I think DWBH's whole point (and please let me know if I'm wrong DWBH) is that Vince's faith, practice, and behavior has not shifted to the extent that he has picked up the phone to apologize to DWBH for the behaviors that personally affected DWBH, therefore he believes the whole "I've changed" thing is a bit suspect.
I tend to agree.
Almost all the splinters have shifted some of the theology, but the element of having "the truth" and the need to be right is still glaringly apparent.
Exactly, until these guys start living and honoring the scriptures which they claim to represent...they are still at best pretty noise ...at worst a complete distraction from ones spiritual walk and responsibility.
tzaia..............i have always found your posts here at the spot to be well tempered intellectually, and even-handed "politically" in the sense of the pseudo-religious, ideological retorts of the more "conservative" christian" approach utilized by twi/twi-offshoot proponents of right-wing, fundamentalist, self-centered "new age" theologies.
your first paragraph in your last post very accurately describes my personal thought process in the point i was trying to make! religious rhetoric is cheap "rockstar status". and, as a cult "hero", vinnie remains unchallenged, and unrepentant in the current arrangement of his religious, psychosocial corporate structure whose religious beliefs line-up almost lockstep with the views of an unrepentant, religious "leader" whose former "church" provided the numerical membership base and the financial wherewithall to continue a "ministry" whose origens will forever be embedded in the remnants of what vinnie's faithfulness to vic's perversions of christianity, as well as vic's personal perversions of what defines "christian leadership"were!
no! you are not wrong tzaia!............you expressed my feelings quite accurately, regarding my reliance upon a voluntary, personal, apology from vinnie for a number of moral, ethical, and "religious" improprieties he committed against me and many others albeit over 20 years ago, which apologies/repentance would go a long way toward convincing me that vinnie has indeed found a less "cosmetically" repentant form of christianity than the one i knew him in the context of.........
mark clarke.........i have spent hours reading your website.........i have spent hours reading vinnie's website......i have spent hours thinking about your new-found truth of the kingdom-ready theology.......i have spent hours at the atlanta bible college website.....it remains unaccredited......your cog, abrahamic faith-based dogma remains at the fringes of right-wing christian dogma..........reading your apologeia-like posts defending and/or promoting your faith is, for me, like listening to karl rove defend the illegalities, overreachings, and outright propaganda lies of the last 8 years of the bush administration's conduct of the foreign policy of the united states!...........why can't you get vinnie to come out and speak for himself here????.........are you his "official" spokesman and apologist here at the greasespot??........is he so far above us spiritually to come promote his own crap here himself?.........i don't care what you or vince believe!.........i expect personal justice.......christian responsibility for genuine repentance.........honest answers to honest questions, regardless of how "old" they may be!............your pseudo-lectures on "how long it's been", or how "non-current" the facts are don't move me.............why do you think you have the right or responsinility to promote vinnie's and your church here at the greasespot?..........why should'nt vinnie do his own "dirtywork"??..........
i think your shameless promotion of vinnie's church and beliefs is somewhat inappropriate to the stated mission of this website........but, that's just my opinion.........vinnie has his website.......you have your's......why impose your overbearing theology on us greasespotters so consistently?...........just to take advantage of the free speech offered here which vinnie's site does not offer?.........i'm personally sick and tired of your use of the greasespot to promote your own church in the name of vinnie, who doesn't even have the guts or common decency to come speak here for himself!..............moderators...........why isn't this kind of junk put into the doctrinal forum where it belongs?????........or, at least, run it as an advertisement like the rest of the religious nuts whose ads populate the edges of these pages????.............personally.........i'm done with discussing vinnie's abrahamic roots church........and mark clarke's apologetics driven advertisements for the same!.....they both have their own sites!.......go there to continue their bs!........just my opinions!............peace!
My gripe with all these splinters is that every leader has stayed in some position of authority over others. Not one of them has stepped down and submitted to someone else, much less attempted to seek understanding by going too far outside their theological comfort zone. Until they can do that, I don't believe a one of them will ever really get it.
I don't know VF and know very little about him other than other people's gushing when he was part of TWI and JAL's occasional reference to him in conversation. I don't care. I don't care what he believes, who he has aligned himself with, or how much closer to "mainstream" he appears to be. There is still that undercurrent of arrogance.
The reality is that we are constrained to seeing through a dark glass and that (if you believe what is written) is by design. It's not so wrong to continually seek truth, but I do believe it's wrong to be convinced that you have the truth because we're told it is not possible.
Because having the whole truth is not possible, the Christian community needs to work on what is possible, which is loving God and loving others, including enemies. If those commandments are only possible within the context of "rightly dividing" and/or "like-mindedness," then I believe the point has been missed.
Oh, and Mark, Jesus was pretty sure the kingdom was going to be coming within his generation. Some have argued that his crucifixion might have been his way of hurrying it along. Whether that's true or not, one of his main points was that until the kingdom has come, his followers were to live as though it had already arrived. While exceedingly difficult, I think that's a great way to be.
A good while back Vince Finnigan did a teaching on figures of speech that I remember from the early eighties. As it was a publically offered teaching I have no problem using his name. I will now rework the figures of speech that he covered and even shamelessly copy his points and some of the structure, but the topic will fit this thread (hehehe) and still cover the specific figures of speach that he shared.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS LIKE A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks work, and emotionally bullied many into submission," that would be a SIMILE.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks works, emotionally bullied many into submission, and caused the ruin of TWI," that would be a METAPHOR.
If i simply looked at these things and yelled at the top of my lungs,"BAAASSSTAAARRRD!!!" That would be an example of the figure of speach "HYPOCATASTASIS."
I hope that you all would excuse me while I repost this one here. At the time that I wrote it I had no real idea that Vince was in so deep with the ministry that he learned from Wierwille. The kind where the leaders run off the juices they get from an ever expanding series of debaucheries and abuses that were done in God's name. If I knew that when I posted this one I wouldn't have used Wierwille's name, I would have used Finnigan's.
________________________________
Dear DWBH,
Thank you for the answer to my question. I am more than willing to accept your decision to not get too personal about things between you and Vince, or Vince and his victims and/or fellow bastards. I especially can respect your desire to see real healing for all of them. I guess I can understand your decision to not drag out twenty year old history for all of us to see the gory details too. You've given me enough without naming any name but Vince's to understand how deep he was in the crapola pile that is TWI..... thank you.
I wouldn't be likely to try to keep you from revealing any of your personal dealings with Vince or his with yours if you were to choose to lay it all out for us though. And if I thought it would help any of his victims at all to vent here at the Greasespot I would most likely happily run off any interference from the opposition if I could.
With my former splinter group leader I would expect at minimum a full public acknowledgment of his insanities and the kind of turning where with tears he does his very best to fix all the damage he's done as if his life depended on it. (Although to be honest, to me he seems to be just as good at manipulating folks with his tears as Wierwille was.) I'm not holding my breath either. The issues between him and me are much more current and raw for me too.
And FYI, since I know nobody here it is good to here your views on who stands with who. If nothing else it is good to be informed on these kinds of things I think.
(edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)
I agree with DWBH, if Vince came out and publickly appologized here on GSC and made contrition, and likewise the leaders of the other off-shoots on behavior/ethics and say the truth about VPW and that he was wrong on attitudes and that Wierwille should have footnoted/end notes at the conclusion of chapters or the entire book, or at least had done bibliography on PFAL, RTHST,ADAL, or the supplemental "collaterals"(btw an incorrect term), then we wouldn't care about their theologies/doctinal stances, provided they shared it with humility and acknoledge they could possibly be wrong. Grace and mercy to all. Thomas
Lemme remember Vic for a minute - God is "the Word"; Jesus was "the Word in the flesh"; "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ"
But no one knows "the Word" so God tells VPW he will teach him the word like it has not been known since the first century church (remember? no originals...) So now Vic (the drunken debaucherous lech) now has the only score on the "real word"
So...if the word takes the place of the absent Christ - and only Vic "knows" the Word - then Vic, by proxy, is now the absent Christ...or sure as hell lived like he was (well maybe NOT) - and he made so much insult of the pope speaking "excathedra" - no insult on the user here
B as in B, and S as in S.
I don't think Vince ever portrayed himself as a Christ-like or Messiah-like figure, and neither did VPW for that matter. (snipped)
I will agree that VPW assented to a man of God status for himself, and even an ambassador for Christ; but won't agree that he assented to a Christ-like or Messiah-like or Saviour-like status for himself. I believe such comparisons while fancifully surmised are intellectually dishonest and fraudulent and not representative of the history of twi.
BUT - JC is sitting on God's right hand, (making them both kind of silly), so the Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
God told VP that He would teach der Victoid the Word as no one else had known it since the First Century Church.
NOW VP was the keeper of the keys to the kingdom.
VP took the place of the absent Christ because he had the Word and Christ was... absent - getting eternally goosed by his father....(sound kind of familiar?)
VP became the Word in the flesh...
So...
Now VP had the Word, taught to him by God Himself. He had knowledge no other man had -well not since JC knew more than the scribes and pharisees.
It was a secret- the greatest secret in the world...but VP knew it and would whisper it in your ear if you signed a green card and gave a minimum donation of $$$ (I paid $100.00)
Perhaps if you find someone who looked at Dr. Wierwille as a replacement for Christ... confessed him as Lord, then for that person, VPW was Lord. But I don't know of anyone who made VPW Lord and Saviour.
It simply is a fraudulent theory... intellectual gobbledygook and dishonesty at its lowest.
It simply is a fraudulent theory... intellectual gobbledygook and dishonesty at its lowest.
Actually,
for dishonesty at its lowest,
I can't top taking the work of someone else,
then turning around, claiming credit for it, the result of your life's work,
and claim that God Almighty taught it to you, and ONLY you,
for the past 2000 years.
sounds like you are describing "da word like it hasn't been known since the first century"..
You're being obtuse OM.
According to VP:
God is the Word, The Word is God.
Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh.
BUT - JC is sitting on God's right hand, (making them both kind of silly), so the Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
God told VP that He would teach der Victoid the Word as no one else had known it since the First Century Church.
NOW VP was the keeper of the keys to the kingdom.
VP took the place of the absent Christ because he had the Word and Christ was... absent - getting eternally goosed by his father....(sound kind of familiar?)
VP became the Word in the flesh...
So...
Now VP had the Word, taught to him by God Himself. He had knowledge no other man had -well not since JC knew more than the scribes and pharisees.
It was a secret- the greatest secret in the world...but VP knew it and would whisper it in your ear if you signed a green card and gave a minimum donation of $$$ (I paid $100.00)
"I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless
there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.
And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He
would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would
teach it to others."
"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I
came to the point by the next day where I said to myself-maybe it's true. So the next
day I talked to God again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me
yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that
I can really know, so that I can believe.'
The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful early
autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a
sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I
opened them.
The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling
station on the corner not 75 feet away."
"I stood in my newly rented office and prayed to the Father. "Father, teach me the Word, teach me the Word."
He told me as plain as day that if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to
teach it to anybody since the first century. And, of course, at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy.
Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody will listen to me. The whole church will be blessed; my denomination will grow
by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." And I thought that was terrific. But during the process of that revelation,
I said, "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me? Because I had worked the Word in commentaries
and the rest of it, and I couldn't understand it, couldn't get it to fit.
And the sun was shining brightly. It was in the fall of the year. Gorgeous. There wasn't a cloud in the sky.
And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father,
"Well, if it'll just snow right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you.'"
Cause you see. I'd never had much experience with God's talking to me. And this business of His saying to me,
just as audibly as I am speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before.
Oh, my ears were perhaps clogged up. Since that time I've heard a lot of things from Him.
And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes, and it was pitch-black,
almost pitch-black outside, and the snow was falling so thick. I have never seen it fall that thick since that day.
And I sat in that little office, and I cried like a baby. Because I guess it was about my time to cry
because I'd grown up but I didn't know the Word. And from that day on since He promised He'd teach me the Word,
I have tried with all my heart to learn this Word."
I would agree, except he said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" which means it wasn't ONLY him who knew the stuff, and he never claimed it was. He backed that up both verbally, and with bookstore books.
God's promise to him was (if one believes it happened):
"I will teach YOU the Word as it has not been known since the first century..."
He didn't say "I will teach ONLY YOU the Word as it had not been known ..."
Doesn't mean God didn't teach anyone else or that VPW was the ONLY one God taught.
These leaders in these "dictatorial" leadership roles many times fit the criteria laid out in the book "The subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse." Many years ago I posted the many points in that book that cause these outfits to be so subtle...It is emotional, deceptive and manipulative playing on people's genuine authentic desire to do right by God.
Well, this is America, and folks have the liberty to choose which religious group they want to attend, or not attend one at all if that is their choice.
My former splinter group experience was bad enough.
I have no intention of going to a church that has as one of it's leadership a man who has not confessed to a long series of sexual abuses that he has committed and doesn't seem to realize that he should try to fix what he's broken too..... ahem.....Mark Clarke-WTF?
Perhaps if you find someone who looked at Dr. Wierwille as a replacement for Christ... confessed him as Lord, then for that person, VPW was Lord. But I don't know of anyone who made VPW Lord and Saviour.
It simply is a fraudulent theory... intellectual gobbledygook and dishonesty at its lowest.
For me Oldies, I think that this is the issue.
If it is Christ in us, the Hope of glory. But then the bastard leader raises bastard children who simultaneously teach people to fear them and to believe to see the CHRIST IN THEM and to honor the leadership position which of course is IN CHRIST.....yeah right BTW..... Of course different MEMBERS OF THIS BASTARD LED ORGANIZATION must come up with all kinds of screwy ideas to try to salve their conscience of what they see, in the case of TWI sexual and spiritual abuse. And in my mind, it seems perfectly reasonable that these bastards or their mind-numbed followers would come up with quasi-scriptural reasons to see CHRIST in a sociopathic predator like Wierwille. Of course as you've spoken of oral traditions that were never written down, how on God's green earth can you possibly deny that these bad ideas could have come from within TWI!?
I mean I don't live with any of these people. They don't sign my paycheck or anything. They moved on (sort of) and I moved on much further down the road.
I worry about me. If someone is impressionable and wants to follow these folks, that is their business. I figure if they have eyes to see and ears to hear, God will ensure that they know the score. If they don't. they won't.
and I think it's a pathetic existence.. I mean.. could you imagine if they ran for public office? That'd make the little "grilling" they get here look like an innocent tea party..
But really.. no REAL job skills.. no REAL education.. no REAL credentials.. a "resume" of abuses and such that wouldn't get them a job as a janitor.. but all they REALLY know.. is how to move their mouths..
I would agree, except he said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" which means it wasn't ONLY him who knew the stuff, and he never claimed it was. He backed that up both verbally, and with bookstore books.
God's promise to him was (if one believes it happened):
"I will teach YOU the Word as it has not been known since the first century..."
He didn't say "I will teach ONLY YOU the Word as it had not been known ..."
Doesn't mean God didn't teach anyone else or that VPW was the ONLY one God taught.
Obviously, it wasn't.
The words "ONLY you" change the entire meaning.
Okay... but did you know anyone back then who went looking for someone- anyone - else that God personally taught the Word to?
And the "lots of stuff I teach..." is a lame way to excuse der Victoid's blatant abuse of Leonard's trust (among other men.)
Leonard let him run a class and vp stole it. Then he went on to steal more and more.
Well, this is America, and folks have the liberty to choose which religious group they want to attend, or not attend one at all if that is their choice.
True. However, this is also America, where folks have the right to speak about any religious group they have attended, or not attend one at all if that is their choice.
I worry about me. If someone is impressionable and wants to follow these folks, that is their business. I figure if they have eyes to see and ears to hear, God will ensure that they know the score. If they don't. they won't.
Sorry.
Just like WE had eyes to see and ears to hear?
I take care of myself and my kids first as well, masterherbalist. But I have some spare time...
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Tzaia
So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?
Tzaia
Mark,
I think DWBH's whole point (and please let me know if I'm wrong DWBH) is that Vince's faith, practice, and behavior has not shifted to the extent that he has picked up the phone to apologize to DWBH for the behaviors that personally affected DWBH, therefore he believes the whole "I've changed" thing is a bit suspect.
I tend to agree.
Almost all the splinters have shifted some of the theology, but the element of having "the truth" and the need to be right is still glaringly apparent.
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rascal
Exactly, until these guys start living and honoring the scriptures which they claim to represent...they are still at best pretty noise ...at worst a complete distraction from ones spiritual walk and responsibility.
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DontWorryBeHappy
tzaia..............i have always found your posts here at the spot to be well tempered intellectually, and even-handed "politically" in the sense of the pseudo-religious, ideological retorts of the more "conservative" christian" approach utilized by twi/twi-offshoot proponents of right-wing, fundamentalist, self-centered "new age" theologies.
your first paragraph in your last post very accurately describes my personal thought process in the point i was trying to make! religious rhetoric is cheap "rockstar status". and, as a cult "hero", vinnie remains unchallenged, and unrepentant in the current arrangement of his religious, psychosocial corporate structure whose religious beliefs line-up almost lockstep with the views of an unrepentant, religious "leader" whose former "church" provided the numerical membership base and the financial wherewithall to continue a "ministry" whose origens will forever be embedded in the remnants of what vinnie's faithfulness to vic's perversions of christianity, as well as vic's personal perversions of what defines "christian leadership"were!
no! you are not wrong tzaia!............you expressed my feelings quite accurately, regarding my reliance upon a voluntary, personal, apology from vinnie for a number of moral, ethical, and "religious" improprieties he committed against me and many others albeit over 20 years ago, which apologies/repentance would go a long way toward convincing me that vinnie has indeed found a less "cosmetically" repentant form of christianity than the one i knew him in the context of.........
mark clarke.........i have spent hours reading your website.........i have spent hours reading vinnie's website......i have spent hours thinking about your new-found truth of the kingdom-ready theology.......i have spent hours at the atlanta bible college website.....it remains unaccredited......your cog, abrahamic faith-based dogma remains at the fringes of right-wing christian dogma..........reading your apologeia-like posts defending and/or promoting your faith is, for me, like listening to karl rove defend the illegalities, overreachings, and outright propaganda lies of the last 8 years of the bush administration's conduct of the foreign policy of the united states!...........why can't you get vinnie to come out and speak for himself here????.........are you his "official" spokesman and apologist here at the greasespot??........is he so far above us spiritually to come promote his own crap here himself?.........i don't care what you or vince believe!.........i expect personal justice.......christian responsibility for genuine repentance.........honest answers to honest questions, regardless of how "old" they may be!............your pseudo-lectures on "how long it's been", or how "non-current" the facts are don't move me.............why do you think you have the right or responsinility to promote vinnie's and your church here at the greasespot?..........why should'nt vinnie do his own "dirtywork"??..........
i think your shameless promotion of vinnie's church and beliefs is somewhat inappropriate to the stated mission of this website........but, that's just my opinion.........vinnie has his website.......you have your's......why impose your overbearing theology on us greasespotters so consistently?...........just to take advantage of the free speech offered here which vinnie's site does not offer?.........i'm personally sick and tired of your use of the greasespot to promote your own church in the name of vinnie, who doesn't even have the guts or common decency to come speak here for himself!..............moderators...........why isn't this kind of junk put into the doctrinal forum where it belongs?????........or, at least, run it as an advertisement like the rest of the religious nuts whose ads populate the edges of these pages????.............personally.........i'm done with discussing vinnie's abrahamic roots church........and mark clarke's apologetics driven advertisements for the same!.....they both have their own sites!.......go there to continue their bs!........just my opinions!............peace!
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Tzaia
My gripe with all these splinters is that every leader has stayed in some position of authority over others. Not one of them has stepped down and submitted to someone else, much less attempted to seek understanding by going too far outside their theological comfort zone. Until they can do that, I don't believe a one of them will ever really get it.
I don't know VF and know very little about him other than other people's gushing when he was part of TWI and JAL's occasional reference to him in conversation. I don't care. I don't care what he believes, who he has aligned himself with, or how much closer to "mainstream" he appears to be. There is still that undercurrent of arrogance.
The reality is that we are constrained to seeing through a dark glass and that (if you believe what is written) is by design. It's not so wrong to continually seek truth, but I do believe it's wrong to be convinced that you have the truth because we're told it is not possible.
Because having the whole truth is not possible, the Christian community needs to work on what is possible, which is loving God and loving others, including enemies. If those commandments are only possible within the context of "rightly dividing" and/or "like-mindedness," then I believe the point has been missed.
Oh, and Mark, Jesus was pretty sure the kingdom was going to be coming within his generation. Some have argued that his crucifixion might have been his way of hurrying it along. Whether that's true or not, one of his main points was that until the kingdom has come, his followers were to live as though it had already arrived. While exceedingly difficult, I think that's a great way to be.
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JeffSjo
I hope that you all would excuse me while I repost this one here. At the time that I wrote it I had no real idea that Vince was in so deep with the ministry that he learned from Wierwille. The kind where the leaders run off the juices they get from an ever expanding series of debaucheries and abuses that were done in God's name. If I knew that when I posted this one I wouldn't have used Wierwille's name, I would have used Finnigan's.
________________________________
Dear DWBH,
Thank you for the answer to my question. I am more than willing to accept your decision to not get too personal about things between you and Vince, or Vince and his victims and/or fellow bastards. I especially can respect your desire to see real healing for all of them. I guess I can understand your decision to not drag out twenty year old history for all of us to see the gory details too. You've given me enough without naming any name but Vince's to understand how deep he was in the crapola pile that is TWI..... thank you.
I wouldn't be likely to try to keep you from revealing any of your personal dealings with Vince or his with yours if you were to choose to lay it all out for us though. And if I thought it would help any of his victims at all to vent here at the Greasespot I would most likely happily run off any interference from the opposition if I could.
With my former splinter group leader I would expect at minimum a full public acknowledgment of his insanities and the kind of turning where with tears he does his very best to fix all the damage he's done as if his life depended on it. (Although to be honest, to me he seems to be just as good at manipulating folks with his tears as Wierwille was.) I'm not holding my breath either. The issues between him and me are much more current and raw for me too.
And FYI, since I know nobody here it is good to here your views on who stands with who. If nothing else it is good to be informed on these kinds of things I think.
(edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I agree with DWBH, if Vince came out and publickly appologized here on GSC and made contrition, and likewise the leaders of the other off-shoots on behavior/ethics and say the truth about VPW and that he was wrong on attitudes and that Wierwille should have footnoted/end notes at the conclusion of chapters or the entire book, or at least had done bibliography on PFAL, RTHST,ADAL, or the supplemental "collaterals"(btw an incorrect term), then we wouldn't care about their theologies/doctinal stances, provided they shared it with humility and acknoledge they could possibly be wrong. Grace and mercy to all. Thomas
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RumRunner
Lemme remember Vic for a minute - God is "the Word"; Jesus was "the Word in the flesh"; "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ"
But no one knows "the Word" so God tells VPW he will teach him the word like it has not been known since the first century church (remember? no originals...) So now Vic (the drunken debaucherous lech) now has the only score on the "real word"
So...if the word takes the place of the absent Christ - and only Vic "knows" the Word - then Vic, by proxy, is now the absent Christ...or sure as hell lived like he was (well maybe NOT) - and he made so much insult of the pope speaking "excathedra" - no insult on the user here
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oldiesman
I will agree that VPW assented to a man of God status for himself, and even an ambassador for Christ; but won't agree that he assented to a Christ-like or Messiah-like or Saviour-like status for himself. I believe such comparisons while fancifully surmised are intellectually dishonest and fraudulent and not representative of the history of twi.
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doojable
You're being obtuse OM.
According to VP:
God is the Word, The Word is God.
Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh.
BUT - JC is sitting on God's right hand, (making them both kind of silly), so the Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
God told VP that He would teach der Victoid the Word as no one else had known it since the First Century Church.
NOW VP was the keeper of the keys to the kingdom.
VP took the place of the absent Christ because he had the Word and Christ was... absent - getting eternally goosed by his father....(sound kind of familiar?)
VP became the Word in the flesh...
So...
Now VP had the Word, taught to him by God Himself. He had knowledge no other man had -well not since JC knew more than the scribes and pharisees.
It was a secret- the greatest secret in the world...but VP knew it and would whisper it in your ear if you signed a green card and gave a minimum donation of $$$ (I paid $100.00)
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oldiesman
Perhaps if you find someone who looked at Dr. Wierwille as a replacement for Christ... confessed him as Lord, then for that person, VPW was Lord. But I don't know of anyone who made VPW Lord and Saviour.
It simply is a fraudulent theory... intellectual gobbledygook and dishonesty at its lowest.
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doojable
Who was VP?
I'll tell you who he was:
In Genesis he is the seed of the serpent (And the beer that Noah drank before uncovering his sons' nakedness.)
In Exodus he is the plague that kills the first born males.
In Leviticus he is the issue of blood.
...
;)
... yea, yea, yea... I was bored...
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Ham
sounds like you are describing "da word like it hasn't been known since the first century"..
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WordWolf
Actually,
for dishonesty at its lowest,
I can't top taking the work of someone else,
then turning around, claiming credit for it, the result of your life's work,
and claim that God Almighty taught it to you, and ONLY you,
for the past 2000 years.
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oldiesman
I would agree, except he said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" which means it wasn't ONLY him who knew the stuff, and he never claimed it was. He backed that up both verbally, and with bookstore books.
God's promise to him was (if one believes it happened):
"I will teach YOU the Word as it has not been known since the first century..."
He didn't say "I will teach ONLY YOU the Word as it had not been known ..."
Doesn't mean God didn't teach anyone else or that VPW was the ONLY one God taught.
Obviously, it wasn't.
The words "ONLY you" change the entire meaning.
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washn'wear
These leaders in these "dictatorial" leadership roles many times fit the criteria laid out in the book "The subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse." Many years ago I posted the many points in that book that cause these outfits to be so subtle...It is emotional, deceptive and manipulative playing on people's genuine authentic desire to do right by God.
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oldiesman
Well, this is America, and folks have the liberty to choose which religious group they want to attend, or not attend one at all if that is their choice.
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JeffSjo
Speaking for myself.....
My former splinter group experience was bad enough.
I have no intention of going to a church that has as one of it's leadership a man who has not confessed to a long series of sexual abuses that he has committed and doesn't seem to realize that he should try to fix what he's broken too..... ahem.....Mark Clarke-WTF?
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JeffSjo
For me Oldies, I think that this is the issue.
If it is Christ in us, the Hope of glory. But then the bastard leader raises bastard children who simultaneously teach people to fear them and to believe to see the CHRIST IN THEM and to honor the leadership position which of course is IN CHRIST.....yeah right BTW..... Of course different MEMBERS OF THIS BASTARD LED ORGANIZATION must come up with all kinds of screwy ideas to try to salve their conscience of what they see, in the case of TWI sexual and spiritual abuse. And in my mind, it seems perfectly reasonable that these bastards or their mind-numbed followers would come up with quasi-scriptural reasons to see CHRIST in a sociopathic predator like Wierwille. Of course as you've spoken of oral traditions that were never written down, how on God's green earth can you possibly deny that these bad ideas could have come from within TWI!?
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masterherbalist
I don't mean to be callous here, but
WHO CARES?
I mean I don't live with any of these people. They don't sign my paycheck or anything. They moved on (sort of) and I moved on much further down the road.
I worry about me. If someone is impressionable and wants to follow these folks, that is their business. I figure if they have eyes to see and ears to hear, God will ensure that they know the score. If they don't. they won't.
Sorry.
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Ham
what I wonder.. are these guys so naive as to think that this kind of tainted past would not come back to bite them in the a**?
sexual "indescretions".. abusive behavior.. etc. etc..
my opinion.. they are married to it..
and unlike vic's assertion.. it really isn't "available" to believe sufficiently to have the past covered up, where even da debil can't get to it..
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Ham
if proverbs is right.. they are wounded, dishonored and stained.. and it just can't be rinsed off or something..
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Ham
and I think it's a pathetic existence.. I mean.. could you imagine if they ran for public office? That'd make the little "grilling" they get here look like an innocent tea party..
But really.. no REAL job skills.. no REAL education.. no REAL credentials.. a "resume" of abuses and such that wouldn't get them a job as a janitor.. but all they REALLY know.. is how to move their mouths..
better sound pretty convincing..
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Ham
or to be "politically correct"..
have a resume, that wouldn't get them a job as an unskilled, menial servitor..
don't get me wrong. I've done that kind of work before..
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doojable
Okay... but did you know anyone back then who went looking for someone- anyone - else that God personally taught the Word to?
And the "lots of stuff I teach..." is a lame way to excuse der Victoid's blatant abuse of Leonard's trust (among other men.)
Leonard let him run a class and vp stole it. Then he went on to steal more and more.
True. However, this is also America, where folks have the right to speak about any religious group they have attended, or not attend one at all if that is their choice.
Just like WE had eyes to see and ears to hear?
I take care of myself and my kids first as well, masterherbalist. But I have some spare time...
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