I think we're not even close to being on the same page WD, but that doesn't surprise me.
Actually the issue was if I remember at the start of the thread.
{Quote}
My question:
Have you found there are no easy answers after you left the way?
you said I may have had deeper issues, and I explained what my deeper issue was. I wasn't referring, at that point, back to the question at the beginning of the thread.
But your right it depended on whether you made the scripture your own as learned in PFAL or just sucked down every man's opinion and PI as to which road you took.
this is where I take a different fork in the road, since I believe a lot of the process of making the scripture your own as learned in PFAL actually was PI and some man's opinion. PFAL was PI, vpw's PI based on other scholars' work. anyway, it mattered little as to what I made my own of the scripture and only the scripture; what I learned in real life was that to survive as comfortably as possible, I should not disagree with what the leaders were teaching. if I hadn't been married, it might have been a lot different. I would have got myself kicked out, no doubt, for disagreeing with the teachers :)
Was Paul in God's will when he went to Jerusalem or not? I don't know.
Does a loving God reprove by suffering? I don't know.
Can I explain why Jesus the man is to be worshiped in the book Revelation? I don't know.
Equally intelligent and Godly men differ on all sorts of scriptural topics. I can live with the "tensions." I can enjoy God without knowing it all.
I don't want a doctrinal discussion about this, but I want to share how questions bounce about it my head. It's ok really it is.
Now, when I wrote about packages, I was thinking about Christmas packages. Silly me. Of course, sperm count is the topic! Tom you are Strange :)
thanks for this thread, Imagine. I am enjoying it, even if some find it an opportunity to "reprove". I also can live with the tensions, because I just don't think anyone has all the answers. what's more important is that we question and think. both were discouraged in twi, so I'm having a pretty good time being able to do it. I have a whole lot fewer answers than I used to, and I'm ok with that.
I think we're not even close to being on the same page WD, but that doesn't surprise me.
Me either, nor does it surprise me that you see reproof where there was none. Speaking of tightly wrapped packages, it's easy to blame someone else for your situations like the LC the TC the Way The dog. but as I attempted to point out just for your consideration something that often escapes peoples thinking ,that little two letter word me. While others may indeed have had a part in your situation, the old adage fits here "you might not be able to stop being kicked ,but you can determine where your land. Just saying here....that is a choice as well.
What I learned in real life was that to survive as comfortably as possible, I should not disagree with what the leaders were teaching.
I missed the scripture that said we were to survive as comfortably as possible in life . I don't see that in the life of the believers in scripture. I see plenty of uncomfortable situations for Jesus, Paul and others. Their example to speak the truth is ours to follow regardless of circumstances, I'm sure they could have had some reasons for not speaking up as well in their day. We have all at times failed, each day is a new one and we make adjustments. But if we never acknowledge that we had a part in where the situation ended up and write it off as someone else's fault in a nice package then we never get to the real solution to the problem. There were thousands of people who passed through the way and no shortage of jerks, and I understand that people in general want to be liked and all. But at the end of the day you either walk the talk or not. It's easy to say It Is Written tougher to live it. When the rubber met the road we all faced choices, me I felt I had to live with mine ,so jerks went by the wayside. That’s my POV yours differs........ so be it.
WD, your message, like so many I heard in twi, sounds scriptural, but you're drowning in your own righteousness. I've heard it all before and it's the main reason I'm not christian anymore. the more people profess to know, the less in reality they actually know that's useful. false teachers and false prophets and the devil himself can make scriptural arguments, but when it boils down to it, can you really help someone with that? without trying to understand their background and circumstances? you don't know what happened to me, or really anybody else, in twi, so how can you sit in judgment and pronounce that I'm wrong or that I'm not taking responsibility for being there? my problem was not that I didn't acknowledge my part in it, but that I didn't acknowledge the part others played in it until this past year. have you ever lived with a megalomaniac? or someone with a personality disorder? if so, I'd be really interested in your take on life in my shoes. otherwise, not really.
I'm not at all sure I'm right any more, but I do still have a lingering fear of being wrong.
Here are three answers I think are helpful.
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor.
3. Love yourself.
That's about all there is to it. The rest is gravy, and everyone makes gravy differently. If you like your gravy best, that's great. Just ask politely before you pour your gravy on another's meatloaf. They might like theirs better.
I'm not at all sure I'm right any more, but I do still have a lingering fear of being wrong.
Here are three answers I think are helpful.
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor.
3. Love yourself.
That's about all there is to it. The rest is gravy, and everyone makes gravy differently. If you like your gravy best, that's great. Just ask politely before you pour your gravy on another's meatloaf. They might like theirs better.
I guess what I'm trying to express is that your basic beliefs are just that - yours. If you like fundamentalism that's great. If I need to know a fundamentalist point of view on something, I'll be sure to ask. If you are a Presbyterian and believe in predestination, that's okay too. I don't but I'll respect your right to believe it, and I'll never call you "stupid" because I disagree.
Life's too short to being trying to cram some POV on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin down one another's throat. A month or so ago, a video class was run in our church adult Sunday school that some people loved, some people thought was mostly okay, some people thought was boring, and I had a severe emotionally allergic reaction to. I was so upset I ended up dropping out of the class. But that's me. Another guy mentioned later how wonderful he thought this video class was, and how it helped him realize he needed a deeper personal relationship with God. That's him.
Thankfully, no one tried to force me to believe I was wrong because I disagreed with some, actually a lot, of what this video was teaching as truth. Had that been in TWI, I would've have been soundly reproved at the first sign of doubt. If that didn't straighten me up, I would have been screamed at, then finally put on spiritual probation, then marked and avoided if I didn't conform pretty quickly. My questions would never have been answered because asking questions is a sign of unbelief.
Unfortunately, I think some of us still find ourselves promoting the self-righteous attitude that WE are right and the rest of the world is wrong. I'd rather get to personally know a loving God Whose son is His example of what to think, say and do as I live life to the fullest here and now, than try to prove how great I am - because that would be an impossible task for just about everyone, especially me.
I'm not at all sure I'm right any more, but I do still have a lingering fear of being wrong.
Here are three answers I think are helpful.
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor.
3. Love yourself.
That's about all there is to it. The rest is gravy, and everyone makes gravy differently. If you like your gravy best, that's great. Just ask politely before you pour your gravy on another's meatloaf. They might like theirs better.
Okay?
WG
WG, what some here might have forgotten is, it's about Karma Man, KARMA!
Throw Jesus away today, and tomorrow it's Buddha, or Cat Stevens, or a bottle of Jack. Or hey, maybe a new Avatar to go with those groovy cowboy boots! (Pass me that reeefer...) Just Love Baby Love!
We posted at the same time. My next post is right above yours. I should have included non-Christian points of view in that first paragraph, but I'm rushed and I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head.
Have you found there are no easy answers after you left the way?
In general, no.
However, I have found easy answers in some categories. It just depends on the question. For example, if my wife asks me "Honey, will you do ______ for me?"
The easy answer is YES. In that scenario, NO is never an easy answer...
However, I have found easy answers in some categories. It just depends on the question. For example, if my wife asks me "Honey, will you do ______ for me?"
The easy answer is YES. In that scenario, NO is never an easy answer...
what a great deliverance story!!! you no longer have to discuss with leadership the spiritual ramifications of doing ______ for your wife to make sure you're not opening a door for satan, justify your decision in writing, follow up with your leadership with a written report on the results of your decision, or have to go to meetings if granting your wife's request makes leadership uncomfortable.
WD, callous, drowning in his own righteousness? :huh: Sorry guys and gals, I don't see it.
These days when I see posts by those who still agree with what they were taught in PFAL I see folks who have just made a decision to go a different route than I did. To them, there are parts that are worth hanging on to. I disagree, but I don't ahve to live their lives and they don't have to live mine.
And Whitey, while, from an inerrant bible point of view, getting it right is important, and some might say crucial, I suspect that it was the "be right at the expense of the love of God" attitude that prevailed in some quarters that is the problem. Nothing wrong with being right, nothing wrong with shaking things up some of the time, but sometimes being right just isn't that important. An imperfect example might be that I believe that proper grammar facilitates good communication and that an extensive vocabulary enriches it. That doesn't mean that I'm going to correct my wife's grammar if she doesn't pronounce a word correctly. I think it's that level of nit picking that folks are talking about.
One thing that I noticed during my time in TWI (or rather see in retrospect): if a person was strong enough to withstand the crap, they often had an influence on those around them, especially if those around them were of like mind. A personal committment to God or to love those around them put up a kind of wall about them. They were like islands in the river of muck. It was when the scales tipped the other way (boy I am mixing my metaphors :B) ) that things got too bad to take and people left. It's why we have GSers who left at all different periods of TWI history, and it all seemed like the right time to each.
WD, callous, drowning in his own righteousness? :huh: Sorry guys and gals, I don't see it.
These days when I see posts by those who still agree with what they were taught in PFAL I see folks who have just made a decision to go a different route than I did. To them, there are parts that are worth hanging on to. I disagree, but I don't ahve to live their lives and they don't have to live mine.
I don't have any problem with anyone embracing what they learned in pfal beyond my own opinion that most of the class was lame, but I really don't like people attempting to discern the cause of my problems when they don't know me or my situation. there were plenty of barely-veiled implications in WD's posts to me. the things that happened to me were not a result of any failure to make the scripture my own. far from it.
After giving it some more thought, I've realized that I had a quest to be RIGHT, not just out a fear of being wrong, but because I believed the Bible TOLD me I should be questing to be right in God's eyes (study to show thyself approved).
And after reading WD's comments, I've also realized that deep down, I do still quest to be right as much as possible. The difference is, I no longer think there is only ONE "right". And I no longer think that I am the only one who might come up with the best solution to any given situation. I am far more willing to have my eyes, ears, and heart open to the possibilities, rather than already having my mind made up about what I think is definitively right and definitively wrong.
One of twi's big mistakes was it fell into cookie-cutter theology and one-mold-fits-all practices. All corps on the field had to dial in to Craig's rantings in order to be like-minded, everyone needed to be completely out of debt, everyone had to be an advanced class grad, no one should have family pets, all marriages should be fashioned after Craig and Donna's, everyone had to listen to the SNS tapes and teach on them that week in fellowships.... I could go on and on and on...
I think that life is complex enough that what is right for one situation may be totally wrong for another. And while twi "SAID" that's what they believed, anyone who lived through it knows they certainly didn't practice it !!!
Oakspear- Agreed I have no qualms with the nit picking thing at the expense of the Love of God, there certainly was enough of that to go around. I guess I was looking at the "right" from a different direction a biblical one.
Everyone - This has nothing to do with self righteousness, the fact is we were involved with a ministry that was built on the standard of It Is Written and while arguably that may not have always been the case in every situation. (that's a argument for a different day.) It none the less was the core of the groups teaching. How many different ways did we hear it? The Word of God is the Will of God, Make the Word your own, God's Magnified Word, It Is Written, The Integrity of the Word and a whole long line of others. This was ministry 101 so to speak, starting in PFAL or before in Twigs. We were to make the scriptures a standard or reference point in life. It's like going through fifteen years of math classes and not understanding two plus two equal four. Anyone that spent more than fifteen minutes at the way should have got that. I suppose there were some that never took that seriously that never made the scriptures their rule of faith and practice ,that seems a foreign concept to me . Why would you be there if you did not want to live that kind of life? That's what they were offering why stay around if that was not what one was wanting?
Now assuming that everyone was now wanting this lifestyle due to the fact they were staying around and not only that but speaking and promoting it to others. I must admit I am amazed that when the rubber met the road that this concept somehow went out the window , Why anyone would not really out of automatic response almost, confront each situation with scriptural response. The concept of just "being comfortable" seems foreign to one who said they wanted to live a lifestyle of biblical standard. I'll insert here Yes - I got it! (face melting, fear of family, wanting to be loved, leaving a program and then rest) But then again going back to the lifestyle that we were wanting to adhere to . We would have seen that none of those things should have moved us from the truth of scriptures. When confronted with Bulls*** it seems that the response would be not to cower away but to respond with that which we had learned It Is Written. Sorry I just don't get why anyone took the abuse. I can only conclude that person did not make the scripture their own to the point of where none of those things moved them, the place where speaking and living the truth was more important than personal comfort. I realize that some peoples opinions have changed as of now but at the time I think its fair to say that most were of the mind of standing up for the scripture.
Potato - Your right I don't know you but having read some 2,000 of your posts I can say this They are your words ,and I can't remember any that said you took any personal responsibility in any of the situations that you spoke of. It is always the Way ,the Twig Coordinator, the Branch Coordinator the Limb Coordinator. your Ex, and on and on. While it may be true that had a part in the situation ,you did as well. Look you had a plan - to fade back and live comfortably despite what you professed you were doing while in the Way, which was speaking the truth and living according to scripture. Fine your choice, I think you see now it didn't work. What it did do was prolong the point where you had to make the choice that you were faced with in the first place, at your expense I might add with years of frustration built up inside of you from not speaking.
I don't know you or why the core teaching of the ministry that you were involved with did not reach you. But it is obvious from your response that it did not first in your plan to not speak ,and live comfortably and second in your total abandonment of scripture as posted "and it's the main reason I'm not Christian anymore" That the lifestyle of living according to scripture was not priority in both cases is clear by your response. It is a easy recognizable fact in your decision not to speak up and your decision to not adhere to Christian scripture period.
I made or make no comment on as to why that was your choice only that from facts that you presented that it was your choice. At this point I'll add this( before someone infers that is what I mean) ,being a non Christian does not make you a bad person it makes you a non Christian that's all. I have no axe to grind with you personally. I do think it is unfortunate that your plan to keep quiet and take the abuse has resulted in the choice you have made to chuck everything. Just an observation but it seems from reading here that many, but not all that have made the same decision also had a similar plan to yours. From that ending I can conclude that those plans did not work to further the lifestyle that we all said we wanted to /or were living ,of keeping the scripture first in our lives. I can conclude that speaking up with scripture at that point would have rendered a better result, at least in the person speaking. While it is true it may not have changed things in the way ,that person would have walked away with a different perspective rather than feeling silenced they could have walked away knowing that they did the best they could to remedy the situation with truth. And that has made all the difference in posting perspectives In My Opinion. I can make this observation from the facts you presented not from knowing you or a personal opinion of you. That you failed to stand up and speak in the situation is not in question by your own admission you did not, why you did not remains to be seen. I offered comment on what we all should have done in accordance with what we were saying that we were doing while in the way. Generally they should be the same thing if honest.
I mostly agree with WD's comments here. If I can help someone by knowing the answer to their need, then I absolutely want to. How I know the answer might be that I just know it from past studies, or it might be that I start researching and studying it when the need comes up. Or it might just be from revelation.
The original post said something about 97% of the answers to peoples questions, I might know 3% off the top of my head, but that's probably a high estimate. But I do believe that when I need to know something, God will make sure that I have the opportuinity.
On the other hand, there's a quote from (I think) Rev. John Nessle that sort of fits this context: "I'd rather love than know".
I think that was where TWI dropped the ball: loving. I still believe that TWI knows a LOT of scripture and that they, at least some times, apply it correctly. Where I think the problem is, is that they don't do it in love. At least not as much as they should.
You can speak the true and accurate word till you're blue in the face, if it's not rightly divided and it's not spoken in love then it probably won't do much good for anybody.
Matthew 4:6
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their]hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psalms 91:11-12
For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
They shall bear thee up in [their]hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
The DEVIL quoted scripture at Jesus Christ. Was the quotation accurate? Sort of. Was it rightly divided and spoken in love? Absolutely not.
It's worth noting how Jesus refuted that too: with accurate Word.
I guess that's not that great of an example of speaking the word in love. That's more of an example of what not to do. A better one might be the John 8 record ("He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn008.html ) but I think you get the idea I was going for.
Anyway, back to the original question, do I find that the answers are simple and easy? Usually not. Usually it takes work. But I enjoy the work. (There's plenty of verses about enjoying your work too.) And the answers are often clear after some studying. Like I said, if I need to know, I believe that God will make sure I have the opportunity.
I think that was where TWI dropped the ball: loving. I still believe that TWI knows a LOT of scripture and that they, at least some times, apply it correctly. Where I think the problem is, is that they don't do it in love. At least not as much as they should.
You can speak the true and accurate word till you're blue in the face, if it's not rightly divided and it's not spoken in love then it probably won't do much good for anybody.
The DEVIL quoted scripture at Jesus Christ. Was the quotation accurate? Sort of. Was it rightly divided and spoken in love? Absolutely not.
Where I think the problem was - was they didn't use "the word" correctly at all... not because they weren't being loving - but because they were taught wrong wrong wrong. My friend was a great example. I know she thought she was loving me by being an absolute cow and talking about my "believing" with my dad.
You are right - there were less loving people than the ones that wanted to help.
All I disliked was when people thought (they still do this btw) I have a need and bug the crap out of me about it and try to help me even there is nothing there for them to fix and I've told them so. Their Jebus-signals were telling them otherwise I guess.
Sorry I just don't get why anyone took the abuse. I can only conclude that person did not make the scripture their own to the point of where none of those things moved them, the place where speaking and living the truth was more important than personal comfort. I realize that some peoples opinions have changed as of now but at the time I think its fair to say that most were of the mind of standing up for the scripture.
if you can only conclude one thing, you haven't put much effort into seeing things from other perspectives. perhaps it was only because I made the scripture my own that I was able to withstand what I did and come out alive. ever think of that? some people also died within the walls of twi. it would be callous indeed to state that they died because they didn't make the "word" their own. my "personal comfort" zone developed out of hopelessness. I was trapped. from then on, all I could do was look for a way to escape. it took years. now, go ahead and "admonish" me for feeling hopeless.
Potato - Your right I don't know you but having read some 2,000 of your posts I can say this They are your words ,and I can't remember any that said you took any personal responsibility in any of the situations that you spoke of. It is always the Way ,the Twig Coordinator, the Branch Coordinator the Limb Coordinator. your Ex, and on and on. While it may be true that had a part in the situation ,you did as well.
I tend to post in the "About the Way" section, and when I share my experiences, they are twi experiences. like I said before, I always put the responsibility for my problems on myself and only recently in the past year started to recognize the role these people played in my life. I don't feel obligated to always qualify my posts with "oh, and this is the role I played in it, this is where I was responsible". I'm still sorting out what I actually am responsible for beyond just being there, since I kind of had to be for all the crap to happen. oh, and not leaving a whole lot earlier... but hindsight is 20/20, yeah?
I don't know you or why the core teaching of the ministry that you were involved with did not reach you. But it is obvious from your response that it did not first in your plan to not speak ,and live comfortably and second in your total abandonment of scripture as posted "and it's the main reason I'm not Christian anymore" That the lifestyle of living according to scripture was not priority in both cases is clear by your response. It is a easy recognizable fact in your decision not to speak up and your decision to not adhere to Christian scripture period.
??? all I can say to this passage is WOW. apparently you didn't read some 2000 of my posts. your use of "total abandonment", "was not priority", "easy recognizable fact" are stunning in that they are not based on anything but your feelings. actually this whole passage is amazing, as it is a complete fabrication of my life based on your limited insight into it.
While it is true it may not have changed things in the way ,that person would have walked away with a different perspective rather than feeling silenced they could have walked away knowing that they did the best they could to remedy the situation with truth.
why do you assume I don't know that I did the best I could to remedy the situation?
That you failed to stand up and speak in the situation is not in question by your own admission you did not, why you did not remains to be seen.
you weren't there, so I wonder what makes you think you know I didn't stand up and speak? you say by my own admission, but why would I say (and indeed, where did I say) something so patently untrue? you're twisting words to give them a completely different meaning instead of reading what is written in order to justify your concept of biblical rightness.
Where I think the problem was - was they didn't use "the word" correctly at all... not because they weren't being loving - but because they were taught wrong wrong wrong. My friend was a great example. I know she thought she was loving me by being an absolute cow and talking about my "believing" with my dad.
You are right - there were less loving people than the ones that wanted to help.
All I disliked was when people thought (they still do this btw) I have a need and bug the crap out of me about it and try to help me even there is nothing there for them to fix and I've told them so. Their Jebus-signals were telling them otherwise I guess.
Yea, I think I understand what you're saying. Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons doesn't usually work out too well because it's still the wrong thing to do.
you weren't there, so I wonder what makes you think you know I didn't stand up and speak? you say by my own admission, but why would I say (and indeed, where did I say) something so patently untrue?
Ok Where
Qupte.......
what I learned in real life was that to survive as comfortably as possible, I should not disagree with what the leaders were teaching.
That pretty much says it all I wont disagree with what the leaders say, which means that one would not stand up and stand and speak......
Note the goal is for you to survive as comfortably as possible not concern for the integrity of the scripture despite personal discomfort like the records in the Bible.
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potato
I think we're not even close to being on the same page WD, but that doesn't surprise me.
you said I may have had deeper issues, and I explained what my deeper issue was. I wasn't referring, at that point, back to the question at the beginning of the thread.
this is where I take a different fork in the road, since I believe a lot of the process of making the scripture your own as learned in PFAL actually was PI and some man's opinion. PFAL was PI, vpw's PI based on other scholars' work. anyway, it mattered little as to what I made my own of the scripture and only the scripture; what I learned in real life was that to survive as comfortably as possible, I should not disagree with what the leaders were teaching. if I hadn't been married, it might have been a lot different. I would have got myself kicked out, no doubt, for disagreeing with the teachers :)
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potato
thanks for this thread, Imagine. I am enjoying it, even if some find it an opportunity to "reprove". I also can live with the tensions, because I just don't think anyone has all the answers. what's more important is that we question and think. both were discouraged in twi, so I'm having a pretty good time being able to do it. I have a whole lot fewer answers than I used to, and I'm ok with that.
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excathedra
hi imagine, thank you for the thread
i remember "saying" i had the answers and feeling guilty somewhere deep inside
in ways i felt like a little puppet trying to convince myself
i'm very glad those days are over
i was young, i know, and i thought "hungering" for answers
but i'm not sure now if that was it..... i think i might have been starving for love
does that make sense ?
you don't have to answer. i'm not looking for answers ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Ham
I dunno..
the questions people ask.. "who am I, really".. "what are we, really.."
I don't know if they know what they're asking for..
The "answers" you get may burn a few holes in you..
:)
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WhiteDove
I missed the scripture that said we were to survive as comfortably as possible in life . I don't see that in the life of the believers in scripture. I see plenty of uncomfortable situations for Jesus, Paul and others. Their example to speak the truth is ours to follow regardless of circumstances, I'm sure they could have had some reasons for not speaking up as well in their day. We have all at times failed, each day is a new one and we make adjustments. But if we never acknowledge that we had a part in where the situation ended up and write it off as someone else's fault in a nice package then we never get to the real solution to the problem. There were thousands of people who passed through the way and no shortage of jerks, and I understand that people in general want to be liked and all. But at the end of the day you either walk the talk or not. It's easy to say It Is Written tougher to live it. When the rubber met the road we all faced choices, me I felt I had to live with mine ,so jerks went by the wayside. That’s my POV yours differs........ so be it.
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Tom Strange
I'm glad you've got it all figured out WD. You're callousness never ceases to amaze me. :(
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potato
WD, your message, like so many I heard in twi, sounds scriptural, but you're drowning in your own righteousness. I've heard it all before and it's the main reason I'm not christian anymore. the more people profess to know, the less in reality they actually know that's useful. false teachers and false prophets and the devil himself can make scriptural arguments, but when it boils down to it, can you really help someone with that? without trying to understand their background and circumstances? you don't know what happened to me, or really anybody else, in twi, so how can you sit in judgment and pronounce that I'm wrong or that I'm not taking responsibility for being there? my problem was not that I didn't acknowledge my part in it, but that I didn't acknowledge the part others played in it until this past year. have you ever lived with a megalomaniac? or someone with a personality disorder? if so, I'd be really interested in your take on life in my shoes. otherwise, not really.
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Watered Garden
I'm not at all sure I'm right any more, but I do still have a lingering fear of being wrong.
Here are three answers I think are helpful.
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor.
3. Love yourself.
That's about all there is to it. The rest is gravy, and everyone makes gravy differently. If you like your gravy best, that's great. Just ask politely before you pour your gravy on another's meatloaf. They might like theirs better.
Okay?
WG
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potato
very wise words, WG! I like the analogy.
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Watered Garden
I guess what I'm trying to express is that your basic beliefs are just that - yours. If you like fundamentalism that's great. If I need to know a fundamentalist point of view on something, I'll be sure to ask. If you are a Presbyterian and believe in predestination, that's okay too. I don't but I'll respect your right to believe it, and I'll never call you "stupid" because I disagree.
Life's too short to being trying to cram some POV on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin down one another's throat. A month or so ago, a video class was run in our church adult Sunday school that some people loved, some people thought was mostly okay, some people thought was boring, and I had a severe emotionally allergic reaction to. I was so upset I ended up dropping out of the class. But that's me. Another guy mentioned later how wonderful he thought this video class was, and how it helped him realize he needed a deeper personal relationship with God. That's him.
Thankfully, no one tried to force me to believe I was wrong because I disagreed with some, actually a lot, of what this video was teaching as truth. Had that been in TWI, I would've have been soundly reproved at the first sign of doubt. If that didn't straighten me up, I would have been screamed at, then finally put on spiritual probation, then marked and avoided if I didn't conform pretty quickly. My questions would never have been answered because asking questions is a sign of unbelief.
Unfortunately, I think some of us still find ourselves promoting the self-righteous attitude that WE are right and the rest of the world is wrong. I'd rather get to personally know a loving God Whose son is His example of what to think, say and do as I live life to the fullest here and now, than try to prove how great I am - because that would be an impossible task for just about everyone, especially me.
WG
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Bumpy
WG, what some here might have forgotten is, it's about Karma Man, KARMA!
Throw Jesus away today, and tomorrow it's Buddha, or Cat Stevens, or a bottle of Jack. Or hey, maybe a new Avatar to go with those groovy cowboy boots! (Pass me that reeefer...) Just Love Baby Love!
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2007...4722583-ap.html
But be careful not to take that prophesy stuff too far! <_<
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Watered Garden
Bumpster,
We posted at the same time. My next post is right above yours. I should have included non-Christian points of view in that first paragraph, but I'm rushed and I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head.
WG
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chockfull
In general, no.
However, I have found easy answers in some categories. It just depends on the question. For example, if my wife asks me "Honey, will you do ______ for me?"
The easy answer is YES. In that scenario, NO is never an easy answer...
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potato
what a great deliverance story!!! you no longer have to discuss with leadership the spiritual ramifications of doing ______ for your wife to make sure you're not opening a door for satan, justify your decision in writing, follow up with your leadership with a written report on the results of your decision, or have to go to meetings if granting your wife's request makes leadership uncomfortable.
now you can just say "yes, honey!"
what freedom!
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Oakspear
WD, callous, drowning in his own righteousness? :huh: Sorry guys and gals, I don't see it.
These days when I see posts by those who still agree with what they were taught in PFAL I see folks who have just made a decision to go a different route than I did. To them, there are parts that are worth hanging on to. I disagree, but I don't ahve to live their lives and they don't have to live mine.
And Whitey, while, from an inerrant bible point of view, getting it right is important, and some might say crucial, I suspect that it was the "be right at the expense of the love of God" attitude that prevailed in some quarters that is the problem. Nothing wrong with being right, nothing wrong with shaking things up some of the time, but sometimes being right just isn't that important. An imperfect example might be that I believe that proper grammar facilitates good communication and that an extensive vocabulary enriches it. That doesn't mean that I'm going to correct my wife's grammar if she doesn't pronounce a word correctly. I think it's that level of nit picking that folks are talking about.
One thing that I noticed during my time in TWI (or rather see in retrospect): if a person was strong enough to withstand the crap, they often had an influence on those around them, especially if those around them were of like mind. A personal committment to God or to love those around them put up a kind of wall about them. They were like islands in the river of muck. It was when the scales tipped the other way (boy I am mixing my metaphors :B) ) that things got too bad to take and people left. It's why we have GSers who left at all different periods of TWI history, and it all seemed like the right time to each.
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potato
I don't have any problem with anyone embracing what they learned in pfal beyond my own opinion that most of the class was lame, but I really don't like people attempting to discern the cause of my problems when they don't know me or my situation. there were plenty of barely-veiled implications in WD's posts to me. the things that happened to me were not a result of any failure to make the scripture my own. far from it.
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TheHighWay
After giving it some more thought, I've realized that I had a quest to be RIGHT, not just out a fear of being wrong, but because I believed the Bible TOLD me I should be questing to be right in God's eyes (study to show thyself approved).
And after reading WD's comments, I've also realized that deep down, I do still quest to be right as much as possible. The difference is, I no longer think there is only ONE "right". And I no longer think that I am the only one who might come up with the best solution to any given situation. I am far more willing to have my eyes, ears, and heart open to the possibilities, rather than already having my mind made up about what I think is definitively right and definitively wrong.
One of twi's big mistakes was it fell into cookie-cutter theology and one-mold-fits-all practices. All corps on the field had to dial in to Craig's rantings in order to be like-minded, everyone needed to be completely out of debt, everyone had to be an advanced class grad, no one should have family pets, all marriages should be fashioned after Craig and Donna's, everyone had to listen to the SNS tapes and teach on them that week in fellowships.... I could go on and on and on...
I think that life is complex enough that what is right for one situation may be totally wrong for another. And while twi "SAID" that's what they believed, anyone who lived through it knows they certainly didn't practice it !!!
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Watered Garden
Well said, Highway!
I am so thankful my marriage is NOTHING like Craig and Donna's!!!!!
The likemindedness, what you so aptly called "cookie cutter theology" contradicted the "Biblical research" part, didn't it?
I completely agree with your post! (does that mean I'm right?")
WG
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WhiteDove
Oakspear- Agreed I have no qualms with the nit picking thing at the expense of the Love of God, there certainly was enough of that to go around. I guess I was looking at the "right" from a different direction a biblical one.
Everyone - This has nothing to do with self righteousness, the fact is we were involved with a ministry that was built on the standard of It Is Written and while arguably that may not have always been the case in every situation. (that's a argument for a different day.) It none the less was the core of the groups teaching. How many different ways did we hear it? The Word of God is the Will of God, Make the Word your own, God's Magnified Word, It Is Written, The Integrity of the Word and a whole long line of others. This was ministry 101 so to speak, starting in PFAL or before in Twigs. We were to make the scriptures a standard or reference point in life. It's like going through fifteen years of math classes and not understanding two plus two equal four. Anyone that spent more than fifteen minutes at the way should have got that. I suppose there were some that never took that seriously that never made the scriptures their rule of faith and practice ,that seems a foreign concept to me . Why would you be there if you did not want to live that kind of life? That's what they were offering why stay around if that was not what one was wanting?
Now assuming that everyone was now wanting this lifestyle due to the fact they were staying around and not only that but speaking and promoting it to others. I must admit I am amazed that when the rubber met the road that this concept somehow went out the window , Why anyone would not really out of automatic response almost, confront each situation with scriptural response. The concept of just "being comfortable" seems foreign to one who said they wanted to live a lifestyle of biblical standard. I'll insert here Yes - I got it! (face melting, fear of family, wanting to be loved, leaving a program and then rest) But then again going back to the lifestyle that we were wanting to adhere to . We would have seen that none of those things should have moved us from the truth of scriptures. When confronted with Bulls*** it seems that the response would be not to cower away but to respond with that which we had learned It Is Written. Sorry I just don't get why anyone took the abuse. I can only conclude that person did not make the scripture their own to the point of where none of those things moved them, the place where speaking and living the truth was more important than personal comfort. I realize that some peoples opinions have changed as of now but at the time I think its fair to say that most were of the mind of standing up for the scripture.
Potato - Your right I don't know you but having read some 2,000 of your posts I can say this They are your words ,and I can't remember any that said you took any personal responsibility in any of the situations that you spoke of. It is always the Way ,the Twig Coordinator, the Branch Coordinator the Limb Coordinator. your Ex, and on and on. While it may be true that had a part in the situation ,you did as well. Look you had a plan - to fade back and live comfortably despite what you professed you were doing while in the Way, which was speaking the truth and living according to scripture. Fine your choice, I think you see now it didn't work. What it did do was prolong the point where you had to make the choice that you were faced with in the first place, at your expense I might add with years of frustration built up inside of you from not speaking.
I don't know you or why the core teaching of the ministry that you were involved with did not reach you. But it is obvious from your response that it did not first in your plan to not speak ,and live comfortably and second in your total abandonment of scripture as posted "and it's the main reason I'm not Christian anymore" That the lifestyle of living according to scripture was not priority in both cases is clear by your response. It is a easy recognizable fact in your decision not to speak up and your decision to not adhere to Christian scripture period.
I made or make no comment on as to why that was your choice only that from facts that you presented that it was your choice. At this point I'll add this( before someone infers that is what I mean) ,being a non Christian does not make you a bad person it makes you a non Christian that's all. I have no axe to grind with you personally. I do think it is unfortunate that your plan to keep quiet and take the abuse has resulted in the choice you have made to chuck everything. Just an observation but it seems from reading here that many, but not all that have made the same decision also had a similar plan to yours. From that ending I can conclude that those plans did not work to further the lifestyle that we all said we wanted to /or were living ,of keeping the scripture first in our lives. I can conclude that speaking up with scripture at that point would have rendered a better result, at least in the person speaking. While it is true it may not have changed things in the way ,that person would have walked away with a different perspective rather than feeling silenced they could have walked away knowing that they did the best they could to remedy the situation with truth. And that has made all the difference in posting perspectives In My Opinion. I can make this observation from the facts you presented not from knowing you or a personal opinion of you. That you failed to stand up and speak in the situation is not in question by your own admission you did not, why you did not remains to be seen. I offered comment on what we all should have done in accordance with what we were saying that we were doing while in the way. Generally they should be the same thing if honest.
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Nathan Friedly
I mostly agree with WD's comments here. If I can help someone by knowing the answer to their need, then I absolutely want to. How I know the answer might be that I just know it from past studies, or it might be that I start researching and studying it when the need comes up. Or it might just be from revelation.
The original post said something about 97% of the answers to peoples questions, I might know 3% off the top of my head, but that's probably a high estimate. But I do believe that when I need to know something, God will make sure that I have the opportuinity.
On the other hand, there's a quote from (I think) Rev. John Nessle that sort of fits this context: "I'd rather love than know".
I think that was where TWI dropped the ball: loving. I still believe that TWI knows a LOT of scripture and that they, at least some times, apply it correctly. Where I think the problem is, is that they don't do it in love. At least not as much as they should.
You can speak the true and accurate word till you're blue in the face, if it's not rightly divided and it's not spoken in love then it probably won't do much good for anybody.
The DEVIL quoted scripture at Jesus Christ. Was the quotation accurate? Sort of. Was it rightly divided and spoken in love? Absolutely not.
It's worth noting how Jesus refuted that too: with accurate Word.
I guess that's not that great of an example of speaking the word in love. That's more of an example of what not to do. A better one might be the John 8 record ("He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn008.html ) but I think you get the idea I was going for.
Anyway, back to the original question, do I find that the answers are simple and easy? Usually not. Usually it takes work. But I enjoy the work. (There's plenty of verses about enjoying your work too.) And the answers are often clear after some studying. Like I said, if I need to know, I believe that God will make sure I have the opportunity.
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Nero
Where I think the problem was - was they didn't use "the word" correctly at all... not because they weren't being loving - but because they were taught wrong wrong wrong. My friend was a great example. I know she thought she was loving me by being an absolute cow and talking about my "believing" with my dad.
You are right - there were less loving people than the ones that wanted to help.
All I disliked was when people thought (they still do this btw) I have a need and bug the crap out of me about it and try to help me even there is nothing there for them to fix and I've told them so. Their Jebus-signals were telling them otherwise I guess.
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potato
if you can only conclude one thing, you haven't put much effort into seeing things from other perspectives. perhaps it was only because I made the scripture my own that I was able to withstand what I did and come out alive. ever think of that? some people also died within the walls of twi. it would be callous indeed to state that they died because they didn't make the "word" their own. my "personal comfort" zone developed out of hopelessness. I was trapped. from then on, all I could do was look for a way to escape. it took years. now, go ahead and "admonish" me for feeling hopeless.
I tend to post in the "About the Way" section, and when I share my experiences, they are twi experiences. like I said before, I always put the responsibility for my problems on myself and only recently in the past year started to recognize the role these people played in my life. I don't feel obligated to always qualify my posts with "oh, and this is the role I played in it, this is where I was responsible". I'm still sorting out what I actually am responsible for beyond just being there, since I kind of had to be for all the crap to happen. oh, and not leaving a whole lot earlier... but hindsight is 20/20, yeah?
??? all I can say to this passage is WOW. apparently you didn't read some 2000 of my posts. your use of "total abandonment", "was not priority", "easy recognizable fact" are stunning in that they are not based on anything but your feelings. actually this whole passage is amazing, as it is a complete fabrication of my life based on your limited insight into it.
why do you assume I don't know that I did the best I could to remedy the situation?
you weren't there, so I wonder what makes you think you know I didn't stand up and speak? you say by my own admission, but why would I say (and indeed, where did I say) something so patently untrue? you're twisting words to give them a completely different meaning instead of reading what is written in order to justify your concept of biblical rightness.
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Nathan Friedly
Yea, I think I understand what you're saying. Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons doesn't usually work out too well because it's still the wrong thing to do.
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WhiteDove
you weren't there, so I wonder what makes you think you know I didn't stand up and speak? you say by my own admission, but why would I say (and indeed, where did I say) something so patently untrue?
Ok Where
Qupte.......
what I learned in real life was that to survive as comfortably as possible, I should not disagree with what the leaders were teaching.
That pretty much says it all I wont disagree with what the leaders say, which means that one would not stand up and stand and speak......
Note the goal is for you to survive as comfortably as possible not concern for the integrity of the scripture despite personal discomfort like the records in the Bible.
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