I believe that was discerning of spirits. No time to explore, examine or categorize. Just had to move it on down the line.
WG
I think you are right on this WG. Faith doesn't require a class or a syllabus. It requires trust and action. It was simple you were in a situation, God told you something wasn't quite right and that this guy intended harm towards you, you trusted His word and then you acted. Simple. No big formula. Just faith in the promise of God.
Discerning of Spirits seems fairly simple to me. The ability to tell one from the other of more than one kind of spirit. Devil spirits may have differnent functions, they may not...dont know...dont see a reason to care. Devil spirits in my opinion lump into one thing, bad. Good spirits, like holy spirit or Angels can be discerned as well. Like when you are in a position where things are dicey and instead of hearing "this guy means you harm" you hear "this guy's ok, trust him". I've had it go both ways and when I listen things turn out just fine.
The ability of course comes from God through the holy spirit that we get when we are born again. The AC made it all sound so very complicated and one sided...the focus was all on the bad side. It just seemed wrong to me.
Mike...yer right. I do often suggest deeper than tradition kinds of inquiry
but i also suggest exploring the depth of the world's great traditions
cuz relatively few in our culture really ever have
yet go on making inflated faith claims anyway
and dismissing things never even looked into
while claiming to understand them all
...and i hafta include you in this
and i must say...that those fields and theories you mention are merely objective and inter-objective lines of inquiry
...not subjective or inter-subjective modes, where Spirit has traditionally been found by the saints and sages of old
but i'll stop there about that..cuz the "spiritual wilderness" is increasingly complicated, if nothing else
and that is a natural enough of a reason for many to stop and oversimplify
especially in our age of very challenging hyper-evolving complications and unprecedented access to global historical information
and given the influence that PFAL/TWI/VPW/LCM doctrines have had on all of us, as well as other factors (such as the post-modern pluralism i mention here and there)
i can assume that i am mostly being considered as either arrogant, delusional, boring, and/or influenced by devil spirits for writing such things
but i also trust that we will all do our own sifting and winnowing
and i can certainly appreciate and agree with what i sense is a strong desire for practical spiritual applications
though i dont think this can be found if we also prematurely reject most all spiritual doctrines and theories as being unsound
and given the influence that PFAL/TWI/VPW/LCM doctrines have had on all of us, as well as other factors (such as the post-modern pluralism i mention here and there)
i can assume that i am mostly being considered as either arrogant, delusional, boring, and/or influenced by devil spirits for writing such things
not by me. your posts make me think, which is something I like to do a lot of since leaving twi. if I wasn't so perpetually sleep deprived I would spend even more time thinking than I do now.
your previous posts made me think about someone I know who lies pathologically. lies come out of his mouth as easily as the truth and have for as long as I've known him, over 20 years. in twi he got a lot of ego stroking for being a workman of the word and only 1 person "discerned" his lying but never attributed it to devil spirits. another caught him in a significant lie and was confused by the true man vs. the false projection he'd built in her mind.
I tried to figure it out for a long time. naturally twi would have him possessed by some hardcore devils spirits, mainly lying spirits and charming spirits, but interestingly enough none of the leadership saw anything amiss. after considering for several years, he just looks broken to me. there seems to be a gap in his ability to reason and plan that leads him down the wrong path more often than down the right one. consequences have no meaning and are met with disbelief and denial.
so, could he have a knot or knots in a chakra and could he "heal" by combing it or them out? it's hard to believe that he could change at this point because he seems so utterly broken and without empathy that becoming a real person seems out of his reach, even if he realized it and wanted to change. thoughts?
I think anyone can change, with some godly help~ who'd-a-thunk Saul/Paul would be preachin' Jesus Christ as they witnessed Stephen's execution? Stephen's dying prayer had a lot to do with it, imo. He was just following in his Lord's footsteps when , with his dying breath he uttered, "Lay not this sin to their charge" (Acts 7:60) Next thing ya know, Saul's knocked off his high horse by the Lord Himself!
I believe it does take participation on the individual's part. That's also where our intercessory prayers come into play, imo. I imagine being a friend of one of those imprisoned or executed under Saul's regime. It had to take some real depth to accept him into the fellowship after what he'd done.
so, could he have a knot or knots in a chakra and could he "heal" by combing it or them out? it's hard to believe that he could change at this point because he seems so utterly broken and without empathy that becoming a real person seems out of his reach, even if he realized it and wanted to change. thoughts?
well, as all with of us, this guy IS a real person, regardless of his condition. but i can assume you know this, too...and by "real person," you meant something else. which is ok with me. English is kinda grubby these days, anyway.
i think it helps to remember how chakra-type maps can be oversimplified, too…and can represent physical and/or psychological aspects of the self. They can represent actual organs and groups of organs, and/or our subjective views of aspects of those organs and our self in relationship to our world. Two sides of the same coin, even though a lot of us pick one and reject the other as irrelevant. Cuz yes, our "mind" is more than merely a "brain," and our "mind" exists throughout our entire body, and includes that part of us that experiences the mind. (see my thoughts in doctrinal if interested).
But i'm no expert or specialist in either, i am mostly just a poet and artist...so this is nowhere near an informed or qualified diagnosis, but i might start looking for a psychological hang-up in the region of the throat...where communication happens. And working the "knots" out may involve skilled self-inquiry into deeper motives for lying and such, and in ways that involve an intentional increase in honest dialogue with others. So it will likely have to be a journey that involves caring, competent friends and community. And of course, a will to participate on the part of this person.
In other words…if so, its likely not a diet issue, or something surgery or RX will fix, or something a change of scenery will fix, or a new job, or something that can be beat out of them, or exorcized, etc… (though any of these may augment healing)
And its not that we will be always be able to see some physical evidence of a “chakra” being opened, or cleaned, or tightened (if it was too loose)…but using the map of them as a narrative helps locate where to start an inquiry. And as every “spirit” is interconnected with the rest of the whole self of “chakras”… issues anywhere reverberate throughout the entire self structure…and can even be obscured by its relationships to the rest. For example: if I am being a pathological liar, it may affect my health and my relationships, as well as my ability to forgive, or eat well. Or…it may be that my lying is secondary, and is actually being caused by my deeper inability to forgive. Or it may stem from a fear and control issue from lower down in the gut. Or it may even be coming from way down lower, and may involve things that happened during gestation or birth. Discernment involves inquiry, intuition, patience, knowledge, plus...
In any case...if such a person is really healed of such a core issue in their later adult life...their life may change so radically that they are not recognizable to those who got used to them as they were, and maybe not even accepted for having changed too much, even if the change is for the better. This does not support the healing, of course. Such rejection of healing possibilities may even keep one from getting healed.
Also…sometimes the darkest conditions so utterly break us, where if we don’t simply die from it, we arise like a phoenix from the ashes without competent help at all …and surprise everyone. Such radical grace is well known in spiritual literatures and experience.
And, of course, there are no guarantees for healing everything in life anyway, and most do take their deepest problems to the grave, lacking competent environment of support and resources. Spiritual healing in those final stages involves more of a radical acceptance of one’s mortal condition regardless of the outcome (and on the part of relatives and friends of the dying, as well). It’s often the only kinds of healing possible in the end. This is perhaps the very ground of all spiritual healing that we should engage in prior to this point anyway....that radical acceptance and simply noticing of what is.
"I AM" is often described as the role of the highest "chakra"...that "rainbow nimbus and crown of Christ," etc...
Of course, we do need simple ways to navigate the complexity without outright rejecting the nature of complexity. i do so by carrying a trinity of principles in my pocket…precision, compassion, and curiosity…which, to me, are the equiv of “power, love and a sound mind.” And all three at once…always…or each one is its own problem all alone.
well, as all with of us, this guy IS a real person, regardless of his condition. but i can assume you know this, too...and by "real person," you meant something else. which is ok with me. English is kinda grubby these days, anyway.
real... I went through a process of becoming real. like the velveteen rabbit, only it was loving myself that made me real, and I learned to do it after I accepted being loved by others. this did not happen in twi, it happened once I started to step outside twi. so yes, I mean something beyond the literal meaning of real, because I had to integrate parts of myself that I'd broken off to survive and I became real instead of a fake projection of whatever I needed to be to survive.
In any case...if such a person is really healed of such a core issue in their later adult life...their life may change so radically that they are not recognizable to those who got used to them as they were, and maybe not even accepted for having changed too much, even if the change is for the better. This does not support the healing, of course. Such rejection of healing possibilities may even keep one from getting healed.
this is very true. I changed and my closest friends resisted because the transformation scared them so completely. change to that degree is difficult and I found it more like a pendulum swing where the center ends up someplace different than it started... a lot of adjustments involved wild swings well outside my normal modes of thinking. I plowed ahead with it even believing I'd lost my best friends, and they eventually adjusted and one even said I was more Potato-y than when I'd started, which to me means I found myself by putting myself back together and becoming real.
with this person, I believe the lying is protective. the immediate benefit of lying is approval, with never a thought that not following through with his promises will bring disapproval. somehow that part doesn't compute. in the face of disapproval he resorts to denial of responsibility, blame, and if those don't work, more placating lies. I would be very stunned if he changed even a little, but I'd be happy to see a change. I would be no good at providing support during the change though, because I'd assume any apparent change was just more BS.
A lot of the types of thinking you do now I tried 30 and 40 years ago.
I'm just done with it, that's all. It was fun and useful... to a point.
and i must say...that those fields and theories you mention are merely objective and inter-objective lines of inquiry
...not subjective or inter-subjective modes, where Spirit has traditionally been found by the saints and sages of old
There are a a lot of quantum/Zen connection enthusiasts who might disagree with this. Same with some artificial intelligence explorers, who deny any difference between a machine's "mind" and the brain's mind, and hence the difference between subjective and objective. And Cantor's infinities can suggest many spiritual invitations.
ya know..something i never even mentioned that is probably as important as a vertical "chakra" notion of spiritual discernment, is a horizontal typology for spiritual discernment.
this is about the sacred psychology of personality types, which is perhaps more judeo-christian than the "chakra" notions anyway
basically, it says that we are made up of 9 manifestations of the face of God
3 gut types, 3 heart types, and 3 head types
and we are each a 9-branched tree within
but ONE of these types is our primary type, simply for being the first closest point we entered the world through
even though there are as many ways of expressing each type as there are people in each type
so this ONE type is simultaeneously our gift and curse...being the longest line, casting the longest shadow
and is based on decisions we made in our first years of life
yet all the other "types" of expressions live in us too
when looking into the enneagram, our type is typically the one we like the least ..the one that bothers us the most...(with the exception of one type..which doesnt mind)
methinks VPW ripped off the enneagram, too
and severely watered it down
which makes it hard to hear for exway...cuz so many things he said were ripped...its hard to hear them again in a different older context and take seriously
anyway, how discernment works in these schools
is in the deep arts of friendship...which involves a lifelong relationship with someone who listens and mirrors back to you (someone YOU choose)
and helps discern what type you are, and how it effects your life, and how you relate to other types, etc...
(though in these traditions..WE are the ultimate authority on what type we think/feel we are)
and soul-friend helps prescribe/suggest specific spiritual practices you might engage in to help start the lifelong journey of becoming "real" and "whole," by integrating all 9 types
it was also rooted in contemplative tradtions...meaning that it was the speciality of monks and nuns and those who were devoted in the ways of silence, compassion, inquiry, and deep deep listening
this type of role of "lay confessor" in the enneagram traditions predates the catholic confession booths, and has ties in celtic arts of dying, too
as well as islamic sufi traditions and others
this is quite a rabbit hole of a topic, too
being loose here...but what you've described about your friend, potato, sounds like an expression of one of the personality types..one whose gift and curse is a heart that feels what others are feeling, and is stuck in being deceptive in order to impress. Without someone that we trust to mirror for us, we usually cant see the downfall of our type at all.
this puts a whole different twist on 9 manifestations as we were taught in pfal
where they are not special abilities given to born agains
but something every human being already always has within
and "being born again" is simply the act of waking up to such interior awareness
the "day of the lord" is always at hand, in this regard
where the "twinkling of an eye" is really just the simplest shift of attention
and to "repent" is to turn one's perspective completely around
from "outer darkness"...to inner light...
where that "everburning bush" is that "tree of life" within
That is, indeed, an interesting take on the "Big 9".
It definately give new meaning to "all 9 all the time".
Side note:
Mike's comment to my post was merely in jest.
It is part of an old routine that Firesign Theater did many years ago.
It takes place at a student assembly at More Science High.
Principal Poop begins by addressing the students.
"My fellow kids", says he.
From the audience comes the shout of "What is reality?"(the line that I gave.)
Someone else shouts "Eat it!"(The line that mike gave.)
Then someone shouts "Eat it raw!!"
Principal Poop, being somewhat taken back, takes a diversional approach and responds by saying, "Uhmmmmmmm! Yes, Rah, Rah--- That's the school spirit."
Sorry for the derail. I felt that needed an explanation.
"discerning" of pneuma". I would broaden the definition to include a 'spiritual" sense of the condition of life, where it's understood deeper than the immediate actions or behavior and goes to the underlying causes. Less a matter of pin pointing bad "pneumas" by name.
The AC usually spent a lot of time on covering "types of spirits", and generally "bad" ones, the "daimonion" and daimons, those Big 'n' Little Bad Boys.
SirG hits squarely on the essence - behavior and quality of life. To get granular for a sec - typically in Way World a type of behavior might be "discerned" to be caused by a specific kind of "spirit" influencing or controlling another's behavior. What's that really mean? It means, there's an independent "spirit", that's causing a person to act or think a certain way.
Why a person acts or thinks a certain way goes much deeper than that though, the cause isn't reduced to a simple "the devil made me do it'.
Records of Jesus and other people indicate that I think, in that His effect on other people and their needs was - well, there's that one record about "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting". I don't interpret that as instructions to pray and fast more "over" a person, but that they needed to grow more as individuals in their overall faith and trust towards God.
"Spirit of lying". A spirit that "makes" a person lie? Why's a person lie to begin with? What's going on, really?
My thought would be, the entire topic of d. of s. doesn't lie in knowing "types of devil spirits", if that's something to be known it doesn't really tell you a lot does it? That sense that there's "something else' going on is really literally, "discerning", an awareness of what's going on. Like W. G. said, the idea of knowing another person's state could be a burden more than anything else. Knowing it is just one thing, what to do to help, another. And there's nothing worse than someone wanting to do anything and everything to help but being a pain in the butt trying to do it.
There are a a lot of quantum/Zen connection enthusiasts who might disagree with this. Same with some artificial intelligence explorers, who deny any difference between a machine's "mind" and the brain's mind, and hence the difference between subjective and objective. And Cantor's infinities can suggest many spiritual invitations.
Mike...
what is a "quantum/Zen connection enthusiast"???
and while you've got the time, what do you mean "the brain's mind"???
I tried to check on wikipedia but couldn't find the answers...
and while you've got the time, what do you mean "the brain's mind"???
I tried to check on wikipedia but couldn't find the answers...
Tom,
The terms I used there are my own, but they adequately describe things that go on in those circles, otherwise sirguessalot wouldn't have been able to follow me there.
Using the internet or any paper reference books will not help very much in this area as it is too rarefied a field. I suggest you hang out in bookstores in the cognitive sciences section and the physics section if you want to follow me on those subjects. However, I rarely bring them up. It was Todd that brought it out of me since he and I have talked about these things before.
For brain stuff read anything by the Patricia Churchland, Paul Churchland, Antonio Domasio, V.S. Ramachandran, Daniel Dennett, and the writers they cite. "The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick (the DNA guy) gets into this a lot.
For the physics try Heinz Pagel or Nick Herbert. Nick's "Quantum Reality" is a must. Also look for "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "The Tao of Physics."
All these people and books are wikigooglable.
One of the problems with Internet research is that it gives the illusion that the researcher finds everything on a subject if the key words used hit the target.
Another problem with this method is that if just the right keywords are NOT used in searching, then it gives the illusion that you may have just suffered from: that the subject doesn't exist.
This same problem comes up in Biblical research. Try looking up "free will" or "foreknowledge" in your Youngs Concordance. Many have and come away with the conclusion that those two subjects are not treated adequately in the Bible or that they don't even exist.
One of the problems with Internet research is that it gives the illusion that the researcher finds everything on a subject if the key words used hit the target.
Another problem with this method is that if just the right keywords are NOT used in searching, then it gives the illusion that you may have just suffered from: that the
subject doesn't exist.
I suspect Tom could have CONTINUED his search, but rather than fish a while and root around, he sensibly asked you for more information instead.
I think EVENTUALLY he would have found it.
He never said "the subject doesn't exist", just that one source didn't have anything on it.
"tried to check on wikipedia but couldn't find the answers..."
(That's not "reading what is written"...)
We all know internet searches- like ALL methods of searching, research, study, etc, has its limits.
Technology =\= magic, all joking aside.
This same problem comes up in Biblical research. Try looking up "free will" or "foreknowledge" in your Youngs Concordance. Many have and come away with the conclusion that those two subjects are not treated adequately in the Bible or that they don't even exist.
Then again,
many (here and other places) have come away with the conclusion that these two subjects are
indeed treated adequately in the Bible,
just not in a textbook format like 20th/21st century students would prefer.
I've participated in discussions on both, here and other places.
Tom, it's too much for you. If you knew, your head would explode. A straightforward answer is impossible, it would take pages just to lay the groundwork for the explanation.
well...i'm guessing you probably werent expecting this kinda thing when you started this thread, cinderpelt
so ...as an attempt to complete a summary of a picture ive been painting around here regarding my view of discerning of spirits...maybe read slow...its intentionally dense
(i also posted it here in case anyone wants to take it to da "donjon")
- being human is already always a body/soul/spirit manifestation of a "staff" and "spectrum" of discernable frequencies ("chakras" + many other names in world's spiritual traditions and literature).
- the contents of our whole "staff" is also a unique manifestation of a specific discernable "personality type," based on our entry point on a matrix of 9 "orienting coordinates"
- there are 9+ discernable interwoven "branches" (maybe think "lines of intelligence") that develop from that entry point, and up through the scaffolding of this whole "staff" we were born with...which is how we start discovering the nature of this "staff" that we already always are
- each of these "branches" develops (and gets lost) along a spectrum in their own ways, giving us plenty of discernable variables, values and textures, allowing a kind of "cartography of the spirit of our self"
- the average stages of development of all our "branches" generates a discernable overall personal "center of gravity," even though we also have branches that have developed above or below the gravity of this main knot
- society and culture are collective gatherings of such radically detailed individuals and their centers of gravity...generating cultural "waves" and "fields" with their own discernable overall centers of gravity (the collective average of all the individual averages)
- the dynamics of how different cultural and individual centers of gravity interact with each other are discernable, not only in present day, but in historical records, as well as in forecasting the future
- the capacity to at least speak in terms of a spectrum of frequencies and development is necessary for spiritual discernment...maybe think of speaking in "tongues" as speaking (and thinking) in terms of "waves" or "wavelengths"...a very practical way to apply such discernments is by being able to communicate what is discerned.
- And maybe think of "spirit" as "the spirit of a thing" ...or "quality and quantity of a thing" ...or "attitudes and altitudes" of a thing ...or "composition and contours" of a thing. And maybe think of "discernment" as "measurement"...which involves all our lines of intelligence, including intuition.
- all of which is very different from what i learned and believed from pfal...in how pfal taught that spirit is basically an IT that we GET, which equals "getting born again," which gives us 9 supernatural powers, and the power to "discern spirits" basically only allows us to discern good types of supernatural entities, bad types of supernatural entities, good spiritual "seeds" in people, and bad spiritual "seeds" in people.
Tom, it's too much for you. If you knew, your head would explode. A straightforward answer is impossible, it would take pages just to lay the groundwork for the explanation.
Once again my brother from the sock drawer I am indebted to you!
Thanks for looking out for me! (again)
Are you praying and fasting, Tom?
...maybe tomorrow after the BBQ is over! there's too much food and beer here to do that now...
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I think you are right on this WG. Faith doesn't require a class or a syllabus. It requires trust and action. It was simple you were in a situation, God told you something wasn't quite right and that this guy intended harm towards you, you trusted His word and then you acted. Simple. No big formula. Just faith in the promise of God.
Discerning of Spirits seems fairly simple to me. The ability to tell one from the other of more than one kind of spirit. Devil spirits may have differnent functions, they may not...dont know...dont see a reason to care. Devil spirits in my opinion lump into one thing, bad. Good spirits, like holy spirit or Angels can be discerned as well. Like when you are in a position where things are dicey and instead of hearing "this guy means you harm" you hear "this guy's ok, trust him". I've had it go both ways and when I listen things turn out just fine.
The ability of course comes from God through the holy spirit that we get when we are born again. The AC made it all sound so very complicated and one sided...the focus was all on the bad side. It just seemed wrong to me.
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sirguessalot
Mike...yer right. I do often suggest deeper than tradition kinds of inquiry
but i also suggest exploring the depth of the world's great traditions
cuz relatively few in our culture really ever have
yet go on making inflated faith claims anyway
and dismissing things never even looked into
while claiming to understand them all
...and i hafta include you in this
and i must say...that those fields and theories you mention are merely objective and inter-objective lines of inquiry
...not subjective or inter-subjective modes, where Spirit has traditionally been found by the saints and sages of old
but i'll stop there about that..cuz the "spiritual wilderness" is increasingly complicated, if nothing else
and that is a natural enough of a reason for many to stop and oversimplify
especially in our age of very challenging hyper-evolving complications and unprecedented access to global historical information
and given the influence that PFAL/TWI/VPW/LCM doctrines have had on all of us, as well as other factors (such as the post-modern pluralism i mention here and there)
i can assume that i am mostly being considered as either arrogant, delusional, boring, and/or influenced by devil spirits for writing such things
but i also trust that we will all do our own sifting and winnowing
and i can certainly appreciate and agree with what i sense is a strong desire for practical spiritual applications
though i dont think this can be found if we also prematurely reject most all spiritual doctrines and theories as being unsound
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potato
not by me. your posts make me think, which is something I like to do a lot of since leaving twi. if I wasn't so perpetually sleep deprived I would spend even more time thinking than I do now.
your previous posts made me think about someone I know who lies pathologically. lies come out of his mouth as easily as the truth and have for as long as I've known him, over 20 years. in twi he got a lot of ego stroking for being a workman of the word and only 1 person "discerned" his lying but never attributed it to devil spirits. another caught him in a significant lie and was confused by the true man vs. the false projection he'd built in her mind.
I tried to figure it out for a long time. naturally twi would have him possessed by some hardcore devils spirits, mainly lying spirits and charming spirits, but interestingly enough none of the leadership saw anything amiss. after considering for several years, he just looks broken to me. there seems to be a gap in his ability to reason and plan that leads him down the wrong path more often than down the right one. consequences have no meaning and are met with disbelief and denial.
so, could he have a knot or knots in a chakra and could he "heal" by combing it or them out? it's hard to believe that he could change at this point because he seems so utterly broken and without empathy that becoming a real person seems out of his reach, even if he realized it and wanted to change. thoughts?
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cinderpelt
I think anyone can change, with some godly help~ who'd-a-thunk Saul/Paul would be preachin' Jesus Christ as they witnessed Stephen's execution? Stephen's dying prayer had a lot to do with it, imo. He was just following in his Lord's footsteps when , with his dying breath he uttered, "Lay not this sin to their charge" (Acts 7:60) Next thing ya know, Saul's knocked off his high horse by the Lord Himself!
I believe it does take participation on the individual's part. That's also where our intercessory prayers come into play, imo. I imagine being a friend of one of those imprisoned or executed under Saul's regime. It had to take some real depth to accept him into the fellowship after what he'd done.
~Cinder
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sirguessalot
thanks for the thoughtful response, potato
well, as all with of us, this guy IS a real person, regardless of his condition. but i can assume you know this, too...and by "real person," you meant something else. which is ok with me. English is kinda grubby these days, anyway.
i think it helps to remember how chakra-type maps can be oversimplified, too…and can represent physical and/or psychological aspects of the self. They can represent actual organs and groups of organs, and/or our subjective views of aspects of those organs and our self in relationship to our world. Two sides of the same coin, even though a lot of us pick one and reject the other as irrelevant. Cuz yes, our "mind" is more than merely a "brain," and our "mind" exists throughout our entire body, and includes that part of us that experiences the mind. (see my thoughts in doctrinal if interested).
But i'm no expert or specialist in either, i am mostly just a poet and artist...so this is nowhere near an informed or qualified diagnosis, but i might start looking for a psychological hang-up in the region of the throat...where communication happens. And working the "knots" out may involve skilled self-inquiry into deeper motives for lying and such, and in ways that involve an intentional increase in honest dialogue with others. So it will likely have to be a journey that involves caring, competent friends and community. And of course, a will to participate on the part of this person.
In other words…if so, its likely not a diet issue, or something surgery or RX will fix, or something a change of scenery will fix, or a new job, or something that can be beat out of them, or exorcized, etc… (though any of these may augment healing)
And its not that we will be always be able to see some physical evidence of a “chakra” being opened, or cleaned, or tightened (if it was too loose)…but using the map of them as a narrative helps locate where to start an inquiry. And as every “spirit” is interconnected with the rest of the whole self of “chakras”… issues anywhere reverberate throughout the entire self structure…and can even be obscured by its relationships to the rest. For example: if I am being a pathological liar, it may affect my health and my relationships, as well as my ability to forgive, or eat well. Or…it may be that my lying is secondary, and is actually being caused by my deeper inability to forgive. Or it may stem from a fear and control issue from lower down in the gut. Or it may even be coming from way down lower, and may involve things that happened during gestation or birth. Discernment involves inquiry, intuition, patience, knowledge, plus...
In any case...if such a person is really healed of such a core issue in their later adult life...their life may change so radically that they are not recognizable to those who got used to them as they were, and maybe not even accepted for having changed too much, even if the change is for the better. This does not support the healing, of course. Such rejection of healing possibilities may even keep one from getting healed.
Also…sometimes the darkest conditions so utterly break us, where if we don’t simply die from it, we arise like a phoenix from the ashes without competent help at all …and surprise everyone. Such radical grace is well known in spiritual literatures and experience.
And, of course, there are no guarantees for healing everything in life anyway, and most do take their deepest problems to the grave, lacking competent environment of support and resources. Spiritual healing in those final stages involves more of a radical acceptance of one’s mortal condition regardless of the outcome (and on the part of relatives and friends of the dying, as well). It’s often the only kinds of healing possible in the end. This is perhaps the very ground of all spiritual healing that we should engage in prior to this point anyway....that radical acceptance and simply noticing of what is.
"I AM" is often described as the role of the highest "chakra"...that "rainbow nimbus and crown of Christ," etc...
Of course, we do need simple ways to navigate the complexity without outright rejecting the nature of complexity. i do so by carrying a trinity of principles in my pocket…precision, compassion, and curiosity…which, to me, are the equiv of “power, love and a sound mind.” And all three at once…always…or each one is its own problem all alone.
all grace,
Todd
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potato
real... I went through a process of becoming real. like the velveteen rabbit, only it was loving myself that made me real, and I learned to do it after I accepted being loved by others. this did not happen in twi, it happened once I started to step outside twi. so yes, I mean something beyond the literal meaning of real, because I had to integrate parts of myself that I'd broken off to survive and I became real instead of a fake projection of whatever I needed to be to survive.
this is very true. I changed and my closest friends resisted because the transformation scared them so completely. change to that degree is difficult and I found it more like a pendulum swing where the center ends up someplace different than it started... a lot of adjustments involved wild swings well outside my normal modes of thinking. I plowed ahead with it even believing I'd lost my best friends, and they eventually adjusted and one even said I was more Potato-y than when I'd started, which to me means I found myself by putting myself back together and becoming real.
with this person, I believe the lying is protective. the immediate benefit of lying is approval, with never a thought that not following through with his promises will bring disapproval. somehow that part doesn't compute. in the face of disapproval he resorts to denial of responsibility, blame, and if those don't work, more placating lies. I would be very stunned if he changed even a little, but I'd be happy to see a change. I would be no good at providing support during the change though, because I'd assume any apparent change was just more BS.
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Mike
Todd,
A lot of the types of thinking you do now I tried 30 and 40 years ago.
I'm just done with it, that's all. It was fun and useful... to a point.
There are a a lot of quantum/Zen connection enthusiasts who might disagree with this. Same with some artificial intelligence explorers, who deny any difference between a machine's "mind" and the brain's mind, and hence the difference between subjective and objective. And Cantor's infinities can suggest many spiritual invitations.
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waysider
What is reality?
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Mike
EAT it!
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sirguessalot
ya know..something i never even mentioned that is probably as important as a vertical "chakra" notion of spiritual discernment, is a horizontal typology for spiritual discernment.
this is about the sacred psychology of personality types, which is perhaps more judeo-christian than the "chakra" notions anyway
Here is something i posted about it a while back
basically, it says that we are made up of 9 manifestations of the face of God
3 gut types, 3 heart types, and 3 head types
and we are each a 9-branched tree within
but ONE of these types is our primary type, simply for being the first closest point we entered the world through
even though there are as many ways of expressing each type as there are people in each type
so this ONE type is simultaeneously our gift and curse...being the longest line, casting the longest shadow
and is based on decisions we made in our first years of life
yet all the other "types" of expressions live in us too
when looking into the enneagram, our type is typically the one we like the least ..the one that bothers us the most...(with the exception of one type..which doesnt mind)
methinks VPW ripped off the enneagram, too
and severely watered it down
which makes it hard to hear for exway...cuz so many things he said were ripped...its hard to hear them again in a different older context and take seriously
anyway, how discernment works in these schools
is in the deep arts of friendship...which involves a lifelong relationship with someone who listens and mirrors back to you (someone YOU choose)
and helps discern what type you are, and how it effects your life, and how you relate to other types, etc...
(though in these traditions..WE are the ultimate authority on what type we think/feel we are)
and soul-friend helps prescribe/suggest specific spiritual practices you might engage in to help start the lifelong journey of becoming "real" and "whole," by integrating all 9 types
it was also rooted in contemplative tradtions...meaning that it was the speciality of monks and nuns and those who were devoted in the ways of silence, compassion, inquiry, and deep deep listening
this type of role of "lay confessor" in the enneagram traditions predates the catholic confession booths, and has ties in celtic arts of dying, too
as well as islamic sufi traditions and others
this is quite a rabbit hole of a topic, too
being loose here...but what you've described about your friend, potato, sounds like an expression of one of the personality types..one whose gift and curse is a heart that feels what others are feeling, and is stuck in being deceptive in order to impress. Without someone that we trust to mirror for us, we usually cant see the downfall of our type at all.
this puts a whole different twist on 9 manifestations as we were taught in pfal
where they are not special abilities given to born agains
but something every human being already always has within
and "being born again" is simply the act of waking up to such interior awareness
the "day of the lord" is always at hand, in this regard
where the "twinkling of an eye" is really just the simplest shift of attention
and to "repent" is to turn one's perspective completely around
from "outer darkness"...to inner light...
where that "everburning bush" is that "tree of life" within
and the 9 manifestations (as i described above)
are the "voices of angels" that we hear
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sirguessalot
a lot of types of thinking i do now didn't even exist 30 and 40 years ago, Mike
though i have no problem with including the partial truths of 30 or 40 years ago
(or 300 or 400 years ago...or 3000 or 4000 years ago)
...as partial truths with a gamut of natural limitations
and yeah...i know quite a few zen/quantum enthusiasts who disagree
at the risk of you answering...what is the point of mentioning it?
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waysider
Sir G.
That is, indeed, an interesting take on the "Big 9".
It definately give new meaning to "all 9 all the time".
Side note:
Mike's comment to my post was merely in jest.
It is part of an old routine that Firesign Theater did many years ago.
It takes place at a student assembly at More Science High.
Principal Poop begins by addressing the students.
"My fellow kids", says he.
From the audience comes the shout of "What is reality?"(the line that I gave.)
Someone else shouts "Eat it!"(The line that mike gave.)
Then someone shouts "Eat it raw!!"
Principal Poop, being somewhat taken back, takes a diversional approach and responds by saying, "Uhmmmmmmm! Yes, Rah, Rah--- That's the school spirit."
Sorry for the derail. I felt that needed an explanation.
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sirguessalot
hehe...funny
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socks
"discerning" of pneuma". I would broaden the definition to include a 'spiritual" sense of the condition of life, where it's understood deeper than the immediate actions or behavior and goes to the underlying causes. Less a matter of pin pointing bad "pneumas" by name.
The AC usually spent a lot of time on covering "types of spirits", and generally "bad" ones, the "daimonion" and daimons, those Big 'n' Little Bad Boys.
SirG hits squarely on the essence - behavior and quality of life. To get granular for a sec - typically in Way World a type of behavior might be "discerned" to be caused by a specific kind of "spirit" influencing or controlling another's behavior. What's that really mean? It means, there's an independent "spirit", that's causing a person to act or think a certain way.
Why a person acts or thinks a certain way goes much deeper than that though, the cause isn't reduced to a simple "the devil made me do it'.
Records of Jesus and other people indicate that I think, in that His effect on other people and their needs was - well, there's that one record about "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting". I don't interpret that as instructions to pray and fast more "over" a person, but that they needed to grow more as individuals in their overall faith and trust towards God.
"Spirit of lying". A spirit that "makes" a person lie? Why's a person lie to begin with? What's going on, really?
My thought would be, the entire topic of d. of s. doesn't lie in knowing "types of devil spirits", if that's something to be known it doesn't really tell you a lot does it? That sense that there's "something else' going on is really literally, "discerning", an awareness of what's going on. Like W. G. said, the idea of knowing another person's state could be a burden more than anything else. Knowing it is just one thing, what to do to help, another. And there's nothing worse than someone wanting to do anything and everything to help but being a pain in the butt trying to do it.
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Tom Strange
Mike...
what is a "quantum/Zen connection enthusiast"???
and while you've got the time, what do you mean "the brain's mind"???
I tried to check on wikipedia but couldn't find the answers...
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socks
Are you praying and fasting, Tom?
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Mike
Tom,
The terms I used there are my own, but they adequately describe things that go on in those circles, otherwise sirguessalot wouldn't have been able to follow me there.
Using the internet or any paper reference books will not help very much in this area as it is too rarefied a field. I suggest you hang out in bookstores in the cognitive sciences section and the physics section if you want to follow me on those subjects. However, I rarely bring them up. It was Todd that brought it out of me since he and I have talked about these things before.
For brain stuff read anything by the Patricia Churchland, Paul Churchland, Antonio Domasio, V.S. Ramachandran, Daniel Dennett, and the writers they cite. "The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick (the DNA guy) gets into this a lot.
For the physics try Heinz Pagel or Nick Herbert. Nick's "Quantum Reality" is a must. Also look for "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "The Tao of Physics."
All these people and books are wikigooglable.
One of the problems with Internet research is that it gives the illusion that the researcher finds everything on a subject if the key words used hit the target.
Another problem with this method is that if just the right keywords are NOT used in searching, then it gives the illusion that you may have just suffered from: that the subject doesn't exist.
This same problem comes up in Biblical research. Try looking up "free will" or "foreknowledge" in your Youngs Concordance. Many have and come away with the conclusion that those two subjects are not treated adequately in the Bible or that they don't even exist.
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WordWolf
I suspect Tom could have CONTINUED his search, but rather than fish a while and root around, he sensibly asked you for more information instead.
I think EVENTUALLY he would have found it.
He never said "the subject doesn't exist", just that one source didn't have anything on it.
"tried to check on wikipedia but couldn't find the answers..."
(That's not "reading what is written"...)
We all know internet searches- like ALL methods of searching, research, study, etc, has its limits.
Technology =\= magic, all joking aside.
Then again,
many (here and other places) have come away with the conclusion that these two subjects are
indeed treated adequately in the Bible,
just not in a textbook format like 20th/21st century students would prefer.
I've participated in discussions on both, here and other places.
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socks
Tom, it's too much for you. If you knew, your head would explode. A straightforward answer is impossible, it would take pages just to lay the groundwork for the explanation.
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cman
Funny Mike's claim to this knowledge is based on a question from and response on this knowledge.
Therefore I conclude that Mike has very little knowledge of what he is saying.
And rides on the coat tails of others to feed.
Using what he has little knowledge of to confuse the issue.
When the actual issue would clearly help discover this very knowledge of these scientific terms.
Their origins, people involved, the progress made and where it stands in general today.
Though Todd used the exact wording he did not claim any knowledge of it.
I can put words together also that exist and rearrange them to confuse the issue as well.
But I'm not Mike so I won't.
The apparent knowledge that is claimed by Mike can be found by separating his double wording.
It's really simple and that is what is so fun.
Actually there is a discovery show on about these subjects occasionally.
But it's no different then studying other things that make the world go around.....
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rascal
Everything is viewed as a feed into why we need pfal.
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sirguessalot
well...i'm guessing you probably werent expecting this kinda thing when you started this thread, cinderpelt
so ...as an attempt to complete a summary of a picture ive been painting around here regarding my view of discerning of spirits...maybe read slow...its intentionally dense
(i also posted it here in case anyone wants to take it to da "donjon")
- being human is already always a body/soul/spirit manifestation of a "staff" and "spectrum" of discernable frequencies ("chakras" + many other names in world's spiritual traditions and literature).
- the contents of our whole "staff" is also a unique manifestation of a specific discernable "personality type," based on our entry point on a matrix of 9 "orienting coordinates"
- there are 9+ discernable interwoven "branches" (maybe think "lines of intelligence") that develop from that entry point, and up through the scaffolding of this whole "staff" we were born with...which is how we start discovering the nature of this "staff" that we already always are
- each of these "branches" develops (and gets lost) along a spectrum in their own ways, giving us plenty of discernable variables, values and textures, allowing a kind of "cartography of the spirit of our self"
- the average stages of development of all our "branches" generates a discernable overall personal "center of gravity," even though we also have branches that have developed above or below the gravity of this main knot
- society and culture are collective gatherings of such radically detailed individuals and their centers of gravity...generating cultural "waves" and "fields" with their own discernable overall centers of gravity (the collective average of all the individual averages)
- the dynamics of how different cultural and individual centers of gravity interact with each other are discernable, not only in present day, but in historical records, as well as in forecasting the future
- the capacity to at least speak in terms of a spectrum of frequencies and development is necessary for spiritual discernment...maybe think of speaking in "tongues" as speaking (and thinking) in terms of "waves" or "wavelengths"...a very practical way to apply such discernments is by being able to communicate what is discerned.
- And maybe think of "spirit" as "the spirit of a thing" ...or "quality and quantity of a thing" ...or "attitudes and altitudes" of a thing ...or "composition and contours" of a thing. And maybe think of "discernment" as "measurement"...which involves all our lines of intelligence, including intuition.
- all of which is very different from what i learned and believed from pfal...in how pfal taught that spirit is basically an IT that we GET, which equals "getting born again," which gives us 9 supernatural powers, and the power to "discern spirits" basically only allows us to discern good types of supernatural entities, bad types of supernatural entities, good spiritual "seeds" in people, and bad spiritual "seeds" in people.
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Tom Strange
awww... c'mon Mike... can't you just simply answer the questions??? (in YOUR own words)
I know that's not your usual M.O. but I do hold out hope (but not my breath)....
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Tom Strange
Once again my brother from the sock drawer I am indebted to you!
Thanks for looking out for me! (again)
...maybe tomorrow after the BBQ is over! there's too much food and beer here to do that now...
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