways to learn and understand the will of God. (according to PFAL IIRC)
Soooo the doors are not sickness, sin and confusion and death.
If my kids are in trouble I help them. I don't make them find keys to doors that lead to the car so they can drive themselves to the doctor.
Or are you saying that God isn't a good a parent as I am?
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Mike
Here's my favorite sage saying something superbly significant:
Matthew 15
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 ¶And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
doojable,
Do you remember Dr teaching in the class about Adam and Eve being kicked out of the Garden and a flaming sword (or something like that) keeping them out? THAT looks like a tightly locked door to me. Do you also remember hearing Dr teach that it was a GOOD thing that God did such a thing?
My GOSH!
There's so much to teach here!
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doojable
You like to move the goal posts.
Are you suggesting that there are keys to the Garden of Eden?
Actually... I'm done. Your idolotry is getting old.
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Tom Strange
Why thank you Mike!!!
I now have another thing to add to your "synopsis"!
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Mike
Add this too: I have an actual rule for faith and practice.
Add this too: I ask and ask for someone to place THEIR actual, physical, see-able, weigh-able, RULE for faith and practice ON THE TABLE and no one can answer me aside from flimsy abstractions.
Oh, wait a minute. Maybe you do have a God-breathed book, or at least one you think is God-breathed and therefore adhere to with al your might.
Tell me, Tom, do you have a physical book that's greater than you? I mean one where you dare not change anything, and one where if it and you differ on a point, then it's YOU that must change, and not the book.
Tell me Tom, what's bigger than you that commands your ultimate respect?
Do you re-write your own book as your mood changes? Or is your book rock solid?
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sirguessalot
speaking of keys and discerning of spirits...
turned = turned inward to inner man = seeing through a glass darkly = "riddle in a mirror" = "entering the closet to pray", etc...
angels = messengers = voices = expressions
churches = gatherings (of energy) = turning wheels = chakras = sephirot, etc...
interesting how the "keys of hell and death" are mentioned prior to expressing a spectrum of spiritual possiblities
(and then expanding on it over and over again in wider and wider expressions)
makes a large portion of the book of rev somewhat of a spiritual diagnostic chart for of spiritual pain (not starting with evil spirits in others...but starting with MY OWN spiritual pains)
a form of mandala-type painting in writing, but as we read and understand it, we provide the visuals within our own selves
stuff like this makes it ever clearer than ever to me, that the bible (especially the book of rev) is at least a jewish "book of dying,"
and without this context, its hard to make much sense of any of its parables or proverbs
...orientalisms and lexicons are no where near enough
and too...like ive been sayin elsewhere...
we interpret things from various levels
...magic and selfish interpretations ("jesus save me and give me powers")
...fundamentalist and mythic interpretations ("jesus is our special buddy")
...skeptical and rational interpretations ("jesus is a legend and a myth")
...post-modern and pluralistic interpretations ("jesus is only an interpretation")
...various depths and degrees of nondual interpretations ("jesus presents many useful paradoxes...plus all of the above...plus more")
and it seems the writers of the book of rev knew these kind of things
and like Jesus and his teachers and students and friends...they were coming from a NOT-DUAL perspective..."I AM" type statements is classic examples of this kind of old old basic perennial wisdom
again..i point to the UNI-verse and "all of em", including all the heavens, hells and earths = NOT a flimsy abstraction, but quite a direct and concrete reference
but it is quite easy to miss..its SO big...SO many books in here
and then you highlight a fragment of a sayin in red = flimsy abstraction, imo
but if i must choose a single book for the sake of the exercise, i would put the book of rev (as independent but related to the rest of the bible) on your table of challenge
but it would take days, perhaps weeks and months to go through it with you...which aint gonna happen, im guessing
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rascal
Sure we do. Jesus said the two great commandments were to *love God and love your neighbor*. That is an excellent place to start :)
The way we are told to seperate the genuine from the counterfeit was obvious as well, Jesus said by our fruits that we would know one another.
Here`s a hint ....mastering the written word was NOT given as one of the fruit that identified the genuine believer :)
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sirguessalot
to add...
not that anyone said this here recently...but its how its often interpreted to mean...and Rascal just got me thinking about it...
but i believe "love your neighbor as self" is more than the golden rule
but a call to realize the nondual nature of one's own identity
meaning..your neighbor IS your very self staring back at you...
and the little "separate self" we think we are...is the primary illusionary duality that we are called to overcome
...we are the waves ...and we are the ocean
a natural necessary amnesia and forgetting we are all born with ... the spiritual journey of life is a remembering of who we already always are
yet, we most often use the bible to reinforce our separateness and materialism and reduction of everything spiritual to a mere IT (ignoring I and WE aspects of Spirit)
to "BE ONE" with God and Jesus is a similar statement of the radical identity shifting, ego dropping spirituality of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Buddha and the rest
which is why the saints and sages make crazy statements like "I, my self, am also God also experiencing my self"
such radical paradox does not have to stump us...but used as the polarity that gives us traction and wholeness ... enmity and separation can be shed like a snakeskin
yet, for the ultimate pinnacle such a state seems to be (and is often claimed to be)...such a "state" is also considered the mere entry of the "kingdom of heaven"... a taste...a touch ... to be practiced
notice that its not until AFTER the "7th angel" of the book of rev is described that we get a view of the "throneroom"
and not until AFTER many other layers of 7s that we see the kingdom "coming"
it is at the "7th level of being" that we experience...period...
which is why silence is described...its the place of "shhhhh" ... just "Witness" ... and even further "Witness the Witness"
its not until AFTER we reach this clearing (wide open unlocked door) that we can learn the spectrum of notes that we can start playing full music
its not until AFTER we learn the color wheel that we can paint a full colored painting
"heresy" is choosing a part over the whole
...
oops...there i go farting in church again
sowwy
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WordWolf
Here's another example of Mike creatively reinterpreting what happened.
See, first of all, vpw contrasted his own writings, as well as the writings of
Martin Luther and others- with the Scriptures, saying that the Scriptures
were "God-Breathed", but with anyone else's works- like his own, or Martin
Luther's writings, you have no such guarantee, it is hit-or-miss with truth or error.
Here's what vpw said, pg 83 of the Orange Book:
"The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures...." It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, "Search the scriptures..." because all scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed."
For the benefit of those in the cheap seats, here's how Goey explained that passage,
June 1, 2003, back when Mike was claiming that passage meant vpw was saying
that part of his own books would NECESSARILY be "God-breathed."....
==========
Similarly,
there were any number of places where vpw claimed what he was saying was in
agreement with the Bible, and would say something like
"Don't blame me-I didn't write the book",
and Mike would reinterpret that as
"Here vpw's saying he didn't write the Orange Book, and it was from God."
NOW,
Mike's remembering the incidents as:
A) he said definitive, unambiguous quotes existed where vpw said God wrote the Orange Book
and the others
B) people here laughed long and loud about it
C) Mike produced definitive, unambiguous quotes where vpw said God wrote the Orange Book and
the others.
For the record, that was zero for zero.
However, Mike's creative reinterpretation process doesn't pause for little things like
"What actually happened" when it's manufacturing victories for Mike,
it will take whatever it gets-
and that usually means it needs to completely rewrite history or whatever Mike's reading.
Happens a lot, if the GSC posts are any indication.
He's also claimed that he rode in here, and befuddled us, outsmarting us all and
baffling us, a few months after he was (in effect) spanked with a paddle on all his claims.
So, this is old news, just variations on the same old hallucinations.
Mike means he says the PFAL BOOK, not any BIBLE, is "God-Breathed", for those whomissed it since he's being unclear, probably intentionally.
He's claiming it was, and he later agreed it was.
The rest of you can make up your own mind on the subject.
***
And we reject your phony doctrines, Mike, as always. Old news.
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WordWolf
Looks great on a bumper sticker, and vpw said it, but it's not true.
Anyone's "word" is their communication to another-
but it is not THEMSELF, nor their PERSON.
Even vpw later made this same point, when discussing "the Giver and the Gift."
He held up one of "his" books, and said that if he gave someone this book he
wrote, would they get the book-the gift- or would they get the giver-himself?
"Of course you wouldn't get the giver-how lucky could you get?"
So, vpw's word is not vpw, just as God's Word isn't God HIMSELF.
This is not a problem for nearly all Christians, but those with a bibliolatry problem
(ex-twi and their students, mostly), this may seem to be a deep manner.
Might as well say "WordWolf's posts are as much WordWolf as WordWolf is WordWolf."
It's just as much an error
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WordWolf
Here's a recap on this "Keys" thing Mike tried to pass off....
===========
cinderpelt,
6:10am, 11/11/07:
rascal,9:40a, 11/11/07:
Mike,
12:28pm, 11/11/07:
Mr Hammeroni,12:57pm, 11/11/07:
waysider,
1:40pm, 11/11/07:
doojable,9pm, 11/11/07:
Mike,
11:46pm. 11/11/07:
doojable,11:55pm, 11/11/07:
Mike,
11:59pm, 11/11/07:
doojable,12:05am, 11/12/07:
one can feel free to compare and contrast what everyone else said
(like cinderpelt not confusing a tool with a relationship)
with Mike trying to defend his "keys are crucial" doctrine,
even to the point of changing the subject and jumping from the subject
to the Garden of Eden, hoping nobody noticed the subject changed.
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cman
Well there you go Mike, your challenge has been accepted by Sirguessalot.
Unless you just skip posts your confused mind can't seem to grasp.
You can count to 7 can't you?
1 book and then all your books and tapes and magazines.
So you going to just pretend this didn't happen or take the challenge.
If you don't, then Sirg wins by default.
You think you can make these claims then hide behind rhetoric, you are mistaken.
O and be sure to take the butt plugs out of your ears to hear.
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Mike
Joni Mitchell and the Jefferson Airplane did sing "we got to get back to the Garden."
What characterized the Garden was God's voice being clear and strong, and the 5-senses were unable to dominate.
After the doors were locked there was no direct spiritual link and the 5-senses dominated, with only a still small voice able to get through to those few who got spirit upon.
Yes we got to get back to that Garden, or something even better. We got to rise up to meet the lord in the air.
*******
E GADS!
Look at all those posts since I went away for a nap! And LONG ones too!
Hey, folks, if I missed something important in posts #134 through #141 please bring my attention to it. I'll do my best to catch up.
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cman
chicken droppings..........
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Mike
.........then why do you read it?
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cman
you are the chicken droppings Mike
and easily read
why are you so afraid?
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doojable
I have to make this last observation....
Sage? Sage!
So now Jesus Christ is a sage???!!! Not Saviour? Not Lord?
So the DrunkenDrambuieKing is really lord of all?
The curtain just got pulled back a bit further.
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Mike
doojabble, are you getting desperate OR WHAT? Sheeeeesh!
***
WordWolf,
You pasted in Goey’s attempt to shut down my presentations of PFAL page 83 and made it look like I had given up.
You wrote: “For the benefit of those in the cheap seats, here’s how Goey explained that passage, June 1, 2003, back when Mike was claiming that passage meant vpw was saying that part of his own books would NECESSARILY be ‘God-breathed.’....”
Hey! I never stopped claiming this!
Maybe you stopped reading my continual stream of posts on this page 83 in the Orange book. Just to bring you up to speed on this issue below is one of my posts dated TWO YEARS after Goey’s just cited post.
The following appears in a thread that contains my presentation of 22 “Thus Saith the Lord” statements of Dr’s. Page 83 is one of the strongest of his “Thus saith” statements. It’s so funny that you and many others can’t seem to get the logic of that one sentence. Little things like the possible figurative use of the word “scripture” seem to throw you. You seem to ignore the use of the words “necessarily” and “not all.”
Someday some language expert is going to show you I am right here. Such an expert need not BELIEVE Dr’s claim to see this is the case. What are you going to do when this is finally proved to you?
Anyway, here is my old post from two years after Goey’s cited post. It’s in the thread titled “The Official, the Ultimate, the Amazing PFAL Thread.” It’s not a paste but a slight re-work. It can be found here: click here
Some time after posting this I asked these two editors if I could cite their agreement with me. They said yes. They are my long time best friends J. Fred Wilson and David Craley.
Goey failed to note that Dr switched from “write” to “said” so his attempt to fit this into a figure of speech was a cram job.
At the end of his life Dr came right out and said we must master PFAL collaterals. They ARE the “scriptures” we are to search. We don’t really HAVE the ancient scriptures to search, just men’s poor copies and translations thereof.
Before the PFAL collaterals were finished being written, and when Dr spoke this sentence in the film class in 1968, all we had were the hand-me-down ancient scriptures and human versions to search, and searching them was right and proper.
Before the PFAL collaterals were finished being written, and when he published the PFAL book with it’s page 83 in 1971, we STILL didn’t have nearly all the “book and magazine form” presentation of God’s Word, and searching our KJVs was right and proper.
But in 1975, as the publication of Volume IV was nearing, he slowly and quietly started his TEN YEAR campaign of urging, first only top leadership, to search the PFAL literature, and MASTER IT!
As the years progressed and more was printed (or scripted) Dr stepped up his urging to master PFAL. In 1979 he STRONGLY urged only the AC students and grads to master RHST with this now famous quote in segment 5 of that Advanced Class:
“I have set for our people, and it’s set in the book on ‘Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,’ and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven’t, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it’s utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I’ve discovered as I’ve worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.”
Sure looks like he wanted us to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES, the scriptures he and God were publishing.
By 1984 he was urging new students to master (which implies “search”) some more of the collateral books.
Then in 1985, in his second to the last teaching “The Hope” he urged us all to master ADAN. Two weeks later, in his soon to be lost and trodden underfoot LAST teaching, he TWICE urges us all to master and search the written PFAL SCRIPTURES.
Not all the Wierwille wrote was God-breathed, but what he and God put into the PFAL writings is worthy of mastery because it was of GOD.
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Mike
*******
Actually, in going over all the above I discovered that I linked to a pre-synopsis of my "Thus Saith" presentations including PFAL page 83. It was something WhatTheHey had "leaked to the press." In later pages I re-wrote a little what he had posted of mine and all that can be found here by clicking here and scrolling down to post #312.
I don't know how many times posters have told me here that Dr never claimed that PFAL was God-breathed, so that's why I posted those 22 examples. I actually have 90 examples, but time is too short to do them all. Maybe I'll do more later.
So many posters WRONGLY insisted that Dr never made such claims, yet posted in that thread link above are 22 of them. It makes one think "How many OTHER things did those posters miss?" Come back to written PFAL and SEE!
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rascal
It isn`t that we missed it mike, but rather you attempting to see something that was never really there in the first place.
You are claiming that a man of the flesh (theres that pesky galatians again) declared his own words to be God`s word ...something that vpw himself was never crazy enough to do in actual life.
I think the man was completely reprehensible, but even I won`t lay this one at his feet.
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Mike
Page 83 of PFAL reads:
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed"
My paraphrase of PFAL page 83, taking the context into account:
"What men say is relatively worthless. What God says is crucial. Even a man like Wierwille, who was commissioned to write FOR GOD, has relatively worthless words when they are merely his own."
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