all of this "discussion" doesn't change much of the facts though.. we have an (apparently) recalcitrant, unrepentant vp bootlicker who, in lieu of "straightening things out" (as if they even could be..) just moving on to another flock..
I'd LIKE to believe different.. but the facts don't quite bear that out..
This finger pointing seems too general. I don't know of any abuse performed by Vince, but why don't the folks who feel they were abused go to Vince personally themselves and ask for an apology? I think that'd be the right way to go about it. Vince is still around and having known him I think he'd be willing to apologize if he knew someone was hurting. Geeze. Get up one on one, face to face, man to man, instead of anonymous internet chatter which solves nothing.
I don't know of any abuse performed by Vince, but why don't the folks who feel they were abused go to Vince personally themselves and ask for an apology? I think that'd be the right way to go about it.
Really? Don't you think that if he were going to apologize that he wouldn't need to be asked? The only time I ever asked someone to apologize to me for hurting me, I was met with stone cold silence. That's when I figured out that people who feel they've done something wrong tend to apologize and those who don't, don't.
This finger pointing seems too general. I don't know of any abuse performed by Vince, but why don't the folks who feel they were abused go to Vince personally themselves and ask for an apology? I think that'd be the right way to go about it. Vince is still around and having known him I think he'd be willing to apologize if he knew someone was hurting. Geeze. Get up one on one, face to face, man to man, instead of anonymous internet chatter which solves nothing.
High ther MR.ANONYMOUS, ( that is you Oldiesman)
If TWI leadership hadn't long ago established behavioral norms that came from the sociopathic Wierwille the type of action that you describe might actually accomplish something. But a lot of people here have amply described ministry leasdership behavior that is abusive on several levels. And it is all too easy to be fairly certain that TWI leadership would not respond with what most of us would call sorrow and/or human decency.
I would welcome hearing that TWI leadrship took responsibility for it's behavior publically. If this has happened please tell me. By accountability, I of course mean a public accounting of there indecencies. If someone who's known Vince for as long as DWBH has hasn't heard him acount for his wrongs then what chance does Joe believer who has not the status in TWI that leadership was taught to honor.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT I'M SAYING PERHAPS YOU COULD DO ME THE PLEASURE OF GIVING ME SOME IDEA OF WHO I'M TALKING TO OLDIES. Heck, I know better than to expect someone as forthright as you to try for a face to face Oldies. How about your name. hehehe. There, see how I expect less of you than you require of abuse victims. Your name doesn't seem like too much for me to ask Oldies.
Back to the topic.....
I really do not understand why Vince feels that he has any right to run any kind of church. He himself has admitted that he was part of the problem in TWI. But of course with this pathetic admission of guilt but no accountabitlity he has folks following him.
Soon after realizing what kind of things Wierwille did and taught people like Finnigan, Lynn, and Martindale to do it became clear to me that they were trained in God's Word by one of the worst kind of scumbuckets that I can think of, and they've called him their Father in the Word. And personally I am certain that the whole concept of knowing the word like it has not been known since the first century was a bunch of bull crap.
So for me the fact that Vince's TWI background was so entrenched in abuse and delusion and that he has done nothing that illistrated public accountability for any of this makes him a bad man....period. Heck, he hasn't even sought out an old and dear(?) aquantaince like DWBH says that he is.
OH, YEAH, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IT IS NOT LOVE THAT VINCE IS OOZING.
In my bible turning from wickedness includes some actiion other than silence. What exactly has Vince fessed up to, really?
his WEBSITE seems too general. "I was part of the problem.." as in?
I will always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry without which I don’t think I would have lived to see thirty.
there is at least one documented fallacy in that statement.. can you spot it?
the other possibly is "I don't think I would have lived to see thirty".. I think maybe more "accurately".. "I was CONVINCED that without herr vicster's and ministry's 'goodness' I woudn't have lived to see thirty"..
who convinced him? It was a tired old story floating around.. even the character who introduced me to the ministry made the same claim. Of course, he wasn't near thirty at the time..
but like you said.. "vincy" didn't PERSONALLY do me any wrong.. these are just my impressions, after perusing his internet site..
and adding Juedes comments, and others..
just from my own opinion and reflection.. I'd say he never really "came clean" as to his involvement and the ramifications of his involvement in da way..
all of this "discussion" doesn't change much of the facts though.. we have an (apparently) recalcitrant, unrepentant vp bootlicker who, in lieu of "straightening things out" (as if they even could be..) just moving on to another flock..
I'd LIKE to believe different.. but the facts don't quite bear that out..
Really ? Exactly how many facts have you personally discussed. Or do you just believe what you hear. How much time have you invested in actually looking at what he does or does not do? Doctrine aside how familiar are you with what he does day to day for others? How many of their materials have you read or heard where he discusses what he thinks? No you took your facts from a person not even involved ,who has an obvious agenda with the Way and any of it's people and accepted his sideline comments as facts. Oh and then there is DWBH who based his comments on what he knew some 20 years ago, so I'll ask you, are you the same person that you were 20 years ago? Do you feel the same about the Way as you did? I'd guess not, so why would you accept as facts someone's recollection of what someone was 20 years ago as factual as to what they are today?
Well, you like facts when they support your position it seems.
No doubt people change in 20 years, but genuine Christians will follow their scriptural guidelines...ie repent, and make amends to those you have wronged.
If this was a personal priority, I imagine that Vince and the other off shoot leaders would have made that effort to apologize. If people are genuinely repentant they KNOW what they have done, they KNOW the damage inflicted....They then would leave no stone unturned to undo their wrong, to heal an old wound that they created to make it right. That is just what people with the spirit of God alive in them do....they don`t have to be asked.
I imagine repentance and seeking forgiveness just isn`t that big a deal to any of these off shoot leaders though, because of the basic belief system. They have built their houses on rotten flawed foundations...sure sure, it looks like they have been repaired, strengthened, BUT .. no matter how pretty the structures they have erected on the flawed foundation, they cannot stand.
Well, you like facts when they support your position it seems.
No doubt people change in 20 years, but genuine Christians will follow their scriptural guidelines...ie repent, and make amends to those you have wronged.
If this was a personal priority, I imagine that Vince and the other off shoot leaders would have made that effort to apologize. If people are genuinely repentant they KNOW what they have done, they KNOW the damage inflicted....They then would leave no stone unturned to undo their wrong, to heal an old wound that they created to make it right. That is just what people with the spirit of God alive in them do....they don`t have to be asked.
I imagine repentance and seeking forgiveness just isn`t that big a deal to any of these off shoot leaders though, because of the basic belief system. They have built their houses on rotten flawed foundations...sure sure, it looks like they have been repaired, strengthened, BUT .. no matter how pretty the structures they have erected on the flawed foundation, they cannot stand.
It really wouldn't take a lot of work to look up even the "top few" like DWBH and apologize.
It really wouldn't take a lot of work to write up a webpage and apologize in general for having been a real lcm
to people, and you wouldn't even have to name the names of the people you REMEMBER hurting.
Even a minimal effort would say something- it would say you cared, at least a little.
With NO effort, that says something else- that you don't care, not even a little.
Often, silence is a considerable message all by itself.
Really? Don't you think that if he were going to apologize that he wouldn't need to be asked?
Perhaps but not always. Because among other things it may not be so readily apparent that he did something wrong or caused hurt in a particular instance. He may think he was correct, for whatever reason. So that is why it is incumbent for the hurting party to go directly one on one to the person who they think caused the hurt. Matthew 18:15
Perhaps but not always. Because among other things it may not be so readily apparent that he did something wrong or caused hurt in a particular instance. He may think he was correct, for whatever reason. So that is why it is incumbent for the hurting party to go directly one on one to the person who they think caused the hurt. Matthew 18:15
Matthew 18:15 NASB
If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
(With a notation that some late manuscripts add "against you".)
Oldies, I have no doubts as to ones ability to quote scripture in order to make ungodly behavior seem acceptable and appropriate, or to deny accepting the necessary responsibility. It is a trademark of twi doctrine. That still does not make ones lack of repentance or seeking to make amends right or the actions of a genuine Christian.
I also have absolutely no doubt that Vince and other leaders are convinced of the rightness of their actions, it is still the same old argument, blaming others for what you yourself have done, and why you yourself can dodge responsibility....weeeeell it is all the peoples fault that were wronged because THEEEY haven`t sought out the perpetrator to demand an apology....
Baaah ... if Vince or John, or any of the rest of em had ANY inkling of the harm they have caused, if they gave a damn at all....they would be seeking to do whatever they could to make it right. That is what REAL Christians do.
As far as I can see they are still just playing Christian, and it isn`t doing them any favors to play along and pretend that what they do is ok, seriously.... What if folks are told one day to *depart for I knew you not* by Jesus because nobody ever held them accountable for their behavior? How will folks ever make things right if they never shed the arrogance of thinking that they are right in whatever they do?
Perhaps but not always. Because among other things it may not be so readily apparent that he did something wrong or caused hurt in a particular instance. He may think he was correct, for whatever reason. So that is why it is incumbent for the hurting party to go directly one on one to the person who they think caused the hurt. Matthew 18:15
Matthew 18:15 NASB
If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
(With a notation that some late manuscripts add "against you".)
Thanks Wordwolf... exactly the point ... face to face, one on one in private.
NOT the point.
Read it again. Your assertion was that, specifically, a person who was hurt by VF should go to VF and address it in private.
That has NOTHING to do with what the ACTUAL VERSE says.
It's about addressing a brother THAT SINNED. Period.
Nothing about "the hurting party".
Luke 17:3
Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
This business of "it's about someone who hurt you" is what vpw referred to as "private interpretation."
(Which itself was an example of what he called "private interpretation.")
Read it again. Your assertion was that, specifically, a person who was hurt by VF should go to VF and address it in private.
right, adding "as opposed to anonymous internet chatter which solves nothing."
I suppose a couple of verses about gossip and backbiting may have been appropriate as well, but heaven forbid greasepot posters (myself included in the mix) be occasionally reminded of those things the scriptures ask us not to do, like gossip and backbite, and be reminded about those things the scriptures ask us to do, like speaking one on one to a brother in private.
It isn`t gossip or back biting if it is true. Otherwise I suppose Jesus is as guilty as all us bad old Greasespotters for talking about pharacees and saducees, in other words, creeps that hurt people in God`s name.
You tell him that he is a back biter or a gossip ....lol
Just another good sounding excuse to get people to shut up about information and experiences that makes one uncomfortable, imo.
It isn`t gossip or back biting if it is true. Otherwise I suppose Jesus is as guilty as all us bad old Greasespotters for talking about pharacees and saducees, in other words, creeps that hurt people in God`s name.
You tell him that he is a back biter or a gossip ....lol
Just another good sounding excuse to get people to shut up about information and experiences that makes one uncomfortable, imo.
Goodness geeze. To put your own anyones internet rants and harangues on the same moral equivalence as Jesus has got to be some serious Chutzpah.
Goodness geeze. To put your own anyones internet rants and harangues on the same moral equivalence as Jesus has got to be some serious Chutzpah.
I'm not sure at all what to do about the "Chutzpah" part of that statement Oldies. Some people show chutzpah, and if I'm not wrong that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation.
For someone whose avatar's name seems to imply that you are playing the oldies from TWI it seems odd to me that you give the words of Jesus any credence at all. Why I remember them mocking "red letter Christianity" when it suited them. Imagine how it seemed to me when these same words of Jesus that they mocked also judge TWI for their wickedness.
Heck, in a situation like this somebody has to have Chutzpah oldies. But my opinion is that for the most part you show Chutzpah in really bad and even revealing situations.
And you quite often nag people about their lack of Chutzpah even though you show no indication at all of even showing even a fraction of the chutzpah that they show by posting about their TWI abuse here.
If the difference between an internet harangue and good rebuke is the substance and the intentions of the poster I feel strongly that it is you Oldies who comes up short in this case.
(edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)
OK fine, then according to that statement "we" take the place of Christ when performing that manifestation.
That's not the only place in the PFAL series of classes it was either stated or implied that we took the place of the absent Christ. ("His eyes behind your eyes, his ears behind your ears--------When you walk down that street, it's Christ walking down that street------------") And it wasn't only in relation to that one specific "manifestation". But really, exactly how many examples does one need to to understand that it was, in fact, taught heavily?
So why single out Vic?
Simple.
He held himself out to be the chief example of living a lifestyle that exemplified this concept of representing "the absent Christ".
I single him out because, he not only promoted it, he used it to establish one of the fundamental tenets of The Way. This basic tenet has seemingly become an integral component of TWI offshoots as well.
I dunno Oldies, I have yet to call anybody whited sepulchers filled with disease and death, nor chased people about a temple with whips, nor flipped over tables...nor threatened people with mill stones about their necks and thrown in the water....now THAT took some serious guts.....I just talk about the spiritual frauds, the abusers and deceivers of our time lol.....but thanks anyway :)
Geez! A lot (not all) of youz guyz are so friggin lame! I see the same daggone subjects, arguments, complaints, by The Same People that I saw here years ago! I think that many of you have spent "more years in TWI" on the Internet than you actually spent when actually involved in TWI! There really is Life outside of TWI. You really need to fuggedaboudit (as Tony Soprano would say) and and check out LIFE on the OUTSIDE. Life out here is GREAT! I go to a lovely church for instance, and what I learned in TWI that was good, I share with others. And what I learn anew, I process and either utilize or discard. What is so hard about simply taking the good that we learned and discarding te bad and simply getting on with life? If any of you are in my age group (mid fifties), we don't have that many years left! Move with the good, jettison the bad! And be happy. Happy is GOOD not happy is BAD.
You may roast me for this, but this is all I have to say in this thread. I love you and want you to be happy and to move on. Bye.
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Tzaia
So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?
Ham
all of this "discussion" doesn't change much of the facts though.. we have an (apparently) recalcitrant, unrepentant vp bootlicker who, in lieu of "straightening things out" (as if they even could be..) just moving on to another flock..
I'd LIKE to believe different.. but the facts don't quite bear that out..
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Ham
I'm not entirely impressed with the "I was part of the problem" admission.. that was after pressure from Juedes, and others..
what in God's name, are you NOW doing any different? Just take vic's old jalopy.. paint it another shade of off color green?
it's just a little question.
Embroiled once again, in a fringe, unacredited "college", organization.. of sorts.
It didn't "work" the first time around.. what technically is really different?
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oldiesman
This finger pointing seems too general. I don't know of any abuse performed by Vince, but why don't the folks who feel they were abused go to Vince personally themselves and ask for an apology? I think that'd be the right way to go about it. Vince is still around and having known him I think he'd be willing to apologize if he knew someone was hurting. Geeze. Get up one on one, face to face, man to man, instead of anonymous internet chatter which solves nothing.
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Tzaia
Really? Don't you think that if he were going to apologize that he wouldn't need to be asked? The only time I ever asked someone to apologize to me for hurting me, I was met with stone cold silence. That's when I figured out that people who feel they've done something wrong tend to apologize and those who don't, don't.
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waysider
*************************************************
Advanced Class, 1971--page 31
Gifts Of Healings
What it is:
"It is our taking the place of Jesus Christ here upon Earth."
"---our taking the place of Jesus Christ------"
*****************************************************
According to Wierwille, we had to take his place-----because, according to the AC class, he is absent!
(How much plainer can it be?)
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JeffSjo
High ther MR.ANONYMOUS, ( that is you Oldiesman)
If TWI leadership hadn't long ago established behavioral norms that came from the sociopathic Wierwille the type of action that you describe might actually accomplish something. But a lot of people here have amply described ministry leasdership behavior that is abusive on several levels. And it is all too easy to be fairly certain that TWI leadership would not respond with what most of us would call sorrow and/or human decency.
I would welcome hearing that TWI leadrship took responsibility for it's behavior publically. If this has happened please tell me. By accountability, I of course mean a public accounting of there indecencies. If someone who's known Vince for as long as DWBH has hasn't heard him acount for his wrongs then what chance does Joe believer who has not the status in TWI that leadership was taught to honor.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT I'M SAYING PERHAPS YOU COULD DO ME THE PLEASURE OF GIVING ME SOME IDEA OF WHO I'M TALKING TO OLDIES. Heck, I know better than to expect someone as forthright as you to try for a face to face Oldies. How about your name. hehehe. There, see how I expect less of you than you require of abuse victims. Your name doesn't seem like too much for me to ask Oldies.
Back to the topic.....
I really do not understand why Vince feels that he has any right to run any kind of church. He himself has admitted that he was part of the problem in TWI. But of course with this pathetic admission of guilt but no accountabitlity he has folks following him.
Soon after realizing what kind of things Wierwille did and taught people like Finnigan, Lynn, and Martindale to do it became clear to me that they were trained in God's Word by one of the worst kind of scumbuckets that I can think of, and they've called him their Father in the Word. And personally I am certain that the whole concept of knowing the word like it has not been known since the first century was a bunch of bull crap.
So for me the fact that Vince's TWI background was so entrenched in abuse and delusion and that he has done nothing that illistrated public accountability for any of this makes him a bad man....period. Heck, he hasn't even sought out an old and dear(?) aquantaince like DWBH says that he is.
OH, YEAH, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IT IS NOT LOVE THAT VINCE IS OOZING.
In my bible turning from wickedness includes some actiion other than silence. What exactly has Vince fessed up to, really?
(edited for grammar)
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Ham
his WEBSITE seems too general. "I was part of the problem.." as in?
there is at least one documented fallacy in that statement.. can you spot it?
the other possibly is "I don't think I would have lived to see thirty".. I think maybe more "accurately".. "I was CONVINCED that without herr vicster's and ministry's 'goodness' I woudn't have lived to see thirty"..
who convinced him? It was a tired old story floating around.. even the character who introduced me to the ministry made the same claim. Of course, he wasn't near thirty at the time..
but like you said.. "vincy" didn't PERSONALLY do me any wrong.. these are just my impressions, after perusing his internet site..
and adding Juedes comments, and others..
just from my own opinion and reflection.. I'd say he never really "came clean" as to his involvement and the ramifications of his involvement in da way..
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WhiteDove
Really ? Exactly how many facts have you personally discussed. Or do you just believe what you hear. How much time have you invested in actually looking at what he does or does not do? Doctrine aside how familiar are you with what he does day to day for others? How many of their materials have you read or heard where he discusses what he thinks? No you took your facts from a person not even involved ,who has an obvious agenda with the Way and any of it's people and accepted his sideline comments as facts. Oh and then there is DWBH who based his comments on what he knew some 20 years ago, so I'll ask you, are you the same person that you were 20 years ago? Do you feel the same about the Way as you did? I'd guess not, so why would you accept as facts someone's recollection of what someone was 20 years ago as factual as to what they are today?
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rascal
Well, you like facts when they support your position it seems.
No doubt people change in 20 years, but genuine Christians will follow their scriptural guidelines...ie repent, and make amends to those you have wronged.
If this was a personal priority, I imagine that Vince and the other off shoot leaders would have made that effort to apologize. If people are genuinely repentant they KNOW what they have done, they KNOW the damage inflicted....They then would leave no stone unturned to undo their wrong, to heal an old wound that they created to make it right. That is just what people with the spirit of God alive in them do....they don`t have to be asked.
I imagine repentance and seeking forgiveness just isn`t that big a deal to any of these off shoot leaders though, because of the basic belief system. They have built their houses on rotten flawed foundations...sure sure, it looks like they have been repaired, strengthened, BUT .. no matter how pretty the structures they have erected on the flawed foundation, they cannot stand.
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WordWolf
It really wouldn't take a lot of work to look up even the "top few" like DWBH and apologize.
It really wouldn't take a lot of work to write up a webpage and apologize in general for having been a real lcm
to people, and you wouldn't even have to name the names of the people you REMEMBER hurting.
Even a minimal effort would say something- it would say you cared, at least a little.
With NO effort, that says something else- that you don't care, not even a little.
Often, silence is a considerable message all by itself.
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oldiesman
OK fine, then according to that statement "we" take the place of Christ when performing that manifestation.
So why single out Vic?
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oldiesman
Perhaps but not always. Because among other things it may not be so readily apparent that he did something wrong or caused hurt in a particular instance. He may think he was correct, for whatever reason. So that is why it is incumbent for the hurting party to go directly one on one to the person who they think caused the hurt. Matthew 18:15
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WordWolf
Matthew 18:15 NASB
If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
(With a notation that some late manuscripts add "against you".)
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rascal
Oldies, I have no doubts as to ones ability to quote scripture in order to make ungodly behavior seem acceptable and appropriate, or to deny accepting the necessary responsibility. It is a trademark of twi doctrine. That still does not make ones lack of repentance or seeking to make amends right or the actions of a genuine Christian.
I also have absolutely no doubt that Vince and other leaders are convinced of the rightness of their actions, it is still the same old argument, blaming others for what you yourself have done, and why you yourself can dodge responsibility....weeeeell it is all the peoples fault that were wronged because THEEEY haven`t sought out the perpetrator to demand an apology....
Baaah ... if Vince or John, or any of the rest of em had ANY inkling of the harm they have caused, if they gave a damn at all....they would be seeking to do whatever they could to make it right. That is what REAL Christians do.
As far as I can see they are still just playing Christian, and it isn`t doing them any favors to play along and pretend that what they do is ok, seriously.... What if folks are told one day to *depart for I knew you not* by Jesus because nobody ever held them accountable for their behavior? How will folks ever make things right if they never shed the arrogance of thinking that they are right in whatever they do?
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oldiesman
Thanks Wordwolf... exactly the point ... face to face, one on one in private.
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WordWolf
NOT the point.
Read it again. Your assertion was that, specifically, a person who was hurt by VF should go to VF and address it in private.
That has NOTHING to do with what the ACTUAL VERSE says.
It's about addressing a brother THAT SINNED. Period.
Nothing about "the hurting party".
Luke 17:3
Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
This business of "it's about someone who hurt you" is what vpw referred to as "private interpretation."
(Which itself was an example of what he called "private interpretation.")
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oldiesman
right, adding "as opposed to anonymous internet chatter which solves nothing."
I suppose a couple of verses about gossip and backbiting may have been appropriate as well, but heaven forbid greasepot posters (myself included in the mix) be occasionally reminded of those things the scriptures ask us not to do, like gossip and backbite, and be reminded about those things the scriptures ask us to do, like speaking one on one to a brother in private.
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rascal
It isn`t gossip or back biting if it is true. Otherwise I suppose Jesus is as guilty as all us bad old Greasespotters for talking about pharacees and saducees, in other words, creeps that hurt people in God`s name.
You tell him that he is a back biter or a gossip ....lol
Just another good sounding excuse to get people to shut up about information and experiences that makes one uncomfortable, imo.
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oldiesman
Goodness geeze. To put your own anyones internet rants and harangues on the same moral equivalence as Jesus has got to be some serious Chutzpah.
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JeffSjo
I'm not sure at all what to do about the "Chutzpah" part of that statement Oldies. Some people show chutzpah, and if I'm not wrong that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation.
For someone whose avatar's name seems to imply that you are playing the oldies from TWI it seems odd to me that you give the words of Jesus any credence at all. Why I remember them mocking "red letter Christianity" when it suited them. Imagine how it seemed to me when these same words of Jesus that they mocked also judge TWI for their wickedness.
Heck, in a situation like this somebody has to have Chutzpah oldies. But my opinion is that for the most part you show Chutzpah in really bad and even revealing situations.
And you quite often nag people about their lack of Chutzpah even though you show no indication at all of even showing even a fraction of the chutzpah that they show by posting about their TWI abuse here.
If the difference between an internet harangue and good rebuke is the substance and the intentions of the poster I feel strongly that it is you Oldies who comes up short in this case.
(edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)
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waysider
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Ham
Anybody who is thankful to the "founder" of a religion.. a false prophet at the best, abusive, alcoholic sex maniac and false prophet at the worst..
even today..
words can't describe my contempt here..
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rascal
I dunno Oldies, I have yet to call anybody whited sepulchers filled with disease and death, nor chased people about a temple with whips, nor flipped over tables...nor threatened people with mill stones about their necks and thrown in the water....now THAT took some serious guts.....I just talk about the spiritual frauds, the abusers and deceivers of our time lol.....but thanks anyway :)
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ClayJay
Geez! A lot (not all) of youz guyz are so friggin lame! I see the same daggone subjects, arguments, complaints, by The Same People that I saw here years ago! I think that many of you have spent "more years in TWI" on the Internet than you actually spent when actually involved in TWI! There really is Life outside of TWI. You really need to fuggedaboudit (as Tony Soprano would say) and and check out LIFE on the OUTSIDE. Life out here is GREAT! I go to a lovely church for instance, and what I learned in TWI that was good, I share with others. And what I learn anew, I process and either utilize or discard. What is so hard about simply taking the good that we learned and discarding te bad and simply getting on with life? If any of you are in my age group (mid fifties), we don't have that many years left! Move with the good, jettison the bad! And be happy. Happy is GOOD not happy is BAD.
You may roast me for this, but this is all I have to say in this thread. I love you and want you to be happy and to move on. Bye.
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