I would love to respond to your question and in time just might however not today I'm waiting on some official input before I can do so.
OK, thanks ... but I don't quite get this "offical input" you require. I thought we were just talking to WD the individual. Are you an agent for something more official?
OK, thanks ... but I don't quite get this "offical input" you require. I thought we were just talking to WD the individual. Are you an agent for something more official?
No just waiting for a board issue to be clairified before proceeding.
"Newspapermen learn to call a murderer 'an alleged murderer' and the king of England
'the alleged king of England' to avoid lawsuits."- Stephen Leacock.
Well , some 45 pages later someone got the point ,and with The Way attorneys on the rampage would it not be just the smart thing, if for no other reason than that booth over there with Belle's (allegedly of course) gum under the table to just speak accurately.
Personally, I'd be inclined to consider that WD MIGHT be out to protect us from twi's
lawyers, if he hadn't waited 45 pages to bring it up.
Before that, he was trying to convince us that this messageboard and our discussions
have to follow standards for going before the grand jury.
This is not a court of law, and this is not a newspaper.
(Under WD's type of ruling, to be CONSISTENT -and not just reluctant to believe
NEGATIVE testimony-one would have to preface EVERYTHING with ELABORATE
disclaimers or extensive documentation,
thus we'd end up with comments like
"I'd like to thank Pawtucket, who allegedly runs this messageboard,
for allegedly giving us the chance to allegedly speak."
It's as sensible as calling the Queen of England "the alleged Queen of England"
or the President of the USA "the alleged President of the USA."
But, again, one is only hearing that ONE SIDE need preface all comments...
I think if you look back through my posts you will see I have mentioned it previously. I was more concerned with the board liability than individual, as Mr. Squirrel pointed out I doubt that they want his acorns, I doubt they want Paws acorns either but they might settle for another site going away. Either way that is his decision to make. I have observed that he does watch the posts and I think he would prefer we do and say things that are factual. I doubt he needs the aggravation if we don't. Again he can speak for himself on that as well. Regardless that was secondary to what I said concerning people reading. There is the phrase You can be so heavenly that you are no earthly good. Another words you are not helping anyone ,because they don't relate. Speaking untruthfully has the same results I've seen and heard it from others who came here. Being truthful is also a personal attribute. I'd discuss you examples but why bother, it is obvious that the Queen is the Queen and that the President is the President and that Pawtucket runs this message board. We can know this from facts again which was the point.
I was more concerned with the board liability than individual, ... I doubt they want Paws acorns either but they might settle for another site going away.
I still don't know what happened with WayDale. If WayDale was bought, then it appears they did nothing wrong. Things embarrassing to TWI were exposed, and they were willing to pay to cover them up?
So the more people openly discuss their experiences the better. TWI will have to pay Pawtuckett even more, though I don't think anything I wrote is owned by Pawtucket. If someone is copying all these pages, I would gladly give them the right to put my info on their web page somewhere else. (not that I am the one holding the valuable info here).
This being the internet age, it would all probably stay cached in Google anyway. But I imagine Pawtucket looks at his liability ... though it seems abundantly clear people express opinions and first hand experiences. I'm not sure how responsible the site is to be sure people tell the truth ... probably not very ...
Friend,You have people who care about you,You would never be on the "street"
Thanks friend. I know..
still it's a paycheck to paycheck life. Not that I'm complaining.. it IS a life.. and like I said, I'm really happy here.. don't feel sorry for myself. Just could have done a little better.. but I'm working on that.
:)
I really consider those in der vey, especially on the board level, worse off than me. What kinda life is THAT?
Don't have anything much better to do with their time than..
carefully guard their pile of cash.. but that's "tricky". You have to have guards, guards to guard the guards.. guards to guard the guards that guard the guards..
and there ARE a few rules.. they can't legally just dip into the funds any old way they see fit, at least LEGALLY.
They are so bored that they don't have anything better than jealously guard their "precious" copyrights.. to outdated materials, almost fifty years old.. a product, which would interest only a VERY limited market.
I've never seen anybody try to sell any bootleg copies of loy's class.. no Belezian group busy with the copiers.. IT WOULD NOT SELL. Even to those in the VERY limited market.
But those at the top seem to be so bored.. they consider "surfing da web" as looking for SMALL, unwary, "lookalike" organizations to throw to the lawyers..
There is no monetary gain for doing so. Not that I can see, anyway. Maybe it's like the ancient days of Rome in decline.. throwing Christians to the lions (lawyers) just for some kind of "harmless" diversion..
I think that you've got treasure in you. If you've been through so much then you deserve whatever you need to be built up. Being tore down can be so wearisome.
Dear Rascal,
I'm so very thankful for your posts.
Dear Paw,
I do not understand all this board stuff. When it comes to computers and the internet I'm at kindergarten level. Are you facing legal pressure as to the content of this site? Is that common? Am I completely misunderstanding these references to board liability?
SOME PEOPLE JUST WON'T STOP AT ANYTHING TO GET PEOPLE TO BE QUITE.
Dear Rhino,
What is Waydale?
Dear Wordwolf,
I don't really think WD was trying to protect us from TWI's lawyers either, but I felt that I had to something good about WD's posts. The best I could come up with was saying that the warning "could be" considered well intended.
I CAN'T BLAME THE LAWYERS FOR JUST DOING THERE JOBS. WITH MY BACKGROUND I WOULD PROBABLY PASS ON BEING A LAWYER FOR A GROUP THAT WAS GOING UP AGAINST PEOPLE WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. I've read the book of Acts a lot and would be waiting for God to bring the matter to a satisfying conclusion like he did for Paul in Corinth. Even if nothing like that happened, I think too highly of the American rights of free speech and so forth to want to cave in to a nuiscance lawsuit.
In the early eighties I counted on my rights as an American citizen to persuade my then misguided family to quit considering the deprogramming option. I think they believed that I was acting of my own accord when I got to talk to them, when I was a WOW Ambassador.
What a supreme pity that the same organization that was the target of fear mongering and bullying of all sorts is now the same one that treats people just as badly and even worse.
I do not understand all this board stuff. When it comes to computers and the internet I'm at kindergarten level. Are you facing legal pressure as to the content of this site? Is that common? Am I completely misunderstanding these references to board liability?
SOME PEOPLE JUST WON'T STOP AT ANYTHING TO GET PEOPLE TO BE QUIET.
Dear Rhino,
What is Waydale?
(snip)
What a supreme pity that the same organization that was the target of fear mongering and bullying of all sorts is now the same one that treats people just as badly and even worse.
WHAT'S NEXT, KIDNAPPING?
If twi could use kidnapping and other measures to enforce their will and conformity, they would.
As you've seen, at some places and times, they've really put people to the screws to get them to conform when IN twi,
and convinced them that to leave twi was to leave God's approval,
so that only when desperate did people decide to try leaving,
even if it meant God rejecting them.
The internet has been a boon towards making information easy to find and exchange.
Since twi thrives on a BLACKOUT of information, and controlling communication, it's small wonder that twi has considered
the internet its greatest threat and told people to never go online.
Years ago, when ex-twi survivors began to communicate together on Waydale, they traded notes and realized THEY
weren't the ONLY ones who suffered, and the more complete picture of twi began to form.
Waydale became a previously-nonexistent information resource, even to innies.
It hosted some documents, and was the only source of information on things like a civil suit by an ex-staffer
who sued for inappropriate stuff inflicted while on staff, which vpw taught lcm was perfectly normal.
AFAIK, (As Far As I Know), Waydale agreed to shut down as a consequence of the out-of-court settlement on the
aforementioned civil suit. Shortly thereafter, the GreaseSpot Cafe opened up, and some of the old Waydale
Documents are in the documents file.
The GSC's been around for what must be approaching a decade. If twi COULD shut it up, it WOULD.
But, that would have happened a decade ago, if it could have happened.
AFAIK, there's no pressure on Paw (from twi) to be quiet, conform, shut the site down, or anything else.
The First Amendment the the US Constitution guarantees certain rights, and this site operates well within those
rights (free speech, association, and so on.) Some might suspect that posted concerns that Paw would suddenly be
forced to shut the GSC down by twi are not really about that at all, since it's been shown not to matter by now.
I think Kidnapping has already been done when the old vicster would lure girls to his motorcoach under false pretenses with help from his driver/bodyguards, drug them, then rape them and transport them across state lines for a visit to a campus or event somewhere.
I wonder what the statute of limitations is on kidnapping???
Dear Excathedra, I think that you've got treasure in you. If you've been through so much then you deserve whatever you need to be built up. Being tore down can be so wearisome.
awww thanks jeff, but really, i've gotten so much help and kindness here, it's unbelievable
i'm fine (well today ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha )
on the other board (waydale) -- before pawtucket took over to keep the extwi stuff going -- back in 1999 or 2000 -- it was a lot harder, believe me
some people think the boards have changed, some people think i have changed. i think it's both
i was so desparately seeking validation before when i joined waydale that i about broke down when people didn't "see" me
I think Kidnapping has already been done when the old vicster would lure girls to his motorcoach under false pretenses with help from his driver/bodyguards, drug them, then rape them and transport them across state lines for a visit to a campus or event somewhere.
I wonder what the statute of limitations is on kidnapping???
my memory is hazy on this, maybe someone else remembers The Forehead "teaching" about deprogramming, somewhen in the early 90's... did he almost say kidnapping was justifiable if someone was taken by their family to try to get them out of twi? I didn't keep any tapes and don't think I could stomach listening to that nut job even though I think transcripts would be a golden resource here. anyone remember that particular subject?
You're welcome. I'm doing fine too. ( Today ha ha ha ha ha ) I think that I know how you feel.
Dear Wordwolf,
Thanks for all the information, it helps me a lot to deal with the things that I have no scope on. You filled in some pretty big blanks for me.
Dear Potato and But Now I See,
Those are very hard things for me to hear. I think that if I had been more of an "innie" in those days I may have fallen into those kinds of things. Even if I wouldn't have, as a man I can imagine the temptation. Power sometimes leads to corruption.
It brings to mind Biblical records like: Eli and his sons, Balam and the daughters of Moab: and even David and Bathshebah.
Dear Waysider,
Thanks for posting the statute, it makes it very plain. Like I've said before, I don't believe activity has to be technically criminal for the works to be burnt up.
I've been thinking some more about the "what if I was there," would I have fallen into the sin question since yesterday. One thing that I'm thinking is that it's really impossible for me to say for sure, many people throughout history have found out that when the heat is on that they were capable of more evil than they would have ever dared admit. Just talk to some good christian people that lived in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's and you'll see how hard this struggle can be.
So I've been thinking why expound on that line of thinking at all.
One possible answer is that if the only man that never sinned throughout history understands temptation so should I.
Another possible answer is that even though someone's hurt badly, when they're ready it may be good to get past demonizing the villain of the drama. I don't blame the wounded for being mad, but eventually we must come to the place where we can recognize any human frailty as something that we all share in to some extent. It seems to me a healthy place to be able to get to anyway.
I could share some things from my life that would indicate that it would be possible for me to have sunk pretty low.
I could share some things that would indicate that I never have sunk so low, even though I have sinned.
Never been with a married woman; I have been with single, willing women.
I generally am violently opposed to abuse even though I remember times when I was a big jerk in my marriage.
etc. etc.
We all share in shortcomings, we're human. The Lord himself will judge all things. (Please bear with me y'all, it's the only way I know to deal with these issues.)
I have no desire to smear anyones reputation, but if it means really helping one hurting individual then the reputation will have to be set aside for loves sake. The living are the only ones to help, the dead are the Lord's to judge.
Personally speaking, I am capable of being thankful for a man that helped me, even if he may have hurt others. Don't we all do that for those who we care about, I think so.
The only good thing that I know to do in this circumstance is to help and show compassion to the wounded. LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY!
I don`t know Jeff. I think that there is a difference between one whom *falls short* which we all do, and one whom willingly embraces evil. Someone whom would put their lusts, their desires above the good of a brother or sister, someone whom would willingly destroy a brother or sister in a fashion possible if displeased or dissapointed in what they desired.
The complete indifference with which they destroyed reputations, divided families, and cast people out ...to me indicates a complete lack of understanding of love...the greatest comandment...
God said that we would know one another by who manifested the fruit of the spirit...he likewise told us that we would recognise those of the flesh by their fruit.
Which category does wierwille and his leaders fall into??
Is there a difference in how we view a brother that has fallen short, and a man of the flesh who has no inheritance in the kingdom of God?
Jesus seemed to think there was a difference, judging by how he treated the lady caught in adultery and the pharacees and money changers :(
Biblically, leadership doesn't get more sin ignored by the Lord, they get a stricter judgement. That may be for the very reasons you're speaking of.
As a human being, in my own struggles I know the "hook" that sin can plant in my heart, that's not an excuse, it's just the way it is. I can understand a person getting hooked, but I don't have to like what I see.
I consider myself to be PFAL fruit, and that's all that I can say on that.
My more recent experiences have sensitized me to the effects that leadership's sin can have on biblical integrity. For me that's the hardest pill to swallow because I believe biblical integrity could have cured the disease. I know that this isn't the doctrinal section but as we're discussing TWI it can't be ignored either. I may never know intimate details, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of good people were either cowed into shutting up or were kicked out if they didn't shut up.
I guess that I have to wonder since Jesus told us how to recognize one another...by our *fruit*.... and honestly examining the fruit of these people.....if they really are my brothers in Christ at all.
I see a different standard applied to false prophets...those whom would deceive and draw away from God... to wolves who would devour the sheep of the flock....the folks that sated the lusts of their bellies.
I just have absolutely no use for them. They are God`s problem, not mine....he just tells us to stay away from the people that act like our leaders did.. Why.. because he hates them??
I think that maybe it is because they are dangerous....espeacially so, because they disarm our suspiscions by masquerading as his ministers :(
Personally speaking, I am capable of being thankful for a man that helped me, even if he may have hurt others. Don't we all do that for those who we care about, I think so.
gotta think about that one
i think i'm capable of forgiving, but thankful ??? ummmmm
Don't we all do that for those who we care about, I think so.
no not in the context of what you are talking about
I guess that what I am saying is...I don`t know if I believe that this is a trap christians fall into...(being desirous of control) or a symptom of one who is *of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God*
I mean, I have met many genuine Christians both in twi and since leaving....and I have yet to see one who manifests the fruit that would indicate that they are of the spirit...in short a born again christian behave as our leaders did.
Most christians are not seducing or drugging and raping their sisters, sleeping with their brothers wives, abusing children and destroying lives and reputations at a whim.
I think that our leaders were for the most part....wannabees...masqueraders...I think that maybe they even fooled themselves into believing that they were the genuine article.
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rhino
OK, thanks ... but I don't quite get this "offical input" you require. I thought we were just talking to WD the individual. Are you an agent for something more official?
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WhiteDove
No just waiting for a board issue to be clairified before proceeding.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
No,
WD missed both MY and Stephen Leacock's point.
Personally, I'd be inclined to consider that WD MIGHT be out to protect us from twi's
lawyers, if he hadn't waited 45 pages to bring it up.
Before that, he was trying to convince us that this messageboard and our discussions
have to follow standards for going before the grand jury.
This is not a court of law, and this is not a newspaper.
(Under WD's type of ruling, to be CONSISTENT -and not just reluctant to believe
NEGATIVE testimony-one would have to preface EVERYTHING with ELABORATE
disclaimers or extensive documentation,
thus we'd end up with comments like
"I'd like to thank Pawtucket, who allegedly runs this messageboard,
for allegedly giving us the chance to allegedly speak."
It's as sensible as calling the Queen of England "the alleged Queen of England"
or the President of the USA "the alleged President of the USA."
But, again, one is only hearing that ONE SIDE need preface all comments...
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frank123lol
Friend,You have people who care about you,You would never be on the "street"
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WhiteDove
I think if you look back through my posts you will see I have mentioned it previously. I was more concerned with the board liability than individual, as Mr. Squirrel pointed out I doubt that they want his acorns, I doubt they want Paws acorns either but they might settle for another site going away. Either way that is his decision to make. I have observed that he does watch the posts and I think he would prefer we do and say things that are factual. I doubt he needs the aggravation if we don't. Again he can speak for himself on that as well. Regardless that was secondary to what I said concerning people reading. There is the phrase You can be so heavenly that you are no earthly good. Another words you are not helping anyone ,because they don't relate. Speaking untruthfully has the same results I've seen and heard it from others who came here. Being truthful is also a personal attribute. I'd discuss you examples but why bother, it is obvious that the Queen is the Queen and that the President is the President and that Pawtucket runs this message board. We can know this from facts again which was the point.
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rhino
I still don't know what happened with WayDale. If WayDale was bought, then it appears they did nothing wrong. Things embarrassing to TWI were exposed, and they were willing to pay to cover them up?
So the more people openly discuss their experiences the better. TWI will have to pay Pawtuckett even more, though I don't think anything I wrote is owned by Pawtucket. If someone is copying all these pages, I would gladly give them the right to put my info on their web page somewhere else. (not that I am the one holding the valuable info here).
This being the internet age, it would all probably stay cached in Google anyway. But I imagine Pawtucket looks at his liability ... though it seems abundantly clear people express opinions and first hand experiences. I'm not sure how responsible the site is to be sure people tell the truth ... probably not very ...
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Ham
Thanks friend. I know..
still it's a paycheck to paycheck life. Not that I'm complaining.. it IS a life.. and like I said, I'm really happy here.. don't feel sorry for myself. Just could have done a little better.. but I'm working on that.
:)
I really consider those in der vey, especially on the board level, worse off than me. What kinda life is THAT?
Don't have anything much better to do with their time than..
carefully guard their pile of cash.. but that's "tricky". You have to have guards, guards to guard the guards.. guards to guard the guards that guard the guards..
and there ARE a few rules.. they can't legally just dip into the funds any old way they see fit, at least LEGALLY.
They are so bored that they don't have anything better than jealously guard their "precious" copyrights.. to outdated materials, almost fifty years old.. a product, which would interest only a VERY limited market.
I've never seen anybody try to sell any bootleg copies of loy's class.. no Belezian group busy with the copiers.. IT WOULD NOT SELL. Even to those in the VERY limited market.
But those at the top seem to be so bored.. they consider "surfing da web" as looking for SMALL, unwary, "lookalike" organizations to throw to the lawyers..
There is no monetary gain for doing so. Not that I can see, anyway. Maybe it's like the ancient days of Rome in decline.. throwing Christians to the lions (lawyers) just for some kind of "harmless" diversion..
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rascal
White Dove, I am not worried about what you have to say *proof wise* official input or not, because I have a clear conscience.
I will be interested in seeing you finally admit that you cannot prove your allegations.
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WhiteDove
Thanks you may not be but I am, I'll pass until I get some clairification.
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JeffSjo
Dear Excathedra,
I think that you've got treasure in you. If you've been through so much then you deserve whatever you need to be built up. Being tore down can be so wearisome.
Dear Rascal,
I'm so very thankful for your posts.
Dear Paw,
I do not understand all this board stuff. When it comes to computers and the internet I'm at kindergarten level. Are you facing legal pressure as to the content of this site? Is that common? Am I completely misunderstanding these references to board liability?
SOME PEOPLE JUST WON'T STOP AT ANYTHING TO GET PEOPLE TO BE QUITE.
Dear Rhino,
What is Waydale?
Dear Wordwolf,
I don't really think WD was trying to protect us from TWI's lawyers either, but I felt that I had to something good about WD's posts. The best I could come up with was saying that the warning "could be" considered well intended.
I CAN'T BLAME THE LAWYERS FOR JUST DOING THERE JOBS. WITH MY BACKGROUND I WOULD PROBABLY PASS ON BEING A LAWYER FOR A GROUP THAT WAS GOING UP AGAINST PEOPLE WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. I've read the book of Acts a lot and would be waiting for God to bring the matter to a satisfying conclusion like he did for Paul in Corinth. Even if nothing like that happened, I think too highly of the American rights of free speech and so forth to want to cave in to a nuiscance lawsuit.
In the early eighties I counted on my rights as an American citizen to persuade my then misguided family to quit considering the deprogramming option. I think they believed that I was acting of my own accord when I got to talk to them, when I was a WOW Ambassador.
What a supreme pity that the same organization that was the target of fear mongering and bullying of all sorts is now the same one that treats people just as badly and even worse.
WHAT'S NEXT, KIDNAPPING?
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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WordWolf
If twi could use kidnapping and other measures to enforce their will and conformity, they would.
As you've seen, at some places and times, they've really put people to the screws to get them to conform when IN twi,
and convinced them that to leave twi was to leave God's approval,
so that only when desperate did people decide to try leaving,
even if it meant God rejecting them.
The internet has been a boon towards making information easy to find and exchange.
Since twi thrives on a BLACKOUT of information, and controlling communication, it's small wonder that twi has considered
the internet its greatest threat and told people to never go online.
Years ago, when ex-twi survivors began to communicate together on Waydale, they traded notes and realized THEY
weren't the ONLY ones who suffered, and the more complete picture of twi began to form.
Waydale became a previously-nonexistent information resource, even to innies.
It hosted some documents, and was the only source of information on things like a civil suit by an ex-staffer
who sued for inappropriate stuff inflicted while on staff, which vpw taught lcm was perfectly normal.
AFAIK, (As Far As I Know), Waydale agreed to shut down as a consequence of the out-of-court settlement on the
aforementioned civil suit. Shortly thereafter, the GreaseSpot Cafe opened up, and some of the old Waydale
Documents are in the documents file.
The GSC's been around for what must be approaching a decade. If twi COULD shut it up, it WOULD.
But, that would have happened a decade ago, if it could have happened.
AFAIK, there's no pressure on Paw (from twi) to be quiet, conform, shut the site down, or anything else.
The First Amendment the the US Constitution guarantees certain rights, and this site operates well within those
rights (free speech, association, and so on.) Some might suspect that posted concerns that Paw would suddenly be
forced to shut the GSC down by twi are not really about that at all, since it's been shown not to matter by now.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
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now I see
I think Kidnapping has already been done when the old vicster would lure girls to his motorcoach under false pretenses with help from his driver/bodyguards, drug them, then rape them and transport them across state lines for a visit to a campus or event somewhere.
I wonder what the statute of limitations is on kidnapping???
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excathedra
awww thanks jeff, but really, i've gotten so much help and kindness here, it's unbelievable
i'm fine (well today ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha )
on the other board (waydale) -- before pawtucket took over to keep the extwi stuff going -- back in 1999 or 2000 -- it was a lot harder, believe me
some people think the boards have changed, some people think i have changed. i think it's both
i was so desparately seeking validation before when i joined waydale that i about broke down when people didn't "see" me
thanks so much
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waysider
Re: The Mann Act of 1910
http://wise.fau.edu/~tunick/courses/conlaw/mann.html
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potato
my memory is hazy on this, maybe someone else remembers The Forehead "teaching" about deprogramming, somewhen in the early 90's... did he almost say kidnapping was justifiable if someone was taken by their family to try to get them out of twi? I didn't keep any tapes and don't think I could stomach listening to that nut job even though I think transcripts would be a golden resource here. anyone remember that particular subject?
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JeffSjo
Dear Excathedra,
You're welcome. I'm doing fine too. ( Today ha ha ha ha ha ) I think that I know how you feel.
Dear Wordwolf,
Thanks for all the information, it helps me a lot to deal with the things that I have no scope on. You filled in some pretty big blanks for me.
Dear Potato and But Now I See,
Those are very hard things for me to hear. I think that if I had been more of an "innie" in those days I may have fallen into those kinds of things. Even if I wouldn't have, as a man I can imagine the temptation. Power sometimes leads to corruption.
It brings to mind Biblical records like: Eli and his sons, Balam and the daughters of Moab: and even David and Bathshebah.
Dear Waysider,
Thanks for posting the statute, it makes it very plain. Like I've said before, I don't believe activity has to be technically criminal for the works to be burnt up.
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JeffSjo
Hi everyone,
I've been thinking some more about the "what if I was there," would I have fallen into the sin question since yesterday. One thing that I'm thinking is that it's really impossible for me to say for sure, many people throughout history have found out that when the heat is on that they were capable of more evil than they would have ever dared admit. Just talk to some good christian people that lived in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's and you'll see how hard this struggle can be.
So I've been thinking why expound on that line of thinking at all.
One possible answer is that if the only man that never sinned throughout history understands temptation so should I.
Another possible answer is that even though someone's hurt badly, when they're ready it may be good to get past demonizing the villain of the drama. I don't blame the wounded for being mad, but eventually we must come to the place where we can recognize any human frailty as something that we all share in to some extent. It seems to me a healthy place to be able to get to anyway.
I could share some things from my life that would indicate that it would be possible for me to have sunk pretty low.
I could share some things that would indicate that I never have sunk so low, even though I have sinned.
Never been with a married woman; I have been with single, willing women.
I generally am violently opposed to abuse even though I remember times when I was a big jerk in my marriage.
etc. etc.
We all share in shortcomings, we're human. The Lord himself will judge all things. (Please bear with me y'all, it's the only way I know to deal with these issues.)
I have no desire to smear anyones reputation, but if it means really helping one hurting individual then the reputation will have to be set aside for loves sake. The living are the only ones to help, the dead are the Lord's to judge.
Personally speaking, I am capable of being thankful for a man that helped me, even if he may have hurt others. Don't we all do that for those who we care about, I think so.
The only good thing that I know to do in this circumstance is to help and show compassion to the wounded. LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY!
I really don't want to be a false accuser either.
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rascal
I don`t know Jeff. I think that there is a difference between one whom *falls short* which we all do, and one whom willingly embraces evil. Someone whom would put their lusts, their desires above the good of a brother or sister, someone whom would willingly destroy a brother or sister in a fashion possible if displeased or dissapointed in what they desired.
The complete indifference with which they destroyed reputations, divided families, and cast people out ...to me indicates a complete lack of understanding of love...the greatest comandment...
God said that we would know one another by who manifested the fruit of the spirit...he likewise told us that we would recognise those of the flesh by their fruit.
Which category does wierwille and his leaders fall into??
Is there a difference in how we view a brother that has fallen short, and a man of the flesh who has no inheritance in the kingdom of God?
Jesus seemed to think there was a difference, judging by how he treated the lady caught in adultery and the pharacees and money changers :(
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JeffSjo
Hi Rascal,
It's always a pleasure.
Biblically, leadership doesn't get more sin ignored by the Lord, they get a stricter judgement. That may be for the very reasons you're speaking of.
As a human being, in my own struggles I know the "hook" that sin can plant in my heart, that's not an excuse, it's just the way it is. I can understand a person getting hooked, but I don't have to like what I see.
I consider myself to be PFAL fruit, and that's all that I can say on that.
My more recent experiences have sensitized me to the effects that leadership's sin can have on biblical integrity. For me that's the hardest pill to swallow because I believe biblical integrity could have cured the disease. I know that this isn't the doctrinal section but as we're discussing TWI it can't be ignored either. I may never know intimate details, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of good people were either cowed into shutting up or were kicked out if they didn't shut up.
(The last paragraph I added by editing)
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rascal
Jeff, you always treat me so nice :)
I guess that I have to wonder since Jesus told us how to recognize one another...by our *fruit*.... and honestly examining the fruit of these people.....if they really are my brothers in Christ at all.
I see a different standard applied to false prophets...those whom would deceive and draw away from God... to wolves who would devour the sheep of the flock....the folks that sated the lusts of their bellies.
I just have absolutely no use for them. They are God`s problem, not mine....he just tells us to stay away from the people that act like our leaders did.. Why.. because he hates them??
I think that maybe it is because they are dangerous....espeacially so, because they disarm our suspiscions by masquerading as his ministers :(
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excathedra
i think i'm capable of forgiving, but thankful ??? ummmmm
no not in the context of what you are talking about
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brideofjc
I think that maybe it is because they are dangerous....espeacially so, because they disarm our suspiscions by masquerading as his ministers :(
Unfortunately, they just are not limited to TWI, they are in the mainstream churches as well. I've had too many run-ins
since leaving TWI and it saddens me that people are so desirous for control.
But as the Scriptures do attest, we are all susceptible to falling into this temptation as well.
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rascal
I guess that what I am saying is...I don`t know if I believe that this is a trap christians fall into...(being desirous of control) or a symptom of one who is *of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God*
I mean, I have met many genuine Christians both in twi and since leaving....and I have yet to see one who manifests the fruit that would indicate that they are of the spirit...in short a born again christian behave as our leaders did.
Most christians are not seducing or drugging and raping their sisters, sleeping with their brothers wives, abusing children and destroying lives and reputations at a whim.
I think that our leaders were for the most part....wannabees...masqueraders...I think that maybe they even fooled themselves into believing that they were the genuine article.
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