And do you know what's almost worse? The fact that NO ONE else (including Paw) thought that there was anything wrong with this scenario. Should this girl have to pay for the fact that you are ....ed off at her dad??? Think of how you would feel if someone did the same thing to YOUR son or daughter. Shame on all of you - you can take all of the shots you want at DG, JWS, the Theisens, JAL - they have consciously put themselves in the spotlight (and cross hairs, for some of you), but leave their families ALONE.
Your point re: the daughter is indeed a good one. The rest of your whining throughout this thread, however, is crap. DG, JWS, the Theisens, JAL are in the crosshairs, because they _put_ themselves in the crosshairs. God, I wish that some of you apologists would *grow a pair* and have the mitigated _gaul_ of holding your beloved leader's feet to the fire of responsibility! ... Yee gads, you sound like Mike/Oldies sometimes.
hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that?
as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?...........ces/stfi spends their followers financial support on three websites they run and own themselves..........and yet, none of them provide a discussion forum like this for their own followers!...........those sites are loaded with all sorts of writings, "teachings", tapes, cd's, podcasts, "events", etc., which promote ces/stfi and their "leaders"..........but nowhere do they provide any place for their followers to engage their own critical thinking skills, or encourage objective, analytical discussions regarding the doctrines and practices they proclaim as "biblically accurate truth"!..........they used to.........but that was abruptly discontinued when their "personal prophecy" doctrine and practices were being questioned by some of the more "vocal" followers who raised important and critical questions concerning the veracity of what their "leadership" was declaring as "truth"!...........evidently, such free-wheeling, open discussions do not effectively enhance the "group think" twi offshoots require in order to accomplish "god's will"!
personally, i'm tired of the excuses they make for not posting here themselves.............and just as tired of the "fly-by" posts their surrogates come up with in their desperate attempts to validate, expiate, rationalize, and justify some of the UTTER NONSENSE they foist upon us here at the spot, and the rest of the known universe!.......apparently it is beneath their "dignity", or their "godly calling" to discuss any thing with any "community" which does not wholeheartedly agree with what they preach and teach!..........or with any "community" which is not as "proud" of what they're doing and teaching as the founding president of twi would be!.........this thread provides several good examples of what i'm typing about.........
paradiseden posted, "As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).".........what is so unique or special about these "qualities"??..........they describe a large number of "christian ministers" who conduct themselves in the same manner as john s. all around the globe, without ever giving such conduct a second thought.......that's pretty much the way "christian ministering" is done in most christian churches!.......it's fairly obvious, that paradiseden must have had some experiences in twi, with "christian ministers" whose conduct was quite different, eh?......probaby some of the same ex-twi "christian ministers" who ran ces/stfi at one time!!......there have been a couple..........
so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace.
john schoenheit is, by all accounts, "a really good guy", and, he is a really good "bible teacher"............he's honest and forthright about what he believes and why he believes it.............he does'nt "come accross" as some ego-tripping ex-twi "leader"..........he seems "down-to-earth", and approachable.............he does nice weddings for folks...........and he enjoys the "seclusion" of camp vision, and hunting and fishing............
That's the whole point isn't it?
If he wasn't at least (publicly) a "good guy".. he would not garner much following, would he?
it might be an extreme comparison.. but even Capone wouldn't have "made it" to where he was at in the "organization" without befriending at least a few people..
I really think some are making the same mistake they made in the old organization: basing their judgement of character on persona..
the vicster could turn on the charm.. even loy, in rare moments..
This part of DWBH's post is one of the most shocking and disturbing things I've ever heard about John S. I used to know him. I worked with him on the Research Team 1984-86.
"...among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!!
Learning this makes today a very sad day for me...and I will email John myself...this is very scary.
WOW---with that directive from VPW, maybe that is part of the inspiration for John to write his own New Testament version. Quote from their website: [emphasis added]
This New Testament, the Revised English Version® (REV®), is the version that we are developing. We call it the REV because we are presenting a revised version of earlier English versions, primarily the American Standard Version of 1901 (ASV), which we have used as the base text for our work, modifying it when WE feel it is appropriate. Our goal is to eventually have an "essentially literal" translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today's English.
We think we can do that because we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one's theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology.
This sounds like it was written in a bubble...and a very self-serving one at that. This is scary to me---they only have themselves as reviewers.
I CANNOT believe that you thought it was ok to FOLLOW a car for nearly 5 miles and then pepper the driver with questions. What gives you the right to accost a total stranger just because he/she has a Truth Or Tradition bumper sticker on his/her car?? You insinuate in your post that DG's daughter (who's name you have NO RIGHT using here - I am sending a note to Paw demanding that it be edited out) was playing dumb....well guess what: SHE WASN'T!!! She only recently moved back to the area and has almost NO involvement with STF....apart from being DG's daughter, that is. So, in your arrogance and anger you not only violated the privacy of a total stranger (and greatly scared and upset her, I may add), but then add a snide post here insinuating that she was either deliberately misleading you or <gasp> clueless about the situation (and you doubted the latter). Well, I hope you're proud of yourself, but she does not know the dirty little secrets hiding in the STF closet - she is just an unfortunate soul who was unlucky enough to drive in front of someone with a huge chip in his shoulder and an obvious lack of decency.
And do you know what's almost worse? The fact that NO ONE else (including Paw) thought that there was anything wrong with this scenario.
Bull
What a pile of crap--The woman had a bumper sticker on her car. What on earth is that for other than to advertise and to invite questions?
Thats what the thing is for
I suppose that YOU wouldnt be quite so irrationally p*ssed off, if someone had followed to ask her, Where is your fellowship? How do I get involved? or where can I give my money?
Just so happens that dmiller had some honest questions and didnt want that same old song and dance.
The "decent thing to do" would have been to answer the questions and if she didnt know say " I dont know"
What is so hard about that?
To take an entirely innocuous situation and turn it around is nuts.
Why is CES so full of fear and loathing?
If anyone is owed an apology its dmiller for being raked over the coals by you for doing exactly nothing wrong--except for being completely honest which may just be way too much for anyone in CES to take as it is a completely foreign and seemingly forbidden concept
This New Testament, the Revised English Version® (REV®), is the version that we are developing. We call it the REV because we are presenting a revised version of earlier English versions, primarily the American Standard Version of 1901 (ASV), which we have used as the base text for our work, modifying it when WE feel it is appropriate. Our goal is to eventually have an "essentially literal" translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today's English.
We think we can do that because we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one's theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology.
Wow. . Who knew?. . Someone had better call the actual recognized world's leading biblical scholars and tell them to push over. . . . Robert Alter, James Dunn, Phillip J King, NT Wright, Daniel B. Wallace to just name a few off the top of my head. . . . . . you know. . . the guys who were NOT in a cult started by a "mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator ."
Guess people should chuck their brand new ESV bibles in favor of this one. . . that only had 95 of the world's leading scholars contribute. http://www.esvstudybible.org/
I always think to myself. . . what more can surprise me? Silly question.
The woman had a bumper sticker on her car. What on earth is that for other than to advertise and to invite questions?
As a woman, if some big, tall guy followed me for 5 miles and then approached me the minute I parked and started firing a bunch of questions at me, about ANYTHING, it would be intimidating, at the very least. I'd be a bit stand-offish in that situation, too.
From reading DMiller's posts for years. I'm confident that he meant no harm. But I don't think it was the right thing to do. That young woman had no way of knowing he meant her no harm, and I don't see why anyone would think she'd be obligated to answer his questions.
If Billy D is correct, she's only marginally involved. So for all we know, it wasn't even her car or her bumper sticker. Maybe she was driving her dad's car.
As a woman, if some big, tall guy followed me for 5 miles and then approached me the minute I parked and started firing a bunch of questions at me, about ANYTHING, it would be intimidating, at the very least. I'd be a bit stand-offish in that situation, too.
From reading DMiller's posts for years. I'm confident that he meant no harm. But I don't think it was the right thing to do. That young woman had no way of knowing he meant her no harm, and I don't see why anyone would think she'd be obligated to answer his questions.
If Billy D is correct, she's only marginally involved. So for all we know, it wasn't even her car or her bumper sticker. Maybe she was driving her dad's car.
without commenting on "right" or "wrong".. isn't it at least INTRIGUING.. the the "opportunity" presented itself..
If I were those guys.. I'd tear the friggin bumper stickers off their high valued vehicles..
do you see where this is going?
if you INSIST on being that screwed up.. don't advertise it on your kid's car..for crying out loud..
the "opportunity" just might just present itself, in far less than such a harmless scenario..
Edited by Modgellan corrected the name the quote was attributed to
Your point re: the daughter is indeed a good one. The rest of your whining throughout this thread, however, is crap. DG, JWS, the Theisens, JAL are in the crosshairs, because they _put_ themselves in the crosshairs. God, I wish that some of you apologists would *grow a pair* and have the mitigated _gaul_ of holding your beloved leader's feet to the fire of responsibility! ... Yee gads, you sound like Mike/Oldies sometimes.
Hey Garth,
I really do appreciate your acknowledgment of my point re: DG's daughter. I was floored that no one said anything sooner. As for the rest of your post: I'm not sure what "whining" you're referring to - feel free to provide examples and I'll look them over and see if I agree. I usually only post here when I see something stated as fact that I know is NOT a fact, or to provide whatever background and personal experience I do have that may shed more light on a given topic. Example being my post on the JWS Corps grad topic regarding his history of learning with/from and debating with other Christian scholars. Frankly, it doesn't bother me that people here ask tough questions and demand honest answers. However, I AM bothered when I see things assumed or stated as fact that just flat out are not true. And please re-read my post: I am not whining about the leadership (and ex-leadership) of STF being in the spotlight/crosshairs. I completely agree that they've put themselves there, and therefore get to deal with the consequences. My issue was only with the fact that DG's daughter was "collateral damage," so to speak, and I apologize if it appeared otherwise.
Now, I can assure you I have a perfectly working "pair" and therefore do not need to "grow a pair" (I can show you pictures of my daughter as proof if you like http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif), so please do not assume that I am merely an "apologist" and won't hold the STF leadership's collective feet to the fire. Make no mistake: they are not MY leaders. I do not belong to STF. The ONLY "group" I belong to is the Body of Christ, and my ONLY leader is the Lord Jesus Christ. Period. I will not bow to or pledge allegiance to ANY man (or Board, for that matter).
"Well, I hope you're proud of yourself, but she does not know the dirty little secrets hiding in the STF closet -"
They aren't even open and honest with their own family members at home? :unsure:
....or perhaps she has a life of her own and doesn't care to get involved with every detail of her father's life. She's a grown woman with children and has much more to worry about than the nitty gritty of STF leadership squabbles.
....or perhaps she has a life of her own and doesn't care to get involved with every detail of her father's life. She's a grown woman with children and has much more to worry about than the nitty gritty of STF leadership squabbles.
That is true. She probably should lose the bumper sticker, or deny the relationship, whichever is easier.
FWIW, people used to put TWI bumper stickers on their car to call attention to the org. This was done in hopes of striking up a conversation, or providing a point of commonality. That's why most of us thought nothing of what dmiller did.
so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace.
Hey DWBH - just "flying by" again, and <whoa> answering questions! Stop the presses!
So here's the skinny: no, I don't consider myself a "member" of CES/STF. I worked in the office several years back, but have had a "real job" (please pardon the sarcasm - I worked hard to earn my wage(which was not large, by any means) while at CES and consider it a "real job") since then. I am personally not very "involved" these days, but mostly because I'm relatively newly married with a lovely little girl - THEY are my "ministry" right now. I don't believe in or agree with everything that is taught/practiced by CES/STF, but I do agree with a lot of it, particularly in regard to the trinity (or lack thereof), state of the dead, to what extend God is in control/responsible for what happens now, etc. While I believe wholeheartedly in the existence today of the manifestations of holy spirit (or gifts of The Holy Spirit, if you will), I do agree that prophecy in particular was mis-applied and abused, particularly by the Re*$@rs and KAG. I always felt that the CES/STF practice of "personal prophecy" was a bit like a Christian Psychic Friends Network; however, do I believe that I can pray for someone and get a word from the Lord for them? Yes. There have been many instances when individuals have come to me with words they believed were from the Lord and that I could bear witness to in my heart. Edification, exhortation, comfort - delivered in a "personal" way (meaning to me as an individual as opposed to a corporate body of believers), but still just plain ole prophecy in my book. Now, do I believe that this practice should involve "seeking a word" from a "prophet" so as to know what the Lord would say to me? No way. I seek the Lord, and sometimes He answers Himself, sometimes He answers through others. Finally, I don't totally or implicitly trust JWS, but I do respect his earnest love of God and his personal spiritual discipline. I admire his wealth of knowledge concerning OT history, antiquities, and orientalisms - but then again I'm a history geek, so go figure. I do trust his spiritual and intellectual judgment....to a point. I have been to many churches and heard many preachers, and in my personal experience his teaching aligns more with what I see and read in the Bible than any other. Again, my own observation and personal opinion.
Now, with that said, I would like to thank you for your first "bump," because in the 7 or so years I have known JWS I have NEVER heard him wax nostalgic about VPW, and would have obviously been concerned if he had made the same statement to me that he made to you. Certainly an agenda item for our next conversation.
Billy - my experience is that conversations in some things weren't overt. BTW, you worked your butt off when there, but they really didn't care to grow you in your heart's desire, and that is sad.
thanks for that very forthright and extensive reply! i appreciate it........and, heartfelt congratulations to you on your marriage and the birth of your first child! and also for making those the number one priority in your life these days!............imho, you can't go wrong by making and keeping your priority to spouse and children #1 in your life.......i wish you the greatest success in your family life, for it will be your finest achievement.
John made those comments and reminiscences to me in one of the conversations i had with him by phone while i was pursuing the answers to my questions on that thread i started on 10/01/2007 addressed to jalvis and jeff blackburn. i remember he was driving home from some ces event in michigan while talking to me on his cellphone. i was honestly quite taken aback by his comments regarding the motorcoach conversation he had with vic concerning his (john's) biblical research future...........that's why it still stands out in my mind so vividly today. And, we're all pretty familiar with the john lynn diatribes stating how proud der vicster would be of all his ces/stf kids and the great work they're doing. that letter is still floating around in cyberspace! it lies at the core of my distrust and disagreement with ces/stf doctrine and practice on many christian and theological issues. to mention wierweille and any genuine, legitimate biblical scholarship in the same sentence is to me, oxymoronic!...............but, that's just me.................peace to you and yours!
Hi I decided to take the time and answer a couple of questions on this forum that I believe I can help answer. I have been connected to STF for a long time, served on the Finance Committee and been a volunteer at some events and conferences.
Concerning the question from Whatsgoingon "Who are the Council of Elders?" or as some refer to as the "14."
This summer, fourteen long time supporters of STF/CES, many have been around for more than 15 years, heard that John Lynn had been fired. Because they were concerned there was going to be another possible split in CES/STF, they formed what was later referred to as the "Council of Elders" in an attempt to keep this split from happening.
After many conference calls and a discussion with the Board of Directors of STF and JAL, it became clear we were not going to be able to keep this split from happening. The Board of Directors of STF did not like it that we had formed this council, and as a result, our opportunity to help was greatly discouraged.
Concerning Don't Worry Be Happy......I will try to answer your questions since you mentioned me by name.
1) "Why do you trust Schoenheits spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?"
This question covers a wide area of topics. Let me answer that question with one biblical scripture although I could provide others: 1Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good." I look at most biblical teaching and "spiritual and intellectual judgement" from this perspective. In CES/STF, managing my business and living my life, this is a very good biblical principle to follow. There are teachings in STF I do not agree with (for example: some use of personal prophecy) as there were teachings in the Way I did not agree with. However,as an example, John Schoenheit's book on "The Christian's Hope" is fabulous and The Way's teaching on the mystery/sacred secret was incredible and changed my life.
2)"Do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?" I believe I answered that question with my answer above.
3)"Are you members?" I am a "member" of the One Body, the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ as the head talked about in I Corinthians 12:12-27. Jesus Christ said "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20 KJV).
4)"Are his (John Schoenheit) spiritual and intellectual judgements among the "qualities" you admire?" Some I admire and some I don't. I am sure some people have those same thoughts and/or opinions about me. And before you ask me, there isn't any reason to elaborate further than that (laughing....as my wife could provide extensive detail).
5)"Are his spiritual and intellectual judgements among a few of the reasons why he is the current president of CES?" I would hope that any president of any Christian organization would have spiritual and intellectual reasons why they are in a position of influence and giving guidance to any Christian organization.
6)"Maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly by" missions......" Don't Worry Be Happy......that comment gave me a good laugh and I enjoy your sense of humor and because you HAVE a sense of humor, I decided to respond to your questions. That was great and it made me smile and laugh, so thanks for that!
This summer, fourteen long time supporters of STF/CES, many have been around for more than 15 years, heard that John Lynn had been fired. Because they were concerned there was going to be another possible split in CES/STF, they formed what was later referred to as the "Council of Elders" in an attempt to keep this split from happening.
After many conference calls and a discussion with the Board of Directors of STF and JAL, it became clear we were not going to be able to keep this split from happening. The Board of Directors of STF did not like it that we had formed this council, and as a result, our opportunity to help was greatly discouraged.
The Board of Directors of STF did not like it that we had formed this council, and as a result, our opportunity to help was greatly discouraged.
JAL was fired in January, but the 14 long-time financial supporters only heard about it in the summer??
I think this is the issue many of us have with STF/CES---so many decisions made among themselves with nothing more than an announcement afterwards. People who give money continually through the years are just supposed to trust their decision and have no input.
They say we are a Christian family, but they operate like a business---everything is a business decision. If they were set up more like a family structure where everyone could have a voice prior to decision making, at least people wouldn't feel so blind-sided all the time.
I will say that I'm not necessarily a JAL supporter; I just take this to a higher level of principle. Which is why I join "groups" no more. I'm tired of being told, "We've made this decision in the "best interest of the people." What they are really saying is, "You have no voice!"
Well what do you know - - - I come back to this thread after posting on it (about) 6 days ago about a mere bumper sticker and my interest in what was going on with CES/STF,
and to my COMPLETE surprise find the firestorm that ensued as a result of my telling you all the story. Maybe I should have worded it better.
In order to NOT further detract from this thread, look for a new topic on the subject. Thank you. :)
I think of all the documents I have read regarding CES/STFI, Bob Maffit's letter saddened me the most. DWBH asked me and others why I hold JWS in high regard. I don't remember all of what I posted before, but I do remember speaking of John's character.
Someone can have high character and still be a poor leader. I believe one of John's weakness has always been a strong, many times misplaced, sense of loyalty to a small group of people that didn't always have his best, or the ministry's best, intentions at heart. For many years he trusted JAL and MG and now that they are gone, his loyalty has gone to DG. I know very little personally about DG, since I left before he really came to power, but the board seemed to be very happy to have lots of time and money to throw their way.
I was very happy to be involved with CES for a few years, but after a while, I think KG tried to "test" me with a couple of personal prophecies to see how far I'd bite and go along with the "word". I didn't bite, but said I'd have to give it some time and see if it rang true in my heart. It didn't, and she just kind of moved on.
I was also very saddened to hear about the Carlsons. I enjoyed spending time with Sue, and I'm so sorry she's been hurt, not only by a ministry, but by family as well. She's a very sharp individual, and anybody who wouldn't pay attention when she brings up an issue, would do so at their own downfall.
I'm so sorry it's gone downhill, but I am so thankful I'm not involved anymore. However, I haven't left without taking a deep mistrust of Christians and ministries with me.
JWS is a wonderful person as long as you serve a purpose.
He was in complete agreement when it came to shutting his sister out, and HONESTLY felt she should understand. He discarded a 16 year friendship with me and never looked back.
His idea of how women should function in marriage was pure dark ages.
He may be legally in charge, but I sincerely doubt if he has any idea what goes on day-to-day, and he doesn't care - unless it causes him a problem.
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DontWorryBeHappy
bump #2 hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apolo
dmiller
Thanks for that Factfinder. I kinda got the same impression (again) just last week when I was in Bloomington, Indiana for an extended stay there. While driving through town, a Jeep passed me ( a NIC
DontWorryBeHappy
bump..... hi all you fellow greasespotters!.............it's been awhile since i've posted here in the ces forum..............but, this topic caught my attention, since i spent a good deal of time tr
GarthP2000
Billy D,
Your point re: the daughter is indeed a good one. The rest of your whining throughout this thread, however, is crap. DG, JWS, the Theisens, JAL are in the crosshairs, because they _put_ themselves in the crosshairs.
God, I wish that some of you apologists would *grow a pair* and have the mitigated _gaul_ of holding your beloved leader's feet to the fire of responsibility! ... Yee gads, you sound like Mike/Oldies sometimes. 
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DontWorryBeHappy
bump #2
hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that?
as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?...........ces/stfi spends their followers financial support on three websites they run and own themselves..........and yet, none of them provide a discussion forum like this for their own followers!...........those sites are loaded with all sorts of writings, "teachings", tapes, cd's, podcasts, "events", etc., which promote ces/stfi and their "leaders"..........but nowhere do they provide any place for their followers to engage their own critical thinking skills, or encourage objective, analytical discussions regarding the doctrines and practices they proclaim as "biblically accurate truth"!..........they used to.........but that was abruptly discontinued when their "personal prophecy" doctrine and practices were being questioned by some of the more "vocal" followers who raised important and critical questions concerning the veracity of what their "leadership" was declaring as "truth"!...........evidently, such free-wheeling, open discussions do not effectively enhance the "group think" twi offshoots require in order to accomplish "god's will"!
personally, i'm tired of the excuses they make for not posting here themselves.............and just as tired of the "fly-by" posts their surrogates come up with in their desperate attempts to validate, expiate, rationalize, and justify some of the UTTER NONSENSE they foist upon us here at the spot, and the rest of the known universe!.......apparently it is beneath their "dignity", or their "godly calling" to discuss any thing with any "community" which does not wholeheartedly agree with what they preach and teach!..........or with any "community" which is not as "proud" of what they're doing and teaching as the founding president of twi would be!.........this thread provides several good examples of what i'm typing about.........
paradiseden posted, "As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).".........what is so unique or special about these "qualities"??..........they describe a large number of "christian ministers" who conduct themselves in the same manner as john s. all around the globe, without ever giving such conduct a second thought.......that's pretty much the way "christian ministering" is done in most christian churches!.......it's fairly obvious, that paradiseden must have had some experiences in twi, with "christian ministers" whose conduct was quite different, eh?......probaby some of the same ex-twi "christian ministers" who ran ces/stfi at one time!!......there have been a couple..........
so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace.
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Rejoice
Billy D said...
"Well, I hope you're proud of yourself, but she does not know the dirty little secrets hiding in the STF closet -"
They aren't even open and honest with their own family members at home? :unsure:
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Ham
That's the whole point isn't it?
If he wasn't at least (publicly) a "good guy".. he would not garner much following, would he?
it might be an extreme comparison.. but even Capone wouldn't have "made it" to where he was at in the "organization" without befriending at least a few people..
I really think some are making the same mistake they made in the old organization: basing their judgement of character on persona..
the vicster could turn on the charm.. even loy, in rare moments..
some of you guys have been "played"..
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penworks
This part of DWBH's post is one of the most shocking and disturbing things I've ever heard about John S. I used to know him. I worked with him on the Research Team 1984-86.
"...among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!!
Learning this makes today a very sad day for me...and I will email John myself...this is very scary.
Charlene
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Rejoice
WOW---with that directive from VPW, maybe that is part of the inspiration for John to write his own New Testament version. Quote from their website: [emphasis added]
This New Testament, the Revised English Version® (REV®), is the version that we are developing. We call it the REV because we are presenting a revised version of earlier English versions, primarily the American Standard Version of 1901 (ASV), which we have used as the base text for our work, modifying it when WE feel it is appropriate. Our goal is to eventually have an "essentially literal" translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today's English.
We think we can do that because we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one's theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology.
This sounds like it was written in a bubble...and a very self-serving one at that. This is scary to me---they only have themselves as reviewers.
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waysider
'nother case of "My dog's bigger than yours."
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mstar1
Bull
What a pile of crap--The woman had a bumper sticker on her car. What on earth is that for other than to advertise and to invite questions?
Thats what the thing is for
I suppose that YOU wouldnt be quite so irrationally p*ssed off, if someone had followed to ask her, Where is your fellowship? How do I get involved? or where can I give my money?
Just so happens that dmiller had some honest questions and didnt want that same old song and dance.
The "decent thing to do" would have been to answer the questions and if she didnt know say " I dont know"
What is so hard about that?
To take an entirely innocuous situation and turn it around is nuts.
Why is CES so full of fear and loathing?
If anyone is owed an apology its dmiller for being raked over the coals by you for doing exactly nothing wrong--except for being completely honest which may just be way too much for anyone in CES to take as it is a completely foreign and seemingly forbidden concept
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geisha779
Wow. . Who knew?. . Someone had better call the actual recognized world's leading biblical scholars and tell them to push over. . . . Robert Alter, James Dunn, Phillip J King, NT Wright, Daniel B. Wallace to just name a few off the top of my head. . . . . . you know. . . the guys who were NOT in a cult started by a "mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator ."
Guess people should chuck their brand new ESV bibles in favor of this one. . . that only had 95 of the world's leading scholars contribute. http://www.esvstudybible.org/
I always think to myself. . . what more can surprise me? Silly question.
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Linda Z
MStar said:
As a woman, if some big, tall guy followed me for 5 miles and then approached me the minute I parked and started firing a bunch of questions at me, about ANYTHING, it would be intimidating, at the very least. I'd be a bit stand-offish in that situation, too.
From reading DMiller's posts for years. I'm confident that he meant no harm. But I don't think it was the right thing to do. That young woman had no way of knowing he meant her no harm, and I don't see why anyone would think she'd be obligated to answer his questions.
If Billy D is correct, she's only marginally involved. So for all we know, it wasn't even her car or her bumper sticker. Maybe she was driving her dad's car.
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Tzaia
On more than one occasion I've asked where the head was.
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Ham
without commenting on "right" or "wrong".. isn't it at least INTRIGUING.. the the "opportunity" presented itself..
If I were those guys.. I'd tear the friggin bumper stickers off their high valued vehicles..
do you see where this is going?
if you INSIST on being that screwed up.. don't advertise it on your kid's car..for crying out loud..
the "opportunity" just might just present itself, in far less than such a harmless scenario..
Edited by Modgellancorrected the name the quote was attributed to
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Billy D
Hey Garth,
I really do appreciate your acknowledgment of my point re: DG's daughter. I was floored that no one said anything sooner. As for the rest of your post: I'm not sure what "whining" you're referring to - feel free to provide examples and I'll look them over and see if I agree. I usually only post here when I see something stated as fact that I know is NOT a fact, or to provide whatever background and personal experience I do have that may shed more light on a given topic. Example being my post on the JWS Corps grad topic regarding his history of learning with/from and debating with other Christian scholars. Frankly, it doesn't bother me that people here ask tough questions and demand honest answers. However, I AM bothered when I see things assumed or stated as fact that just flat out are not true. And please re-read my post: I am not whining about the leadership (and ex-leadership) of STF being in the spotlight/crosshairs. I completely agree that they've put themselves there, and therefore get to deal with the consequences. My issue was only with the fact that DG's daughter was "collateral damage," so to speak, and I apologize if it appeared otherwise.
Now, I can assure you I have a perfectly working "pair" and therefore do not need to "grow a pair" (I can show you pictures of my daughter as proof if you like http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif), so please do not assume that I am merely an "apologist" and won't hold the STF leadership's collective feet to the fire. Make no mistake: they are not MY leaders. I do not belong to STF. The ONLY "group" I belong to is the Body of Christ, and my ONLY leader is the Lord Jesus Christ. Period. I will not bow to or pledge allegiance to ANY man (or Board, for that matter).
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Billy D
....or perhaps she has a life of her own and doesn't care to get involved with every detail of her father's life. She's a grown woman with children and has much more to worry about than the nitty gritty of STF leadership squabbles.
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Tzaia
That is true. She probably should lose the bumper sticker, or deny the relationship, whichever is easier.
FWIW, people used to put TWI bumper stickers on their car to call attention to the org. This was done in hopes of striking up a conversation, or providing a point of commonality. That's why most of us thought nothing of what dmiller did.
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Ham
soo.. why does she have a stffi bumper sticker on the back of a vehicle..
If I didn't want to be involved with the drama, the intrigue.. the strife, the division.. the ungodliness..
personally.. as a "grown adult".. the LAST thing I'd want is.. to have their advertisement on my vehicle..
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Billy D
Hey DWBH - just "flying by" again, and <whoa> answering questions! Stop the presses!
So here's the skinny: no, I don't consider myself a "member" of CES/STF. I worked in the office several years back, but have had a "real job" (please pardon the sarcasm - I worked hard to earn my wage(which was not large, by any means) while at CES and consider it a "real job") since then. I am personally not very "involved" these days, but mostly because I'm relatively newly married with a lovely little girl - THEY are my "ministry" right now. I don't believe in or agree with everything that is taught/practiced by CES/STF, but I do agree with a lot of it, particularly in regard to the trinity (or lack thereof), state of the dead, to what extend God is in control/responsible for what happens now, etc. While I believe wholeheartedly in the existence today of the manifestations of holy spirit (or gifts of The Holy Spirit, if you will), I do agree that prophecy in particular was mis-applied and abused, particularly by the Re*$@rs and KAG. I always felt that the CES/STF practice of "personal prophecy" was a bit like a Christian Psychic Friends Network; however, do I believe that I can pray for someone and get a word from the Lord for them? Yes. There have been many instances when individuals have come to me with words they believed were from the Lord and that I could bear witness to in my heart. Edification, exhortation, comfort - delivered in a "personal" way (meaning to me as an individual as opposed to a corporate body of believers), but still just plain ole prophecy in my book. Now, do I believe that this practice should involve "seeking a word" from a "prophet" so as to know what the Lord would say to me? No way. I seek the Lord, and sometimes He answers Himself, sometimes He answers through others. Finally, I don't totally or implicitly trust JWS, but I do respect his earnest love of God and his personal spiritual discipline. I admire his wealth of knowledge concerning OT history, antiquities, and orientalisms - but then again I'm a history geek, so go figure. I do trust his spiritual and intellectual judgment....to a point. I have been to many churches and heard many preachers, and in my personal experience his teaching aligns more with what I see and read in the Bible than any other. Again, my own observation and personal opinion.
Now, with that said, I would like to thank you for your first "bump," because in the 7 or so years I have known JWS I have NEVER heard him wax nostalgic about VPW, and would have obviously been concerned if he had made the same statement to me that he made to you. Certainly an agenda item for our next conversation.
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Tzaia
Billy - my experience is that conversations in some things weren't overt. BTW, you worked your butt off when there, but they really didn't care to grow you in your heart's desire, and that is sad.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Billy D!
thanks for that very forthright and extensive reply! i appreciate it........and, heartfelt congratulations to you on your marriage and the birth of your first child! and also for making those the number one priority in your life these days!............imho, you can't go wrong by making and keeping your priority to spouse and children #1 in your life.......i wish you the greatest success in your family life, for it will be your finest achievement.
John made those comments and reminiscences to me in one of the conversations i had with him by phone while i was pursuing the answers to my questions on that thread i started on 10/01/2007 addressed to jalvis and jeff blackburn. i remember he was driving home from some ces event in michigan while talking to me on his cellphone. i was honestly quite taken aback by his comments regarding the motorcoach conversation he had with vic concerning his (john's) biblical research future...........that's why it still stands out in my mind so vividly today. And, we're all pretty familiar with the john lynn diatribes stating how proud der vicster would be of all his ces/stf kids and the great work they're doing. that letter is still floating around in cyberspace! it lies at the core of my distrust and disagreement with ces/stf doctrine and practice on many christian and theological issues. to mention wierweille and any genuine, legitimate biblical scholarship in the same sentence is to me, oxymoronic!...............but, that's just me.................peace to you and yours!
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Paradiseden
Hi I decided to take the time and answer a couple of questions on this forum that I believe I can help answer. I have been connected to STF for a long time, served on the Finance Committee and been a volunteer at some events and conferences.
Concerning the question from Whatsgoingon "Who are the Council of Elders?" or as some refer to as the "14."
This summer, fourteen long time supporters of STF/CES, many have been around for more than 15 years, heard that John Lynn had been fired. Because they were concerned there was going to be another possible split in CES/STF, they formed what was later referred to as the "Council of Elders" in an attempt to keep this split from happening.
After many conference calls and a discussion with the Board of Directors of STF and JAL, it became clear we were not going to be able to keep this split from happening. The Board of Directors of STF did not like it that we had formed this council, and as a result, our opportunity to help was greatly discouraged.
Concerning Don't Worry Be Happy......I will try to answer your questions since you mentioned me by name.
1) "Why do you trust Schoenheits spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?"
This question covers a wide area of topics. Let me answer that question with one biblical scripture although I could provide others: 1Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good." I look at most biblical teaching and "spiritual and intellectual judgement" from this perspective. In CES/STF, managing my business and living my life, this is a very good biblical principle to follow. There are teachings in STF I do not agree with (for example: some use of personal prophecy) as there were teachings in the Way I did not agree with. However,as an example, John Schoenheit's book on "The Christian's Hope" is fabulous and The Way's teaching on the mystery/sacred secret was incredible and changed my life.
2)"Do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?" I believe I answered that question with my answer above.
3)"Are you members?" I am a "member" of the One Body, the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ as the head talked about in I Corinthians 12:12-27. Jesus Christ said "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20 KJV).
4)"Are his (John Schoenheit) spiritual and intellectual judgements among the "qualities" you admire?" Some I admire and some I don't. I am sure some people have those same thoughts and/or opinions about me. And before you ask me, there isn't any reason to elaborate further than that (laughing....as my wife could provide extensive detail).
5)"Are his spiritual and intellectual judgements among a few of the reasons why he is the current president of CES?" I would hope that any president of any Christian organization would have spiritual and intellectual reasons why they are in a position of influence and giving guidance to any Christian organization.
6)"Maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly by" missions......" Don't Worry Be Happy......that comment gave me a good laugh and I enjoy your sense of humor and because you HAVE a sense of humor, I decided to respond to your questions. That was great and it made me smile and laugh, so thanks for that!
Gary Smith
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Rejoice
JAL was fired in January, but the 14 long-time financial supporters only heard about it in the summer??
I think this is the issue many of us have with STF/CES---so many decisions made among themselves with nothing more than an announcement afterwards. People who give money continually through the years are just supposed to trust their decision and have no input.
They say we are a Christian family, but they operate like a business---everything is a business decision. If they were set up more like a family structure where everyone could have a voice prior to decision making, at least people wouldn't feel so blind-sided all the time.
I will say that I'm not necessarily a JAL supporter; I just take this to a higher level of principle. Which is why I join "groups" no more. I'm tired of being told, "We've made this decision in the "best interest of the people." What they are really saying is, "You have no voice!"
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dmiller
Well what do you know - - - I come back to this thread after posting on it (about) 6 days ago about a mere bumper sticker and my interest in what was going on with CES/STF,
and to my COMPLETE surprise find the firestorm that ensued as a result of my telling you all the story. Maybe I should have worded it better.
In order to NOT further detract from this thread, look for a new topic on the subject. Thank you. :)
David
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batcave
I think of all the documents I have read regarding CES/STFI, Bob Maffit's letter saddened me the most. DWBH asked me and others why I hold JWS in high regard. I don't remember all of what I posted before, but I do remember speaking of John's character.
Someone can have high character and still be a poor leader. I believe one of John's weakness has always been a strong, many times misplaced, sense of loyalty to a small group of people that didn't always have his best, or the ministry's best, intentions at heart. For many years he trusted JAL and MG and now that they are gone, his loyalty has gone to DG. I know very little personally about DG, since I left before he really came to power, but the board seemed to be very happy to have lots of time and money to throw their way.
I was very happy to be involved with CES for a few years, but after a while, I think KG tried to "test" me with a couple of personal prophecies to see how far I'd bite and go along with the "word". I didn't bite, but said I'd have to give it some time and see if it rang true in my heart. It didn't, and she just kind of moved on.
I was also very saddened to hear about the Carlsons. I enjoyed spending time with Sue, and I'm so sorry she's been hurt, not only by a ministry, but by family as well. She's a very sharp individual, and anybody who wouldn't pay attention when she brings up an issue, would do so at their own downfall.
I'm so sorry it's gone downhill, but I am so thankful I'm not involved anymore. However, I haven't left without taking a deep mistrust of Christians and ministries with me.
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Tzaia
JWS is a wonderful person as long as you serve a purpose.
He was in complete agreement when it came to shutting his sister out, and HONESTLY felt she should understand. He discarded a 16 year friendship with me and never looked back.
His idea of how women should function in marriage was pure dark ages.
He may be legally in charge, but I sincerely doubt if he has any idea what goes on day-to-day, and he doesn't care - unless it causes him a problem.
That's my experience. YMMV.
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