A1 Human perception and action take place through time, from the past into the future.
A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs.
A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality.
A4 Human action is directed by a complex but finite information-processing system [i.e. the mind] that functions to identity problems and identify solutions to them.
A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist.
A6 Most rewards sought by humans are destroyed when they are used.
A7 Individual and social attributes which determine power are unequally distributed among persons and groups in any society.
So how this relates to the decision to "join" TWI as opposed to other organizations?
1. For most of us the class cost money. The main idea was that while we would pay x amount of dollars, we would quickly recoup the investment through what was learned. (A2)(A3)
2. Manifestations, positive experiences, the tithe, and abundant sharing were "proof" that we were operating what we learned correctly.
3. Levels of involvement would also translate into levels of rewards; now and in the Kingdom.
4. There would be a system of like-minded adherents to keep one focused on the rewards.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of why it was "rational" to belong to such an organization.
tzaia.........very interesting and though-provoking link........i'm still listening and reading.........will get back to you when i've finished ingesting the material and have reflected upon it.........thanks for the info...........peace.
A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs.
A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality.
A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist.
At the beginning, taking the PFAL class (supposedly) provides great rewards at relatively low cost. You get all this knowledge for the low, low, price of $x. Theoretically, one should be able to take that knowledge and put it to use - BUT - it's really not all that easy unless you are attending twig 3x per week and abundant sharing.
If you are attending 3x a week and abundant sharing, you will become a member of the household. Now I used to joke that while some of my fellow wayfers would be sitting in the kitchen with Jesus, my place in paradise would probably be in the outhouse since my involvement was minimal. Your place in the household was in direct proportion to what you were doing in this life to "move the word." The gotcha is that one never really knew what "enough" was.
I would wager that every last one of you who went into some sort of TWI "continuing education" or "service" did so with the "promise" of greater future rewards and more abundant current prosperity, which TWI promised would happen if you applied the advanced "keys" correctly. Moving "the word" in TWI fashion and intensity was the ticket, but there was always that sense of it never being enough to ensure the reward.
Even in the face of glaring contradictory "senses" information, people were very sure that doing all these things was going to provide them with those elusive rewards and those unseen rewards, so they kept on doing it. One of the ways that was done was through minimalizing the effect of "senses" knowledge and capitalizing on information received through the "spiritual realm," which no one wanted to admit they weren't getting.
Then you had to worry about which "spiritual realm" you were partaking in. Since no one really knew the difference, we were to be dependent on those who did. Only those who had risen in the ranks through the giving of money and time (and time devoted to learning the keys) were thought to be able to accurately discern, thereby providing a level of mediation between this world and the spiritual world. People wanted to accurately discern and perhaps mediate themselves, so they continued in this quest by giving more time and more money, thereby earning their way to that position.
The only person who wasn't tied into this system of rewards was the founder and his immediate posse. He set himself up as this all-knowing guy and got a fair amount of people convinced that he was the one with all the information necessary to get the special rewards that weren't available to the mainstream Christian.
So, while many things that happened in TWI assaulted your senses world sensibilities, the notion that all this was operating in the spiritual realm beyond your understanding seemed rational in the TWI setting.
A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs.
A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality.
A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist.
. . .
I would wager that every last one of you who went into some sort of TWI "continuing education" or "service" did so with the "promise" of greater future rewards and more abundant current prosperity, which TWI promised would happen if you applied the advanced "keys" correctly. Moving "the word" in TWI fashion and intensity was the ticket, but there was always that sense of it never being enough to ensure the reward.
. . .
"future rewards" could include seeing loved ones at "the gathering", "current prosperity" could include health and wealth for those around you. It was a means to change the world in a way that nobody else could.
"future rewards" could include seeing loved ones at "the gathering", "current prosperity" could include health and wealth for those around you. It was a means to change the world in a way that nobody else could.
Exactly. The offering was "unique" through the compensator, who was VPW and his teaching.
In addition, I've often wondered to what degree do people in cults suffer from obsessive compulsive tendencies? In other words, once we/they find something interesting to them, they find it difficult to disengage and move on to the next topic? I think I lean in this direction sometimes.
There were a lot of smart people who bought into it...nevertheless, it was a dumb mistake...
...many of us were hippies who were smoking dope and dropping acid on a regular basis...idealistic, looking for alternative answers, naive, MARKS!...We wanted something better and there were people who saw this and took advantage of it...Wierwille saw the potential and went for it...we fell for it.
There were a lot of smart people who bought into it...nevertheless, it was a dumb mistake...
I don't think this choice is necessarily about smart people/dumb mistake. It seemed like a no-brainer when given the promise of greater future rewards and limitless prosperity. The dumb part enters in when people continued to believe the theology long past the point of receiving any "return on investment."
I think one of the reasons so many of us bought it was due to our age at enlistment time. Many of us were in a late adolescnt developmental stage, not entirely adult, willing to take risks that a more mature individual might not. How many of us got involved in our late teens, early twenties?
My wow team of twelve was sent to a college area, with housing boundaries, to live in the college area. Kids, Kids, Kids everywhere we went. We held many public ex and classes at the college too. They were our target.
I think one of the reasons so many of us bought it was due to our age at enlistment time. Many of us were in a late adolescnt developmental stage, not entirely adult, willing to take risks that a more mature individual might not. How many of us got involved in our late teens, early twenties?
Don't forget the sheer power of the need to rebel as most of us were at that stage too where we were doing anything we could to rebel against our parents and society at large.
Don't forget the sheer power of the need to rebel as most of us were at that stage too where we were doing anything we could to rebel against our parents and society at large.
Actually, I was past the point of rebellion. Sure my mother warned me about TWI, but not because it was a cult, but more because it was Christianity beyond C & E involvement and she was against Christianity, but that never stopped me, nor did it push me towards involvement. Also, I didn't feel I was rebelling against society, rather I was working to build a better society for Christians to live in.
i was 18. i had a screwed up abusive past. i always wanted a good, decent, kind father. i happened to have a longing to help others/save the world (nunhood and peace corps were in my thinking)
staying..... hmmmm.... addictive type? already entrenched? my identity wrapped up in it? god would not look favorably on me?
i don't know really. early 30s when i left
there was this one meeting -- a lightbulb kind of went off. was at a hush-hush corps meeting listening to chris geer's tape. i started taking all the blame of "the ministry's downfall" or something and publicly started to admit my shame
joe fair and ralph graham sorta' yelled at me and i was -- hallelujah people -- set free
it felt good to realize i was not to blame. shame and blame were deeply a part of me
still thinking and will let you know what else i come up with
i've never really been able to distinguish between my childhood experiences and way experiences -- i guess because all of it is me.... i do think the childhood did lead me to be a wayfer
in any case, i would like to dedicate this to my father and my father in the word
I've seen some of the younger GSers talk about how we old timers were just into sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Well, yeah, but there was a lot more to it than that.
Rewind to the world some of us were living in as a prelude to our twi involvement:
Mid-1960s: My church let me down. When I wanted answers, the minister didn't give them. Church was a social event, but not much more. I pondered whether there was a God and, if there was, if He cared about us individually. Did He see me? Was I even a tiny blip on His divine radar screen? I sorta thought I wasn't.
1964: I was 17, a freshman in college, when my president was shot and killed. This was something I never expected to see in my lifetime. Assassinations were ancient history...or so I thought. Bob Dylan was singing "The Times They Are a-Changing." He sang a mouthful.
1964-66: I watched my friends go off to Vietnam, wondering if I'd ever see them again. The war was in my living room every night on the evening news. Too many body bags came back, and too many young men who, although alive, would never be the same. My soon-to-be husband was one of these casualties.
Summer of love, 1967: Went to California to "get my head together" and found out people's heads were just as screwed up on the West Coast as mine was. :huh: I saw police beating peaceful antiwar protestors bloody and couldn't believe this was happening in America. At the same time, I found out not all the leaders of the antiestablishment were an improvement over those they opposed. It was also the summer of my disillusionment. Idealism had died, but I got married anyway.
April 4, 1968: Martin Luther King was gunned down in Memphis.
June 5, 1968: I was sitting in my bed watching Bobby Kennedy on television. I was about 3 miles from the hotel where he'd been speaking when Sirhan Sirhan murdered him.
1969: I met some hippie Christians in LA, and my doubting-God days were over. But then my new friends moved away one by one. Later that year, I had my heart broken by one of the hippie Christians--ironically, the very one who knocked on my door saying, "God told me you needed help," just minutes after I cried out silently to God for help. Enter personal prophecy. My skepticism toward God was still gone, but my skepticism toward people speaking for God skyrocketed.
1970: I thought partying would fill the hole. It didn't. I also learned how much cleverness and wisdom my partying friends lost when I viewed them through sober/straight eyes.
1971-72: I tried a few churches and home fellowships. Still, no answers that really reached my heart. I knew God was real. I knew He saw me. I wanted to know how to "see" Him.
The times they were a-changing, alright. It was like trying to swim in a whirlpool. I wanted answers.
I was attending a church for the last time, to say goodbye to the people there I'd grown fond of. One of my friends who'd been witnessed to by some twi people handed me a note, saying, "This fellowship is near your house. Maybe you'll want to check it out. I did.
I wasn't looking for a family. I had a great family already. I wasn't looking for friends. I had great friends. I wasn't looking for a boyfriend or financial prosperity or a reason to feel superior to anyone else. I was looking for answers about God. I was looking for something stable in this crazy, upside-down world I'd been living in.
So that's why I bought it. If anyone else had been teaching the Bible (not fire and brimstone or the other end of the churchy spectrum) in my vicinity, perhaps I would have "bought" some other ministry or organization. But twi was where I ended up for the next 16 or 17 years...the good of it, the bad of it, and the ugly of it.
In the long run, things didn't turn out in twi world as I'd expected, and when I left HQ in '86 and drifted completely away over the next couple years, I thought, "Here we go a freekin-gain. Another let-down." Then it hit me. It wasn't twi that had spoken to my heart. It wasn't twi that had rescued me from this tumultuous world. It was God. Thanks to Him, I'm still here, and I'm not a grease spot. :P
Like you, I WANTED Jesus. I was not into it for future stuff in heaven or money now. I wanted Jesus. I wanted the power of God in my life and to have a relationship with God.
Like you, I WANTED Jesus. I was not into it for future stuff in heaven or money now. I wanted Jesus. I wanted the power of God in my life and to have a relationship with God.
And TWI promised you would have that in a way that you could not experience elsewhere. What you needed to do to receive these rewards was a small price (at the time) for what was promised in the future.
Would you not gain greater rewards for your "special" gift?
I'm just trying to tell you that it was a very rational decision based on the kinds of rewards promised. VPW's grace theology was perfect for the time.
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oldiesman
Sounds rational. :)
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Tzaia
Stark and Bainbridge started with 7 axioms:
So how this relates to the decision to "join" TWI as opposed to other organizations?
1. For most of us the class cost money. The main idea was that while we would pay x amount of dollars, we would quickly recoup the investment through what was learned. (A2)(A3)
2. Manifestations, positive experiences, the tithe, and abundant sharing were "proof" that we were operating what we learned correctly.
3. Levels of involvement would also translate into levels of rewards; now and in the Kingdom.
4. There would be a system of like-minded adherents to keep one focused on the rewards.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of why it was "rational" to belong to such an organization.
Here's a link to one of the theorists: http://mysite.verizon.net/wsbainbridge/dl/sacal.htm
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DontWorryBeHappy
tzaia.........very interesting and though-provoking link........i'm still listening and reading.........will get back to you when i've finished ingesting the material and have reflected upon it.........thanks for the info...........peace.
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Tzaia
At the beginning, taking the PFAL class (supposedly) provides great rewards at relatively low cost. You get all this knowledge for the low, low, price of $x. Theoretically, one should be able to take that knowledge and put it to use - BUT - it's really not all that easy unless you are attending twig 3x per week and abundant sharing.
If you are attending 3x a week and abundant sharing, you will become a member of the household. Now I used to joke that while some of my fellow wayfers would be sitting in the kitchen with Jesus, my place in paradise would probably be in the outhouse since my involvement was minimal. Your place in the household was in direct proportion to what you were doing in this life to "move the word." The gotcha is that one never really knew what "enough" was.
I would wager that every last one of you who went into some sort of TWI "continuing education" or "service" did so with the "promise" of greater future rewards and more abundant current prosperity, which TWI promised would happen if you applied the advanced "keys" correctly. Moving "the word" in TWI fashion and intensity was the ticket, but there was always that sense of it never being enough to ensure the reward.
Even in the face of glaring contradictory "senses" information, people were very sure that doing all these things was going to provide them with those elusive rewards and those unseen rewards, so they kept on doing it. One of the ways that was done was through minimalizing the effect of "senses" knowledge and capitalizing on information received through the "spiritual realm," which no one wanted to admit they weren't getting.
Then you had to worry about which "spiritual realm" you were partaking in. Since no one really knew the difference, we were to be dependent on those who did. Only those who had risen in the ranks through the giving of money and time (and time devoted to learning the keys) were thought to be able to accurately discern, thereby providing a level of mediation between this world and the spiritual world. People wanted to accurately discern and perhaps mediate themselves, so they continued in this quest by giving more time and more money, thereby earning their way to that position.
The only person who wasn't tied into this system of rewards was the founder and his immediate posse. He set himself up as this all-knowing guy and got a fair amount of people convinced that he was the one with all the information necessary to get the special rewards that weren't available to the mainstream Christian.
So, while many things that happened in TWI assaulted your senses world sensibilities, the notion that all this was operating in the spiritual realm beyond your understanding seemed rational in the TWI setting.
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Bolshevik
"future rewards" could include seeing loved ones at "the gathering", "current prosperity" could include health and wealth for those around you. It was a means to change the world in a way that nobody else could.
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Tzaia
Exactly. The offering was "unique" through the compensator, who was VPW and his teaching.
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WOG
Great topic, Tazia.
In addition, I've often wondered to what degree do people in cults suffer from obsessive compulsive tendencies? In other words, once we/they find something interesting to them, they find it difficult to disengage and move on to the next topic? I think I lean in this direction sometimes.
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chockfull
Why we bought it?
We were young, impressionable, seeking good, and we didn't listen to our parents.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Why we bought it?
There were a lot of smart people who bought into it...nevertheless, it was a dumb mistake...
...many of us were hippies who were smoking dope and dropping acid on a regular basis...idealistic, looking for alternative answers, naive, MARKS!...We wanted something better and there were people who saw this and took advantage of it...Wierwille saw the potential and went for it...we fell for it.
suckers?...you bet!
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Tzaia
I don't think this choice is necessarily about smart people/dumb mistake. It seemed like a no-brainer when given the promise of greater future rewards and limitless prosperity. The dumb part enters in when people continued to believe the theology long past the point of receiving any "return on investment."
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Bramble
I think one of the reasons so many of us bought it was due to our age at enlistment time. Many of us were in a late adolescnt developmental stage, not entirely adult, willing to take risks that a more mature individual might not. How many of us got involved in our late teens, early twenties?
My wow team of twelve was sent to a college area, with housing boundaries, to live in the college area. Kids, Kids, Kids everywhere we went. We held many public ex and classes at the college too. They were our target.
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waysider
I agree. I was 21.
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leafytwiglet
Don't forget the sheer power of the need to rebel as most of us were at that stage too where we were doing anything we could to rebel against our parents and society at large.
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Tzaia
Actually, I was past the point of rebellion. Sure my mother warned me about TWI, but not because it was a cult, but more because it was Christianity beyond C & E involvement and she was against Christianity, but that never stopped me, nor did it push me towards involvement. Also, I didn't feel I was rebelling against society, rather I was working to build a better society for Christians to live in.
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excathedra
i was 18. i had a screwed up abusive past. i always wanted a good, decent, kind father. i happened to have a longing to help others/save the world (nunhood and peace corps were in my thinking)
staying..... hmmmm.... addictive type? already entrenched? my identity wrapped up in it? god would not look favorably on me?
i don't know really. early 30s when i left
there was this one meeting -- a lightbulb kind of went off. was at a hush-hush corps meeting listening to chris geer's tape. i started taking all the blame of "the ministry's downfall" or something and publicly started to admit my shame
joe fair and ralph graham sorta' yelled at me and i was -- hallelujah people -- set free
it felt good to realize i was not to blame. shame and blame were deeply a part of me
still thinking and will let you know what else i come up with
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excathedra
all i saw was glory ?
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excathedra
i've never really been able to distinguish between my childhood experiences and way experiences -- i guess because all of it is me.... i do think the childhood did lead me to be a wayfer
in any case, i would like to dedicate this to my father and my father in the word
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBFSMna9KPY
:)
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excathedra
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waysider
Wow!!!
All we saw was glory.
What a great tune, excie.
It speaks loudly to what we "thought" we were seeing.
Thanks!
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Linda Z
I've seen some of the younger GSers talk about how we old timers were just into sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Well, yeah, but there was a lot more to it than that.
Rewind to the world some of us were living in as a prelude to our twi involvement:
Mid-1960s: My church let me down. When I wanted answers, the minister didn't give them. Church was a social event, but not much more. I pondered whether there was a God and, if there was, if He cared about us individually. Did He see me? Was I even a tiny blip on His divine radar screen? I sorta thought I wasn't.
1964: I was 17, a freshman in college, when my president was shot and killed. This was something I never expected to see in my lifetime. Assassinations were ancient history...or so I thought. Bob Dylan was singing "The Times They Are a-Changing." He sang a mouthful.
1964-66: I watched my friends go off to Vietnam, wondering if I'd ever see them again. The war was in my living room every night on the evening news. Too many body bags came back, and too many young men who, although alive, would never be the same. My soon-to-be husband was one of these casualties.
Summer of love, 1967: Went to California to "get my head together" and found out people's heads were just as screwed up on the West Coast as mine was. :huh: I saw police beating peaceful antiwar protestors bloody and couldn't believe this was happening in America. At the same time, I found out not all the leaders of the antiestablishment were an improvement over those they opposed. It was also the summer of my disillusionment. Idealism had died, but I got married anyway.
April 4, 1968: Martin Luther King was gunned down in Memphis.
June 5, 1968: I was sitting in my bed watching Bobby Kennedy on television. I was about 3 miles from the hotel where he'd been speaking when Sirhan Sirhan murdered him.
1969: I met some hippie Christians in LA, and my doubting-God days were over. But then my new friends moved away one by one. Later that year, I had my heart broken by one of the hippie Christians--ironically, the very one who knocked on my door saying, "God told me you needed help," just minutes after I cried out silently to God for help. Enter personal prophecy. My skepticism toward God was still gone, but my skepticism toward people speaking for God skyrocketed.
1970: I thought partying would fill the hole. It didn't. I also learned how much cleverness and wisdom my partying friends lost when I viewed them through sober/straight eyes.
1971-72: I tried a few churches and home fellowships. Still, no answers that really reached my heart. I knew God was real. I knew He saw me. I wanted to know how to "see" Him.
The times they were a-changing, alright. It was like trying to swim in a whirlpool. I wanted answers.
I was attending a church for the last time, to say goodbye to the people there I'd grown fond of. One of my friends who'd been witnessed to by some twi people handed me a note, saying, "This fellowship is near your house. Maybe you'll want to check it out. I did.
I wasn't looking for a family. I had a great family already. I wasn't looking for friends. I had great friends. I wasn't looking for a boyfriend or financial prosperity or a reason to feel superior to anyone else. I was looking for answers about God. I was looking for something stable in this crazy, upside-down world I'd been living in.
So that's why I bought it. If anyone else had been teaching the Bible (not fire and brimstone or the other end of the churchy spectrum) in my vicinity, perhaps I would have "bought" some other ministry or organization. But twi was where I ended up for the next 16 or 17 years...the good of it, the bad of it, and the ugly of it.
In the long run, things didn't turn out in twi world as I'd expected, and when I left HQ in '86 and drifted completely away over the next couple years, I thought, "Here we go a freekin-gain. Another let-down." Then it hit me. It wasn't twi that had spoken to my heart. It wasn't twi that had rescued me from this tumultuous world. It was God. Thanks to Him, I'm still here, and I'm not a grease spot. :P
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Dot Matrix
Linda- GREAT story
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Dot Matrix
Like you, I WANTED Jesus. I was not into it for future stuff in heaven or money now. I wanted Jesus. I wanted the power of God in my life and to have a relationship with God.
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Tzaia
And TWI promised you would have that in a way that you could not experience elsewhere. What you needed to do to receive these rewards was a small price (at the time) for what was promised in the future.
Would you not gain greater rewards for your "special" gift?
I'm just trying to tell you that it was a very rational decision based on the kinds of rewards promised. VPW's grace theology was perfect for the time.
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excathedra
thank you linzee. i couldn't agree more, and god and christ are with me to this very second
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