I'll try to tune in... was just talking about this with some friends.... that would be 8:15 pm Eastern, I guess.
Care to share some points that spoke to you, Wrds?
or should you ask your husband at home?
:unsure:
“And the next [day]we that were of Paul’s company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was [one] of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.” (Ac 21:8-9 AV)
It sounds very interesting and I am figuring it out now I hope to conect to it!
edited to add:
Their registration requires giving them too much personal information for me, particularily not knowing much about them or the reasons they require it! Sorry!
RG, I didn't register.... haven't tried it yet, but the first page said no registration was required to listen. Didn't you start a thread on this topic several months ago?
I haven't been here since last November so it was not my thread, but it is a topic of interest to me!
Thanks (((Wdsandwks)))! I am sure many will find this to be a great topic!
For the record: It is MHO that Women are an equal benefit to the church along with any of the men, if they are being held to the same standards and conducting themselves in the same
manner as is expected of any of the males. Their opportunities, offices, pay, benefits, and service should be equal!
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
2Cr 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift [bestowed] upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.
I still think that the man should be the head of the Family as in Ephesians; but what wise women would
marry a man who would not love her as Christ loved the church, and value her impute, abilities, long suits and opinions???
Jesus Christ is Lord... over all!
Ephesians isn't asking husbands to be dictators and "control freaks" We have seen way too much of the lording over of GOD's people from a selfish self-center stand
point. Balances are not easy to find or maintain without a lot of effort by all.
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 ¶ Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.
edit: You appear to be right about registration, even though the page says the following:
There is no cost or pre-registration to join our Sunday Morning Service REPLAY at Glory of Zion Outreach Center. However, your computer will need to meet certain system requirements...
I know I thought I saw a thread on this topic here a while back, but when I briefly looked for it today I couldn't find it. This is a topic of great interest to me.
I'll type up my notes and post them here, but right now I've got to check in on the Olympics, women's gymnastics espcially.
Hi, it's me, the starter of the other thread. This one is interesting too. I can't listen to the link because we had to disable our speakers to plug the camera cable and dowload pictures of our adorable grandson and the Sprout's wedding.
It did occur to me, though, unfortunately a lot of men (present company excluded of course) read the part about the husband being the head over the wife and close the book. It's when the guys study the part about the relationship being as that of Christ to His church, and then go back and think about what Christ DID for His church, that things just start to get really sweet.
I have no doubt they ought to be silent. As quiet as a mouse. Not a peep should come forth..
That is as long as they keep their mouth closed.. But once they open it, I have no doubt they should speak! lol..
Anyways.. Someone whom I don't completely agree with on everything, but I think has some great insights in some things, a man named Frank Viola, I think he has an alright summation that kind of is my POV.. Since it is too long, here's a link..
I have no doubt they ought to be silent. As quiet as a mouse. Not a peep should come forth..
That is as long as they keep their mouth closed.. But once they open it, I have no doubt they should speak! lol..
Anyways.. Someone whom I don't completely agree with on everything, but I think has some great insights in some things, a man named Frank Viola, I think he has an alright summation that kind of is my POV.. Since it is too long, here's a link..
I enjoyed the article and would agree as you do to most of it. It is long, but well worth the read!
Particularly I liked: these snip pits being brought out:
"When Jesus Christ entered the scene, all of this radically changed. Our Lord inaugurated a New Covenant which made the old one obsolete. The New Covenant did
away with rules. It did away with earthly distinctions. And it abolished special classes of people who possessed special privileges.":
"Galatians 3:28 sums up the New Covenant nicely: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This passage
summarizes Paul’s understanding of the effect of the gospel on cultural givens like racism, slavery, and gender oppression. Galatians 3:28 is not constricted to “salvation.” Instead, it
holds social implications for everyone. In short, the New Covenant erases all social and class distinctions. And it has afforded all to receive the Spirit and serve as priests in God’s house.
That includes women. With that said, whatever the “limiting passages” mean, they cannot in any way overturn the New Covenant. Neither can they contradict the entire thrust of the New
Testament. Hence, the idea that women are excluded from speaking in God’s house is a catastrophic breach of the New Covenant. A covenant that has done away with earthly
distinctions and treats both men and women as co-priests in God’s kingdom.
GreaseSpot Cafe > General > Archive > Religions, Churches, and Doctrines
rather than "Doctrinal" --- no wonder I couldn't find it.
There was a lot of discussion.
There are times when women should keep silence in the Church.... like when they are about to say something stupid.
On the other hand, as it has been pointed out, that rule ought to apply to men as well!
There have been many times that I would have wished the men would have kept silence in the Church. Speaking of which, I spent my Sunday morning last worshiping with Quaker "friends." We spent an hour together, in silence. No one said a word.
There are times when women should keep silence in the Church.... like when they are about to say something stupid.
On the other hand, as it has been pointed out, that rule ought to apply to men as well!
Nice one Dan!
I see we've been moved to the basement.
Here are my notes from the teaching. My disclaimer is: Robert Heidler from Glory of Zion gave this teaching. These are just notes I took as he was speaking. I haven't had time to go through and check everything. I also may not have written everything he said correctly.
Notes from teaching on Women in Ministry
Started with the Prophetess Deborah in Judges 6.
Many Christians have believed a lie:
1. Healing isn’t for today: Christians stay sick
2. The gifts are not for today: We lay down our weapons.
3. Apostles and prophets are not for today: Reject God’s leadership.
But Satan’s most effective strategy against the Church:
His lies about men and women.
Tells women: Women can’t minister, that’s a man’s job, so half the army sits down.
Tell the men: Christianity isn’t manly: The other half stays home.
God is restoring women and men to their place. It’s time to diffuse the lies of the enemy.
What does the Bible say about women in ministry?
Evangelism:
Mary Magdalene: John 20
The Samaritan woman: The first evangelist in history John 4
Prophecy
Anna the prophetess: Acts 2
Acts 20: Philip and his 4 daughters
I Cor. 11: How women should dress when praying or prophesying in church
I Cor. 14: All can prophesy
Tongues
Acts 2 All
I Cor. 14:2, 26 Everyone
Teaching
Acts 18
II Tim: Lois and Eunice taught Timothy
I Cor. 14 all
Hebs 5:12: all
Leading Public Prayer
I Cor. 11
Acts 16 Lydia
Deacons
Phoebe Rms 16
Apostle: Junia Rms 16:7 Not just an apostle but outstanding among the apostles
2 passages have been used to spread the lie about women in ministry:
I Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. She must be silent.
Teach – didasko Refers to a specific kind of teaching, to disciple – a long term intimate relationship like Jesus had with the 12 disciples. Mk. 6:2; Mt 5:2
A disciple attached himself to a master. They ate together, slept together. It would not be appropriate for a woman to have this kind of relationship with a man.
There are other kinds of teaching that are entirely appropriate:
Katakeo – I Cor. 14:19 to catachize
Paradidomai - I Cor. 11:23
Paideuo – To instruct , train
How about women in authority?
authenteo – The root means to dominate, seize or usurp authority. Usurping their will.
Is Paul telling women to shut up?
I Tim 2:12
Enesukia: A quietness, tranquility, free of ambition
I Cor. 14:34,35
Women must remain silent in the churches. It is disgraceful to speak in the church. Women are told to shut up and sit down.
The problem with that view is that it is clear that women ministered in the early church.
I Cor. 14:26, 31 Every believer is free to minister.
What is the context of Corinthians? The Corinthians were disorderly, immoral, factious and immature.
I Corinthians is Paul’s response to specific problems which were made known to Paul.
The ministry was in the context of a meal. Some got drunk and overate; some of the women were overtalking. Stop disrupting the ministry.
The scheme of the enemy, used the Greek mindset to hold women in bondage for generations.
Wonderful stuff to consider, and substantive. I just read through the earlier thread, and as good as it was, it didn't directly deal with some of the substantive issues.
To me, questions of "ministry" and "speaking" must conform to the NT proposition that in Christ there is neither male nor female, bond nor free, etc.
AND YET, particularly within the marriage arrangement, the divine order should be respected, and adhered to. This does NOT mean that the man is always right. (My experience has patently shown otherwise!) But ultimately God's "order" in a marriage context requires the same obedience as in any other context.
The infamous verses in 1 Cor.14 about women keeping silence in the church had to do with the current cultural norm.... men had religious training, and women did not. This is not necessarily so today. The point of Paul's reasoning was that the fellowship was not to be disrupted or unedifying because of those who had questions that could be answered "at home." Today's culture is different, but the heart of God is to "all generations." The "divine order" has thrown out distinctions of class, nationality, gender, and so forth. A man or a woman who has "a word" must NOT "keep silence" in the church nor anywhere! The examples are too numerous to mention. (Though Wordwolf might be capable of innumerating them; it's not my gift.)
Deborahs and Phoebes and Lydias abound, as the Lord adds to the Church, and oh, how our hearts should rejoice as their voices are heard! And what of the men? Remember the old song, "Rise up, o men of God...."? All of us, ALL of us, by God's grace, may we "rise up" and proclaim his story, his message, "as the Lord gives the utterance"!
This guy says somewhere on his website that he wanted to be a minister, but God told him NOT to go to seminary and He would teach him what people need to know, for seminaries are full of apostates and do not teach the truth.
It is in the archives under churches, doctrines and something else.
I started that thread for an entirely different reason, mostly because I had taught in a small group in someones' home, at the leader's invitation, and the leader's wife got upset because a WOMAN had TAUGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE in front of MEN! It went on from there.
Perhaps someone can combine them at sometime if everyone so desires.
It is in the archives under churches, doctrines and something else.
I started that thread for an entirely different reason, mostly because I had taught in a small group in someones' home, at the leader's invitation, and the leader's wife got upset because a WOMAN had TAUGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE in front of MEN! It went on from there.
Perhaps someone can combine them at sometime if everyone so desires.
WG
Sounds like the leader's wife should try having a conversation once in a while with her husband!
The church we helped plant is dying and the young associate pastor wants to start a new, nondenominational fellowship. He and another man are the two elders, so far. He is training a few good men to be elders, one of whom is Mr. Garden, at least for right now.
This young man says that while perhaps some women may qualify to be deacons, there will never ever ever be a woman elder or a woman allowed to teach from the stage. Women, he informed us, can be vicious, terrible gossips, as Paul warns. (the worst I ever heard were men). So he is quite leery of women being in authority at all. Of course, I'm sure we are allowed to cook and clean.
He uses those same verses about women keeping silent, not teaching or usurping authority over men, and so on. These are, he says, universal truths commanded by God to be obeyed.
Mr. Garden does not believe this, so I don't know what he will do when they get to that part in the book (I sneaked a peek at the book, probably going to hell now )
I am thoroughly sick of this; the only thing that keeps me going is my son and DIL going to this church. The pastor has done a lot for him and I am very grateful. And the odd thing is, I don't want to be an elder or a deacon; all I want is a little respect and acknowledgment that I too am a worthwhile and not too stupid human being.
The link to Bethel Ministries that I posted earlier seems to imply that women do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, only men. Wives have a personal relationship with their husbands, because the husband is the head of the wife and Christ is the head of the man.
I wonder how many perfectly great marriages have been strained because someone ran across this clap-trap. I feel like instead of being partners and best friends, we are, as the women's Bible fellowship was taught, to be master/servant. (Honest we really really were).
I only continue to be quite and patient about this because of my son and his family. However, if it ever gets to a point when he starts to wonder about some of the dogma, I will be happy to jump in and suggest we shop around a little.
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anotherDan
I'll try to tune in... was just talking about this with some friends.... that would be 8:15 pm Eastern, I guess.
Care to share some points that spoke to you, Wrds?
or should you ask your husband at home?
:unsure:
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RainbowsGirl
Dear (((((Wordsandworks))))) Thank you!
It sounds very interesting and I am figuring it out now I hope to conect to it!
edited to add:
Their registration requires giving them too much personal information for me, particularily not knowing much about them or the reasons they require it! Sorry!
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anotherDan
RG, I didn't register.... haven't tried it yet, but the first page said no registration was required to listen. Didn't you start a thread on this topic several months ago?
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RainbowsGirl
Dear ((((Dan))))!
I haven't been here since last November so it was not my thread, but it is a topic of interest to me!
Thanks (((Wdsandwks)))! I am sure many will find this to be a great topic!
For the record: It is MHO that Women are an equal benefit to the church along with any of the men, if they are being held to the same standards and conducting themselves in the same
manner as is expected of any of the males. Their opportunities, offices, pay, benefits, and service should be equal!
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
2Cr 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift [bestowed] upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.
I still think that the man should be the head of the Family as in Ephesians; but what wise women would
marry a man who would not love her as Christ loved the church, and value her impute, abilities, long suits and opinions???
Jesus Christ is Lord... over all!
Ephesians isn't asking husbands to be dictators and "control freaks" We have seen way too much of the lording over of GOD's people from a selfish self-center stand
point. Balances are not easy to find or maintain without a lot of effort by all.
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 ¶ Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.
Thanks Dan, I will try it again!
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RainbowsGirl
I think You must have to register to connect :(
Wordsandworks, maybe you can full me in on the broadcast?
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anotherDan
RG, I think you're right about all that stuff
((((( you )))))))))
edit: You appear to be right about registration, even though the page says the following:
strange
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wrdsandwrks
RG and Dan,
I know I thought I saw a thread on this topic here a while back, but when I briefly looked for it today I couldn't find it. This is a topic of great interest to me.
I'll type up my notes and post them here, but right now I've got to check in on the Olympics, women's gymnastics espcially.
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RainbowsGirl
Thanks Dan and Wodsandwork!
Dan You are going to share your perspectives too Right?
It would be nice to hear the men's comments and views!
Thanks for taking notesWds&Wks!
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anotherDan
It may have been started by Watered Garden
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ihrleben
Yep, hot button issue.
Of course women should be in all facets of ministry!
I'll answer questions as they come, cause I don't really feel like writing an exposition on the subject.
However, it does make for a great discussion. I've spent a lot of time researching this topic.
Questions?
We can start in the OT or NT if anyone would like.....
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HAPe4me
FYI, the other thread on this topic can be found at:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=3123
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Watered Garden
Hi, it's me, the starter of the other thread. This one is interesting too. I can't listen to the link because we had to disable our speakers to plug the camera cable and dowload pictures of our adorable grandson and the Sprout's wedding.
It did occur to me, though, unfortunately a lot of men (present company excluded of course) read the part about the husband being the head over the wife and close the book. It's when the guys study the part about the relationship being as that of Christ to His church, and then go back and think about what Christ DID for His church, that things just start to get really sweet.
WG
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TrustAndObey
I have no doubt they ought to be silent. As quiet as a mouse. Not a peep should come forth..
That is as long as they keep their mouth closed.. But once they open it, I have no doubt they should speak! lol..
Anyways.. Someone whom I don't completely agree with on everything, but I think has some great insights in some things, a man named Frank Viola, I think he has an alright summation that kind of is my POV.. Since it is too long, here's a link..
Women quiet - never
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RainbowsGirl
Thank You, ((( TrustAndObey)))!
I enjoyed the article and would agree as you do to most of it. It is long, but well worth the read!
Particularly I liked: these snip pits being brought out:
"When Jesus Christ entered the scene, all of this radically changed. Our Lord inaugurated a New Covenant which made the old one obsolete. The New Covenant did
away with rules. It did away with earthly distinctions. And it abolished special classes of people who possessed special privileges.":
"Galatians 3:28 sums up the New Covenant nicely: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This passage
summarizes Paul’s understanding of the effect of the gospel on cultural givens like racism, slavery, and gender oppression. Galatians 3:28 is not constricted to “salvation.” Instead, it
holds social implications for everyone. In short, the New Covenant erases all social and class distinctions. And it has afforded all to receive the Spirit and serve as priests in God’s house.
That includes women. With that said, whatever the “limiting passages” mean, they cannot in any way overturn the New Covenant. Neither can they contradict the entire thrust of the New
Testament. Hence, the idea that women are excluded from speaking in God’s house is a catastrophic breach of the New Covenant. A covenant that has done away with earthly
distinctions and treats both men and women as co-priests in God’s kingdom.
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cman
Women usually refers to spirit or wisdom.
I think it's speaking of self control and temperance in using that.
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anotherDan
Thanks, HAP, it was in:
GreaseSpot Cafe > General > Archive > Religions, Churches, and Doctrines
rather than "Doctrinal" --- no wonder I couldn't find it.
There was a lot of discussion.
There are times when women should keep silence in the Church.... like when they are about to say something stupid.
On the other hand, as it has been pointed out, that rule ought to apply to men as well!
There have been many times that I would have wished the men would have kept silence in the Church. Speaking of which, I spent my Sunday morning last worshiping with Quaker "friends." We spent an hour together, in silence. No one said a word.
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wrdsandwrks
Nice one Dan!
I see we've been moved to the basement.
Here are my notes from the teaching. My disclaimer is: Robert Heidler from Glory of Zion gave this teaching. These are just notes I took as he was speaking. I haven't had time to go through and check everything. I also may not have written everything he said correctly.
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anotherDan
Wonderful stuff to consider, and substantive. I just read through the earlier thread, and as good as it was, it didn't directly deal with some of the substantive issues.
To me, questions of "ministry" and "speaking" must conform to the NT proposition that in Christ there is neither male nor female, bond nor free, etc.
AND YET, particularly within the marriage arrangement, the divine order should be respected, and adhered to. This does NOT mean that the man is always right. (My experience has patently shown otherwise!) But ultimately God's "order" in a marriage context requires the same obedience as in any other context.
The infamous verses in 1 Cor.14 about women keeping silence in the church had to do with the current cultural norm.... men had religious training, and women did not. This is not necessarily so today. The point of Paul's reasoning was that the fellowship was not to be disrupted or unedifying because of those who had questions that could be answered "at home." Today's culture is different, but the heart of God is to "all generations." The "divine order" has thrown out distinctions of class, nationality, gender, and so forth. A man or a woman who has "a word" must NOT "keep silence" in the church nor anywhere! The examples are too numerous to mention. (Though Wordwolf might be capable of innumerating them; it's not my gift.)
Deborahs and Phoebes and Lydias abound, as the Lord adds to the Church, and oh, how our hearts should rejoice as their voices are heard! And what of the men? Remember the old song, "Rise up, o men of God...."? All of us, ALL of us, by God's grace, may we "rise up" and proclaim his story, his message, "as the Lord gives the utterance"!
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Watered Garden
Now here's a link to some fundamentalist stuff that makes may hair stand on end:
http://www.bethelministries.com/subjection.htm
This guy says somewhere on his website that he wanted to be a minister, but God told him NOT to go to seminary and He would teach him what people need to know, for seminaries are full of apostates and do not teach the truth.
Deja vue all over again.
WG
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HAPe4me
wasn't there another thread on this topic? where did it go?
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Watered Garden
It is in the archives under churches, doctrines and something else.
I started that thread for an entirely different reason, mostly because I had taught in a small group in someones' home, at the leader's invitation, and the leader's wife got upset because a WOMAN had TAUGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE in front of MEN!
It went on from there.
Perhaps someone can combine them at sometime if everyone so desires.
WG
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brideofjc
Sounds like the leader's wife should try having a conversation once in a while with her husband!
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Watered Garden
Well, more stuff...
The church we helped plant is dying and the young associate pastor wants to start a new, nondenominational fellowship. He and another man are the two elders, so far. He is training a few good men to be elders, one of whom is Mr. Garden, at least for right now.
This young man says that while perhaps some women may qualify to be deacons, there will never ever ever be a woman elder or a woman allowed to teach from the stage. Women, he informed us, can be vicious, terrible gossips, as Paul warns. (the worst I ever heard were men). So he is quite leery of women being in authority at all. Of course, I'm sure we are allowed to cook and clean.
He uses those same verses about women keeping silent, not teaching or usurping authority over men, and so on. These are, he says, universal truths commanded by God to be obeyed.
Mr. Garden does not believe this, so I don't know what he will do when they get to that part in the book (I sneaked a peek at the book, probably going to hell now
)
I am thoroughly sick of this; the only thing that keeps me going is my son and DIL going to this church. The pastor has done a lot for him and I am very grateful. And the odd thing is, I don't want to be an elder or a deacon; all I want is a little respect and acknowledgment that I too am a worthwhile and not too stupid human being.
The link to Bethel Ministries that I posted earlier seems to imply that women do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, only men. Wives have a personal relationship with their husbands, because the husband is the head of the wife and Christ is the head of the man.
I wonder how many perfectly great marriages have been strained because someone ran across this clap-trap. I feel like instead of being partners and best friends, we are, as the women's Bible fellowship was taught, to be master/servant. (Honest we really really were).
I only continue to be quite and patient about this because of my son and his family. However, if it ever gets to a point when he starts to wonder about some of the dogma, I will be happy to jump in and suggest we shop around a little.
WG
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cheranne
No.
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