Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe
doojable

Manipulation through Intimidation

Recommended Posts

Control.

Control at all costs.

Intimidate and manipulate.

This is what I frequently think about when I think about some of the tactics I saw while in twi. It could have been as subtle as a leader telling you to get back in fellowship (even though you didn't even know you were out,) or it could have been as intense as a public face melting.

We've read and heard about the brandishing of guns by Mr Linder and his henchmen. It's one thing to have a security force of twi "rent a cop wannabes" to keep things safe. It's quite another when you consider that guns have been used to intimidate people into keeping their their mouths shut and maintaining the party line.

How would the following headline be received?

"Wayfer Killed by TWI Security Force"

Twi is all about controlling their image. I wonder if there is any real "teeth" to the threat of gun violence when a gun is conveniently shown to intimidate a "beloved member of the household."

What do you think? Do you think they would follow through with it? Do you think they just play the odds that someone doesn't want to find out?

Edited by doojable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doojable,

My husband had a loaded gun held to his head by an insane limb leader. He worked for the guy and my husband made a mistake which cost the limb leader a SMALL amount of money.

He held a gun to my husbands head while he threatened him life over money. Sounds crazy, but it happened.

When hubby was going to marry me--the limb leader was ticked because Hubby worked as a supervisor for him--hubby needed more money--the guy was so mean he tried to break us up instead of give a raise or lose cheap labor. He paid next to NOTHING. Not enough to live on unless we lived with a bunch of Wayfers.

One of the reasons we have fond memories of DWBH is because he came for a visit and gave this limb leader a hard time. DWBH drove this guy crazy--DWBH said "Watch this I am going to .... him off" sat at his desk-put his feet on it---and smoked with no ashtray--the limb leader walked out. DWBH was one of the few people this guy really liked and would take that from. The limb leader was a rabid anti-smoker.

It was a nice moment!

The limb leader is dead now--he had a really lovely wife--so we never commented on any thread about him--we just lurked and kinda snorted at all the glorious things said about him. He tortured us and used a loaded gun on hubby as intimidation.

Our lives improved the further we got away from him--well in some ways--we were still in TWI after-all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geisha, I'm glad that wacko never pulled the trigger.

I almost forgot how many truly insane people held high positions in twi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just Linder and the Security Dept. that has guns at HQ - just about everyone has guns who lives on grounds or in the area. I can't imagine the amount of ammo that's in just Founders' Hall alone. If there was ever a fire in that building... it would probably look like Chinese New Year.

When my x and I moved to HQ to be on staff we were in the minority because we did not own a gun. I'm very glad we didn't - he suffered from manic depression/paranoia/schizophrenia and could be bad enough with just two hands - never mind any weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the question remains...

Barring heat of the moment incidents, do you believe that a gun would have been used to silence someone? I'm not talking about a brawl or heated argument. Picture a scenario where a man is called into LCM's office and Linder was there with a gun on his side and a gun on the desk...

What about at the reading of POP? (I thought I read that there was a gun present with CG.)

I'm wondering if this was just intimidation or did they mean business.

Edited by doojable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But the question remains...

Barring heat of the moment incidents, do you believe that a gun would have been used to silence someone? I'm not talking about a brawl or heated argument. Picture a scenario where a man is called into LCM's office and Linder was there with a gun on his side and a gun on the desk...

What about at the reading of POP? (I thought I read that there was a gun present with CG.)

I'm wondering if this was just intimidation or did they mean business.

That's the thing, though...

To be in twi, now more than ever, is to have one's self-control, temperance, and moderation lie fallow and

atrophy.

You can't bar "heat of the moment incidents" because twi'ers at hq with guns who face any inconvenience that

threatens their worldview- including people laughing at their threat or flat-out disregarding them-

will explode into violence in response due to lack of self-preservation beyond the impulse level.

So, I could easily see, say, Linder told to stand there with a gun, and lcm make threats, then the person blows

off lcm and turns to leave, lcm screams, and Linder "decides" that shooting someone is preferable to the loss

of control demonstrated by them leaving before they're dismissed. That's supposing lcm didn't tell him to

shoot, or pull the trigger himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many of these people (especially VPW) were from rural backgrounds where guns are a way of life. One of the first things you learn when you "come of age" is that you never brandish a firearm unless you are prepared to use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Many of these people (especially VPW) were from rural backgrounds where guns are a way of life. One of the first things you learn when you "come of age" is that you never brandish a firearm unless you are prepared to use it.

They may have gotten older, but I question whether the twi gun mavens ever "came of age."

I forget who here told the story of someone blowing a hole in a ceiling because people were handing a

LOADED SHOTGUN around, and someone played with the trigger.

Penn Gillette said that nearly all gun accidents could be avoided if a few simple rules were followed universally:

1) Always treat all guns as loaded unless you have emptied it yourself.

2) Never point a gun at anything unless you intend to destroy it.

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you have the target in your sites.

4) Be aware of your backstops-what is around your target, mindful of ricochets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But the question remains...

Barring heat of the moment incidents, do you believe that a gun would have been used to silence someone? I'm not talking about a brawl or heated argument. Picture a scenario where a man is called into LCM's office and Linder was there with a gun on his side and a gun on the desk...

How do we know they have not already? Pretty closed group--expert at cover-up. They were not above grooming young women for insanity or suicide when they refused the MOG. Telling them they didn't see what they did--devil spirits.Blah blah blah. Drugging them. They are capable of some pretty horrendous things.

Wouldn't shock me if there were a few bodies buried in those Ohio woods. But, we just don't know.

Would it surprize anyone--given all we know about this "Godly" organization?

I think it was worse than we realize. I am just saying--wouldn't shock me if we learned someday of a cover-up.

And BTW--why does a speaker need a gun at a meeting filled with "Clergy"? Ya know--when I go to church now--I am pretty confident the Pastor is NOT "Packing Heat".

Edited by Mod Cow
Getting personal with a poster not participating in the thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If someone held a gun to my head in a threat I would be gone. End of story. They'd either have to use it on me or I'd walk out and to the police department. I don't handle threats too well, so they'd either have to back down or use it.

We've never owned guns. Why? Because I have a temper and problems with impulse control (although not as much now as when I was younger). When someone in our twig asked why we didn't own a gun, I told them the truth.

I'd have to say that as an adult I've not been prone to intimidation or manipulation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's the thing, though...

To be in twi, now more than ever, is to have one's self-control, temperance, and moderation lie fallow and

atrophy.

You can't bar "heat of the moment incidents" because twi'ers at hq with guns who face any inconvenience that

threatens their worldview- including people laughing at their threat or flat-out disregarding them-

will explode into violence in response due to lack of self-preservation beyond the impulse level.

So, I could easily see, say, Linder told to stand there with a gun, and lcm make threats, then the person blows

off lcm and turns to leave, lcm screams, and Linder "decides" that shooting someone is preferable to the loss

of control demonstrated by them leaving before they're dismissed. That's supposing lcm didn't tell him to

shoot, or pull the trigger himself.

I see that scenario... but I also see the "temperance" of public opinion holding them back.

After all, how would they explain it to the authorities? Self-defense?

Der victoid used psychological manipulation and threats.

There's really no way to tell. Some may have that little bit of self-control still in place. Then again, what if they don't?

Hard to believe this is supposed to be a "Christian" organization- huh?

Innies? Hope you can take a hard look at what you're involved in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of my post is that the firepower in that place is beyond the Security Dept. - anyone getting out of control (possessed) could be taken out in a manner that would best be called brut force.

Don't you remember the teachings that devil spirits would know there's a firearm on grounds or on someone's property and therefore they would avoid robbing a home or attacking the person with the weapon because the devil spirit didn't want to loose it's host ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don't you remember the teachings that devil spirits would know there's a firearm on grounds or on someone's property and therefore they would avoid robbing a home or attacking the person with the weapon because the devil spirit didn't want to loose it's host ???

Nope. Never heard that teaching. What a bunch of bull. IMHO of course...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The point of my post is that the firepower in that place is beyond the Security Dept. - anyone getting out of control (possessed) could be taken out in a manner that would best be called brut force.

Don't you remember the teachings that devil spirits would know there's a firearm on grounds or on someone's property and therefore they would avoid robbing a home or attacking the person with the weapon because the devil spirit didn't want to loose it's host ???

A host? This is getting off-topic, but I was wondering if TWI teaches that "devil spirits" or demons can only hurt or influence people if they inhabit or possess a human?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to me that if TWI had remained largely populated (big membership) it would only be a matter of time until the wrong person had a gun and indeed for "righteous" purposes committed a shooting or other potentially fatal act. How many other extreme religious cults have seen this? Plenty. LDS, Jimmy Jones, a couple of muslim sects embrace it heavily - NOT ALL MUSLIMS NOR MUSLIM SECTS PLEASE NOTE, three religious cults in Russia in the last two years, etc etc etc.

I think it was just a matter of time except that their numbers dwindled so far down that they need to be more careful to maintain a "nice" relationship with the current Waybrains to keep that cash coming in.

But the question remains...

Barring heat of the moment incidents, do you believe that a gun would have been used to silence someone? I'm not talking about a brawl or heated argument. Picture a scenario where a man is called into LCM's office and Linder was there with a gun on his side and a gun on the desk...

What about at the reading of POP? (I thought I read that there was a gun present with CG.)

I'm wondering if this was just intimidation or did they mean business.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree RumRunner.

I also see how it could get to the point that only a gun would do to really intimidate someone.

If you have someone who is a strong leader, (a recent thread comes to mind) and truly has "godly righteousness" on their side, ("It's wrong for you to sleep with my wife!") then there is no "spiritual superiority" to whip out and brandish about. There is no "Renew your mind dammit!" that can be said, because the MOG is the one in the wrong, and he knows it. Hence, the fear of death is a strong manipulator. ("I may not be right, but I've got the firepower. YOU WILL do as I say and like it.")

Not that it's necessarily smart to call a bluff when you have a bunch of potential religious psychos brandishing guns...

Edited by doojable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing comes to mind - I'm sure when firearms were used for intimidation purposes, there were no witnesses around who might blab. I'm sure Mr. L would have happily lied under oath should LCM have suddenly blasted away an unhappy individual confronting him. "It was self-defense." Sure it was.

WG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The point of my post is that the firepower in that place is beyond the Security Dept. - anyone getting out of control (possessed) could be taken out in a manner that would best be called brut force.

Don't you remember the teachings that devil spirits would know there's a firearm on grounds or on someone's property and therefore they would avoid robbing a home or attacking the person with the weapon because the devil spirit didn't want to loose it's host ???

Yeah. Craig's Advanced Class (PFAL -- I was gone before the WAP AC). He made a show of cocking a shotgun and a pistol (a Glock, I think) as "sounds that would back off a devil spirit." or words to that effect. At least in HIS theology, a devil spirit would rather hang out in a human that he'd already "conditioned" than have to go find another.

George

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Penn Gillette said that nearly all gun accidents could be avoided if a few simple rules were followed universally:

1) Always treat all guns as loaded unless you have emptied it yourself.

2) Never point a gun at anything unless you intend to destroy it.

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you have the target in your sites.

4) Be aware of your backstops-what is around your target, mindful of ricochets.

Of course. And most heart attacks could be avoided if people stopped smoking, ate right, and exercised.

Most automobile accidents could be avoided if people didn't drive while drunk, tired, or distracted and drove safely at all times.

In other words, if people acted as they "should" lots of bad things wouldn't happen.

As for guns at TWI - I got out in the mid- 1980's. I never saw guns used for intimidation (but there was less of that back then). However I lived at HQ in the trailers with a couple guys who worked for vpw. One was his driver (before Chris Geer) and another I think drove another bus. One was cleaning/playing with his gun in the house and it went off. But bullet went through the wall - probably missing the head of other guy in the next room by inches. The attitude was "no harm, no foul" but it was pretty scary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The attitude was "no harm, no foul"

:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A host? This is getting off-topic, but I was wondering if TWI teaches that "devil spirits" or demons can only hurt or influence people if they inhabit or possess a human?

There's really a yes and no kind of answer to your question.

TWI taught that spirits can not cause any physical action in the real word without a living host, be it human or animal. In other words, spirits can't take over a machine like in the Stephan King novel about a car that comes to life. The "influence" thing, though, is a whole different story. TWI taught that devil spirits can influence your thinking and actions. In the Advanced Class, there is a whole list of devil spirits that supposedly can do exactly that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Waysider may remember this, though it was kept kinda quiet at the time. Our first year in FLO, HO**** YER**** Jr was limb leader (they were leaders back then, not coordinators). He had a big old 45 caliber revolver, dirty Harry type of firearm, and enjoyed sitting on the hill behind the limb home shooting out past the woods and across the field behind the woods. The field also contained the 2 1/2 acre organic garden where we toiled so many happy hours growing vegetables. At that point there was an irrigation problem and someone had set up a large kiddie pool with hard plastic sides to fill with a hose run down the hill and through the woods to the front of the garden.

Mr. Garden was in charge of the garden, and first was dismayed to find a large hole in the side of the kiddie pool, rendering it well nigh useless. He was even more dismayed one day when his fellow fellowlaborers, who were out weeding, noticed what sounded like some very large bees buzzing around them. This, interestingly enough, coincided with some very loud BANG noises coming from up the hill. Seems the limb leader hadn't noticed there were people pulling weeds.

Mr. Garden, no respecter of persons, hustled up the hill and told the limb leader in no uncertain terms that he was endangering the folks out back and to cease and desist immediately.

This same guy used to blast ducks out of season when they were swimming in the creek behind the house and barn.

I am not sure he meant to intimidate, (he was a very nice guy) but he sure scared the daylights out of most of us.

WG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like so many other aspects of thought and action, Wierwille and Martindale set the example for gun play that was followed by a great number (not all) twi leaders.

I believe that Vic's body guards were usually packing and the same for king okie...I believe this was fueled by the delusional self importance that they placed on their own lives...these "guys with the guns" were trained to believe that they were like secret service protecting the president...it was their job to protect the mog against the minions of hell...in other words, they were all whacko and capable of just about anything.

...and by the way, Geer wasn't the only "clergyman" carrying a gun at the famous clergy meeting...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course. And most heart attacks could be avoided if people stopped smoking, ate right, and exercised.

Most automobile accidents could be avoided if people didn't drive while drunk, tired, or distracted and drove safely at all times.

In other words, if people acted as they "should" lots of bad things wouldn't happen.

As for guns at TWI - I got out in the mid- 1980's. I never saw guns used for intimidation (but there was less of that back then). However I lived at HQ in the trailers with a couple guys who worked for vpw. One was his driver (before Chris Geer) and another I think drove another bus. One was cleaning/playing with his gun in the house and it went off. But bullet went through the wall - probably missing the head of other guy in the next room by inches. The attitude was "no harm, no foul" but it was pretty scary.

As a person who owns more than a few weapons, that is totally amazing. ANYONE who starts cleaning a weapon BEFORE making sure that it is unloaded first, DESERVES to get shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...and by the way, Geer wasn't the only "clergyman" carrying a gun at the famous clergy meeting...

One has to wonder...

"Honey, I'm off to the the clergy meeting at HQ. I'm bringing my Smith and Wesson."

:blink: :blink: :blink:

W T F!!

Just how much mistrust was already present?

As a person who owns more than a few weapons, that is totally amazing. ANYONE who starts cleaning a weapon BEFORE making sure that it is unloaded first, DESERVES to get shot.

Bluze- I agree. My godmother became a paraplegic the day her policeman husband was cleaning his gun (he thought the gun was empty but there was one in the chamber and he left the safety off.) The bullet ricocheted two rooms away and severed her spinal cord.

Sorry for the :offtopic:

Edited by doojable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...