except.. Lynn, geer, to*nsend, etc. etc.. despite first hand knowledge of his true character, they still revere the vicster's "holy" name..
still think it (da way) was the most SIGNIFICANT stronghold of "truth" due to his mighty holiness, vicster I..
you tell me.. if that's not confessing him as lord, it's a darn close second..
P I I believe they would tell you they are thankful for what he taught them from scripture. Not the same as confessing him as lord, Not even close. I'm thankful for what my history teacher taught me as well but he is not my lord ,or a replacement for Christ. It's quite possible to recognize someone for their contributions to your life without worshiping them. One event does not necessitate the other.
Lot of semantics---I first wrote about taking the place of the absent Christ----if "man of God" suits someone better than take that one instead---Wierwille did take that high falutin title to himself and set up the structure where he was at the top making the decisions of the "ministry" with very little or no oversight..and also claimed a direct pipeline to God.
The main contention I had was not on doctrinal differences that LHIM may have with TWI but that the structures are set up similarly, with one head honcho who holds near celebrity status with few checks, balances or oversights in the system.. Its inherently weak and invites all sorts of problems, potential problems and questions
I dont know how I got dragged into this...I am essentially in the same boat as Masterherbalist--i really dont care all that much what they do. They're adults and are responsible for their own lives. Ive moved on but Im also aware of the shortsightedness of the past and was just offering my viewpoint. If someone wants to think that its something completely different --fine have at it---but its the
Perhaps if you find someone who looked at Dr. Wierwille as a replacement for Christ... confessed him as Lord, then for that person, VPW was Lord. But I don't know of anyone who made VPW Lord and Saviour.
It simply is a fraudulent theory... intellectual gobbledygook and dishonesty at its lowest.
It probably would not be as hard as you think OM. Consider what it means to make someone Lord in your life? Obedience. . . the suggestion of the MOG is tantamount. . . . who one listens to(Who taught us these "great" truths). . . who one considers the final authority. . . who one follows. . . who one emulates. . .
Now, if the actual Lord is absent(out of the picture). . . it is not hard to consider someone else in His place.
It was not blatant. . it was subtle.
Without mouthing the words VP is Lord. . . our actions said exactly that. . . we considered Him in place of the absent Christ. . . who we shamefully relugated to the end of a prayer or the means to an end.
Seems we all to some extent did replace Jesus with VP or some other wannabe leadership. That is what happens in most groups like TWI. . . that is why they usually fall apart when the big guy departs this earth. . . unless they get an equally charasmatic new leader, or they splinter into little groups. . . each with their own little MOG.
It probably would not be as hard as you think OM. Consider what it means to make someone Lord in your life? Obedience. . . the suggestion of the MOG is tantamount. . . . who one listens to(Who taught us these "great" truths). . . who one considers the final authority. . . who one follows. . . who one emulates. . .
Now, if the actual Lord is absent(out of the picture). . . it is not hard to consider someone else in His place.
It was not blatant. . it was subtle.
Without mouthing the words VP is Lord. . . our actions said exactly that. . . we considered Him in place of the absent Christ. . . who we shamefully relugated to the end of a prayer or the means to an end.
Seems we all to some extent did replace Jesus with VP or some other wannabe leadership. That is what happens in most groups like TWI. . . that is why they usually fall apart when the big guy departs this earth. . . unless they get an equally charasmatic new leader, or they splinter into little groups. . . each with their own little MOG.
Just my opinion.
Is that mouse in your pocket named we? Because if not we don't apply to me. in which case you can supply I.
Well, you can include me in your "we" Geisha. I was going to post a similar thought (along with the "a suggestion is tantamount to a command, and "God taught ME like it hasn't been known since...", and the requisite fawning and servile obeisance stuff).
Maybe YOU didn't join in with the rest of us servile lackies Mr. Dove. But there were certainly plenty of us mindless, Stepford-wife, dipchits, standing in line to lick Mr. Wierwille's azz every time He made a dramatic entrance. And He played the role and encouraged the sycophant behavior at every opportunity. He had a "Messiah" complex, beyond any rational shadow of a doubt...
Simple. Anything that comes out of the mouth of Wierwille because he is, after all, privy to knowledge that hasn't been known since Ephesus was a nothing but a bunch of spec. homes on the lake. By his logic, when he spoke, it was supposedly like Christ speaking. You would have to disregard PFAL to dispute that successfully.
Simple. Anything that comes out of the mouth of Wierwille because he is, after all, privy to knowledge that hasn't been known since Ephesus was a nothing but a bunch of spec. homes on the lake. By his logic, when he spoke, it was supposedly like Christ speaking. You would have to disregard PFAL to dispute that successfully.
Faulty logic It's Christ in me does that make me a lord? These statements are independant of each other.
I would agree, except he said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" which means it wasn't ONLY him who knew the stuff, and he never claimed it was. He backed that up both verbally, and with bookstore books.
Actually, you wouldn't agree, because you'd just seek
another pretext to validate the conclusions you already made.
"Lots of stuff I teach is not original" was buried hundreds of pages into
a book that had a number of people claiming twi and vpw had
special information re: God that others did not.
You're continuing to ignore that people who tell the truth tell the same truth,
but people who lie tell DIFFERENT lies to DIFFERENT people.
So, when he was trying to appear humble, he claimed he wasn't original.
When he was trying to put forth he was THE Authority, then he had
a connection that was unique in all of 2000 years.
If you have a connection unique in all of 2000 years, then you're claiming
that you AND YOU ALONE have the special connection.
This is not difficult to see unless one is determined to make it difficult.
(None so blind...)
God's promise to him was (if one believes it happened):
"I will teach YOU the Word as it has not been known since the first century..."
He didn't say "I will teach ONLY YOU the Word as it had not been known ..."
Doesn't mean God didn't teach anyone else or that VPW was the ONLY one God taught.
Obviously, it wasn't.
The words "ONLY you" change the entire meaning.
As almost everyone else can easily see,
the words "YOU" coupled with "AS IT HAS NOT BEEN KNOWN SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY"
mean that it IS "ONLY YOU" for the last 2000 years.
That obviously vpw wasn't the only person who knew things since the last 2000 years-
and that some of it was the OPPOSITE of the first century church
should make it obvious that the claim of the supposed promise of God was WRONG.
Therefore, either:
1) vpw lied, or
2) God lied, or
3) Someone claimed to be God, lied to vpw, and he wasn't competent enough to tell
he was getting information from a lying spirit.
If vpw lied, I don't trust him.
If vpw heard from a lying god, I don't want anything to do with his god, and I'd
get a God who can't lie.
If vpw was getting his information from lying spirits, I don't want his information either.
Perhaps if you find someone who looked at Dr. Wierwille as a replacement for Christ... confessed him as Lord, then for that person, VPW was Lord. But I don't know of anyone who made VPW Lord and Saviour.
It simply is a fraudulent theory... intellectual gobbledygook and dishonesty at its lowest.
Your we is getting smaller by the minute. Perhaps you might want to rethink your claim, or you could keep telling yourself that the obvious is not true.
"Putting it together -- that was the original part."
Putting it together without proper citations -- that was the illegal part.
What was that bit he taught about cisterns? He read a little bit here, a little there, but just when he needed the power, all he had was an empty hole. AND a book and a class that he could make a lot of money on.
I can't imagine anybody selling his "work".. even posthumously..
I'd imagine.. if the lord came back, the red faced person in "possession" of this stolen merchandise.. "*ahem*.. really *officer*.. I was just holding it... yeah, that was it.. I was just holding it for a *friend*.. besides, its all the same color and all.."
It probably would not be as hard as you think OM. Consider what it means to make someone Lord in your life? Obedience. . . the suggestion of the MOG is tantamount. . . . who one listens to(Who taught us these "great" truths). . . who one considers the final authority. . . who one follows. . . who one emulates. . .
One may emulate, follow and obey someone else and not consider them a replacement for Christ. For instance, children are to emulate follow and obey their parents.. doesn't make the parents a replacement for Christ. Servants are to follow and obey their masters according to the flesh.. doesn't make the masters in the flesh a replacement for Christ.
Now, if the actual Lord is absent(out of the picture). . . it is not hard to consider someone else in His place.
I don't know anyone in the Way who thought that Christ was out of the picture; but in any case, VPW didn't say it was someone else in His place, he said "the Word".
It was not blatant. . it was subtle.
Only to those who misrepresent what Vic said.
Without mouthing the words VP is Lord. . . our actions said exactly that. . . we considered Him in place of the absent Christ. . . who we shamefully relugated to the end of a prayer or the means to an end.
Seems we all to some extent did replace Jesus with VP or some other wannabe leadership. That is what happens in most groups like TWI. . . that is why they usually fall apart when the big guy departs this earth. . . unless they get an equally charasmatic new leader, or they splinter into little groups. . . each with their own little MOG.
Just my opinion.
You may state that for yourself, but using "we" makes you all knowing and judging of other folks' hearts, minds and commitments. That'd be rather presumptuous and judgmental I would think. I also think it'd be a disparagement and put down of folks who quite likely are being accused of something falsely.
"One may emulate, follow and obey someone else and not consider them a replacement for Christ. For instance, children are to emulate follow and obey their parents.. doesn't make the parents a replacement for Christ."
**********************
PFAL syllabus
page 11
"Christ is the living Word, the written Word the preached Word."
page 12
"God and the Word are one."
"It takes the Master's place in us through the Renewed Mind".
page 16
"Christ is the Word in the flesh, made known by the written Word, made known by the preached Word."
Session #5
"It's God in Christ in you."
************************************************
Yes, folks, VPW really did, indeed, teach that Christ is absent and we are his replacement, not just some people to "emulate, follow and obey". And, he said that if we were ever in doubt, (session #12) we should "ask the Teacher", the man who set himself up to be the ultimate replacement for the absent Christ.
"You may state that for yourself, but using "we" makes you all knowing and judging of other folks' hearts, minds and commitments. That'd be rather presumptuous and judgmental I would think. I also think it'd be a disparagement and put down of folks who quite likely are being accused of something falsely."
Geeze, take a breath Oldiesman---maybe I was just using the "Royal" we. . . . "We" the Queen of England. . . . blah, blah, blah. . .
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
23
35
27
18
Popular Days
Mar 26
31
Mar 30
20
Mar 29
20
Mar 13
19
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 23 posts
WhiteDove 35 posts
Ham 27 posts
waysider 18 posts
Popular Days
Mar 26 2009
31 posts
Mar 30 2009
20 posts
Mar 29 2009
20 posts
Mar 13 2009
19 posts
Popular Posts
Tzaia
So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?
WhiteDove
P I I believe they would tell you they are thankful for what he taught them from scripture. Not the same as confessing him as lord, Not even close. I'm thankful for what my history teacher taught me as well but he is not my lord ,or a replacement for Christ. It's quite possible to recognize someone for their contributions to your life without worshiping them. One event does not necessitate the other.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Lot of semantics---I first wrote about taking the place of the absent Christ----if "man of God" suits someone better than take that one instead---Wierwille did take that high falutin title to himself and set up the structure where he was at the top making the decisions of the "ministry" with very little or no oversight..and also claimed a direct pipeline to God.
The main contention I had was not on doctrinal differences that LHIM may have with TWI but that the structures are set up similarly, with one head honcho who holds near celebrity status with few checks, balances or oversights in the system.. Its inherently weak and invites all sorts of problems, potential problems and questions
I dont know how I got dragged into this...I am essentially in the same boat as Masterherbalist--i really dont care all that much what they do. They're adults and are responsible for their own lives. Ive moved on but Im also aware of the shortsightedness of the past and was just offering my viewpoint. If someone wants to think that its something completely different --fine have at it---but its the
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
It probably would not be as hard as you think OM. Consider what it means to make someone Lord in your life? Obedience. . . the suggestion of the MOG is tantamount. . . . who one listens to(Who taught us these "great" truths). . . who one considers the final authority. . . who one follows. . . who one emulates. . .
Now, if the actual Lord is absent(out of the picture). . . it is not hard to consider someone else in His place.
It was not blatant. . it was subtle.
Without mouthing the words VP is Lord. . . our actions said exactly that. . . we considered Him in place of the absent Christ. . . who we shamefully relugated to the end of a prayer or the means to an end.
Seems we all to some extent did replace Jesus with VP or some other wannabe leadership. That is what happens in most groups like TWI. . . that is why they usually fall apart when the big guy departs this earth. . . unless they get an equally charasmatic new leader, or they splinter into little groups. . . each with their own little MOG.
Just my opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Is that mouse in your pocket named we? Because if not we don't apply to me. in which case you can supply I.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Yeah, I forgot, you are the exception. . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Well, you can include me in your "we" Geisha. I was going to post a similar thought (along with the "a suggestion is tantamount to a command, and "God taught ME like it hasn't been known since...", and the requisite fawning and servile obeisance stuff).
Maybe YOU didn't join in with the rest of us servile lackies Mr. Dove. But there were certainly plenty of us mindless, Stepford-wife, dipchits, standing in line to lick Mr. Wierwille's azz every time He made a dramatic entrance. And He played the role and encouraged the sycophant behavior at every opportunity. He had a "Messiah" complex, beyond any rational shadow of a doubt...
Edited by George AarLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
PFAL class:
"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ."
"It's Christ in VP Wierwille."
So, then, what defines "The Word".
Simple. Anything that comes out of the mouth of Wierwille because he is, after all, privy to knowledge that hasn't been known since Ephesus was a nothing but a bunch of spec. homes on the lake. By his logic, when he spoke, it was supposedly like Christ speaking. You would have to disregard PFAL to dispute that successfully.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
is this thread about what dickheads finnegan and geero are ?
if so, i concur
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Well, and a few others......
Faulty logic It's Christ in me does that make me a lord? These statements are independant of each other.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
You tell me.
Do you claim to have knowledge of God that hasn't been known since the first century?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Yep, just keep telling yourself that. . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Actually, you wouldn't agree, because you'd just seek
another pretext to validate the conclusions you already made.
"Lots of stuff I teach is not original" was buried hundreds of pages into
a book that had a number of people claiming twi and vpw had
special information re: God that others did not.
You're continuing to ignore that people who tell the truth tell the same truth,
but people who lie tell DIFFERENT lies to DIFFERENT people.
So, when he was trying to appear humble, he claimed he wasn't original.
When he was trying to put forth he was THE Authority, then he had
a connection that was unique in all of 2000 years.
If you have a connection unique in all of 2000 years, then you're claiming
that you AND YOU ALONE have the special connection.
This is not difficult to see unless one is determined to make it difficult.
(None so blind...)
As almost everyone else can easily see,
the words "YOU" coupled with "AS IT HAS NOT BEEN KNOWN SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY"
mean that it IS "ONLY YOU" for the last 2000 years.
That obviously vpw wasn't the only person who knew things since the last 2000 years-
and that some of it was the OPPOSITE of the first century church
should make it obvious that the claim of the supposed promise of God was WRONG.
Therefore, either:
1) vpw lied, or
2) God lied, or
3) Someone claimed to be God, lied to vpw, and he wasn't competent enough to tell
he was getting information from a lying spirit.
If vpw lied, I don't trust him.
If vpw heard from a lying god, I don't want anything to do with his god, and I'd
get a God who can't lie.
If vpw was getting his information from lying spirits, I don't want his information either.
I know, you can't see it's that simple.
Despite your inability, it IS that simple.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Naw I don't have to I can just read it .........
Your we is getting smaller by the minute. Perhaps you might want to rethink your claim, or you could keep telling yourself that the obvious is not true.
Edited by WhiteDoveLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
The Emperor has no clothes!
(der Victoid was a fraud!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"Lots of stuff I teach is not original."
It's right there in front of us.
The guy was telling us it was stolen.
Without saying WHO the author of the original was, it's only HALF a statement.
I can just see a guy telling the cops, "Lots of those T.V.s and stereos aren't mine."
Huh?? Whose are they and where did you get them?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
"Lot's of stuff I teach is not original."
and the second half of that is...
"Putting it together -- that was the original part."
Putting it together without proper citations -- that was the illegal part.
What was that bit he taught about cisterns? He read a little bit here, a little there, but just when he needed the power, all he had was an empty hole. AND a book and a class that he could make a lot of money on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
So in essence.. he ran a "bible" chop shop..
instead of a transmission from a 47 chevy, a radiator from a 52 ford.. it was a class in 1952 or so in canada.. bible "helps" from a guy long dead..
oh yeah.. the product is an "original" alright..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
maybe the only "original" thing he did.. make sure he spray painted it with cheap paint, all the same color..
that gawd awful green.. must have bought it by the ton.. they still use it, on their website..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I can't imagine anybody selling his "work".. even posthumously..
I'd imagine.. if the lord came back, the red faced person in "possession" of this stolen merchandise.. "*ahem*.. really *officer*.. I was just holding it... yeah, that was it.. I was just holding it for a *friend*.. besides, its all the same color and all.."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I made the conclusion, true, but it is based upon evidence that you repeatedly gloss over.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Oldies said:
"One may emulate, follow and obey someone else and not consider them a replacement for Christ. For instance, children are to emulate follow and obey their parents.. doesn't make the parents a replacement for Christ."
**********************
PFAL syllabus
page 11
"Christ is the living Word, the written Word the preached Word."
page 12
"God and the Word are one."
"It takes the Master's place in us through the Renewed Mind".
page 16
"Christ is the Word in the flesh, made known by the written Word, made known by the preached Word."
Session #5
"It's God in Christ in you."
************************************************
Yes, folks, VPW really did, indeed, teach that Christ is absent and we are his replacement, not just some people to "emulate, follow and obey". And, he said that if we were ever in doubt, (session #12) we should "ask the Teacher", the man who set himself up to be the ultimate replacement for the absent Christ.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Oldiesman said:
"You may state that for yourself, but using "we" makes you all knowing and judging of other folks' hearts, minds and commitments. That'd be rather presumptuous and judgmental I would think. I also think it'd be a disparagement and put down of folks who quite likely are being accused of something falsely."
Geeze, take a breath Oldiesman---maybe I was just using the "Royal" we. . . . "We" the Queen of England. . . . blah, blah, blah. . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
just an aside
y'know--It doesnt make your point any more viable when you use giant letters in bright colors--
unless of course you're a believer in THIS..
It looks like your trying to shout everyone down
Edited by mstar1Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.