Twinky, when I was on the wow field and app corpes, I became pregnant. I left the field and withdrew from the program in shame, assuming of course that I was ineligible to continue.
I was found a couple of weeks later by the bc. I was asked to come to the limb to tie up a few loose ends.
Once there I was given the *you made a vow to God* lecture. That the sin wasn`t in getting pregnant...but if I allowed this little collection of cells to prevent me from keeping my promise to God.
I was told that if the guy wouldn`t pay for it...the limb would.
Edited to add...this was not a leadership concieved child, but did pertain to the cost question.
It's the equivalent of say 2 Kgs 6 (people eating their babies). See also Lam 2:20
Did they miss this bit? -
Ps 127:
4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. 5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
And this one:
Gen 1:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth F6 upon the earth.
Anyway back to the topic,
Who paid for these (leadership-conceived) abortions? Was it left to the couple (on the basis that it could have been the husband's fetus that was being aborted)? Was it left to the woman (if a single woman)? Or was this paid for by TWI?
Like so many twi issues, this was always taken on a case-by-case basis. I know of some corps couples who were in-rez when they (oops) got pregnant and they were told to leave the training and go have their babies. Come back as family corps. --- maybe they thought these folks were already on the hook financially and spiritually and they figured there was less risk of 'losing' them by letting them have the baby?
I don`t know highway, I only know that I had left to have the baby, that I was asked to return to the limb to take care of a few loose ends. My bc picked me up and took me.
Twinky, thanks it gets worse...
There was a whole doctrine used...I call it doctrine because people have told me that the same reasoning and verses were used on them.
I was told that I had made a vow to God...if I did not finish my commitment on the wow field and enter the corpes in the fall I would have broken that vow...I would have lied to God. It was then pointed out what happened to people who lied to God...annanias and saphira were trotted out. How God didn`t see it as murder because old testament punishment for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* was different than murder....
It was pointed out that I shouldn`t let a group of cells.....not alive till first breath paracite ... not a real baby and to break my commitment to God for that was unthinkable...all complete with verses presented that appeared to support this .....
The sin was not in having sex, because all things were lawful to them which were in Christ...but only in allowing it to prevent me from honoring my promise. I was told that many people in the corpes big names had found themselves in this situation and not to be ashamed...
Feeling that I had no choice, that I didn`t think thatl I could live life without God....I agreed.
Get this.....The limb co knew where to go and even made the appointment for me. My bc picked me up and drove me me to the appt in the city where the limb was....and stayed with me...I fled the office the first time and was taken back to the lc...I was talked to some more ... a new appt was made....
I don`t want to argue abortion right or wrong either...I just think it was incredibly cruel to have to feel like I needed to chose between God and the child.
I don`t know highway, I only know that I had left to have the baby, that I was asked to return to the limb to take care of a few loose ends. My bc picked me up and took me.
Twinky, thanks it gets worse...
There was a whole doctrine used...I call it doctrine because people have told me that the same reasoning and verses were used on them.
I was told that I had made a vow to God...if I did not finish my commitment on the wow field and enter the corpes in the fall I would have broken that vow...I would have lied to God. It was then pointed out what happened to people who lied to God...annanias and saphira were trotted out. How God didn`t see it as murder because old testament punishment for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* was different than murder....
It was pointed out that I shouldn`t let a group of cells.....not alive till first breath paracite ... not a real baby and to break my commitment to God for that was unthinkable...all complete with verses presented that appeared to support this .....
The sin was not in having sex, because all things were lawful to them which were in Christ...but only in allowing it to prevent me from honoring my promise. I was told that many people in the corpes big names had found themselves in this situation and not to be ashamed...
Feeling that I had no choice, that I didn`t think thatl I could live life without God....I agreed.
Get this.....The limb co knew where to go and even made the appointment for me. My bc picked me up and drove me me to the appt in the city where the limb was....and stayed with me...I fled the office the first time and was taken back to the lc...I was talked to some more ... a new appt was made....
I don`t want to argue abortion right or wrong either...I just think it was incredibly cruel to have to feel like I needed to chose between God and the child.
ohmygod. This is one of the worst stories I've heard yet. It's despicable. I'm so sorry you went through this at the sickening, twisted prompting of lc, bc, and others in The Way who used "committment to God" as the justification... I think I'm going to throw up.
Thanks Penworks, I am sorry to have made you ill :(
I want you to know though...all of this was done in the most loving and kind manner...at the time, I felt like these guys were being incredibly kind in helping me to make the right choices. The person who *counceled* me was simply using the verses and persuasions that had been used on them.
It was horrible, I hated it, the second appointment...I fiercely ran retemories through my mind so that I wouldn`t get tricked into leaving again. It was like I was screaming on the inside...but I had to do something to block it all out. I didn`t dare be a coward, I didn`t dare disspapoint my leaders again.
I was treated like a right little hero for such demonstrated commitment ... like some kind of battle scarred veteran...I shut down all of my feelings and emotions for years about the whole thing...making myself beliieve what they had told me.
It was only many years later, after having children that I had realized I no longer believed what I was taught.
I don`t know highway, I only know that I had left to have the baby, that I was asked to return to the limb to take care of a few loose ends. My bc picked me up and took me.
Twinky, thanks it gets worse...
There was a whole doctrine used...I call it doctrine because people have told me that the same reasoning and verses were used on them.
I was told that I had made a vow to God...if I did not finish my commitment on the wow field and enter the corpes in the fall I would have broken that vow...I would have lied to God. It was then pointed out what happened to people who lied to God...annanias and saphira were trotted out. How God didn`t see it as murder because old testament punishment for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* was different than murder....
It was pointed out that I shouldn`t let a group of cells.....not alive till first breath paracite ... not a real baby and to break my commitment to God for that was unthinkable...all complete with verses presented that appeared to support this .....
The sin was not in having sex, because all things were lawful to them which were in Christ...but only in allowing it to prevent me from honoring my promise. I was told that many people in the corpes big names had found themselves in this situation and not to be ashamed...
Feeling that I had no choice, that I didn`t think thatl I could live life without God....I agreed.
Get this.....The limb co knew where to go and even made the appointment for me. My bc picked me up and drove me me to the appt in the city where the limb was....and stayed with me...I fled the office the first time and was taken back to the lc...I was talked to some more ... a new appt was made....
I don`t want to argue abortion right or wrong either...I just think it was incredibly cruel to have to feel like I needed to chose between God and the child.
Wait-it gets SICKER.
Later, we have people-who post on this messageboard-
who can read all this and INSIST that-since nobody pointed a weapon at her- that this wasn't COERCION.
She was escorted BODILY from where she was, all the way into the doctor's office.
The entire time, she's told how God Almighty REQUIRES her to do this, and it's not a big deal.
When she REFUSES the first time,
they PHYSICALLY ESCORT HER BACK and DEMAND she comply.
Can anyone of sound mind still say that isn't coercion?
Read that aloud to anyone who's never heard of vpw and ask them how much "choice" the person had.
Well that may have been what you asked Twinky...however that does not preclude us from exploring aspects of the topic at hand.
I guess that what word wolf says pertains because it is an indication why people wouldn`t be forth coming with information requested because what he has said is true about the treatment of anyone who comes forward with testimony about this. I have been called a liar, a perpetually whining victim, a psychotic liar, and promoting victim mentality....you name it.
I don`t think that there are many who will come forth and say yep...me!! I screwed vp, lcm whomever...and twi paid for my abortion...
It is a shameful thing...a dirty little secret that you don`t tell anybody...you hide it from yourself even ...There are several people who have come forward, some have pm`d me and told the same story. Many of us can`t forgive ourselves...more than one was physically damaged by the procedure and were never able to have children....I have been asked...*do you think that is punishment for what I did*?
I know on the messiah 7 site on marcias story that she had one and didn`t know if it was vp`s or not.
In my case...my twi leadership...
....knew enough about abortions to have the clinics addy and phone numbers handy...made the appts etc..
....knew enough to have a doctrine complete with scriptures to enforce compliance....
....cared enough to have the ladies escorted....
....and would have paid if the guy hadn`t ponied up....
I`d say that falls under the catagory of our abs dollars at work.
I don't understand why these people involved was not taken to a court of law either State then Federal. According to Case Law
If the conditions specified in division (B) of this section are satisfied, consent to an abortion shall be presumed to be valid and effective.
(G) The performance or inducement of an abortion without the prior satisfaction of the conditions specified in division (B) of this section does not constitute, and shall not be construed as constituting, a violation of division (A) of section 2919.12 of the Revised Code. The failure of a physician to satisfy the conditions of division (B) of this section prior to performing or inducing an abortion upon a pregnant woman may be the basis of both of the following:
(1) A civil action for compensatory and exemplary damages as described in division (H) of this section;
(2) Disciplinary action under section 4731.22 of the Revised Code.
(H)(1) Subject to divisions (H)(2) and (3) of this section, any physician who performs or induces an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section have not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions have been satisfied is liable in compensatory and exemplary damages in a civil action to any person, or the representative of the estate of any person, who sustains injury, death, or loss to person or property as a result of the failure to satisfy those conditions. In the civil action, the court additionally may enter any injunctive or other equitable relief that it considers appropriate.(2) The following shall be affirmative defenses in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section:
(a) The physician performed or induced the abortion under the circumstances described in division (E) of this section.
(b) The physician made a good faith effort to satisfy the conditions specified in division (B) of this section.
(3) An employer or other principal is not liable in damages in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section on the basis of the doctrine of respondeat superior unless either of the following applies:
(a) The employer or other principal had actual knowledge or, by the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have known that his an employee or agent performed or induced an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section had not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions had been satisfied.
i am just trying to understand thats all but sick very very sick to be forced into that.
I don't understand why these people involved was not taken to a court of law either State then Federal. According to Case Law
If the conditions specified in division (B) of this section are satisfied, consent to an abortion shall be presumed to be valid and effective.
(G) The performance or inducement of an abortion without the prior satisfaction of the conditions specified in division (B) of this section does not constitute, and shall not be construed as constituting, a violation of division (A) of section 2919.12 of the Revised Code. The failure of a physician to satisfy the conditions of division (B) of this section prior to performing or inducing an abortion upon a pregnant woman may be the basis of both of the following:
(1) A civil action for compensatory and exemplary damages as described in division (H) of this section;
(2) Disciplinary action under section 4731.22 of the Revised Code.
(H)(1) Subject to divisions (H)(2) and (3) of this section, any physician who performs or induces an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section have not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions have been satisfied is liable in compensatory and exemplary damages in a civil action to any person, or the representative of the estate of any person, who sustains injury, death, or loss to person or property as a result of the failure to satisfy those conditions. In the civil action, the court additionally may enter any injunctive or other equitable relief that it considers appropriate.(2) The following shall be affirmative defenses in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section:
(a) The physician performed or induced the abortion under the circumstances described in division (E) of this section.
(b) The physician made a good faith effort to satisfy the conditions specified in division (B) of this section.
(3) An employer or other principal is not liable in damages in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section on the basis of the doctrine of respondeat superior unless either of the following applies:
(a) The employer or other principal had actual knowledge or, by the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have known that his an employee or agent performed or induced an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section had not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions had been satisfied.
i am just trying to understand thats all but sick very very sick to be forced into that.
I don't understand why these people involved was not taken to a court of law either State then Federal. According to Case Law
If the conditions specified in division (B) of this section are satisfied, consent to an abortion shall be presumed to be valid and effective.
(G) The performance or inducement of an abortion without the prior satisfaction of the conditions specified in division (B) of this section does not constitute, and shall not be construed as constituting, a violation of division (A) of section 2919.12 of the Revised Code. The failure of a physician to satisfy the conditions of division (B) of this section prior to performing or inducing an abortion upon a pregnant woman may be the basis of both of the following:
(1) A civil action for compensatory and exemplary damages as described in division (H) of this section;
(2) Disciplinary action under section 4731.22 of the Revised Code.
(H)(1) Subject to divisions (H)(2) and (3) of this section, any physician who performs or induces an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section have not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions have been satisfied is liable in compensatory and exemplary damages in a civil action to any person, or the representative of the estate of any person, who sustains injury, death, or loss to person or property as a result of the failure to satisfy those conditions. In the civil action, the court additionally may enter any injunctive or other equitable relief that it considers appropriate.(2) The following shall be affirmative defenses in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section:
(a) The physician performed or induced the abortion under the circumstances described in division (E) of this section.
(b) The physician made a good faith effort to satisfy the conditions specified in division (B) of this section.
(3) An employer or other principal is not liable in damages in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section on the basis of the doctrine of respondeat superior unless either of the following applies:
(a) The employer or other principal had actual knowledge or, by the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have known that his an employee or agent performed or induced an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section had not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions had been satisfied.
i am just trying to understand thats all but sick very very sick to be forced into that.
My WOW Family Coordinator told me he got a girl pregnant while he was in residence. He didn't have money to pay for an abortion, so I assume it was paid for by TWI.
This guy had a fling with my WOW sister and many other girls who were wooed by him that year. He even tried to woo me. It was very deceptive. He was giving me a backrub. It seemed harmless. Remember, everyone gave each other backrubs in the early 80s. Then he started kissing my neck. I got up and excused myself. It felt weird and gross to have my WOW brother doing that. He didn't try agaiin after that.
Who paid, Twinky? Well, once, I did. I knew a girl who was pregnant, and didn't want to be, and I didn't know who the father was, and wasn't even that involved with them as friends; she was just a sweet kid in the twig. I had been so schooled that an abortion was no big deal that I gave some extra money that I happened to have that month. We didn't always have extra, but we did at that moment, and we thought that we were doing the Godly thing to free this girl up to move the word unencumbered.
As I look back on the event, some 25 years on now, I surely wish that hindsight weren't so . . . clarifying. It's a horrifying thing to know that I've donated to the death of a baby.
It's also horrifying to know that we were all schooled to think of a fetus in those terms, and that we used those definitions to do other harm, to other people, across so many years of involvement with The Way. The Way International contributed to the deaths of babies. There are a lot of reasons to dislike them, but that casual way of discarding life is one of the most important distinctions between them and a Godly ministry.
So what if they thought that life doesn't start until the first breath? Why does that negate the worth of the fetus? Selfish, manipulative, devilish A$$holes.
Sorry, Pawtucket; that may be the first time I've cussed on your website, I can't think of a more appropriate time.
I don`t think that it occured to many of us to seek legal recourse. We were taught that there was a higher law than *man`s* law... We weren`t to take a believer to court...we weren`t to doubt our leaders..that was the first step down, like eve....we needed to obey, or we were stiff necked....anything that encumbered us from moving the word ...yes even that child was a trick of satan, a deception to get us to cop out on our responsibility to God.
For me, it was a decade later before I realized that I didn`t believe twi`s *first breath* teaching nor any of the other scriptures that were used to enforce the decision.
It wasn`t until nearly 20 years after the fact that I realized that mine wasn`t an isolated occurance. A single leader that was out of bounds :(
Just like most of the abuse that happened in twi...I think the statute of limitations on such things had long since run out.
I agree, it was very sick, it was heartbreaking, it was horrible to have to do that in the name of duty owed to God.
I don`t think that it occured to many of us to seek legal recourse. We were taught that there was a higher law than *man`s* law... We weren`t to take a believer to court...we weren`t to doubt our leaders..that was the first step down, like eve....we needed to obey, or we were stiff necked....anything that encumbered us from moving the word ...yes even that child was a trick of satan, a deception to get us to cop out on our responsibility to God.
For me, it was a decade later before I realized that I didn`t believe twi`s *first breath* teaching nor any of the other scriptures that were used to enforce the decision.
It wasn`t until nearly 20 years after the fact that I realized that mine wasn`t an isolated occurance. A single leader that was out of bounds :(
Just like most of the abuse that happened in twi...I think the statute of limitations on such things had long since run out.
I agree, it was very sick, it was heartbreaking, it was horrible to have to do that in the name of duty owed to God.
That is what haunts me.
Are you still in a alot of mental pain I hope you heal I bet back in da day you were on fire for Christ. I don't know ya but hey yo - as my boys would say back in Iraq "MAN UP AND DRIVE ON WARRIOR" oooooahhh
Are you still in a alot of mental pain I hope you heal I bet back in da day you were on fire for Christ. I don't know ya but hey yo - as my boys would say back in Iraq "MAN UP AND DRIVE ON WARRIOR" oooooahhh
There are plenty of soldiers who go on and "man up",
but still remember something in war, sometimes having flashbacks.
There's Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, which applies to soldiers and civilians,
and both can seem fine, then struggle when something triggers a painful memory.
When a soldier is doing just that, would you recommend telling him to just
buck up and handle it? He already knows he's SUPPOSED to find a way to do that.
Of course, telling him that AT THE TIME really doesn't help. That would be as silly
as confronting someone for having a racing heartbeat, or because they had some
sort of brain attack where they suddenly were disordered and aphasic and all that.
Yet, there ARE people who would confront someone under such an attack-
right when it's happening, they'd demand to know how the person let his brain
get all scrambled. (Of course, it the person's aphasic, it's hard to answer....)
This is clearly stirring up some very unpleasant memories for some people and I am very sorry if I have prodded anybody's pain that was slumbering below the surface.
The teaching was wrong, stupid, inconsiderate, so anti-God and part of the general belittling of women. Pregnant women KNOW they have life growing within them. Even if it isn't "breath life" yet.
Tiny fetuses can now be seen via scans making little movements, stretches, yawns, sucking fingers - it's not alive??? An older fetus when it kicks and can be seen moving - isn't alive???
Pregnant whilst in residence? Well that would be a no-no, and very difficult to do the program whilst either pregnant or with a tiny babe, but the couple should have been given LoA and then returned to the Family Corps (that's if they still wanted to be Corps)
Child "a trick of Satan"?
"Move the Word unencumbered"?
(The words "steal, kill and destroy" come to mind.)
New meaning of "Suffer the little children to come unto me."
"A dozen or so little mogsters crawling about" - now that might be a reason (ha ha) but even the little mogsters if taught proper behavior could learn to be decent kids and adults. (Sorry, being flip here.)
Good thing God is big on forgiveness, both for those who endured the loss of a baby and for those who condoned/supported it, like niKa, with financial help.
Not sure what forgiveness is available to those who actively taught this devilish doctrine.
If I recall correctly, the official twi policy for the financing of abortions was to take the horn of plenty to the abortion clinic and toss the money up in the air...whatever God wanted, He would grab and the rest went to the abortion doctor.
Well See, for me...what angers me is being told that GOD required this of me.
I understand not being able to participate in the wow program or corpes program further. I understand the lost opportunities...etc. But to be told that God required this because I had made a vow that couldn`t be broken. That I could not live in the center of his will and keep the child...
I could and did withdraw from the corpes and wow field...I could have said *no* to any man...what I couldn`t say no to..what I couldn`t live with out is God.
Twinky...this is indeed painful for many...but it is good too...we find out that it wasn`t just *us* it isn`t that dark dirty little secret that we are ashamed of...that we are afraid someone will find out about...it doesn`t live in the back of our subconscious gnawing away like some little rat....
We take it out...we look at it in the light of day and we deal with it.
What is tough, and I think this is what wolf is talking about it when we are suffering through this...the one or two that insist on rewriting the history, attacking a persons credibility, claiming that we are indulging in perpetual victim hood...claiming that there was no gun held to our heads and that we could have left at any time :(
That is what is painful, like salt in an open wound...when you have to defend yourself from attack for speaking up..while examining these memories.
(Rascal, have you noticed it is not women who attack on the sex and abortion issues? We know - gnosko - what was done to us, individually and as a group.) (But that's another thread, please take it up elsewhere if anyone wants to argue.)
It is good to bring to the light the works of darkness and expose them for what they are. The commitment to a person (fetus) has got to be greater than the commitment to a program devised of men - especially one devised for a man's glorification. You know that to be told that God required this of you is COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO HIS WILL which is that you be fruitful and multiply.
Examining in the light cannot completely repair the damage (can't bring back an aborted fetus). But it does relieve the silence and guilt of darkness.
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rascal
Twinky, when I was on the wow field and app corpes, I became pregnant. I left the field and withdrew from the program in shame, assuming of course that I was ineligible to continue.
I was found a couple of weeks later by the bc. I was asked to come to the limb to tie up a few loose ends.
Once there I was given the *you made a vow to God* lecture. That the sin wasn`t in getting pregnant...but if I allowed this little collection of cells to prevent me from keeping my promise to God.
I was told that if the guy wouldn`t pay for it...the limb would.
Edited to add...this was not a leadership concieved child, but did pertain to the cost question.
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Twinky
I'm absolutely horrified. (((Rascal)))
It's the equivalent of say 2 Kgs 6 (people eating their babies). See also Lam 2:20
Did they miss this bit? -
Ps 127:
4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. 5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
And this one:
Gen 1:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth F6 upon the earth.
Anyway back to the topic,
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TheHighWay
Like so many twi issues, this was always taken on a case-by-case basis. I know of some corps couples who were in-rez when they (oops) got pregnant and they were told to leave the training and go have their babies. Come back as family corps. --- maybe they thought these folks were already on the hook financially and spiritually and they figured there was less risk of 'losing' them by letting them have the baby?
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rascal
I don`t know highway, I only know that I had left to have the baby, that I was asked to return to the limb to take care of a few loose ends. My bc picked me up and took me.
Twinky, thanks it gets worse...
There was a whole doctrine used...I call it doctrine because people have told me that the same reasoning and verses were used on them.
I was told that I had made a vow to God...if I did not finish my commitment on the wow field and enter the corpes in the fall I would have broken that vow...I would have lied to God. It was then pointed out what happened to people who lied to God...annanias and saphira were trotted out. How God didn`t see it as murder because old testament punishment for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* was different than murder....
It was pointed out that I shouldn`t let a group of cells.....not alive till first breath paracite ... not a real baby and to break my commitment to God for that was unthinkable...all complete with verses presented that appeared to support this .....
The sin was not in having sex, because all things were lawful to them which were in Christ...but only in allowing it to prevent me from honoring my promise. I was told that many people in the corpes big names had found themselves in this situation and not to be ashamed...
Feeling that I had no choice, that I didn`t think thatl I could live life without God....I agreed.
Get this.....The limb co knew where to go and even made the appointment for me. My bc picked me up and drove me me to the appt in the city where the limb was....and stayed with me...I fled the office the first time and was taken back to the lc...I was talked to some more ... a new appt was made....
I don`t want to argue abortion right or wrong either...I just think it was incredibly cruel to have to feel like I needed to chose between God and the child.
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penworks
ohmygod. This is one of the worst stories I've heard yet. It's despicable. I'm so sorry you went through this at the sickening, twisted prompting of lc, bc, and others in The Way who used "committment to God" as the justification... I think I'm going to throw up.
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rascal
Thanks Penworks, I am sorry to have made you ill :(
I want you to know though...all of this was done in the most loving and kind manner...at the time, I felt like these guys were being incredibly kind in helping me to make the right choices. The person who *counceled* me was simply using the verses and persuasions that had been used on them.
It was horrible, I hated it, the second appointment...I fiercely ran retemories through my mind so that I wouldn`t get tricked into leaving again. It was like I was screaming on the inside...but I had to do something to block it all out. I didn`t dare be a coward, I didn`t dare disspapoint my leaders again.
I was treated like a right little hero for such demonstrated commitment ... like some kind of battle scarred veteran...I shut down all of my feelings and emotions for years about the whole thing...making myself beliieve what they had told me.
It was only many years later, after having children that I had realized I no longer believed what I was taught.
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WordWolf
Wait-it gets SICKER.
Later, we have people-who post on this messageboard-
who can read all this and INSIST that-since nobody pointed a weapon at her- that this wasn't COERCION.
She was escorted BODILY from where she was, all the way into the doctor's office.
The entire time, she's told how God Almighty REQUIRES her to do this, and it's not a big deal.
When she REFUSES the first time,
they PHYSICALLY ESCORT HER BACK and DEMAND she comply.
Can anyone of sound mind still say that isn't coercion?
Read that aloud to anyone who's never heard of vpw and ask them how much "choice" the person had.
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Twinky
WW, you are getting off track. What I asked was, whether TWI paid for leadership-conceived abortions.
Seems like they paid for non-leadership abortions as well. (sick sick sick)
Now the little end represents what you put in
And the big end represents what God blesses you with
...And the blood dripping from the middle represents your abundant sharing at work in the abortion clinic.
So if someone conceived by VPW or LCM or the CC or the BC or the LC or the other "spiritual heavies"- whose pocket paid to clean up the evidence?
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rascal
Well that may have been what you asked Twinky...however that does not preclude us from exploring aspects of the topic at hand.
I guess that what word wolf says pertains because it is an indication why people wouldn`t be forth coming with information requested because what he has said is true about the treatment of anyone who comes forward with testimony about this. I have been called a liar, a perpetually whining victim, a psychotic liar, and promoting victim mentality....you name it.
I don`t think that there are many who will come forth and say yep...me!! I screwed vp, lcm whomever...and twi paid for my abortion...
It is a shameful thing...a dirty little secret that you don`t tell anybody...you hide it from yourself even ...There are several people who have come forward, some have pm`d me and told the same story. Many of us can`t forgive ourselves...more than one was physically damaged by the procedure and were never able to have children....I have been asked...*do you think that is punishment for what I did*?
I know on the messiah 7 site on marcias story that she had one and didn`t know if it was vp`s or not.
In my case...my twi leadership...
....knew enough about abortions to have the clinics addy and phone numbers handy...made the appts etc..
....knew enough to have a doctrine complete with scriptures to enforce compliance....
....cared enough to have the ladies escorted....
....and would have paid if the guy hadn`t ponied up....
I`d say that falls under the catagory of our abs dollars at work.
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WordWolf
AND,
they had it DOWN TO A SYSTEM.
They had PRACTICE.
That means this wasn't the first time ABS money went for that, locally.
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Ham
Seems to me if they were so willing to "pony up" the monies for people in middle of nowhere, at hq it would be just routine practice..
Considering loy's and vic's proclivities, I would be suprised that there aren't otherwise a dozen or so little mogsters crawling about.
There's another thread where vic is said to complain about having to fork out so much money, that the corps oughta just "be more careful.."
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Captain Spiritural
I don't understand why these people involved was not taken to a court of law either State then Federal. According to Case Law
If the conditions specified in division (B) of this section are satisfied, consent to an abortion shall be presumed to be valid and effective.
(G) The performance or inducement of an abortion without the prior satisfaction of the conditions specified in division (B) of this section does not constitute, and shall not be construed as constituting, a violation of division (A) of section 2919.12 of the Revised Code. The failure of a physician to satisfy the conditions of division (B) of this section prior to performing or inducing an abortion upon a pregnant woman may be the basis of both of the following:
(1) A civil action for compensatory and exemplary damages as described in division (H) of this section;
(2) Disciplinary action under section 4731.22 of the Revised Code.
(H)(1) Subject to divisions (H)(2) and (3) of this section, any physician who performs or induces an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section have not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions have been satisfied is liable in compensatory and exemplary damages in a civil action to any person, or the representative of the estate of any person, who sustains injury, death, or loss to person or property as a result of the failure to satisfy those conditions. In the civil action, the court additionally may enter any injunctive or other equitable relief that it considers appropriate.(2) The following shall be affirmative defenses in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section:
(a) The physician performed or induced the abortion under the circumstances described in division (E) of this section.
(b) The physician made a good faith effort to satisfy the conditions specified in division (B) of this section.
© The physician or an agent of the physician requested copies of the materials published in accordance with division © of this section from the department of health, but the physician was not able to give a pregnant woman copies of the materials pursuant to division (B)(3)(2) of this section and to obtain a certification as described in divisions (B)(4)(3) and (5)(4) of this section because the department failed to make the requested number of copies available to the physician or his agent in accordance with division (D) of this section.
(3) An employer or other principal is not liable in damages in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section on the basis of the doctrine of respondeat superior unless either of the following applies:
(a) The employer or other principal had actual knowledge or, by the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have known that his an employee or agent performed or induced an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section had not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions had been satisfied.
i am just trying to understand thats all but sick very very sick to be forced into that.
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Captain Spiritural
I don't understand why these people involved was not taken to a court of law either State then Federal. According to Case Law
If the conditions specified in division (B) of this section are satisfied, consent to an abortion shall be presumed to be valid and effective.
(G) The performance or inducement of an abortion without the prior satisfaction of the conditions specified in division (B) of this section does not constitute, and shall not be construed as constituting, a violation of division (A) of section 2919.12 of the Revised Code. The failure of a physician to satisfy the conditions of division (B) of this section prior to performing or inducing an abortion upon a pregnant woman may be the basis of both of the following:
(1) A civil action for compensatory and exemplary damages as described in division (H) of this section;
(2) Disciplinary action under section 4731.22 of the Revised Code.
(H)(1) Subject to divisions (H)(2) and (3) of this section, any physician who performs or induces an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section have not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions have been satisfied is liable in compensatory and exemplary damages in a civil action to any person, or the representative of the estate of any person, who sustains injury, death, or loss to person or property as a result of the failure to satisfy those conditions. In the civil action, the court additionally may enter any injunctive or other equitable relief that it considers appropriate.(2) The following shall be affirmative defenses in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section:
(a) The physician performed or induced the abortion under the circumstances described in division (E) of this section.
(b) The physician made a good faith effort to satisfy the conditions specified in division (B) of this section.
© The physician or an agent of the physician requested copies of the materials published in accordance with division © of this section from the department of health, but the physician was not able to give a pregnant woman copies of the materials pursuant to division (B)(3)(2) of this section and to obtain a certification as described in divisions (B)(4)(3) and (5)(4) of this section because the department failed to make the requested number of copies available to the physician or his agent in accordance with division (D) of this section.
(3) An employer or other principal is not liable in damages in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section on the basis of the doctrine of respondeat superior unless either of the following applies:
(a) The employer or other principal had actual knowledge or, by the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have known that his an employee or agent performed or induced an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section had not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions had been satisfied.
i am just trying to understand thats all but sick very very sick to be forced into that.
I don't understand why these people involved was not taken to a court of law either State then Federal. According to Case Law
If the conditions specified in division (B) of this section are satisfied, consent to an abortion shall be presumed to be valid and effective.
(G) The performance or inducement of an abortion without the prior satisfaction of the conditions specified in division (B) of this section does not constitute, and shall not be construed as constituting, a violation of division (A) of section 2919.12 of the Revised Code. The failure of a physician to satisfy the conditions of division (B) of this section prior to performing or inducing an abortion upon a pregnant woman may be the basis of both of the following:
(1) A civil action for compensatory and exemplary damages as described in division (H) of this section;
(2) Disciplinary action under section 4731.22 of the Revised Code.
(H)(1) Subject to divisions (H)(2) and (3) of this section, any physician who performs or induces an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section have not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions have been satisfied is liable in compensatory and exemplary damages in a civil action to any person, or the representative of the estate of any person, who sustains injury, death, or loss to person or property as a result of the failure to satisfy those conditions. In the civil action, the court additionally may enter any injunctive or other equitable relief that it considers appropriate.(2) The following shall be affirmative defenses in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section:
(a) The physician performed or induced the abortion under the circumstances described in division (E) of this section.
(b) The physician made a good faith effort to satisfy the conditions specified in division (B) of this section.
© The physician or an agent of the physician requested copies of the materials published in accordance with division © of this section from the department of health, but the physician was not able to give a pregnant woman copies of the materials pursuant to division (B)(3)(2) of this section and to obtain a certification as described in divisions (B)(4)(3) and (5)(4) of this section because the department failed to make the requested number of copies available to the physician or his agent in accordance with division (D) of this section.
(3) An employer or other principal is not liable in damages in a civil action authorized by division (H)(1) of this section on the basis of the doctrine of respondeat superior unless either of the following applies:
(a) The employer or other principal had actual knowledge or, by the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have known that his an employee or agent performed or induced an abortion with actual knowledge that the conditions specified in division (B) of this section had not been satisfied or with a heedless indifference as to whether those conditions had been satisfied.
i am just trying to understand thats all but sick very very sick to be forced into that.
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Nottawayfer
My WOW Family Coordinator told me he got a girl pregnant while he was in residence. He didn't have money to pay for an abortion, so I assume it was paid for by TWI.
This guy had a fling with my WOW sister and many other girls who were wooed by him that year. He even tried to woo me. It was very deceptive. He was giving me a backrub. It seemed harmless. Remember, everyone gave each other backrubs in the early 80s. Then he started kissing my neck. I got up and excused myself. It felt weird and gross to have my WOW brother doing that. He didn't try agaiin after that.
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notinKansasanymore
Who paid, Twinky? Well, once, I did. I knew a girl who was pregnant, and didn't want to be, and I didn't know who the father was, and wasn't even that involved with them as friends; she was just a sweet kid in the twig. I had been so schooled that an abortion was no big deal that I gave some extra money that I happened to have that month. We didn't always have extra, but we did at that moment, and we thought that we were doing the Godly thing to free this girl up to move the word unencumbered.
As I look back on the event, some 25 years on now, I surely wish that hindsight weren't so . . . clarifying. It's a horrifying thing to know that I've donated to the death of a baby.
It's also horrifying to know that we were all schooled to think of a fetus in those terms, and that we used those definitions to do other harm, to other people, across so many years of involvement with The Way. The Way International contributed to the deaths of babies. There are a lot of reasons to dislike them, but that casual way of discarding life is one of the most important distinctions between them and a Godly ministry.
So what if they thought that life doesn't start until the first breath? Why does that negate the worth of the fetus? Selfish, manipulative, devilish A$$holes.
Sorry, Pawtucket; that may be the first time I've cussed on your website, I can't think of a more appropriate time.
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rascal
I don`t think that it occured to many of us to seek legal recourse. We were taught that there was a higher law than *man`s* law... We weren`t to take a believer to court...we weren`t to doubt our leaders..that was the first step down, like eve....we needed to obey, or we were stiff necked....anything that encumbered us from moving the word ...yes even that child was a trick of satan, a deception to get us to cop out on our responsibility to God.
For me, it was a decade later before I realized that I didn`t believe twi`s *first breath* teaching nor any of the other scriptures that were used to enforce the decision.
It wasn`t until nearly 20 years after the fact that I realized that mine wasn`t an isolated occurance. A single leader that was out of bounds :(
Just like most of the abuse that happened in twi...I think the statute of limitations on such things had long since run out.
I agree, it was very sick, it was heartbreaking, it was horrible to have to do that in the name of duty owed to God.
That is what haunts me.
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Captain Spiritural
Are you still in a alot of mental pain I hope you heal I bet back in da day you were on fire for Christ. I don't know ya but hey yo - as my boys would say back in Iraq "MAN UP AND DRIVE ON WARRIOR" oooooahhh
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WordWolf
There are plenty of soldiers who go on and "man up",
but still remember something in war, sometimes having flashbacks.
There's Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, which applies to soldiers and civilians,
and both can seem fine, then struggle when something triggers a painful memory.
When a soldier is doing just that, would you recommend telling him to just
buck up and handle it? He already knows he's SUPPOSED to find a way to do that.
Of course, telling him that AT THE TIME really doesn't help. That would be as silly
as confronting someone for having a racing heartbeat, or because they had some
sort of brain attack where they suddenly were disordered and aphasic and all that.
Yet, there ARE people who would confront someone under such an attack-
right when it's happening, they'd demand to know how the person let his brain
get all scrambled. (Of course, it the person's aphasic, it's hard to answer....)
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Twinky
This is clearly stirring up some very unpleasant memories for some people and I am very sorry if I have prodded anybody's pain that was slumbering below the surface.
The teaching was wrong, stupid, inconsiderate, so anti-God and part of the general belittling of women. Pregnant women KNOW they have life growing within them. Even if it isn't "breath life" yet.
Tiny fetuses can now be seen via scans making little movements, stretches, yawns, sucking fingers - it's not alive??? An older fetus when it kicks and can be seen moving - isn't alive???
Pregnant whilst in residence? Well that would be a no-no, and very difficult to do the program whilst either pregnant or with a tiny babe, but the couple should have been given LoA and then returned to the Family Corps (that's if they still wanted to be Corps)
Child "a trick of Satan"?
"Move the Word unencumbered"?
(The words "steal, kill and destroy" come to mind.)
New meaning of "Suffer the little children to come unto me."
"A dozen or so little mogsters crawling about" - now that might be a reason (ha ha) but even the little mogsters if taught proper behavior could learn to be decent kids and adults. (Sorry, being flip here.)
Good thing God is big on forgiveness, both for those who endured the loss of a baby and for those who condoned/supported it, like niKa, with financial help.
Not sure what forgiveness is available to those who actively taught this devilish doctrine.
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GrouchoMarxJr
If I recall correctly, the official twi policy for the financing of abortions was to take the horn of plenty to the abortion clinic and toss the money up in the air...whatever God wanted, He would grab and the rest went to the abortion doctor.
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rascal
Well See, for me...what angers me is being told that GOD required this of me.
I understand not being able to participate in the wow program or corpes program further. I understand the lost opportunities...etc. But to be told that God required this because I had made a vow that couldn`t be broken. That I could not live in the center of his will and keep the child...
I could and did withdraw from the corpes and wow field...I could have said *no* to any man...what I couldn`t say no to..what I couldn`t live with out is God.
Twinky...this is indeed painful for many...but it is good too...we find out that it wasn`t just *us* it isn`t that dark dirty little secret that we are ashamed of...that we are afraid someone will find out about...it doesn`t live in the back of our subconscious gnawing away like some little rat....
We take it out...we look at it in the light of day and we deal with it.
What is tough, and I think this is what wolf is talking about it when we are suffering through this...the one or two that insist on rewriting the history, attacking a persons credibility, claiming that we are indulging in perpetual victim hood...claiming that there was no gun held to our heads and that we could have left at any time :(
That is what is painful, like salt in an open wound...when you have to defend yourself from attack for speaking up..while examining these memories.
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Twinky
(Rascal, have you noticed it is not women who attack on the sex and abortion issues? We know - gnosko - what was done to us, individually and as a group.) (But that's another thread, please take it up elsewhere if anyone wants to argue.)
It is good to bring to the light the works of darkness and expose them for what they are. The commitment to a person (fetus) has got to be greater than the commitment to a program devised of men - especially one devised for a man's glorification. You know that to be told that God required this of you is COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO HIS WILL which is that you be fruitful and multiply.
Examining in the light cannot completely repair the damage (can't bring back an aborted fetus). But it does relieve the silence and guilt of darkness.
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