Anybody who is thankful to the "founder" of a religion.. a false prophet at the best, abusive, alcoholic sex maniac and false prophet at the worst..
even today..
words can't describe my contempt here..
If you read that paragraph in his letter again, you'll see that he was not thankful for the false things that VPW taught or the evils that he did. But if even the worst sinner happens to teach me a few things about the Bible (especially at a time when I had no idea what a sinner he was) I can still take the things he taught me away with me and be thankful for them. Had he never said or done anything right in all that time, he never would have deceived anyone.
During the early years of The Way, emphasis was placed primarily upon
sound biblical principles
such as
the Word of God being the will of God, love for God and others as most important, complete dependency on and faith in God, and life should be lived today with a view toward the impending return of our Lord Jesus Christ
. The doctrinal focus was regarding
monotheism, the lordship of Christ, and the power of the holy spirit
. I will always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry without which I don’t think I would have lived to see thirty.
No matter how bad VPW was, many of us can still be thankful for having learned those things I highlighted.
In addition to the line that has already been quoted ("I consider myself to have been a part of the problem and deeply regret the many things I did wrong") Vince also said in that letter, "We parted from The Way without bitterness or anger. In the long run, we had thankfulness for the good and repentance for that which we had done wrong. God gave us a clean new start."
Does anyone have evidence that he did not repent? Lack of hearing from him in over 20 years is not evidence, since it is just possible he had no knowledge of how badly he hurt DWBH or others. He doesn't surf the net or read GreaseSpot and would have no knowledge of what's being discussed here were it not for the fact that I emailed him and told him about it. But just as I shouldn't have to defend him, I also shouldn't have to tell him someone has a problem. If DWBH feels he was hurt, does badmouthing him on the internet make it better? Shouldn't we all strive for peace?
Mark, I tend to think that (in this case anyway) the terms back biting and gossip seem to only aplicable to that which isn`t flattering to how one personally wishes to view things...no? It is usually used here at gsc as a ball bat to try to shut up the unflattering accounts that give evidence to the real spiritual nature of twi`s leaders.
I have no idea if he has repented or not, (though his silence and lack of apology and seeking to repair the damage speak volumes) but expecting anyone to feel grateful or thankful for the faulty foundations on which twi was built.....(yeah I know folks have painted over the flaws and attempted to patch the cracks with terms like *sound biblical principles* and *the word of God is the will of God*) as far as I can see, are still living the lie promulgated by a man of the flesh, a wolf in sheep`s clothing. The fruit in the lives of those who lived, and those who continue to try to live by these faulty premises show just how spiritually bankrupt the doctrine, (no matter how pretty you dress it up)...still is...
Vince might be a real peach of a guy now, but still.....He KNOWS what went on...yet he still venerates wierwille and twi...He is STILL promoting the lie.
I would think that if one has any character at all, he would be acknowledging the wrongs of his teacher, apologizing for damage inflicted, and start all over again from scratch. NOT trying to hide the truth so that what he personally wishes to believe and promulgate appears to have merit. Until then, as far as I can see....he does not deserve our respect, nor his doctrine consideration, and frankly, as far as I am concerned he is not much better than any of the the other leaders that used the scriptures to steal that which was never theirs to begin with, to excuse them from their spiritual responsibilities, and moral duty, to deny personal responsibility and accountability....no matter how sanitized his version of the so called truth.
Call it like you see it, but me? I see no difference in examining and discussing the heinous crimes of the men who stole and destroyed in God`s name, using scriptures to justify and sanitize their actions in twi and after....and the pharacees, saducees and money lenders that Jesus so despised and who`s practice he publicly vilified in his own time.
If we don`t hold each other accountable when we are wrong, if we cannot count on one another to see and assist when we are unable, how will we ever learn, and grow?
This isn`t about taking swipes at VF because he was a big shot...I never knew him, enjoyed the few teachings that I did hear.
Apparently, he knows now that we are here. He by now knows that there are folks here that have a problem with him, with twi based doctrine, with beliefs post twi.
We aren`t a priority, I understand that, people never were in twi. He can label us nameless faceless internet nobodies, thus safely dismissing any responsibility to address issues, examine his actions or God forbid realize that his *answers* may not actually be correct.
But God knows that we are real living breathing souls behind these monitors, pouring out our thoughts and opinions on these pages. If a fellow gave a damn about people or the wrongs of twi, he would be here straightening it out.
No, like most ex twi off shoot leaders, he doesn`t appear to place value or importance in people.
It seems to me that these guys don`t want to face people without protected status of leader. What they teach is of tantamount importance, anything that distracts from that is considered a waste of time....anybody who doesn`t buy it isn`t worth the time. Those that were wounded need to just get over it, shut up, move on etc.
It isn`t gossip or back biting if it is true. Otherwise I suppose Jesus is as guilty as all us bad old Greasespotters for talking about pharacees and saducees, in other words, creeps that hurt people in God`s name.
You tell him that he is a back biter or a gossip ....lol
Just another good sounding excuse to get people to shut up about information and experiences that makes one uncomfortable, imo.
Indeed ....and that If is a big difference
I'll just add right about here a small fact, Jesus knew the truth about the Pharisees and Sadducees before he opened his mouth and spoke .
Let me bring to memory your own admissions........
This isn't about taking swipes at VF because he was a big shot...I never knew him,
I have no idea if he has repented or not,
I would think that if one has any character at all, he would be acknowledging the wrongs of his teacher, apologizing for damage inflicted, and start all over again from scratch. NOT trying to hide the truth so that what he personally wishes to believe and promulgate appears to have merit. Until then, as far as I can see....he does not deserve our respect, nor his doctrine consideration, and frankly, as far as I am concerned he is not much better than any of the the other leaders that used the scriptures to steal that which was never theirs to begin with, to excuse them from their spiritual responsibilities, and moral duty, to deny personal responsibility and accountability....no matter how sanitized his version of the so called truth.
And yet you ,unlike Jesus admittedly don't know of what you speak and yet you feel inclined to offer such gossip or back biting from your lack of knowledge. So let me get this straight now not only is he to apologize to your satisfaction and terms here ,for his own self ,but also now for someone else as well. Do you hold yourself to the same standard ? Have you come here and listed everyone you have ever wronged ,every sin are they listed? and do you apologize for others as well?
It seems to me that these guys don`t want to face people without protected status of leader.
I think you hit the nail on the head with that remark...These splinter group leaders are in their element when they are pontificating, unchallenged...to their "followers". They will not stand on equal ground and dialogue with us on a level playing field. The arrogant position of "I'm right and you're not, I'm godly and you're not, I talk, you listen" was instilled in them years ago by Wierwille. They have learned how to make a living out of it...
...Talking to us here would be counterproductive to their bottom line...If Vinny were to post here, you can bet his followers would be popping in and reading every bit of it...including some things perhaps that Vinny would prefer them not to read...
Geez! A lot (not all) of youz guyz are so friggin lame!I see the same daggone subjects, arguments, complaints, by The Same People that I saw here years ago! I think that many of you have spent "more years in TWI" on the Internet than you actually spent when actually involved in TWI! There really is Life outside of TWI. You really need to fuggedaboudit (as Tony Soprano would say) and and check out LIFE on the OUTSIDE. Life out here is GREAT! I go to a lovely church for instance, and what I learned in TWI that was good, I share with others. And what I learn anew, I process and either utilize or discard. What is so hard about simply taking the good that we learned and discarding te bad and simply getting on with life? If any of you are in my age group (mid fifties), we don't have that many years left! Move with the good, jettison the bad! And be happy. Happy is GOOD not happy is BAD.
You may roast me for this, but this is all I have to say in this thread. I love you and want you to be happy and to move on. Bye.
Ah, another drive-by prophet telling us what we need to do, and then (typically) announcing that he will not discuss his position.
I happen to know that several of the more vocal posters on this thread on both sides of the discussion have full, rich and interesting lives "on the outside" as you put it, and would venture to say that none of the participants spend all, or even a majority of their time thinking about TWI.
If you don't think it's worth discussing, then take your own advice and move on.
I think you hit the nail on the head with that remark...These splinter group leaders are in their element when they are pontificating, unchallenged...to their "followers". They will not stand on equal ground and dialogue with us on a level playing field. The arrogant position of "I'm right and you're not, I'm godly and you're not, I talk, you listen" was instilled in them years ago by Wierwille. They have learned how to make a living out of it...
...Talking to us here would be counterproductive to their bottom line...If Vinny were to post here, you can bet his followers would be popping in and reading every bit of it...including some things perhaps that Vinny would prefer them not to read...
None of the ones I know are particularly comfortable being on level ground with the unwashed masses, even though they think they're being "mighty white". There is also the problem with spontaneity. The ones I know don't do that well and it takes being able to think on your feet well in order to have time for other things. They also lack the gift (at least I think it is) of brevity. I can't even read their stuff anymore because of how long-winded they all are.
and from reading his little bio on his site, I would have to come to the same conclusion..
now.. I'm not "da man with a *ministry* " here.. I'm not trying to sell anything.. not looking for followers, people to send tapes or cds to, take my classes, etc. etc.. why shoud *I* have to chase HIM down?
wouldn't one think that "da man with a *ministry*" would not want to leave that kind of doubt in people's minds?
Dove, your post and your accusations make absolutely no sense. Try reading WHAT I said IN the context written and comment on that instead of parsing sentences together made to different posters about different subjects in order to manufacture something I never said nor intended in order to attack me. Please, it is only honest.
and these guys think they are actually doing people a FAVOR opening up another shop, and just leaving the old baggage behind?
sorry.. it's just not that easy..
do they REALLY think they can circumvent a real *show* of public repentance and HARD WORK?
Or do they think just "moving da word" "covers" a multitude of sins?
Yeah.. that's it. That makes everything *OK*.. I guess.
You know Hap? I think that is EXACTLY what happens when nobody holds these guys accountable. When everybody licks up what the leader is currently dishing out, when everyone is told that to hold the leader accountable is to be considered back biting, or negative, or breaking lock box....when people pretend that it is all ok because it is in the past......etc Why WOULD one feel the need for genuine sorrow, for repentance,for making amends...to actually make the necessary changes in ones life to become spiritual??
Without genuine repentance the offender himself will never grow beyond where he is. It isn`t doing these fellow any favors to with hold the necessary criticism for their short comings as ministers.
Tzaia, you are right. I think that sometimes, people can be so entrenched in the same thought processes that they have had for the last 30 years, surrounded by people that think and act just like they do, that they are truly incapable of conversation, discussion of ideas, substantiating their beliefs.
I think that these guys really are uncomfortable talking to anyone that doesn`t readily agree with them...so one must therefor assigne spiritually dark reasons to substantiate ones lack of comfort in a given area.
Geez! A lot (not all) of youz guyz are so friggin lame! I see the same daggone subjects, arguments, complaints, by The Same People that I saw here years ago! I think that many of you have spent "more years in TWI" on the Internet than you actually spent when actually involved in TWI! There really is Life outside of TWI. You really need to fuggedaboudit (as Tony Soprano would say) and and check out LIFE on the OUTSIDE. Life out here is GREAT! I go to a lovely church for instance, and what I learned in TWI that was good, I share with others. And what I learn anew, I process and either utilize or discard. What is so hard about simply taking the good that we learned and discarding te bad and simply getting on with life? If any of you are in my age group (mid fifties), we don't have that many years left! Move with the good, jettison the bad! And be happy. Happy is GOOD not happy is BAD.
You may roast me for this, but this is all I have to say in this thread. I love you and want you to be happy and to move on. Bye.
Yup ClayJay, and this particular oh so lame poster could jest FEEL da love oozing out of your post doncha know? :))
Seriousl friend....Do you really need a list of the personal accomplishments and activities of each poster post twi, the education, the children raised, their years in, verses their years of posting in greasepot in order to determine whether they have anything of importance or value to contribute here? Do you have a formula for figuring out what is of profit and what is not?? Man, I`ll bet the moderators on gs could sure use your help straining out all of the extraneous whining and complaints ....lol..Or how about a daily schedule to determine if we spend to much time here....
Theres an idea for a new forum a I guess... Who`s lame and who`s not :)
Hi my name is Cathy and I am not lame. I believe that I am worthy to post here because.........
Clay, if you ever return to read this, it isn`t a roast, just a light hearted poke at you for presuming to know us, whether or not we have beneficial lives, what is best for us, what is profitable to do with our own time and for our own enrichment :)
what I've observed among some of these offshoot "leaders".. not all, but several.. they seem to want to live an upper middle class lifestyle with less than high school qualifications..
firstly, i want to apologize for having allowed myself to get "sucked in" to this thread, started by om, with the obnoxious (imho) title and subtitle which baited me into another almost worthless discussion on the merits, or lack thereof, of another run-of-the-mill twi offshoot, led by another ex-twi "clergyman" who has done little, if anything, to improve his credentials as a "legitimate" christian clergyman. vinny has simply, again, imho, continued his "personal ministry" using all his twi monetary and "spiritual" connections, and all the organizational structure education he garnered in twi, to continue to make a good "living", as ham pointed out, in the fringe, right-wing, so-called "christian" educational/outreach movement akin to the basics of twi-like organizational/financial structures......unaccredited by any recognized accreditting agencies of christian or academic "mainstream" accreditdation institutions, and based on the false humility of self-aggrandizing, self-serving, "biographical" data which still acknowledges wierwillian theology and "ministry" as being somehow worthy of respect, recognition, or some kind of worthiness of "christian" respect and accomplishment.
personally, i think this kind of thread belongs in the doctrinal forum, or even more appropriately, in the soap opera forum...........mark clarke has his own website as does vinny......why do greasespotters like om feel it necessary to promote their interests in such phoney "religious leaders" by calling attention to them in a forum that is designed to expose the old and current lies, extortions, and abuses of twi and its various offshoots? is it really in the interest of "first ammendment" freedoms, or their sophomoric dedication to the "greatness" of the freedoms and liberties they scream so loudly about, that this nation espouses?..........is that the purpose of this website?
what is the purpose of a thread like this om, or mark clarke?.........why do you feel it necessary to burden the greasespot with yet another unabashed promo for a former twi "bigshot" who, in your opinion, somehow merits acceptance, approval, or recognition for having "moved on" in a direction that you think is meritorious?..........if you think vinny's church is so "right-on", then just join, or tell us how great you think he is in the doctrinal forum.........this is it for me regarding this discussion.............i have long ago abandoned any notion that folks like vinny, jalvis, clapp, seed, geer, et al, will ever really come clean, or apologize willingly to the hundreds they despitefully used and abused in order to get out of twi and maintain a lifestyle similar to their idol, der victoid...........their rhetoric, and the excuses made for them by the likes of om, mark clarke and others here, are painfully and woefully long overplayed, and disproven, imho.
i have made the mistake of voicing personal issues with folks like vinny here.......i have tried to be open and honest with my feelings about them...........my mistake.............perhaps inappropriate for a forum like this.........but, imho, far less inappropriate than the shameless promotion of "ministries" like vinny's by folks like om, mark clarke and some others, who disguise their personal religious choices under the cloak of "free speech" that they assume is a right granted to them by this website.........
again........if you like vinny and his church..........with promoters like his son sean, a graduate of yet another unaccreditted "bible college" like his father.....or victor paul gluckin, another graduate of the same unaccreditted "christian bible college"..........and defenders of the us constitution like om and others here.......why not post in the doctrinal or soap opera forums????..............as for me...........i'm done with this baiting thread.......and the baiters.......sorry i wasted my time and your's!.........................peace.
what I've observed among some of these offshoot "leaders".. not all, but several.. they seem to want to live an upper middle class lifestyle with less than high school qualifications..
almost like it's an entitlement or something..
I think. . . . . and I may have my "Big Boys" mixed up. . . . but, wasn't Vince was an assistant manager at a MR STEAK. . . Hey, his star was on the rise anyway.
To go from that. . . .to a podunk Ohio based cult . . . . to running his own "Hebraic Roots" church. . . beats flipping burgers I guess.
Kinda makes you wonder about these offshoot guys. They really act like they are doing God a big favor with these off beat little groups. Where else are ex-cult members going to land without them.
A good-solid-sound church with a qualified member of the clergy to help heal. . . . maybe?
I am really sorry that you feel that way about this thread. Even though I figure that much of your assessment of the intention for this thread is probably correct I am thankful that you shared some of your personal issues with Finnigan for all of us to see. I feel strongly that all of former leadership that has been mostly silent for many years were either due to bad motives or being suckered in by platitudes from Geer and others whose motives were to manipulate these well intentioned leadership into silence. And I tend to share the optomism that was so ably stated in this thread of the possibility of former TWI leadership having a change of heart. But my experience in this type of thing often has shown me that my optomism is not the determining factor in the final outcome of any exchange. But I cannot help but look for any exchange that I may be a part of to have (hopefully by the grace of God) some form of good outcome.
I am really sorry that you feel that your sharing was a mistake. For me it seems good to hear how things were for you.
If your regret for sharing is based on your own missgivings I gladly would let you to your considerations and maybe wait for you to willingly spell them out or share some more at your pleasure. But if your regret is because of how folks have reacted to your sharing, I cannot help but consider the possibility that in truth, it is their problem and not yours.
If nothing else, I do not intend to change my mind that your posting was not a waste of my time.
If the mods feel it is appropriate to move this thread they certainly have the ability to do so. I have found their actions to be well thought through.
One of the things that I highly value about this site is the ability to think through and evaluate any post. And whether the poster's motives were to bait and cause to stumble or to simply put something out there for feedback I have at times highly enjoyed the exchanges. Especially as I find new answers to old headaches.
what is the purpose of a thread like this om, or mark clarke?.........why do you feel it necessary to burden the greasespot with yet another unabashed promo for a former twi "bigshot" who, in your opinion, somehow merits acceptance, approval, or recognition for having "moved on" in a direction that you think is meritorious?.......
Probably for the same reason that you post here time and again your personal rants about..... Gee just about everyone. And how you, who somehow escaped and have become the poster boy for how to do it. Yeah we get it you are the man with all the answers, you can enlighten us on how everyone else is doing, all from your keyboard and your 20 year old memories. What's you purpose for burdening us with yet another of your self righteous lectures? Does it still sting that you did not make it in the religious circle and they did?
Dove, your post and your accusations make absolutely no sense. Try reading WHAT I said IN the context written and comment on that instead of parsing sentences together made to different posters about different subjects in order to manufacture something I never said nor intended in order to attack me. Please, it is only honest.
Makes perfect sense You invoke Jesus as some proof you know what you are speaking of yet you admit you don't. Exactly how many hours or years have you followed what VF is doing? And yet unlike Jesus who you seem to wanna hold up as like you , you aren't you have no idea what he is doing. And were you personally involved ? Were you there? By your own admission no. So what gives you the right to speak with any authority? Isn't that your argument or does in only apply one way?
And were you personally involved ? Were you there? By your own admission no. So what gives you the right to speak with any authority? Isn't that your argument or does in only apply one way?
It's quite ironic, I think, how indignant you, yourself, become when people call your attention to your own lack of personal involvement in programs like the Way Corps, WOW and Fellow Laborers. And yet, you insist you know what must have gone on in those programs even though you admit you never participated in those programs or even beyond the local level. Kinda looks like the pot calling the kettle black.
It's quite ironic, I think, how indignant you, yourself, become when people call your attention to your own lack of personal involvement in programs like the Way Corps, WOW and Fellow Laborers. And yet, you insist you know what must have gone on in those programs even though you admit you never participated in those programs or even beyond the local level. Kinda looks like the pot calling the kettle black.
Actually your conclusion is incorrect. But none the less the standard should remain the same for all. These who have invested no time in VF ministry really have nothing to speak of. It's a guess based on a Trinitarians view of the the Way.
i have made the mistake of voicing personal issues with folks like vinny here.......i have tried to be open and honest with my feelings about them...........my mistake.........
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Tzaia
So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?
Mark Clarke
If you read that paragraph in his letter again, you'll see that he was not thankful for the false things that VPW taught or the evils that he did. But if even the worst sinner happens to teach me a few things about the Bible (especially at a time when I had no idea what a sinner he was) I can still take the things he taught me away with me and be thankful for them. Had he never said or done anything right in all that time, he never would have deceived anyone.
No matter how bad VPW was, many of us can still be thankful for having learned those things I highlighted.
In addition to the line that has already been quoted ("I consider myself to have been a part of the problem and deeply regret the many things I did wrong") Vince also said in that letter, "We parted from The Way without bitterness or anger. In the long run, we had thankfulness for the good and repentance for that which we had done wrong. God gave us a clean new start."
Does anyone have evidence that he did not repent? Lack of hearing from him in over 20 years is not evidence, since it is just possible he had no knowledge of how badly he hurt DWBH or others. He doesn't surf the net or read GreaseSpot and would have no knowledge of what's being discussed here were it not for the fact that I emailed him and told him about it. But just as I shouldn't have to defend him, I also shouldn't have to tell him someone has a problem. If DWBH feels he was hurt, does badmouthing him on the internet make it better? Shouldn't we all strive for peace?
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rascal
Mark, I tend to think that (in this case anyway) the terms back biting and gossip seem to only aplicable to that which isn`t flattering to how one personally wishes to view things...no? It is usually used here at gsc as a ball bat to try to shut up the unflattering accounts that give evidence to the real spiritual nature of twi`s leaders.
I have no idea if he has repented or not, (though his silence and lack of apology and seeking to repair the damage speak volumes) but expecting anyone to feel grateful or thankful for the faulty foundations on which twi was built.....(yeah I know folks have painted over the flaws and attempted to patch the cracks with terms like *sound biblical principles* and *the word of God is the will of God*) as far as I can see, are still living the lie promulgated by a man of the flesh, a wolf in sheep`s clothing. The fruit in the lives of those who lived, and those who continue to try to live by these faulty premises show just how spiritually bankrupt the doctrine, (no matter how pretty you dress it up)...still is...
Vince might be a real peach of a guy now, but still.....He KNOWS what went on...yet he still venerates wierwille and twi...He is STILL promoting the lie.
I would think that if one has any character at all, he would be acknowledging the wrongs of his teacher, apologizing for damage inflicted, and start all over again from scratch. NOT trying to hide the truth so that what he personally wishes to believe and promulgate appears to have merit. Until then, as far as I can see....he does not deserve our respect, nor his doctrine consideration, and frankly, as far as I am concerned he is not much better than any of the the other leaders that used the scriptures to steal that which was never theirs to begin with, to excuse them from their spiritual responsibilities, and moral duty, to deny personal responsibility and accountability....no matter how sanitized his version of the so called truth.
Call it like you see it, but me? I see no difference in examining and discussing the heinous crimes of the men who stole and destroyed in God`s name, using scriptures to justify and sanitize their actions in twi and after....and the pharacees, saducees and money lenders that Jesus so despised and who`s practice he publicly vilified in his own time.
If we don`t hold each other accountable when we are wrong, if we cannot count on one another to see and assist when we are unable, how will we ever learn, and grow?
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rascal
This isn`t about taking swipes at VF because he was a big shot...I never knew him, enjoyed the few teachings that I did hear.
Apparently, he knows now that we are here. He by now knows that there are folks here that have a problem with him, with twi based doctrine, with beliefs post twi.
We aren`t a priority, I understand that, people never were in twi. He can label us nameless faceless internet nobodies, thus safely dismissing any responsibility to address issues, examine his actions or God forbid realize that his *answers* may not actually be correct.
But God knows that we are real living breathing souls behind these monitors, pouring out our thoughts and opinions on these pages. If a fellow gave a damn about people or the wrongs of twi, he would be here straightening it out.
No, like most ex twi off shoot leaders, he doesn`t appear to place value or importance in people.
It seems to me that these guys don`t want to face people without protected status of leader. What they teach is of tantamount importance, anything that distracts from that is considered a waste of time....anybody who doesn`t buy it isn`t worth the time. Those that were wounded need to just get over it, shut up, move on etc.
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Ham
at least SOME people in the world are consistent..
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WhiteDove
Indeed ....and that If is a big difference
I'll just add right about here a small fact, Jesus knew the truth about the Pharisees and Sadducees before he opened his mouth and spoke .
Let me bring to memory your own admissions........
And yet you ,unlike Jesus admittedly don't know of what you speak and yet you feel inclined to offer such gossip or back biting from your lack of knowledge. So let me get this straight now not only is he to apologize to your satisfaction and terms here ,for his own self ,but also now for someone else as well. Do you hold yourself to the same standard ? Have you come here and listed everyone you have ever wronged ,every sin are they listed? and do you apologize for others as well?
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think you hit the nail on the head with that remark...These splinter group leaders are in their element when they are pontificating, unchallenged...to their "followers". They will not stand on equal ground and dialogue with us on a level playing field. The arrogant position of "I'm right and you're not, I'm godly and you're not, I talk, you listen" was instilled in them years ago by Wierwille. They have learned how to make a living out of it...
...Talking to us here would be counterproductive to their bottom line...If Vinny were to post here, you can bet his followers would be popping in and reading every bit of it...including some things perhaps that Vinny would prefer them not to read...
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Oakspear
I happen to know that several of the more vocal posters on this thread on both sides of the discussion have full, rich and interesting lives "on the outside" as you put it, and would venture to say that none of the participants spend all, or even a majority of their time thinking about TWI.
If you don't think it's worth discussing, then take your own advice and move on.
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Tzaia
None of the ones I know are particularly comfortable being on level ground with the unwashed masses, even though they think they're being "mighty white". There is also the problem with spontaneity. The ones I know don't do that well and it takes being able to think on your feet well in order to have time for other things. They also lack the gift (at least I think it is) of brevity. I can't even read their stuff anymore because of how long-winded they all are.
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Ham
and from reading his little bio on his site, I would have to come to the same conclusion..
now.. I'm not "da man with a *ministry* " here.. I'm not trying to sell anything.. not looking for followers, people to send tapes or cds to, take my classes, etc. etc.. why shoud *I* have to chase HIM down?
wouldn't one think that "da man with a *ministry*" would not want to leave that kind of doubt in people's minds?
I mean.. it's not MY reputation here..
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Ham
and these guys think they are actually doing people a FAVOR opening up another shop, and just leaving the old baggage behind?
sorry.. it's just not that easy..
do they REALLY think they can circumvent a real *show* of public repentance and HARD WORK?
Or do they think just "moving da word" "covers" a multitude of sins?
Yeah.. that's it. That makes everything *OK*.. I guess.
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rascal
Dove, your post and your accusations make absolutely no sense. Try reading WHAT I said IN the context written and comment on that instead of parsing sentences together made to different posters about different subjects in order to manufacture something I never said nor intended in order to attack me. Please, it is only honest.
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rascal
You know Hap? I think that is EXACTLY what happens when nobody holds these guys accountable. When everybody licks up what the leader is currently dishing out, when everyone is told that to hold the leader accountable is to be considered back biting, or negative, or breaking lock box....when people pretend that it is all ok because it is in the past......etc Why WOULD one feel the need for genuine sorrow, for repentance,for making amends...to actually make the necessary changes in ones life to become spiritual??
Without genuine repentance the offender himself will never grow beyond where he is. It isn`t doing these fellow any favors to with hold the necessary criticism for their short comings as ministers.
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rascal
Tzaia, you are right. I think that sometimes, people can be so entrenched in the same thought processes that they have had for the last 30 years, surrounded by people that think and act just like they do, that they are truly incapable of conversation, discussion of ideas, substantiating their beliefs.
I think that these guys really are uncomfortable talking to anyone that doesn`t readily agree with them...so one must therefor assigne spiritually dark reasons to substantiate ones lack of comfort in a given area.
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rascal
Yup ClayJay, and this particular oh so lame poster could jest FEEL da love oozing out of your post doncha know? :))
Seriousl friend....Do you really need a list of the personal accomplishments and activities of each poster post twi, the education, the children raised, their years in, verses their years of posting in greasepot in order to determine whether they have anything of importance or value to contribute here? Do you have a formula for figuring out what is of profit and what is not?? Man, I`ll bet the moderators on gs could sure use your help straining out all of the extraneous whining and complaints ....lol..Or how about a daily schedule to determine if we spend to much time here....
Theres an idea for a new forum a I guess... Who`s lame and who`s not :)
Hi my name is Cathy and I am not lame. I believe that I am worthy to post here because.........
Clay, if you ever return to read this, it isn`t a roast, just a light hearted poke at you for presuming to know us, whether or not we have beneficial lives, what is best for us, what is profitable to do with our own time and for our own enrichment :)
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Ham
what I've observed among some of these offshoot "leaders".. not all, but several.. they seem to want to live an upper middle class lifestyle with less than high school qualifications..
almost like it's an entitlement or something..
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi greasespotters!
firstly, i want to apologize for having allowed myself to get "sucked in" to this thread, started by om, with the obnoxious (imho) title and subtitle which baited me into another almost worthless discussion on the merits, or lack thereof, of another run-of-the-mill twi offshoot, led by another ex-twi "clergyman" who has done little, if anything, to improve his credentials as a "legitimate" christian clergyman. vinny has simply, again, imho, continued his "personal ministry" using all his twi monetary and "spiritual" connections, and all the organizational structure education he garnered in twi, to continue to make a good "living", as ham pointed out, in the fringe, right-wing, so-called "christian" educational/outreach movement akin to the basics of twi-like organizational/financial structures......unaccredited by any recognized accreditting agencies of christian or academic "mainstream" accreditdation institutions, and based on the false humility of self-aggrandizing, self-serving, "biographical" data which still acknowledges wierwillian theology and "ministry" as being somehow worthy of respect, recognition, or some kind of worthiness of "christian" respect and accomplishment.
personally, i think this kind of thread belongs in the doctrinal forum, or even more appropriately, in the soap opera forum...........mark clarke has his own website as does vinny......why do greasespotters like om feel it necessary to promote their interests in such phoney "religious leaders" by calling attention to them in a forum that is designed to expose the old and current lies, extortions, and abuses of twi and its various offshoots? is it really in the interest of "first ammendment" freedoms, or their sophomoric dedication to the "greatness" of the freedoms and liberties they scream so loudly about, that this nation espouses?..........is that the purpose of this website?
what is the purpose of a thread like this om, or mark clarke?.........why do you feel it necessary to burden the greasespot with yet another unabashed promo for a former twi "bigshot" who, in your opinion, somehow merits acceptance, approval, or recognition for having "moved on" in a direction that you think is meritorious?..........if you think vinny's church is so "right-on", then just join, or tell us how great you think he is in the doctrinal forum.........this is it for me regarding this discussion.............i have long ago abandoned any notion that folks like vinny, jalvis, clapp, seed, geer, et al, will ever really come clean, or apologize willingly to the hundreds they despitefully used and abused in order to get out of twi and maintain a lifestyle similar to their idol, der victoid...........their rhetoric, and the excuses made for them by the likes of om, mark clarke and others here, are painfully and woefully long overplayed, and disproven, imho.
i have made the mistake of voicing personal issues with folks like vinny here.......i have tried to be open and honest with my feelings about them...........my mistake.............perhaps inappropriate for a forum like this.........but, imho, far less inappropriate than the shameless promotion of "ministries" like vinny's by folks like om, mark clarke and some others, who disguise their personal religious choices under the cloak of "free speech" that they assume is a right granted to them by this website.........
again........if you like vinny and his church..........with promoters like his son sean, a graduate of yet another unaccreditted "bible college" like his father.....or victor paul gluckin, another graduate of the same unaccreditted "christian bible college"..........and defenders of the us constitution like om and others here.......why not post in the doctrinal or soap opera forums????..............as for me...........i'm done with this baiting thread.......and the baiters.......sorry i wasted my time and your's!.........................peace.
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geisha779
I think. . . . . and I may have my "Big Boys" mixed up. . . . but, wasn't Vince was an assistant manager at a MR STEAK. . . Hey, his star was on the rise anyway.
To go from that. . . .to a podunk Ohio based cult . . . . to running his own "Hebraic Roots" church. . . beats flipping burgers I guess.
Kinda makes you wonder about these offshoot guys. They really act like they are doing God a big favor with these off beat little groups. Where else are ex-cult members going to land without them.
A good-solid-sound church with a qualified member of the clergy to help heal. . . . maybe?
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JeffSjo
Dear DWBH,
I am really sorry that you feel that way about this thread. Even though I figure that much of your assessment of the intention for this thread is probably correct I am thankful that you shared some of your personal issues with Finnigan for all of us to see. I feel strongly that all of former leadership that has been mostly silent for many years were either due to bad motives or being suckered in by platitudes from Geer and others whose motives were to manipulate these well intentioned leadership into silence. And I tend to share the optomism that was so ably stated in this thread of the possibility of former TWI leadership having a change of heart. But my experience in this type of thing often has shown me that my optomism is not the determining factor in the final outcome of any exchange. But I cannot help but look for any exchange that I may be a part of to have (hopefully by the grace of God) some form of good outcome.
I am really sorry that you feel that your sharing was a mistake. For me it seems good to hear how things were for you.
If your regret for sharing is based on your own missgivings I gladly would let you to your considerations and maybe wait for you to willingly spell them out or share some more at your pleasure. But if your regret is because of how folks have reacted to your sharing, I cannot help but consider the possibility that in truth, it is their problem and not yours.
If nothing else, I do not intend to change my mind that your posting was not a waste of my time.
If the mods feel it is appropriate to move this thread they certainly have the ability to do so. I have found their actions to be well thought through.
One of the things that I highly value about this site is the ability to think through and evaluate any post. And whether the poster's motives were to bait and cause to stumble or to simply put something out there for feedback I have at times highly enjoyed the exchanges. Especially as I find new answers to old headaches.
Take care and God Bless.
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WhiteDove
Probably for the same reason that you post here time and again your personal rants about..... Gee just about everyone. And how you, who somehow escaped and have become the poster boy for how to do it. Yeah we get it you are the man with all the answers, you can enlighten us on how everyone else is doing, all from your keyboard and your 20 year old memories. What's you purpose for burdening us with yet another of your self righteous lectures? Does it still sting that you did not make it in the religious circle and they did?
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WhiteDove
Makes perfect sense You invoke Jesus as some proof you know what you are speaking of yet you admit you don't. Exactly how many hours or years have you followed what VF is doing? And yet unlike Jesus who you seem to wanna hold up as like you , you aren't you have no idea what he is doing. And were you personally involved ? Were you there? By your own admission no. So what gives you the right to speak with any authority? Isn't that your argument or does in only apply one way?
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waysider
It's quite ironic, I think, how indignant you, yourself, become when people call your attention to your own lack of personal involvement in programs like the Way Corps, WOW and Fellow Laborers. And yet, you insist you know what must have gone on in those programs even though you admit you never participated in those programs or even beyond the local level. Kinda looks like the pot calling the kettle black.
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WhiteDove
Actually your conclusion is incorrect. But none the less the standard should remain the same for all. These who have invested no time in VF ministry really have nothing to speak of. It's a guess based on a Trinitarians view of the the Way.
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waysider
Should this same standard apply to those who never experienced communal life in The Way?
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Ham
sorry you think it's a mistake..
we are what we are, friend..
:)
Peace..
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