yeah the lease is in both our names. i don't know. I don't feel like i need to move out. she isn't like pressuring me to go or anything. and I really have no fear whatsoever that the way is going to suck me in or i will feel the need to take classes.
i am very firm in my faith, even more so reading everything about the way and finding verses and explanations that debunk their beliefs on my own. it really has strengthened my faith emmensely.
I am going to confront her about the guys and just tell her that I feel convicted and that as christian girls I don't think we should have guys sleeping over.
If it gets too crazy then I will find a way to leave. But for now I will just continue being her friend. and I will probably not go to one of her fellowships. thanks for all the advice guys. you really have helped me out in so many ways and I couldn't be more thankful!!! LOVE!
yeah the lease is in both our names. i don't know. I don't feel like i need to move out. she isn't like pressuring me to go or anything. and I really have no fear whatsoever that the way is going to suck me in or i will feel the need to take classes.
i am very firm in my faith, even more so reading everything about the way and finding verses and explanations that debunk their beliefs on my own. it really has strengthened my faith emmensely.
I am going to confront her about the guys and just tell her that I feel convicted and that as christian girls I don't think we should have guys sleeping over.
If it gets too crazy then I will find a way to leave. But for now I will just continue being her friend. and I will probably not go to one of her fellowships. thanks for all the advice guys. you really have helped me out in so many ways and I couldn't be more thankful!!! LOVE!
If you get flack from her about the guys sleepign over, go to fellowship. Tell her fellowship coordinator you dont' think it's right for her to be sleeping with guys at your apartment and that you don't think it's a good example of what she's trying to portray. Then let her deal with the aftermath of it. I do believe TWI is now teaching that sex before marriage is not OK. Of course, they can say that because it makes them appear to not be hypocrital. Most probably practice something else.
I think it's disrespectful for her to bring men over for sex unless you both agreed it was ok before moving in together.
I'd also avoid going to any twi functions with her. it will be unpleasant for you because they will pressure you and search for cracks in your faith. they love arguing and being right. it'd be a huge waste of your time, unless the only topic was your roommate bringing men over for sex.
<snip>
I do believe TWI is now teaching that sex before marriage is not OK. Of course, they can say that because it makes them appear to not be hypocrital. Most probably practice something else.
</snip>
yeah, that horribly boring class they put together a few years ago was pretty explicit about no sex outside of the marriage.
They changed their minds about sex outside marriage being okay? It's not okay now? What chapter and verse are they using for that? How do they square that with the previous teachings that it IS okay? Have they said what is allowed - a hug, a kiss (gulp, what sort?), no touching, no touching below the waist?
I guess they can't actually come out and say, "WE WERE WRONG" because officially the "sleep with whoever you like" doctrine was never official policy even though widely practiced among the "spiritually mature."
What, are they going mainstream about something :blink: ?
Dorian: It's almost surprising that the Way haven't tried ousting you anyway, putting pressure on her to get a new room mate. They really don't like their people living with "unbelievers" which includes Christians that go to mainstream churches. They may take the view that it makes your roomie weak.
...but i also told her if I went i would like her to come to my church with me and she replied "well since I know they won't be speaking truth, i don't know what I would benefit from it". golly, she is so hard to talk to. it is so stressful!
and when i told her i would go to see her side of things she said "there is no side, this is the truth and the only way" blah!!
but i wasn't saying anything mean towards her , but just listened and asked questions. it is really hard to talk to her anyway with anything regarding God, because she always has to give her two cents and "there is no debating the word" so I can never have a stress free conversation with her about God.
This is a sad commentary, but a common one in fundamentalism. These groups claim to have the only truth. It's hard to admit you might not. I know. I was just like the friend you described until one day I cracked open.
Check out www.TED.com for quick 3 minute talks on the subject by Karen Armstrong. Just type her name in the Search field. You might be surprised at what you discover.
They changed their minds about sex outside marriage being okay? It's not okay now? What chapter and verse are they using for that? How do they square that with the previous teachings that it IS okay? Have they said what is allowed - a hug, a kiss (gulp, what sort?), no touching, no touching below the waist?
I guess they can't actually come out and say, "WE WERE WRONG" because officially the "sleep with whoever you like" doctrine was never official policy even though widely practiced among the "spiritually mature."
What, are they going mainstream about something :blink: ?
Dorian: It's almost surprising that the Way haven't tried ousting you anyway, putting pressure on her to get a new room mate. They really don't like their people living with "unbelievers" which includes Christians that go to mainstream churches. They may take the view that it makes your roomie weak.
Are you sure that's NOT the reason she's pushing for him to show up?
Are you sure that's NOT the reason she's pushing for him to show up?
As I recall when I was in TWI tehy did not teach it was okay to have sex outside of marriage.. at the class and twig level ..
I believe what was taught or understood was that if you were "Spiritually Mature" you could handle it.. but the rest of us were not supposedly able..and I am pretty sure this was what was taught at the corps level because that is who I heard it from was Corps.
The room mate may be totally buying into the I am spiritualy Mature and there are no laws of God that I need to follow.
As I recall when I was in TWI tehy did not teach it was okay to have sex outside of marriage.. at the class and twig level ..
I believe what was taught or understood was that if you were "Spiritually Mature" you could handle it.. but the rest of us were not supposedly able..and I am pretty sure this was what was taught at the corps level because that is who I heard it from was Corps.
The room mate may be totally buying into the I am spiritualy Mature and there are no laws of God that I need to follow.
No doubt about it. They definitely taught (publicly) that sex outside of marriage was taboo.
(Refer to CF&S class if in doubt.)
In fact, in Fellow Laborers, anyone who did have sex, and was found out, was thrown out in the middle of the night. See ya later, alligator. Have a nice life. Get outta Dodge before the Sun comes up. Celibacy was the behavior du jour back in the '70's. The WOW's were told, "Keep it in your pants." 'Course, we're talkin' 'bout your everyday peon, here. (Joe B. Leever) The ministry working class, if you will. Meanwhile, back at his majesty's royal rolling palace, a completely different scenario was being played out. "Sexual healing" for the "spiritually mature." Like the Land of Oz before the curtain was pulled back. Follow the yellow brick road. Follow it until TWI is a distant speck in the rear-view. And then keep going.
As I recall when I was in TWI tehy did not teach it was okay to have sex outside of marriage.. at the class and twig level ..
I believe what was taught or understood was that if you were "Spiritually Mature" you could handle it.. but the rest of us were not supposedly able..and I am pretty sure this was what was taught at the corps level because that is who I heard it from was Corps.
The room mate may be totally buying into the I am spiritualy Mature and there are no laws of God that I need to follow.
It's funny how different things were depending on the leader$h*t. There was a wife of a BC who said to go get laid even if it was an unbeliever because they couldn't have people walking around tight-a$$ed and legalistic.
what I wonder.. how many of these guys get an invitation to a nice bible fellowship the next morning..
it's an honest question.
it's "how they get them in da way".. at least insinutated in another thread once.. "date and switch".. and the guy ends up getting "undersheherded' by a guy named Bubba or something..
yeah that is what i was thinking. cause i can hear her sometimes telling them about God and stuff....that is what it seems to me she is doing. but i don't know. it is all very confusing.
I'm sorry if I seem a little slow, but even though I understand Dorian's situatiuon I do not understand the names that you reference or exactly what you are going for even though it's clear to me that you'de like to see Dorian's roomate get some help.
It's just that I don't know exactly what you think is the right thing to do.....
Google "David Berg".. it's some pretty screwed up crap..
now Berg taught it openly..
da way? Naw. Outside of one side of the mouth its' "sex isn't ok unless it's with a spouse (of opposite sex).. " then on the other hand.. at least the way I read it, a "follower" uses is for a WITNESSING TOOL? On a practical level.. it's the same foul, insidious doctrine. Somehow it's justified.. at least in one person's mind.
I think it takes a serious amount of sickness and/or coercion for a person to compromise to that extent.. for whatever reason..
the pressure to "perform".. "get results"..it's leading some kids to their deaths..
it's just the way I read this.. and I KNOW the way monitors every post on this site..
if the twi leaders reading here figure out who the girl is and decide to do something about it, it will more than likely be one of those closed-door sessions where she's brow-beaten for shaming "the ministry", or they'll throw her out, which would be the better of the two in my mind if she can get some help. twi won't help her. if she's a bad witness, they'll get rid of her because they don't like having blemishes.
The things I remember from the old days was that TWI had a "culture" that allowed women and men to use dating/sex to get people into the class.
I got involved at first because I wanted to understand the bible and I signed up the class the very first night that I was witnessed to. The reason that I was witnessed to was (and I'm not kidding here) is because I went over to their house to warn them about some kids that I had just seen checking their basement windows for access to their house. They didn't even invite me in, I asked to come in when they said that they were studying the bible. I told them that I wanted the class before they even mentioned that it was available, they mentioned a class, I said that I want it, NOW.
Leadership then moved me to a new twig. I was the only guy...... I was pretty much distracted from my real interest by several pretty distractions. They said God loved me and I got some make out time with some of them. I think the biblical term for me was at the very least a fool. My life as a new believer was soon a toxic mix of wanting to know the bible and chasing skirt.
At the time I did not know that Wierwille was a sexual predator, but it does not surprise me at all to realise that TWI culture allowed dumbazz me to do the things that I did and still think that things were o.k. I WISH THAT I KNEW THEN WHAT I KNEW NOW.....
Things went on like they are going on with Dorian's roomate without leadership sanction too, it happened to me. But it really messed up my life too.....
To make a long story short, unless leadership specifically sanctions shenanigans like these they have deniability even if they secretly knew things like this were going on. I am responsible for what I did, period.
I believe Wierwille is responsible for what he did too. except with his position he is accountable for even more, he was responsible for how his scumbag life built a "culture" of fornication even if in specific instances they were done without his knowledge and his leadership kids have deniability in certain cases.
(added in editing)
Just so you know, I may have to leave at any time. I'll just follow up on this conversation when I can if I have to go.
I've gotta go Ham, but I hear what you are saying.
IMO if they cannot be truthful then they are still caught in the scum and muck. It is not even a difficult call for me if they ARE STILL LYING. DUUUHHH!
The "date/switch" game was not just some isolated thing that some WOW's stumbled on out of desperation to sell the class. It came all the way from HQ. Consider this. The class I took in 1972 was run by someone sent by HQ. He was not a local. The guy and gal, and all the other area believers, kept their relationship completely under wraps until I discovered it myself by accident after session 5 or 6. Then, I suddenly found myself being undershepharded by a person of my own gender. They convinced me that since I had already invested so much time and money in it, ($65 was a week's pay back then.) I should at least go ahead and finish it. It was too late to back out by then. I was hooked. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if something like that is going on with the situation being discussed. And you know what? It wouldn't even matter if there is sex going on or not, it's still a deceptive practice that's been ongoing for decades. So much for the innocence of "the good old days."
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doriangreen
yeah the lease is in both our names. i don't know. I don't feel like i need to move out. she isn't like pressuring me to go or anything. and I really have no fear whatsoever that the way is going to suck me in or i will feel the need to take classes.
i am very firm in my faith, even more so reading everything about the way and finding verses and explanations that debunk their beliefs on my own. it really has strengthened my faith emmensely.
I am going to confront her about the guys and just tell her that I feel convicted and that as christian girls I don't think we should have guys sleeping over.
If it gets too crazy then I will find a way to leave. But for now I will just continue being her friend. and I will probably not go to one of her fellowships. thanks for all the advice guys. you really have helped me out in so many ways and I couldn't be more thankful!!! LOVE!
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Nottawayfer
If you get flack from her about the guys sleepign over, go to fellowship. Tell her fellowship coordinator you dont' think it's right for her to be sleeping with guys at your apartment and that you don't think it's a good example of what she's trying to portray. Then let her deal with the aftermath of it. I do believe TWI is now teaching that sex before marriage is not OK. Of course, they can say that because it makes them appear to not be hypocrital. Most probably practice something else.
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potato
I think it's disrespectful for her to bring men over for sex unless you both agreed it was ok before moving in together.
I'd also avoid going to any twi functions with her. it will be unpleasant for you because they will pressure you and search for cracks in your faith. they love arguing and being right. it'd be a huge waste of your time, unless the only topic was your roommate bringing men over for sex.
yeah, that horribly boring class they put together a few years ago was pretty explicit about no sex outside of the marriage.
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Twinky
They changed their minds about sex outside marriage being okay? It's not okay now? What chapter and verse are they using for that? How do they square that with the previous teachings that it IS okay? Have they said what is allowed - a hug, a kiss (gulp, what sort?), no touching, no touching below the waist?
I guess they can't actually come out and say, "WE WERE WRONG" because officially the "sleep with whoever you like" doctrine was never official policy even though widely practiced among the "spiritually mature."
What, are they going mainstream about something :blink: ?
Dorian: It's almost surprising that the Way haven't tried ousting you anyway, putting pressure on her to get a new room mate. They really don't like their people living with "unbelievers" which includes Christians that go to mainstream churches. They may take the view that it makes your roomie weak.
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penworks
This is a sad commentary, but a common one in fundamentalism. These groups claim to have the only truth. It's hard to admit you might not. I know. I was just like the friend you described until one day I cracked open.
Check out www.TED.com for quick 3 minute talks on the subject by Karen Armstrong. Just type her name in the Search field. You might be surprised at what you discover.
Good night and good luck.
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WordWolf
Are you sure that's NOT the reason she's pushing for him to show up?
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leafytwiglet
As I recall when I was in TWI tehy did not teach it was okay to have sex outside of marriage.. at the class and twig level ..
I believe what was taught or understood was that if you were "Spiritually Mature" you could handle it.. but the rest of us were not supposedly able..and I am pretty sure this was what was taught at the corps level because that is who I heard it from was Corps.
The room mate may be totally buying into the I am spiritualy Mature and there are no laws of God that I need to follow.
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waysider
No doubt about it. They definitely taught (publicly) that sex outside of marriage was taboo.
(Refer to CF&S class if in doubt.)
In fact, in Fellow Laborers, anyone who did have sex, and was found out, was thrown out in the middle of the night. See ya later, alligator. Have a nice life. Get outta Dodge before the Sun comes up. Celibacy was the behavior du jour back in the '70's. The WOW's were told, "Keep it in your pants." 'Course, we're talkin' 'bout your everyday peon, here. (Joe B. Leever) The ministry working class, if you will. Meanwhile, back at his majesty's royal rolling palace, a completely different scenario was being played out. "Sexual healing" for the "spiritually mature." Like the Land of Oz before the curtain was pulled back. Follow the yellow brick road. Follow it until TWI is a distant speck in the rear-view. And then keep going.
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Nottawayfer
It's funny how different things were depending on the leader$h*t. There was a wife of a BC who said to go get laid even if it was an unbeliever because they couldn't have people walking around tight-a$$ed and legalistic.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Whatever "doctrine" twi taught regarding sex, their actions spoke loudly.
...don't forget, when Wierwille went to California to visit the Way west...the first thing he asked Jimmy Doop was to take him to a sex orgy.
They always had double standards...and that makes their "doctrines" pretty lame as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't let a "way believer" within a 1000 feet of where I sleep...isn't that the distance that a sex offender has to stay away from a school?
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Ham
what I wonder.. how many of these guys get an invitation to a nice bible fellowship the next morning..
it's an honest question.
it's "how they get them in da way".. at least insinutated in another thread once.. "date and switch".. and the guy ends up getting "undersheherded' by a guy named Bubba or something..
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doriangreen
yeah that is what i was thinking. cause i can hear her sometimes telling them about God and stuff....that is what it seems to me she is doing. but i don't know. it is all very confusing.
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waysider
I can personally testify to the practice of "date and switch".
That's what got me into "the class", though there was actually no sex involved.
About midway through the class I found out she was engaged to the guy running the class.
I suppose it just slipped her mind to mention it to me. <_<
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Ham
*Mr* linder, or whoever your fill in is here.. your organization is starting to look like David Bergs..
It's starting to look like "illicit" sex is wrong in your organization, unless it *serves* a *mog's* needs, or used as a "witnessing tool"..
you have a rabidly, devout "follower" here.. that's willing to put their body on the line, for one reason or another..
I'd wake up, if I were you numbnuts..
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Ham
and here's what you are going to do:
You're not going to confront and kick this person out. You are going to get this girl some *real* bonafide HELP.
You call in your second rate hacks called region coordinators, limb staff.. the blood is on your own head..
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Ham
do I have to tell you EVERYTHING? Like.. the situation is URGENT- NOW might be a good time to do something?
to say I find this "troubling" is an understatement..
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JeffSjo
Hi Ham,
I'm sorry if I seem a little slow, but even though I understand Dorian's situatiuon I do not understand the names that you reference or exactly what you are going for even though it's clear to me that you'de like to see Dorian's roomate get some help.
It's just that I don't know exactly what you think is the right thing to do.....
PEACE,
JEFF
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Ham
Google "David Berg".. it's some pretty screwed up crap..
now Berg taught it openly..
da way? Naw. Outside of one side of the mouth its' "sex isn't ok unless it's with a spouse (of opposite sex).. " then on the other hand.. at least the way I read it, a "follower" uses is for a WITNESSING TOOL? On a practical level.. it's the same foul, insidious doctrine. Somehow it's justified.. at least in one person's mind.
I think it takes a serious amount of sickness and/or coercion for a person to compromise to that extent.. for whatever reason..
the pressure to "perform".. "get results"..it's leading some kids to their deaths..
it's just the way I read this.. and I KNOW the way monitors every post on this site..
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potato
if the twi leaders reading here figure out who the girl is and decide to do something about it, it will more than likely be one of those closed-door sessions where she's brow-beaten for shaming "the ministry", or they'll throw her out, which would be the better of the two in my mind if she can get some help. twi won't help her. if she's a bad witness, they'll get rid of her because they don't like having blemishes.
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JeffSjo
The things I remember from the old days was that TWI had a "culture" that allowed women and men to use dating/sex to get people into the class.
I got involved at first because I wanted to understand the bible and I signed up the class the very first night that I was witnessed to. The reason that I was witnessed to was (and I'm not kidding here) is because I went over to their house to warn them about some kids that I had just seen checking their basement windows for access to their house. They didn't even invite me in, I asked to come in when they said that they were studying the bible. I told them that I wanted the class before they even mentioned that it was available, they mentioned a class, I said that I want it, NOW.
Leadership then moved me to a new twig. I was the only guy...... I was pretty much distracted from my real interest by several pretty distractions. They said God loved me and I got some make out time with some of them. I think the biblical term for me was at the very least a fool. My life as a new believer was soon a toxic mix of wanting to know the bible and chasing skirt.
At the time I did not know that Wierwille was a sexual predator, but it does not surprise me at all to realise that TWI culture allowed dumbazz me to do the things that I did and still think that things were o.k. I WISH THAT I KNEW THEN WHAT I KNEW NOW.....
Things went on like they are going on with Dorian's roomate without leadership sanction too, it happened to me. But it really messed up my life too.....
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JeffSjo
To make a long story short, unless leadership specifically sanctions shenanigans like these they have deniability even if they secretly knew things like this were going on. I am responsible for what I did, period.
I believe Wierwille is responsible for what he did too. except with his position he is accountable for even more, he was responsible for how his scumbag life built a "culture" of fornication even if in specific instances they were done without his knowledge and his leadership kids have deniability in certain cases.
(added in editing)
Just so you know, I may have to leave at any time. I'll just follow up on this conversation when I can if I have to go.
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Ham
and here is the perfect "opportunity" for twi to throw off the shackles of a culture built on fornication..
starting with public recantations of those at the top..
well, I can dream, can't I?
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JeffSjo
I've gotta go Ham, but I hear what you are saying.
IMO if they cannot be truthful then they are still caught in the scum and muck. It is not even a difficult call for me if they ARE STILL LYING. DUUUHHH!
(edited for spelling)
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waysider
The "date/switch" game was not just some isolated thing that some WOW's stumbled on out of desperation to sell the class. It came all the way from HQ. Consider this. The class I took in 1972 was run by someone sent by HQ. He was not a local. The guy and gal, and all the other area believers, kept their relationship completely under wraps until I discovered it myself by accident after session 5 or 6. Then, I suddenly found myself being undershepharded by a person of my own gender. They convinced me that since I had already invested so much time and money in it, ($65 was a week's pay back then.) I should at least go ahead and finish it. It was too late to back out by then. I was hooked. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if something like that is going on with the situation being discussed. And you know what? It wouldn't even matter if there is sex going on or not, it's still a deceptive practice that's been ongoing for decades. So much for the innocence of "the good old days."
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