It isnt Jonestown i keep in mind it is the group that was in WACO TEXAS that burned.
The FBI says the fire began INSIDE the house and it was most probably set, that is also a mass sucicide.
that story has always bothered me on many levels and a few did get out of the fire and live today and they still believe he was who he said he was as a prophet and live by his words.
never the less how it started they didnt leave, the reports i read about said they didnt want to leave and most where in one very large room and Knew it meant death again they stayed because they believed the teacher was telling them life was not worth living without him.
whenever anyone says that word "like he is wacko" i think of them.
I knew something was wrong withthe athletics of the spirit show, to this day , i have never seen it and i went to the rock the year it was released and they had tents playing on the tv's something in me deeep said no!
my kids saw it the coordinator played it for them at childrens fellowship. i never saw it.
it also was a gut reaction.. i do not think i missed much really. these days is choose not to analize my life to pieces id rather just live, then everything was under something as far as wrong or sinful or "off".
i still find it funny smoking never was a sin? I smoke and ithink it is a sin.
It's not a scam ya ninnys! Its the son of JP Wierwille, Victor Paul, the grandson of the VP we knew. He happens to be a committed Christian, and is interested in helping people with a ministry of some sort.
It's not a scam ya ninnys! Its the son of JP Wierwille, Victor Paul, the grandson of the VP we knew. He happens to be a committed Christian, and is interested in helping people with a ministry of some sort.
Well, if he's really interested in helping. He'd be better off by getting rid of his "GOALS" which he plagiarized from the 5 "Corpse Principles" of TWI and coming up with something from his heart..
And then to have the nerve to say, "Any volunteer may be dismissed at any time and/or program may be cancelled at the sole discretion of those charged with oversight." just leaves another open door for a new MOGFODAT to rule the roost..
He may have a desire to help, but rebuilding a new TWI is not going to do that! TWI was built around volunteers that served their overseers, and from his page, it looks like he's continuing in the same vein.
A real servant looks for ways to serve and give and leads only because his example is something others wish to emulate. Rather than looking to train their own recruits to believe their koolaid all the while forcing their views on their naive followers.
It's not a scam ya ninnys! Its the son of JP Wierwille, Victor Paul, the grandson of the VP we knew. He happens to be a committed Christian, and is interested in helping people with a ministry of some sort.
I dont know..
12 'students' X 4 hours a day of work X 7 days a week = 336 manhours/week of free work (Thats over 13,000 hours of work during their year)
in exchange for 4 hours a day of 'teaching X 7 days =28 hours of teaching
Id trade 4 hours of BS'ing "teaching" for 48 hours of free labor per day on my farm any day of the week if I could get away with it. Farms can be an overwhelming amount of work.
I dont know who exactly he is 'trying to help' or how in his 'committed christian' lifestyle but HE certainly is going to be doing a lot better at the end of every day.
Nice work if you can get it.
What do the 'students' get at the end of the year? an 8 1/2" X 11" 'diploma' that qualifies them to tithe back to the farm and bring in more people?
So having read the entire thing I have this question of Mr. OK City: Upon receiving such a vivid revelation what did you do with the information? Did you run away, did you dismiss it as too much rat poison in the kool-aid? What did you do with it?
I am not trying to attack you but I am wondering because of what twi taught concerning such "revelation". Where's the profit? Isn't that what we were taught? If you didnt try to change the vision into something good or could not change the vision then why were you given it? Kind of makes a person rethink everything twi taught concerning the manifestations.
I do not disbelieve anyone when they tell me that they got some revelation that manifested in a vision. But I am curious what a person does with such a vivid vision. It would have scared the daylights out of me.
Now as for Jonny's little "revelation" of that website...all I can say is "And the beat goes on..." Unbelievable.
On the other hand, if he really is trying to help some folks then I agree that he needs to dump the Corps principals and go with something a bit more from the heart and perhaps more "Spirit" minded. But I could be prejudice here.
Edited 'cause Swatratra took my ability to spell when she left...
(Sorry I couldnt find a spot for any spiders...but she'll do)
But if the guy has a pure heart, then his stated goals are simply fine. As long as he is honest before God and truly desires to help, what's the big deal?
And come on, what if you were running some sort of seminar and someone got out of whack and needed to get gone, then you have to ask then to leave. Simple. So you set up the standard ahead of time. Just like in a bar or restaurant where the little plaque on the wall says "we have the right to refuse service to anyone".
Man, this is awesome seeing you all getting worked up over this.
So having read the entire thing I have this question of Mr. OK City: Upon receiving such a vivid revelation what did you do with the information? Did you run away, did you dismiss it as too much rat poison in the kool-aid? What did you do with it?
I am not trying to attack you but I am wondering because of what twi taught concerning such "revelation". Where's the profit? Isn't that what we were taught? If you didnt try to change the vision into something good or could not change the vision then why were you given it? Kind of makes a person rethink everything twi taught concerning the manifestations.
I do not disbelieve anyone when they tell me that they got some revelation that manifested in a vision. But I am curious what a person does with such a vivid vision. It would have scared the daylights out of me.
Now as for Jonny's little "revelation" of that website...all I can say is "And the beat goes on..." Unbelievable.
On the other hand, if he really is trying to help some folks then I agree that he needs to dump the Corps principals and go with something a bit more from the heart and perhaps more "Spirit" minded. But I could be prejudice here.
Edited 'cause Swatratra took my ability to spell when she left...
(Sorry I couldnt find a spot for any spiders...but she'll do)
Hello, Eyes
I can't answer those questions for OCW but I can try to answer for myself.
When I had my "experience"( I'm not calling it revelation because I really don't know WHAT it was.), I didn't even know there was such a thing as revelation, etc., much less that it was supposed to have some sort of profit.
I had not taken PLAL yet. I had only gotten in the word maybe like a week or two before this.
I only started speaking in tongues maybe 2 or 3 days before this happened.
Stuff happened really fast back then!!!!
I got witnessed to, spoke in tongues( without being coached to do so), manifested in believers meetings(didn't know you were supposed to have a class so when the leader said,"Will someone-----", I did.) and then(after all this) took PLAF within about my first 3 or 4 weeks in the word.
Now, if it was revelation,( and, again, I'm not saying it was.) that kinda debunks the idea that you MUST SIT much before you can get revelation.
The first thing I did (the next day) was to present this to my local leader.
My leader told me it was unrenewed mind. I didn't even know what RM meant so he explained it to me.
I believed him but the image was so vivid, it was a lot of work to try to squelch the memory when I tried to lift VPW.
Another time, in this same time frame, I gave a word of prophesy in a believers meeting that went something like,"For, yea, people, thou art of------"(and I could sense myself about to say "Satan" but I pushed out the word "God".)
If you've ever done any acting, you know that once you "go up" on a line, you have to fight it every time you come to it after that. Likewise, I had to consciously FOCUS every time a similar phrase would come up in a TIP or prophesy for quite some time.
As I progressed in my time with TWI, it was brought to my attention that I probably was "entertaining devil spirits" when this stuff had happened because I was so new and didn't know how to renew my mind.
Well, crazy as it might seem, that answer seemed to make sense.
But it also caused two more things to happen. The first thing was that I felt a sense of guilt for having had these thoughts.
The second thing it did was to motivate me to burn all my bridges so I wouldn't be tied to a past that included these things.
In other words, it encouraged me to pursue a self deluded state of "renewed mind" so I could purge myself of this apparently "unclean" thinking.
Here I am, 35+ years later, still trying to understand what the heck really happened.
Maybe the discussion re: Victor Wierwille's new endeavor would best be suited to its own dedicated thread as it seems a bit off topic to the current discussion.
But if the guy has a pure heart, then his stated goals are simply fine. As long as he is honest before God and truly desires to help, what's the big deal?[
no "biggie" for me..
just.. that's three or four benefits of the doubt I handed to a half a dozen or more "well meaning" clowns before..
The page you linked to.. honestly, it looked not like a scam, but more like a joke.
The "residents" of the farm: a beat up truck, a couple of farm animals..
the subject line of my email "is this for real?"
If it indeed is the young character you refer to, the last I remember, he was heavily involved in an offshoot. What's he doing there? Starting another splinter of a splinter of a splinter?
Just another little thing that at least suggests to me.. if it ISN'T a joke, it SHOULD be..
In fact, Mr. Wierwille may wish to rethink much about his website:
Posting some information about himself and his qualifications for running a Christian leadership training program;
Who are the staff and/or the persons who are "charged with oversight";
What subjects they will be studying, who will teach these subjects, and what are their qualifications;
For that matter, what are the qualifications for those who want to enter this program? May anyone participate, regardless of denominational affiliation (I get this is a Christian ministry, so that's at least one (unspoken) qualification) or educational accreditation?
Is this program completely independent, or is it affiliated with some denomination or organization? If affiliated, how strong are its ties?
What are the expectations of this program for its participants after they finish the program (beyond the stated goals)? "Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest, and need." Whose concern? Whose interest? Whose need?
Why is he modeling his program (right down to a word-for-word statement of goals) after a similar program which was an amazingly spectacular failure, and laid the groundwork for untoward abuse?
There's a lot that's not said on this website that should be said, if he's interested in full disclosure. I know it says you can contact him for more details, but some of this should be front and center on the website.
Then again, this looks like a fairly new venture, and you have to start somewhere. And it may very well be as Jonny Lingo said: a guy who wants to serve God and help others serve, too. If he's cognizant of the lessons learned from his grandfather's effort, and determined not to repeat them, then good luck.
And, in the interest of full disclosure, I like the pictures of the place. Especially the sheep. They're so sheepy. :D
The very fact that we can't even tell if that is a parody site or not should speak volumes, uh, if anyone's paying attention.
And yes Jonny, I think it should be perfectly fine for people to be used and abused, just so long as the abuser has a "pure heart"...
And - assuming for a moment that the "Sowers" are on the level, just what IS it that the participants get out of the deal?
I mean, they've established that the "overseers" (Great term to use in Mississippi - of all places!) have the right to accept or reject anything the participants may or may not do (be ready to work "outside your comfort zone!" - HA!) or throw them out altogether. And they're not allowed to have pets or get married, or - on and on....
But WTF do the players get out of the deal?(!) I don't see ANY benefits mentioned, other than, I guess being taught the goals.
GOSH! Where do I sign?
He obviously didn't learn much from gramps. This is how it's done junior. Lure the marks in with SUGAR, THEN put the hammer down. Sheesh, this is "Cult Leader 101" stuff. You're not going to make the cut at this rate.
But if the guy has a pure heart, then his stated goals are simply fine. As long as he is honest before God and truly desires to help, what's the big deal?
And come on, what if you were running some sort of seminar and someone got out of whack and needed to get gone, then you have to ask then to leave. Simple. So you set up the standard ahead of time. Just like in a bar or restaurant where the little plaque on the wall says "we have the right to refuse service to anyone".
Man, this is awesome seeing you all getting worked up over this.
Wow. Not a one of us know anything about young VPW, and yet the assumptions are festering. Ya know, JP was either kicked out of The Way too, or, left because he was fed up with it, I can't remember the detail, but, I don't believe he was too happy about the way things in The Way were. But he is still a Christian believer, and maybe his son wants to keep on with the only thing he knows. If he is honest and wants to help people, God will help him and teach him. And if he is not, it will come to "nought". How about giving him the benny of the doubt? But nooooo! Let's just ASSume that Wierwille genes are vile and pernicious and that this young man is now the "son of satan" rising up to deceive the nations once again. Geez you guys, a number of you allow your minds to run so epiluo it's unbelievable...
And for those of you who no longer even believe in God anymore, of course you won't see any benefit in trying to become a spiritual person. You gave that up and are now happy not believing in all of that "God stuff". Looks like this new website has supplied a new place to "pile on", kind of like the CES threads...
Wow. Not a one of us know anything about young VPW, and yet the assumptions are festering. Ya know, JP was either kicked out of The Way too, or, left because he was fed up with it, I can't remember the detail, but, I don't believe he was too happy about the way things in The Way were. But he is still a Christian believer, and maybe his son wants to keep on with the only thing he knows. If he is honest and wants to help people, God will help him and teach him. And if he is not, it will come to "nought". How about giving him the benny of the doubt? But nooooo! Let's just ASSume that Wierwille genes are vile and pernicious and that this young man is now the "son of satan" rising up to deceive the nations once again. Geez you guys, a number of you allow your minds to run so epiluo it's unbelievable...
And for those of you who no longer even believe in God anymore, of course you won't see any benefit in trying to become a spiritual person. You gave that up and are now happy not believing in all of that "God stuff". Looks like this new website has supplied a new place to "pile on", kind of like the CES threads...
A simple statement of credentials and curriculum might do wonders to bolster confidence and credibility.
So having read the entire thing I have this question of Mr. OK City: Upon receiving such a vivid revelation what did you do with the information? Did you run away, did you dismiss it as too much rat poison in the kool-aid? What did you do with it?
I am not trying to attack you but I am wondering because of what twi taught concerning such "revelation". Where's the profit? Isn't that what we were taught? If you didnt try to change the vision into something good or could not change the vision then why were you given it? Kind of makes a person rethink everything twi taught concerning the manifestations.
I do not disbelieve anyone when they tell me that they got some revelation that manifested in a vision. But I am curious what a person does with such a vivid vision. It would have scared the daylights out of me.
Now as for Jonny's little "revelation" of that website...all I can say is "And the beat goes on..." Unbelievable.
On the other hand, if he really is trying to help some folks then I agree that he needs to dump the Corps principals and go with something a bit more from the heart and perhaps more "Spirit" minded. But I could be prejudice here.
Edited 'cause Swatratra took my ability to spell when she left...
(Sorry I couldnt find a spot for any spiders...but she'll do)
whoa! this is really getting to some people,what i did at the time at emporia kansas as vpw was telling us all about jonetown and how people thought the way was a cult(we laughed at it)how dumb the way a cult,at that time we just became stronger more committed,we stood together the whole musk ox thing! We drove back to okc and it was pretty quiet,felt like we had been bee stung in our head. However when i had this "flashback"that is what exactly that going back and it was not 1978 it was l992...i was trying to undo the web of cult teachings in a class about john l(PRECEPT MINITRIES KAY ARTHUR,outa chattanooga tn)it was warfare for those who believe in spiritual warfare(sorry for those who don't but i am writing this as MY experience.)so here it was 1992 ,i had 3 young children and trying to get all this crap straight in my head,i was attending a church at that time but inside i was still under WAY program stuff and wanted to believe jesus was God,then i had this flash back and all hell broke loose the details are kinda personal so i won't get it,...down the raod their were a couple a suicide attempts and hospitalizations,long long therapy and it was like pulling teeth.....now i am ESSENTAILLY NORMAL whatever that is...i have learned what didn't kill me made me stronger,how about you?
I gotta say that this is a crazy thread!
So having read the entire thing I have this question of Mr. OK City: Upon receiving such a vivid revelation what did you do with the information? Did you run away, did you dismiss it as too much rat poison in the kool-aid? What did you do with it?
I am not trying to attack you but I am wondering because of what twi taught concerning such "revelation". Where's the profit? Isn't that what we were taught? If you didnt try to change the vision into something good or could not change the vision then why were you given it? Kind of makes a person rethink everything twi taught concerning the manifestations.
I do not disbelieve anyone when they tell me that they got some revelation that manifested in a vision. But I am curious what a person does with such a vivid vision. It would have scared the daylights out of me.
Now as for Jonny's little "revelation" of that website...all I can say is "And the beat goes on..." Unbelievable.
On the other hand, if he really is trying to help some folks then I agree that he needs to dump the Corps principals and go with something a bit more from the heart and perhaps more "Spirit" minded. But I could be prejudice here.
Edited 'cause Swatratra took my ability to spell when she left...
(Sorry I couldnt find a spot for any spiders...but she'll do)
whoa! this is really getting to some people,what i did at the time at emporia kansas as vpw was telling us all about jonetown and how people thought the way was a cult(we laughed at it)how dumb the way a cult,at that time we just became stronger more committed,we stood together the whole musk ox thing! We drove back to okc and it was pretty quiet,felt like we had been bee stung in our head. However when i had this "flashback"that is what exactly that going back and it was not 1978 it was l992...i was trying to undo the web of cult teachings in a class about john l(PRECEPT MINITRIES KAY ARTHUR,outa chattanooga tn)it was warfare for those who believe in spiritual warfare(sorry for those who don't but i am writing this as MY experience.)so here it was 1992 ,i had 3 young children and trying to get all this crap straight in my head,i was attending a church at that time but inside i was still under WAY program stuff and wanted to believe jesus was God,then i had this flash back and all hell broke loose the details are kinda personal so i won't get it,...down the raod their were a couple a suicide attempts and hospitalizations,long long therapy and it was like pulling teeth.....now i am ESSENTAILLY NORMAL whatever that is...i have learned what didn't kill me made me stronger,how about you?
Okay then Oakspear, fair enough. And so, maybe it seems unfair for people to allow their minds to "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game", when they don't know anything about young VPWs motives, Greek word not even used. .
A simple statement of credentials and curriculum might do wonders to bolster confidence and credibility.
Would you agree to that much, Jonny?
Sure I can agree that it would be helpful, but not necessarily mandatory. No doubt, if you think about it, folks willing to be a part of this program probably are already affiliated with the young man running the program. At another site, he said that he had done a fellow laborers program with CFF, and no doubt the majority of participants will come from that body of believers, hence the lack of a necessity for a list of credentials. And by the way (no pun intended), I will now "paste" that which I just read at the SOWERS website:
For details or admissions information please contact
Victor Wierwille at victorpaul38@aol.com
And so, no doubt MORE INFORMATION can be found there. However, one could e-mail and simply ask instead of speculate, ya know?
And so folks, I can see this one heating up, and I have said my piece on it already. Peace be unto you, and may young Wierwille keep his heart pure before the Lord. If not, I'll leave it to God...
Oh, and here is JP and his sons from that other site. Oops, looks like I failed to post the pic. Anybody else want to try? Looks alot like 'ol VP don't he? And the boys are fine and handsome! Hope it all works out...
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pond
Ex i agree with you.
It isnt Jonestown i keep in mind it is the group that was in WACO TEXAS that burned.
The FBI says the fire began INSIDE the house and it was most probably set, that is also a mass sucicide.
that story has always bothered me on many levels and a few did get out of the fire and live today and they still believe he was who he said he was as a prophet and live by his words.
never the less how it started they didnt leave, the reports i read about said they didnt want to leave and most where in one very large room and Knew it meant death again they stayed because they believed the teacher was telling them life was not worth living without him.
whenever anyone says that word "like he is wacko" i think of them.
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pond
I knew something was wrong withthe athletics of the spirit show, to this day , i have never seen it and i went to the rock the year it was released and they had tents playing on the tv's something in me deeep said no!
my kids saw it the coordinator played it for them at childrens fellowship. i never saw it.
it also was a gut reaction.. i do not think i missed much really. these days is choose not to analize my life to pieces id rather just live, then everything was under something as far as wrong or sinful or "off".
i still find it funny smoking never was a sin? I smoke and ithink it is a sin.
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J0nny Ling0
It's not a scam ya ninnys! Its the son of JP Wierwille, Victor Paul, the grandson of the VP we knew. He happens to be a committed Christian, and is interested in helping people with a ministry of some sort.
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bfh
Yeah, VPW junior wants to start another Way Corps and call it by a different name - SOWERS.
Goals (from the SOWERS website):
To Fearlessly Pursue an Understanding in These Principles:
1. Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.
2. Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others.
3. Physical training making your body, the "vehicle" of communication of the Word, as vital as possible.
4. Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the Ministry.
5. Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest, and need.
Do these "goals" sound familiar to anyone else but me?
I wonder if the powers that be at TWI know about this?
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waysider
I'm not familiar with the program nor am I judging it, but the ad. could have easily been for Fellow Laborers 35 yrs. ago.
(Except for the work 4 hrs./study 4 hrs. part.)
We worked 8 hrs. at secular jobs and then 4 more at limb hq. in the evening.
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TrustAndObey
Well, if he's really interested in helping. He'd be better off by getting rid of his "GOALS" which he plagiarized from the 5 "Corpse Principles" of TWI and coming up with something from his heart..
And then to have the nerve to say, "Any volunteer may be dismissed at any time and/or program may be cancelled at the sole discretion of those charged with oversight." just leaves another open door for a new MOGFODAT to rule the roost..
He may have a desire to help, but rebuilding a new TWI is not going to do that! TWI was built around volunteers that served their overseers, and from his page, it looks like he's continuing in the same vein.
A real servant looks for ways to serve and give and leads only because his example is something others wish to emulate. Rather than looking to train their own recruits to believe their koolaid all the while forcing their views on their naive followers.
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mstar1
I dont know..
12 'students' X 4 hours a day of work X 7 days a week = 336 manhours/week of free work (Thats over 13,000 hours of work during their year)
in exchange for 4 hours a day of 'teaching X 7 days =28 hours of teaching
Id trade 4 hours of BS'ing "teaching" for 48 hours of free labor per day on my farm any day of the week if I could get away with it. Farms can be an overwhelming amount of work.
I dont know who exactly he is 'trying to help' or how in his 'committed christian' lifestyle but HE certainly is going to be doing a lot better at the end of every day.
Nice work if you can get it.
What do the 'students' get at the end of the year? an 8 1/2" X 11" 'diploma' that qualifies them to tithe back to the farm and bring in more people?
Yea ---nice work if you can get it..
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rhino
Maybe the mogfat attitude is a recessive triat that tends to skip a generation ... :o
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Eyesopen
I gotta say that this is a crazy thread!
So having read the entire thing I have this question of Mr. OK City: Upon receiving such a vivid revelation what did you do with the information? Did you run away, did you dismiss it as too much rat poison in the kool-aid? What did you do with it?
I am not trying to attack you but I am wondering because of what twi taught concerning such "revelation". Where's the profit? Isn't that what we were taught? If you didnt try to change the vision into something good or could not change the vision then why were you given it? Kind of makes a person rethink everything twi taught concerning the manifestations.
I do not disbelieve anyone when they tell me that they got some revelation that manifested in a vision. But I am curious what a person does with such a vivid vision. It would have scared the daylights out of me.
Now as for Jonny's little "revelation" of that website...all I can say is "And the beat goes on..." Unbelievable.
On the other hand, if he really is trying to help some folks then I agree that he needs to dump the Corps principals and go with something a bit more from the heart and perhaps more "Spirit" minded. But I could be prejudice here.
Edited 'cause Swatratra took my ability to spell when she left...
(Sorry I couldnt find a spot for any spiders...but she'll do)
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Bramble
Wow, that IS creepy. Right on the front page too--please the leaderdang of Gawd or yer out! Same ol' same ol'.
Good for educational purposes with my kids though. What to watch out for.
Ps. I love the new word leaderdang. Remoinds me of clang--big noise!
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J0nny Ling0
But if the guy has a pure heart, then his stated goals are simply fine. As long as he is honest before God and truly desires to help, what's the big deal?
And come on, what if you were running some sort of seminar and someone got out of whack and needed to get gone, then you have to ask then to leave. Simple. So you set up the standard ahead of time. Just like in a bar or restaurant where the little plaque on the wall says "we have the right to refuse service to anyone".
Man, this is awesome seeing you all getting worked up over this.
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waysider
Hello, Eyes
I can't answer those questions for OCW but I can try to answer for myself.
When I had my "experience"( I'm not calling it revelation because I really don't know WHAT it was.), I didn't even know there was such a thing as revelation, etc., much less that it was supposed to have some sort of profit.
I had not taken PLAL yet. I had only gotten in the word maybe like a week or two before this.
I only started speaking in tongues maybe 2 or 3 days before this happened.
Stuff happened really fast back then!!!!
I got witnessed to, spoke in tongues( without being coached to do so), manifested in believers meetings(didn't know you were supposed to have a class so when the leader said,"Will someone-----", I did.) and then(after all this) took PLAF within about my first 3 or 4 weeks in the word.
Now, if it was revelation,( and, again, I'm not saying it was.) that kinda debunks the idea that you MUST SIT much before you can get revelation.
The first thing I did (the next day) was to present this to my local leader.
My leader told me it was unrenewed mind. I didn't even know what RM meant so he explained it to me.
I believed him but the image was so vivid, it was a lot of work to try to squelch the memory when I tried to lift VPW.
Another time, in this same time frame, I gave a word of prophesy in a believers meeting that went something like,"For, yea, people, thou art of------"(and I could sense myself about to say "Satan" but I pushed out the word "God".)
If you've ever done any acting, you know that once you "go up" on a line, you have to fight it every time you come to it after that. Likewise, I had to consciously FOCUS every time a similar phrase would come up in a TIP or prophesy for quite some time.
As I progressed in my time with TWI, it was brought to my attention that I probably was "entertaining devil spirits" when this stuff had happened because I was so new and didn't know how to renew my mind.
Well, crazy as it might seem, that answer seemed to make sense.
But it also caused two more things to happen. The first thing was that I felt a sense of guilt for having had these thoughts.
The second thing it did was to motivate me to burn all my bridges so I wouldn't be tied to a past that included these things.
In other words, it encouraged me to pursue a self deluded state of "renewed mind" so I could purge myself of this apparently "unclean" thinking.
Here I am, 35+ years later, still trying to understand what the heck really happened.
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waysider
Just a thought----
Maybe the discussion re: Victor Wierwille's new endeavor would best be suited to its own dedicated thread as it seems a bit off topic to the current discussion.
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Ham
no "biggie" for me..
just.. that's three or four benefits of the doubt I handed to a half a dozen or more "well meaning" clowns before..
The page you linked to.. honestly, it looked not like a scam, but more like a joke.
The "residents" of the farm: a beat up truck, a couple of farm animals..
the subject line of my email "is this for real?"
If it indeed is the young character you refer to, the last I remember, he was heavily involved in an offshoot. What's he doing there? Starting another splinter of a splinter of a splinter?
Just another little thing that at least suggests to me.. if it ISN'T a joke, it SHOULD be..
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Kevlar2000
Some unintended (?) humor on the SOWERS site:
The caption, "Students Of the Word Equipped and Running to Serve" appears under a picture of an old, derelict pick-up truck rusting away in the field.
Mr. Wierwille may wish to re-think that particular advertisement for his program.
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In fact, Mr. Wierwille may wish to rethink much about his website:
Posting some information about himself and his qualifications for running a Christian leadership training program;
Who are the staff and/or the persons who are "charged with oversight";
What subjects they will be studying, who will teach these subjects, and what are their qualifications;
For that matter, what are the qualifications for those who want to enter this program? May anyone participate, regardless of denominational affiliation (I get this is a Christian ministry, so that's at least one (unspoken) qualification) or educational accreditation?
Is this program completely independent, or is it affiliated with some denomination or organization? If affiliated, how strong are its ties?
What are the expectations of this program for its participants after they finish the program (beyond the stated goals)? "Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest, and need." Whose concern? Whose interest? Whose need?
Why is he modeling his program (right down to a word-for-word statement of goals) after a similar program which was an amazingly spectacular failure, and laid the groundwork for untoward abuse?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a lot that's not said on this website that should be said, if he's interested in full disclosure. I know it says you can contact him for more details, but some of this should be front and center on the website.
Then again, this looks like a fairly new venture, and you have to start somewhere. And it may very well be as Jonny Lingo said: a guy who wants to serve God and help others serve, too. If he's cognizant of the lessons learned from his grandfather's effort, and determined not to repeat them, then good luck.
And, in the interest of full disclosure, I like the pictures of the place. Especially the sheep. They're so sheepy. :D
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cheranne
sins of the father passed down ehh break that freaking chain man.
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waysider
Has anyone considered that this web site might be someone fishing for GSC identities and e-mail addresses.
Not sayin' it is.
It's just a thought that crossed my mind.
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George Aar
The very fact that we can't even tell if that is a parody site or not should speak volumes, uh, if anyone's paying attention.
And yes Jonny, I think it should be perfectly fine for people to be used and abused, just so long as the abuser has a "pure heart"...
And - assuming for a moment that the "Sowers" are on the level, just what IS it that the participants get out of the deal?
I mean, they've established that the "overseers" (Great term to use in Mississippi - of all places!) have the right to accept or reject anything the participants may or may not do (be ready to work "outside your comfort zone!" - HA!) or throw them out altogether. And they're not allowed to have pets or get married, or - on and on....
But WTF do the players get out of the deal?(!) I don't see ANY benefits mentioned, other than, I guess being taught the goals.
GOSH! Where do I sign?
He obviously didn't learn much from gramps. This is how it's done junior. Lure the marks in with SUGAR, THEN put the hammer down. Sheesh, this is "Cult Leader 101" stuff. You're not going to make the cut at this rate.
You're welcome...
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happyheart
Not worked up at all. Just thought it was icky.
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J0nny Ling0
Wow. Not a one of us know anything about young VPW, and yet the assumptions are festering. Ya know, JP was either kicked out of The Way too, or, left because he was fed up with it, I can't remember the detail, but, I don't believe he was too happy about the way things in The Way were. But he is still a Christian believer, and maybe his son wants to keep on with the only thing he knows. If he is honest and wants to help people, God will help him and teach him. And if he is not, it will come to "nought". How about giving him the benny of the doubt? But nooooo! Let's just ASSume that Wierwille genes are vile and pernicious and that this young man is now the "son of satan" rising up to deceive the nations once again. Geez you guys, a number of you allow your minds to run so epiluo it's unbelievable...
And for those of you who no longer even believe in God anymore, of course you won't see any benefit in trying to become a spiritual person. You gave that up and are now happy not believing in all of that "God stuff". Looks like this new website has supplied a new place to "pile on", kind of like the CES threads...
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waysider
A simple statement of credentials and curriculum might do wonders to bolster confidence and credibility.
Would you agree to that much, Jonny?
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cheranne
whoa! this is really getting to some people,what i did at the time at emporia kansas as vpw was telling us all about jonetown and how people thought the way was a cult(we laughed at it)how dumb the way a cult,at that time we just became stronger more committed,we stood together the whole musk ox thing! We drove back to okc and it was pretty quiet,felt like we had been bee stung in our head. However when i had this "flashback"that is what exactly that going back and it was not 1978 it was l992...i was trying to undo the web of cult teachings in a class about john l(PRECEPT MINITRIES KAY ARTHUR,outa chattanooga tn)it was warfare for those who believe in spiritual warfare(sorry for those who don't but i am writing this as MY experience.)so here it was 1992 ,i had 3 young children and trying to get all this crap straight in my head,i was attending a church at that time but inside i was still under WAY program stuff and wanted to believe jesus was God,then i had this flash back and all hell broke loose the details are kinda personal so i won't get it,...down the raod their were a couple a suicide attempts and hospitalizations,long long therapy and it was like pulling teeth.....now i am ESSENTAILLY NORMAL whatever that is...i have learned what didn't kill me made me stronger,how about you?
whoa! this is really getting to some people,what i did at the time at emporia kansas as vpw was telling us all about jonetown and how people thought the way was a cult(we laughed at it)how dumb the way a cult,at that time we just became stronger more committed,we stood together the whole musk ox thing! We drove back to okc and it was pretty quiet,felt like we had been bee stung in our head. However when i had this "flashback"that is what exactly that going back and it was not 1978 it was l992...i was trying to undo the web of cult teachings in a class about john l(PRECEPT MINITRIES KAY ARTHUR,outa chattanooga tn)it was warfare for those who believe in spiritual warfare(sorry for those who don't but i am writing this as MY experience.)so here it was 1992 ,i had 3 young children and trying to get all this crap straight in my head,i was attending a church at that time but inside i was still under WAY program stuff and wanted to believe jesus was God,then i had this flash back and all hell broke loose the details are kinda personal so i won't get it,...down the raod their were a couple a suicide attempts and hospitalizations,long long therapy and it was like pulling teeth.....now i am ESSENTAILLY NORMAL whatever that is...i have learned what didn't kill me made me stronger,how about you?
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Oakspear
Wierwille's image of epiluo being likened to uncontrolled dogs is a misunderstanding of Bullinger's quotation of an extra-biblical Greek writer.
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J0nny Ling0
Okay then Oakspear, fair enough. And so, maybe it seems unfair for people to allow their minds to "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game", when they don't know anything about young VPWs motives, Greek word not even used. .
Sure I can agree that it would be helpful, but not necessarily mandatory. No doubt, if you think about it, folks willing to be a part of this program probably are already affiliated with the young man running the program. At another site, he said that he had done a fellow laborers program with CFF, and no doubt the majority of participants will come from that body of believers, hence the lack of a necessity for a list of credentials. And by the way (no pun intended), I will now "paste" that which I just read at the SOWERS website:
For details or admissions information please contact
Victor Wierwille at victorpaul38@aol.com
And so, no doubt MORE INFORMATION can be found there. However, one could e-mail and simply ask instead of speculate, ya know?
And so folks, I can see this one heating up, and I have said my piece on it already. Peace be unto you, and may young Wierwille keep his heart pure before the Lord. If not, I'll leave it to God...
Oh, and here is JP and his sons from that other site. Oops, looks like I failed to post the pic. Anybody else want to try? Looks alot like 'ol VP don't he? And the boys are fine and handsome! Hope it all works out...
http://api.ning.com/files/wnl-w6U7nP*anbZe...&crop=1%3A1
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